CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: airtrekker5 on December 14, 2010, 05:19:19 PM

Title: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: airtrekker5 on December 14, 2010, 05:19:19 PM
What did CAP wear before BDUs? Before that?

There is rumor that we won't be switching to ABUs. Is this true?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Pylon on December 14, 2010, 05:21:33 PM
CAP wore the same uniform the Air Force did before BDUs:  the solid green jungle fatigues.  If I recall correctly, they were phased out for good around when I joined in the 1996 timeframe.


The ABUs transition is at this point nothing more than a rumor.  It may happen, it may not.  What can be said with a degree of certitude is that the ABU transition isn't going to happen this month, and that you're not going to make a bad investment by buying a new set of BDUs.   CAP usually gives members months and sometimes years to continue wearing uniform combinations that are phased out to ensure members have plenty of time to plan the transition.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 05:27:26 PM
I can't remember when USAF changed to the BDU but it was well before CAP did. Don't worry, there is plenty of time before we change if we do. Don't worry about it. Plenty of time to go. I wouldn't rush out and get anything, the BDU is here for atleast another year.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DBlair on December 14, 2010, 05:35:45 PM
What did CAP wear before BDUs? Before that?

We used to wear solid olive green fatigues, known as the "pickle suit" to many of us. They were phased out by the early 1990s, but were allowed to be worn for a few more years until around mid-1990s. Ah, the memories.

For a short period of time, the Vietnam "tiger stripe" jungle uniform (with slanted pockets) was also authorized as an additional uniform during the early 1990s.


OD Fatigues (worn tucked in or out):
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_04_2010/post-11058-1271720016.jpg)

(Obviously, without the belt, badge, etc.)
(http://tsgtmackey.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/sac-sateen-fatigues3.jpg.w300h396.jpg)

A CAP Example:
(http://www.armedforceshistory.org/img006.jpg)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Ned on December 14, 2010, 05:56:44 PM
As it turns out, just last week I was speaking with the CAP-USAF commander on this very issue.  I was reminding him that BDU availability and pricing were becoming significant issues for the CP, and seeking his insight as to when the ABU might be released for CAP.

He told me that the issue is at the Air Staff level; that the USAF is committed to making the ABU available to CAP, and that the sole issue was ensuring that the USAF needs are fully supplied before making the ABU available for CAP use.

He indicated that he would ping it up through the chain to see if there had been any changes.


Ned Lee
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DBlair on December 14, 2010, 06:26:49 PM
That is great to hear, hope it all works out.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: BradM on December 14, 2010, 06:52:58 PM

He told me that the issue is at the Air Staff level; that the USAF is committed to making the ABU available to CAP, and that the sole issue was ensuring that the USAF needs are fully supplied before making the ABU available for CAP use.

When I went to March ARB (two times) they had plenty of ABUs plus online uniform sites like ePropper.com has them for sale. It doesnt seem to me there is a shortage of ABUs.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 07:09:32 PM
Out of curiosity does anyone know what color of nametapes will be used?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 14, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
When I went to March ARB (two times) they had plenty of ABUs plus online uniform sites like ePropper.com has them for sale. It doesnt seem to me there is a shortage of ABUs.
Has nothing to do with "shortage", it's a matter of Air Force needs being met first (as it should be). The needs of active, Guard, and Reserve airmen come first.

As a side note, shortages can be more local. Just because your local uniform store has plenty doesn't mean another one doesn't. Online sources are irrelevant when it comes to military uniform issue. The Air Force can't and won't tell airman "Oh, not enough here? You can get them online."

On another note, I hope they look OK when they get here, and don't have the current blue tags on them. I Vanguard needs to recoup costs, let them take it out of some of their "donation" money.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: spacecommand on December 14, 2010, 08:31:43 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say, white text on ultramarine blue.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 08:35:43 PM
Take a look at these proposals, which one looks better, and which one look flat awkward?
[img width= height= alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=327[/img]

[img width= height= alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=328[/img]
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 14, 2010, 08:37:06 PM
To be perfectly honest, the blue patches look better. I don't like that shade of brown on the first one.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 08:41:53 PM
To be perfectly honest, the blue patches look better. I don't like that shade of brown on the first one.

I would definitely have to agree. I saw the original post with these proposals and thought of the same thing. My only curiosity is what if they used a gray instead of one with a brownish tint?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Tim Medeiros on December 14, 2010, 08:43:46 PM
Personally, I'm not too concerned about CAP getting ABUs, since I'll be wearing them within a week of 1 Feb anyway.  It is however good to know that progress is being made on its availability to CAP.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 08:52:10 PM
I have a concern about it because we have cadets who want into it really badly and they want to know when they will have them, and I keep telling them give it some time. I also tell them they will have to buy them themselves if they want them anyways so don't be in a massive rush, but go ahead and start saving up for them if you want.

The other concern is surplus is getting thin. There used to be a wealth of uniforms for free for the cadets, and they were in very good shape, most of them now are rather worn or are already needing "DXed" (trashed). Even those that some of the cadets go to get from a surplus store are in bad shape or if they get new ones aren't that good of material and are poorly constructed.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 14, 2010, 09:01:28 PM
My only curiosity is what if they used a gray instead of one with a brownish tint?
The tapes were green, they've faded due to washing and use.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: SARDOC on December 14, 2010, 09:03:07 PM
I'm curious about the Supply issue concerning the ABU's.  Correct me if I'm wrong but our members don't go through Air Force channels to get them...so I don't understand how we would impact the Air Force's ability to issue to their folks. 

My only concern is sometimes we travel to the local Air Force Base to the "Airman's Attic" to purchase thrift uniforms for cadets and senior members who want them and even their BDU's are becoming scarce....ABU's are becoming common in the thrift store.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 14, 2010, 09:14:04 PM
I'm curious about the Supply issue concerning the ABU's.  Correct me if I'm wrong but our members don't go through Air Force channels to get them...so I don't understand how we would impact the Air Force's ability to issue to their folks. 

My only concern is sometimes we travel to the local Air Force Base to the "Airman's Attic" to purchase thrift uniforms for cadets and senior members who want them and even their BDU's are becoming scarce....ABU's are becoming common in the thrift store.
CAP members are allowed to purchase uniform items from MCSS and such on base.

Personally, I don't think THAT many members would be purchasing ABU uniforms to the point it would interfere with the USAF supply.
However comma I understand why the Air Force would say "No" until they have enough- no point opening up the market to others when they are still working the kinks out for AD.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 14, 2010, 09:48:06 PM
You know what? Leave it to Ned Lee to be the first to always give us good usable information. Always there with an answer from the NB and other higher command whenever he can.

Col. Lee, Thank you for what you do for us and CAP.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: RiverAux on December 15, 2010, 04:02:30 AM
I'd trade switching to ABUs for getting rid of the ultramarine/white stuff on the BDUs.  If we get ABUs with ultramarine on them I'd just cry.  White on a dark navy blue is what needs to happen -- it way different than what the AF has but actually looks professional instead of idiotic. 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 15, 2010, 04:41:48 AM
I'd trade switching to ABUs for getting rid of the ultramarine/white stuff on the BDUs.  If we get ABUs with ultramarine on them I'd just cry.  White on a dark navy blue is what needs to happen -- it way different than what the AF has but actually looks professional instead of idiotic.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: abdsp51 on December 15, 2010, 05:37:55 AM
Try qmuniforms or any number of places on online.  You can even try Kellac.com and I believe they can set you up with a set custom made.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 15, 2010, 05:42:29 AM
Try qmuniforms or any number of places on online.  You can even try Kellac.com and I believe they can set you up with a set custom made.

 The cheapest place I have found was nametape.com, and they are $5 each and you have to get three minimum, so doing the math that is $30 not including shipping, or shipping back when you get one that is sub par, and you will always get one that is. I know they aren't required, but I love my CIB, I am proud of it like crazy, it marks a huge part of my life.

WRONG POST SORRY.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: GroundHawg on December 15, 2010, 05:44:33 AM
I was issued and wore the pickle suit when I first joined. I bought a set of OD slant pocket fatigues, still the best looking uniform Ive ever worn. I dont mind the BDU, I just wish we could ditch the flag. Honestly, I wish we could go to OD BDU's or OD army cut uniforms... ABU's are garbage. I seriously hate them.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 15, 2010, 05:54:09 AM
Most people in the military think that their field uniform is ugly or trash for whatever reason. I don't like it either, I prefer the look and feel of the ACU, but we are not Army. We are USAF associated, part of keeping that association is wearing a uniform similar to theirs, so that is what we should wear. The thing I hate the most is those gnasty ugly hideous boots,
[img width= height= alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=330[/img]
why not just go with coyote tan?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: abdsp51 on December 15, 2010, 06:05:13 AM
The green boots are a waste of money and time, period they are hideous.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 15, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
As it turns out, just last week I was speaking with the CAP-USAF commander on this very issue.  I was reminding him that BDU availability and pricing were becoming significant issues for the CP, and seeking his insight as to when the ABU might be released for CAP.

Ned Lee

I am afraid of what CAP NHQ and the Air Force will decide (like color of Name Tapes) to make the ABU look "different" so we don't get mistaken for Active Duty Air Force.

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 15, 2010, 04:44:25 PM
Well, the problem is, our nametape color is not ultramarine blue in a berry board kind of way, but rather because we never changed it when the uniform changed back when. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it were due to inventory on hand and not wanting to stock two different kinds at the bookstore when CAP ran it. But it could be because the Air Force said, "no, you keep that". but the pickle suit had the same blue on it.

Though it seems that the only one different anymore, is CAP, among the military themed and/or affiliated cadet programs such as Cadet Alliance, j/ROTC, etc.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: gordo07 on December 15, 2010, 04:52:10 PM
Most people in the military think that their field uniform is ugly or trash for whatever reason. I don't like it either, I prefer the look and feel of the ACU, but we are not Army. We are USAF associated, part of keeping that association is wearing a uniform similar to theirs, so that is what we should wear. The thing I hate the most is those gnasty ugly hideous boots,
[img width= height= alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=330[/img]
why not just go with coyote tan?

Personally I would love it if they let those of us living out in the desert states wear the tan flight suits, definitly cooler (tempreture wise) than the blue or green.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 15, 2010, 06:14:22 PM

...and it was even in the mainstream news recently:

(http://airforcelive.dodlive.mil/files/2010/09/Etchberger.jpg)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 15, 2010, 08:25:49 PM
Well, the problem is, our nametape color is not ultramarine blue in a berry board kind of way, but rather because we never changed it when the uniform changed back when. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it were due to inventory on hand and not wanting to stock two different kinds at the bookstore when CAP ran it. But it could be because the Air Force said, "no, you keep that". but the pickle suit had the same blue on it.

Though it seems that the only one different anymore, is CAP, among the military themed and/or affiliated cadet programs such as Cadet Alliance, j/ROTC, etc.
If we had to have blue tapes, I'd certainly want a Navy or Midnight blue color(Midnight closely matches the blues stripe colors). They would certainly look better than "ultramarine" (Yes, I know, it's a throwback to the old aviation branch colors, but nowadays, it's almost garish).

An unusual, but unique, option would be to go with what the Air Force indicates for ABU's in 36-2903: "Airman Battle Uniform. Tan in color with midnight blue letters embroidered on tape." I'm sure it's a screwup, but it probably wouldn't look half bad (any photoshop experts out there willing to mock it up?). The only thing that would really have to be made would be our badges, everything else is readily available. Yeah, I know having "desert subdued" probably wouldn't fly, but I can dream.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 15, 2010, 08:37:38 PM
Subdued tapes are fine, I have no problem with them.

I dont see a problem with having uniforms that match the Air Force. I never understood the dogma of looking "different" other than the people that wear the uniform out of weight standard or with beards.

There are no inventories of tapes, they are made on a embrodery machine as needed. We can get them in two days.

Is there still a NHQ Appointed Uniform Committee?

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 15, 2010, 09:44:30 PM

I dont see a problem with having uniforms that match the Air Force. I never understood the dogma of looking "different" other than the people that wear the uniform out of weight standard or with beards.



So that we are not mistaken for AD, which could have UCMJ/CoC issues, or worse, would be ripe for abuse. 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: indygreg on December 15, 2010, 09:44:51 PM
I'd trade switching to ABUs for getting rid of the ultramarine/white stuff on the BDUs.  If we get ABUs with ultramarine on them I'd just cry.  White on a dark navy blue is what needs to happen -- it way different than what the AF has but actually looks professional instead of idiotic.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've seen the Ultramarine tapes on ABU's, and honestly, it doesn't look that bad. 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: RiverAux on December 15, 2010, 10:07:00 PM

I dont see a problem with having uniforms that match the Air Force. I never understood the dogma of looking "different" other than the people that wear the uniform out of weight standard or with beards.



So that we are not mistaken for AD, which could have UCMJ/CoC issues, or worse, would be ripe for abuse.
Yeah, our airmen are apparently so dumb that they can't read nametapes and have to depend on the color to make sure they don't mistakenly launch a missile after being ordered to by a CAP officer. 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: davidsinn on December 15, 2010, 11:43:24 PM
Could somebody explain to me how switching to a more expensive uniform that is only worn by one service and is not old enough to hit the surplus market will solve our BDU shortage and pricing issues?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Fly Boy on December 16, 2010, 01:41:05 AM
I'd trade switching to ABUs for getting rid of the ultramarine/white stuff on the BDUs.  If we get ABUs with ultramarine on them I'd just cry.  White on a dark navy blue is what needs to happen -- it way different than what the AF has but actually looks professional instead of idiotic.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've seen the Ultramarine tapes on ABU's, and honestly, it doesn't look that bad. 


(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/flyvboy/untitled.jpg)

(Excuse my poor MS Paint Skills) I agree. It would look better though without the wing and Flag Patches.

Could somebody explain to me how switching to a more expensive uniform that is only worn by one service and is not old enough to hit the surplus market will solve our BDU shortage and pricing issues?

It won't. Alot of people, including myself, would rather hear a definite date on when CAP will transition to the ABU and until that happens we will continue to have threads like these with speculations on how the uniform will look, how to make it look better, and if we should get it at all. And then there is always someone who will say we should go full CAP Distinctive. >:D
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: PHall on December 16, 2010, 02:10:35 AM
Most people in the military think that their field uniform is ugly or trash for whatever reason. I don't like it either, I prefer the look and feel of the ACU, but we are not Army. We are USAF associated, part of keeping that association is wearing a uniform similar to theirs, so that is what we should wear. The thing I hate the most is those gnasty ugly hideous boots,
[img width= height= alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=330[/img]
why not just go with coyote tan?

Personally I would love it if they let those of us living out in the desert states wear the tan flight suits, definitly cooler (tempreture wise) than the blue or green.

The tan flight suits are no cooler then the green ones. It's still Nomex.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 02:55:26 AM

I think I could get behind this....



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5265300404_de80a333f5.jpg)

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: cap235629 on December 16, 2010, 02:56:57 AM

I think I could get behind this....



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5265300404_de80a333f5.jpg)

You would have to be behind it for the tapes to be correct  ;D
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 16, 2010, 02:57:33 AM

I think I could get behind this....



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5265300404_de80a333f5.jpg)

WHY hasn't anyone mocked something like this up before? Looks great.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 16, 2010, 03:01:00 AM
See below for my comment/observation ;D ;D ;D ;)


I think I could get behind this....



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5265300404_de80a333f5.jpg)

You would have to be behind it for the tapes to be correct  ;D

I love the design, though. That would work, eh?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: RiverAux on December 16, 2010, 03:01:25 AM
Actually there are several threads with alternate name tapes that for BDU and ABU that just look fantastic.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: BradM on December 16, 2010, 03:03:49 AM
You would have your name and Civil Air Patrol embroidered right on the shirt? no tapes?

The rank and specialty badges would be on a matching green background?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 16, 2010, 03:06:56 AM
You would have your name and Civil Air Patrol embroidered right on the shirt? no tapes?

The rank and specialty badges would be on a matching green background?
Actually nowadays with new digi-uniforms they have the tape background match the actual uniform.

See here:
(http://www.jrotchq.com/images/army/acu/acu-jrotc-nametape.jpg)

Dunno who Thoele was, but this is a more manageable image. Go JROTC! Heh.

ABUs:
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/small/AIR_FORCE%20ABU_DIGITAL_NT.jpg)

Even the Navy, and you know how slow they are (oh boy, that's gonna cost me ;))
(http://cf.mp-cdn.net/e4/55/dbb425addde7e15bf8e778c47a1c.jpg)

Last but certainly not least, the United States Digital Camouflage pioneers, the Marines!
(http://stores.uniforms-4you.com/catalog/usmcnametapesmall.jpg)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: cap235629 on December 16, 2010, 03:10:15 AM
there was a thread kicking around with a mockup using sage green cloth with white thread. It looked great.  Navy blue looked good too and it served a dual purpose as the rank patches already exist for the blue flight suit/field uniform
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 03:12:57 AM
You would have your name and Civil Air Patrol embroidered right on the shirt? no tapes?

The rank and specialty badges would be on a matching green background?


Well, the "NAME" tape and grade insignia are actually on backgrounds - but ABU pattern.   The "CAP" tape I got lazy on.   And yes, I put 'em on the wrong side.   Sue me.   If it hurts really bad, I'll move 'em around.   :)

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 16, 2010, 03:36:27 AM

I think I could get behind this....



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5265300404_de80a333f5.jpg)

You would have to be behind it for the tapes to be correct  ;D
Rank insignia would need correcting too.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 16, 2010, 03:38:30 AM
Well, the "NAME" tape and grade insignia are actually on backgrounds - but ABU pattern.   The "CAP" tape I got lazy on.   And yes, I put 'em on the wrong side.   Sue me.   If it hurts really bad, I'll move 'em around.   :)
Not hurt over it, I just responded to the earlier post before I read this one.

I like the idea of having distinctive tapes, I just don't want anything that looks like the '70's threw up on it.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 16, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
This whole thing with "so someone doesn't launch a missile with direction from a CAP member" is practically lame ..

In the face of J/ROTC and Cadet Alliance, having uniforms that use the same devices and nearly look the same save for the branch name, as their "parent" organizations.

Yeah, the airmen out there must be selectively dumb. ;)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 16, 2010, 07:22:01 AM
Again, I don't think we need camouflage.

BBDU's for winter and tan BDU's/jumpsuit for summer, with navy-blue insignia.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGrMgFWQCKLLn-yv9yNmAdL4aBUKhPwNQp65IgKwiMdzDbm1Uarw)

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpYlBtxJfAmF72cwKj3z8Td-XLKXGYtRtsfrBhLmwQPAod_wDhzw)

And...another dreaded replacement for the CSU...I mean well, honest!

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5121/5247640302_069850a325_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5087/5246540511_59fb4b1fea_b.jpg)

It looks a cross between the Tony Nelson and Tony McPeak uniforms and an airline pilot...the AF doesn't wear anything like that.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: FARRIER on December 16, 2010, 09:19:25 AM
For the sake of member cost (picking up the surplus through the bases), I hope the ABU's come out sooner than later.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: CAP Producer on December 16, 2010, 11:27:40 AM
Actually Vanguard sold the stock of CSU's to the Chinese.

(http://images.china.cn/images1/200707/397936.jpg)

 :D
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: flyboy53 on December 16, 2010, 12:06:46 PM
What did CAP wear before BDUs? Before that?

We used to wear solid olive green fatigues, known as the "pickle suit" to many of us. They were phased out by the early 1990s, but were allowed to be worn for a few more years until around mid-1990s. Ah, the memories.

For a short period of time, the Vietnam "tiger stripe" jungle uniform (with slanted pockets) was also authorized as an additional uniform during the early 1990s.


OD Fatigues (worn tucked in or out):
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_04_2010/post-11058-1271720016.jpg)

(Obviously, without the belt, badge, etc.)
(http://tsgtmackey.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/sac-sateen-fatigues3.jpg.w300h396.jpg)

A CAP Example:
(http://www.armedforceshistory.org/img006.jpg)

Just as a comment about the AF Security Police example. That blue pistol belt was never worn with the fatigues...a blue ascot was from time to time. SAC had white ones. The blue belt is a dress uniform item worn, as I remember best, with an updated Ike Jacket that had little metal loops at the bottom of the jacket to reinforce the weight of the belt.

In the uniform pictured, the web gear was green. In training it was worn without suspenders. We would secure a poncho with blousing straps in the back beside the canteen. In the field, mine had "H" suspenders with pouches on the front to accomdate M-16 clips or, in my case, a pouch with straps on each side for clips inside and hand grenads outside, secured by the straps. There was a place for a pouch containing a compass and another containing a field dressing.

I never wore the metal badge with the fatigue uniform. I had two different cloth shields at different times, one black on a white background, the other black on an OD green background...which was always interesting because the standard subdued insignia at the time was dark blue on OD green.

One thing I remember best about the OD greens was that they could be starched like cardboard and would actually stand on their own. The perma press ones that you also show could never be starched successfully and wore out pretty quickly. In those fatigue uniforms, we actually got to wear MA-1 flight jackets with either subued or full color insignia. Some would install a fatigue button and hang their badges from it on a leather strap.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on December 16, 2010, 01:49:39 PM
As it turns out, just last week I was speaking with the CAP-USAF commander on this very issue.  I was reminding him that BDU availability and pricing were becoming significant issues for the CP, and seeking his insight as to when the ABU might be released for CAP.

He told me that the issue is at the Air Staff level; that the USAF is committed to making the ABU available to CAP, and that the sole issue was ensuring that the USAF needs are fully supplied before making the ABU available for CAP use.

He indicated that he would ping it up through the chain to see if there had been any changes.


Ned Lee

ACU= Airman Combat Uniform.   I guess CAP's mission could be changed from "Serving Communities" to "Invading Communities" :angel:

This really is time now to seriously considering all CAP "adult members" into a distinctive CAP utility uniform.  The Blue BDU's and flight coveralls seem to fit the bill for this.  As far as the cadets surely they like to play army that's why they joined CAP, BUT again uniform size wise that may be an issue as far as getting it through DOD channels, since utility uniforms are not issued to CAP cadets anyways.

With the upcoming DOD budget constraints I don't see AF looking at CAP uniforms as a priority item anyways  :clap:.   My vote is to keep those BDU's for at least another 5 years and get the senior members out of anything resembling any military service combat wear, to ensure they are very easily identified as "non combatants" at all time.  That's why we are CIVIL Air Patrol :angel: :angel: :angel:
RM   
 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 16, 2010, 01:53:30 PM
ACU= Army Combat Uniform

ABU= Airman Battle Uniform.

ACU= Airman Combat Uniform.
Yeah, no.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 03:09:56 PM

You would have to be behind it for the tapes to be correct  ;D
Rank insignia would need correcting too.


Good Lord, now I know why I have all that stuff sewn on FOR me...   Mea maximua culpa.

Corrected (I hope) version.



(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5010/5265799107_da665604d7.jpg)

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: MIKE on December 16, 2010, 03:49:09 PM
Again, I don't think we need camouflage.

BBDU's for winter and tan BDU's/jumpsuit for summer, with navy-blue insignia.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGrMgFWQCKLLn-yv9yNmAdL4aBUKhPwNQp65IgKwiMdzDbm1Uarw)

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpYlBtxJfAmF72cwKj3z8Td-XLKXGYtRtsfrBhLmwQPAod_wDhzw)

Seasonal utility uniforms?  No thanks.  Pick one.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: tsrup on December 16, 2010, 03:51:23 PM
Again, I don't think we need camouflage.

BBDU's for winter and tan BDU's/jumpsuit for summer, with navy-blue insignia.


Seasonal utility uniforms?  No thanks.  Pick one.

First rule of government spending, why buy one, when you can have two for twice the price.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: MIKE on December 16, 2010, 04:08:08 PM
I actually kinda like the tan idea... Could wear the now much more common tan rough-out boots with them instead of black with the blue uniform.  I still say MultiCam is the way to go though.  >:D

My one gripe with the ABU plan is that I don't think CAP needs two different colors of tapes, badges and grade.  Particularly if it must remain distinctive.  I would keep the white on ultramarine blue... Or phase in white on navy as stocks are depleted to appease the blue uniform wearers.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Eclipse on December 16, 2010, 04:09:15 PM
http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html

More evidence that CAP will never see the ABU.  No one but the Marines seem to be happy with their field uniforms,
change is in the air, again.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Persona non grata on December 16, 2010, 04:32:11 PM
We need to consider the cost of the ABU. Pretty expensive for the average cadet or SM to dish out.  I don't like the blue BDU because it tends to fade and have a more of an uneven worn look among the troops.  I would recommend going back to an OD scheme type BDU.  We wont look out of place carrying the surplus filed gear that most GT folks carry.  We could even say its part of our heritage because we wore that color for years.  No other branches are using it so it would be very distinctive for us.  Keep the ultra blue stuff or switch to dark navy. Whatever works.  It would put all of us in the same field uniform.  We should have  at least a test and evaluation program that utilizes members that live in various climates and work in diffrent mission  settings.

just by two cents......now back to the real mission ;D
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: davidsinn on December 16, 2010, 04:41:35 PM
We need to consider the cost of the ABU. Pretty expensive for the average cadet or SM to dish out.  I don't like the blue BDU because it tends to fade and have a more of an uneven worn look among the troops.  I would recommend going back to an OD scheme type BDU.  We wont look out of place carrying the surplus filed gear that most GT folks carry.  We could even say its part of our heritage because we wore that color for years.  No other branches are using it so it would be very distinctive for us.  Keep the ultra blue stuff or switch to dark navy. Whatever works.  It would put all of us in the same field uniform.  We should have  at least a test and evaluation program that utilizes members that live in various climates and work in diffrent mission  settings.

just by two cents......now back to the real mission ;D

I like that idea. If you get a quality BBDU it won't fade bad. I wear Propper and they hold color well.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 16, 2010, 04:43:35 PM
We already know that no one except for the Marines like their uniforms. Even DOD hates the uniforms, they want everyone in one utility uniform again. I hated the ACU pattern, the layout of the pockets is awesome and the feel of the fabric is sweet too. Digital patterns are just ugly and they don't do the job they are intended to. We are more likely to see everyone going into the multicam, but until that time we just have to grin and bear that we get. I don't like the ABU, but for what it's I would go to it tomorrow because it is our parent branches uniform.

Why do so many of you want to separate CAP from USAF even more by leaving their uniform scheme? If we go into the pickle suit again, no one will associate us with USAF, almost everyone sees the pickle as an old Army uniform, having nothing to do with USAF.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 05:00:41 PM
My one gripe with the ABU plan is that I don't think CAP needs two different colors of tapes, badges and grade.  Particularly if it must remain distinctive.  I would keep the white on ultramarine blue...


That would look like this; personally, I kinda like it!  In fact, I like it better than the white on tiger-pattern.


(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5004/5266044903_69b65495b0.jpg)

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: arBar on December 16, 2010, 05:05:20 PM
Seems to me that people confuse the AF with the Army becuase the ABU is so close to the ACU.  The ABUs are still new enough that the AF doesn't have a distinctive image in the public eye.  Personally I don't care.  I'll wear pink if that's what is decided by NHQ.  Then at least people would know who we are!

Personally I'm favorable to the idea of a CAP distinctive uniform, but that's just me.  And no I don't want pink.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 16, 2010, 05:14:17 PM
And no I don't want pink.

Oh good for a second I was sweating. A CAP distinctive uniform wouldn't be tooooo bad, I just don't want it to be the BBDU, nor do I want us to look like just a club of people that hang out next to an airplane. We have a professional image being in a military style image. Some of you don't think so, but that really does go a long ways with most of our customers. Sure some of them don't like it, but most do. Most areas like our image and like how we do things and feel reassured by what we do and how we do it and how professional we look while doing it. If they didn't, they wouldn't ask for us to help. Recently we were asked here to help on something, we had to turn it down because of the PC act, but we were still asked to come help and when we told them about the PC act, we also told them that some of us would still come out to help in civvies. When we told them that they said never mind. Like it or not, our military image and lineage helps our organization.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 05:42:28 PM

I've never really voiced my opinion on this, but quite frankly, I think that wearing the USAF-style uniform provides two intangible and vital benefits:   It fosters the idea that we are a part of the USAF team (which we are) for both our personnel AND for AD personnel, and it also conveys to the public/served agencies/other Emergency-oriented groups that we do have a legitimate and recognized role in the USAF/ES community.       

As they say, "clothes make the man", and it is entirely appropriate that we dress for our mission - not just in practical terms, but in terms of outside perception as well.       

Why does a security guard dress like a policeman?   To convey the idea that he has a similar role and authority (within the constraints of his job and the law, of course).    I sincerely doubt that a security guard would get the same respect and reaction from a member of the public if he was dressed in a business suit, or jeans and a t-shirt, or even in (just to make the direct comparison) BDUs.    It would be confusing to all who observed it.    Your appearance and other visual cues set the expectations of those you encounter from a psychological perspective.     

In that regard, then, adopting the uniform of your parent organization is certainly appropriate; as is the desire of the parent organization to ensure that there is a clearly defined line (so members of one are not confused with members of the other) while conveying a sense of pride and trust in their Auxiliary.

For these reasons, I am not in favor of switching all members to a completely different uniform; be it tan or OD, or whatever.    While I understand the nature of the arguments that favor this approach, I cannot concur.     
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Persona non grata on December 16, 2010, 05:58:59 PM
In my 19 years of being in CAP no person has ever associated me with being part of the AF while wearing woodland with smurf patches.  I always got from people thinking I was in the ANG or ARMY.  On many occasion  at MacDill AFB I had several airman and navy types ask me what country I was from(thank God Tony having us put US flags on) .   I am 100 percent for the ABU if the cost factor was not an issue.They sizing for the ABU is much more diffrent THAN that the BDU and will be difficult for the growing cadet .   We most definitely need to part of the USAF TEAM if they want us?.  Our uniforms makes us look like we have an identify crisis.  The AF complains about us being distinctive to tell us apart from those that raise theire right hand. 
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 16, 2010, 06:02:45 PM
Just so you know, I did raise my right hand when I gave my application, just as everyone should. There is an oath you know.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: arBar on December 16, 2010, 06:22:42 PM
I hate it when this thing times out.  I had such a nice reply all ready then... anyway...

Personally I'm about the mission, so whether I'm in a military uniform or civies with a white armband, I will accept whatever.

But it seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to 4 possible options:
1. Using all military uniforms
2. Using all CAP distinctive uniforms
3. Using military uniforms (cadets) and distinctive uniforms (Seniors)
4. Leaving things the way they are

#1 is out of our control and unlikely (although I think it makes the most sense).  Any choice, however, will not make everyone happy.  Personally I favor #2, but would find #3 reasonable.  Leaving things the way they are, we'll still be having this discussion 10 years from now.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 16, 2010, 06:54:43 PM
Edit->Select All, Edit->Copy.. or (Command/CTRL-A, Command/CTRL-C) before pressing submit.

..and I've gotten timeouts from this thing in as little as a couple minutes while drafting a three line quick reply.

But also, interesting is that I never loose text, it says it timed out but the text is still in the window. I just press it again and it posts.  None the less, like the adage from the early to mid 80's, Save before you Print. :) Copy before you Post.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: NCRblues on December 16, 2010, 06:59:46 PM
I hate it when this thing times out.  I had such a nice reply all ready then... anyway...

Personally I'm about the mission, so whether I'm in a military uniform or civies with a white armband, I will accept whatever.

But it seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to 4 possible options:
1. Using all military uniforms
2. Using all CAP distinctive uniforms
3. Using military uniforms (cadets) and distinctive uniforms (Seniors)
4. Leaving things the way they are

#1 is out of our control and unlikely (although I think it makes the most sense).  Any choice, however, will not make everyone happy.  Personally I favor #2, but would find #3 reasonable.  Leaving things the way they are, we'll still be having this discussion 10 years from now.

Most of cap does not have these "discussions". We seem to argue ten fold on captalk about uniforms but in general most cap members wear what they can, when they can.... /shrug

If you move away from military uniforms, you will lose a lot of members. If you move to all military, again, lose lots....its a lose lose....keep it the way it is, because lets be frank here..... its not going to change, as much as some of you want it to..... it wont. We will have military style and corporate....done and done....
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: cap235629 on December 16, 2010, 07:06:38 PM
As it turns out, just last week I was speaking with the CAP-USAF commander on this very issue.  I was reminding him that BDU availability and pricing were becoming significant issues for the CP, and seeking his insight as to when the ABU might be released for CAP.

He told me that the issue is at the Air Staff level; that the USAF is committed to making the ABU available to CAP, and that the sole issue was ensuring that the USAF needs are fully supplied before making the ABU available for CAP use.

He indicated that he would ping it up through the chain to see if there had been any changes.


Ned Lee

ACU= Airman Combat Uniform.   I guess CAP's mission could be changed from "Serving Communities" to "Invading Communities" :angel:

This really is time now to seriously considering all CAP "adult members" into a distinctive CAP utility uniform.  The Blue BDU's and flight coveralls seem to fit the bill for this.  As far as the cadets surely they like to play army that's why they joined CAP, BUT again uniform size wise that may be an issue as far as getting it through DOD channels, since utility uniforms are not issued to CAP cadets anyways.

With the upcoming DOD budget constraints I don't see AF looking at CAP uniforms as a priority item anyways  :clap:.   My vote is to keep those BDU's for at least another 5 years and get the senior members out of anything resembling any military service combat wear, to ensure they are very easily identified as "non combatants" at all time.  That's why we are CIVIL Air Patrol :angel: :angel: :angel:
RM   

ABU= Airman Battle Uniform
ACU=Army Combat Uniform
BDU=Battle Dress Uniform
BBDU= BLUE Battle Dress Uniform.

RM your point failed.  Also, we all know that you hate any military looking uniforms.  Join campfire or something........
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Persona non grata on December 16, 2010, 07:37:53 PM
Just so you know, I did raise my right hand when I gave my application, just as everyone should. There is an oath you know.

Excellent ,most CAP units dont use the oath( the flying club types ), In my statement I was referring to those that are on ACTIVE,RESERVE AND GUARD DUTY.   Not the same oath some of us on here have taken Obeying the orders of the President or Governor depending on your govt. service
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JoeTomasone on December 16, 2010, 07:56:34 PM
In my 19 years of being in CAP no person has ever associated me with being part of the AF while wearing woodland with smurf patches.

That wasn't what I said. 

My point was that we are assumed to be (some sort of) team player "in the family", if you will, by wearing a similar uniform.   The distinctiveness prevents us from being assumed to be AD USAF.    To me, it walks that narrow line very well; identifying us as USAF affiliated without being USAF. 

  I always got from people thinking I was in the ANG or ARMY.  On many occasion  at MacDill AFB I had several airman and navy types ask me what country I was from(thank God Tony having us put US flags on) .

 On the military installations I have been on in uniform, I have never been mistaken for USAF either -- but that's not the point.   I also never had anyone question who I was, what I was doing, etc, nor did I receive anything but professionalism and cooperation from those I interacted with.    There is significantly less "Who the heck is THIS?" when you are in a similar uniform.   

I think that what we have now is the best compromise we can make.    IIWIC, however, I would make a few changes; most notably getting rid of the golf shirt and blazer uniform combos.    I would also prefer something in between the Corporate uniform and the whites/greys for those who don't wear blues; something closer to USAF but distinctive enough to make USAF happy.    The Corporate uniform was pretty good (or, should I say, IS pretty good with the grey slides), but once you don the blue coat, it looks too much like the Service Dress.     Not sure what a good alternative to the Corporate Service Coat would be.     I'd also keep the black windbreaker for that combo.

Actually, come to think of it, I'd keep the blazer combination for Sponsor and Patron members who attend a CAP function.

On the utility side, I'd go with whatever USAF is wearing.  I don't care which it is; ABU, MultiCam, whatever, just do it and get on with it.   I'd keep the BBDU (looks kinda official) as the alternative.    However, I would make it conform to the same rules as the USAF -- sewn grade insignia only (no metal) and no boonie hat.   What USAF authorizes for the USAF version, the Corporate version gets as well. 

I'd also REMOVE the reverse US Flag patch, as that is an Army thing.   
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 16, 2010, 08:29:53 PM
RM your point failed.  Also, we all know that you hate any military looking uniforms.

I see RM's point on one hand about combat uniforms.

I do not agree in the slightest with his other stances on getting ALL of CAP's senior membership out of AF-type uniforms and into polos/grey-whites.

I am serious about the blue uniform designs I posted for a CSU replacement (Irish Air Corps, incidentally). With CAP-specific mods, such a design would look good and could not be confused with the AF, nor mall security as with the grey/whites.

However, I fear the nervous Nellies at NHQ are so skittish of anything of any shade of blue that they wouldn't even entertain the suggestion.

If that's the case, at least give some outergarments and accoutrements for the mall cop uniform to make it look better!

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3plCVFeUjRFmtwDi5PBEDGHAiytPSocTD3nNxXaje1gOuZcyH)
Commercially available.

(http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/images/blkmengarrisoncap.jpg)
USPHS pattern, available from Lighthouse.

(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldAcademy/academy3.jpg)
West Point pattern

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYUWpdoi7x8BbOyhx8vn3g6RciyJd-003EVXyO9EMYCwbyBGz-MQ)
OK, Deutsche Bundeswehr, but the pattern/colour may be OK.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPOz1kfP8gIRfRkpeUwVIX77WPnOe9w-VIKoAZ-r4EPmNQmyO_Pw)
Commercially available standardised grey trousers

Note: this is not meant to endorse dropping the AF blue uniform!

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: SARDOC on December 16, 2010, 08:43:09 PM
And no I don't want pink.

Oh good for a second I was sweating. A CAP distinctive uniform wouldn't be tooooo bad, I just don't want it to be the BBDU, nor do I want us to look like just a club of people that hang out next to an airplane. We have a professional image being in a military style image. Some of you don't think so, but that really does go a long ways with most of our customers. Sure some of them don't like it, but most do. Most areas like our image and like how we do things and feel reassured by what we do and how we do it and how professional we look while doing it. If they didn't, they wouldn't ask for us to help. Recently we were asked here to help on something, we had to turn it down because of the PC act, but we were still asked to come help and when we told them about the PC act, we also told them that some of us would still come out to help in civvies. When we told them that they said never mind. Like it or not, our military image and lineage helps our organization.

I don't know why you think Blue BDU's don't present a professional image.  They are used by SAR professional's around the country.  We just don't need a Camouflage pattern for our mission.  I don't think the color pattern is going to reassure a customer as to your professionalism, it's your attitude and conduct.  Especially when you walk into a command post with SAR, Coast Guard, DMAT, MMRS and FEMA's USAR teams and they are all wearing Blue BDU style uniforms and people think the guy in the Camo from the organization they've never heard of is trying too hard to play army.

I've spent my life as a professional rescuer and I think you are thinking camo gives you the appearance of professionalism.  heck, even some of the National Guard Civil Support teams don't wear camo all the time.  It's better to actually be good...then just trying to look good
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Senty7 on December 16, 2010, 09:27:03 PM
^+1
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 16, 2010, 09:42:15 PM
We just don't need a Camouflage pattern for our mission.  I don't think the color pattern is going to reassure a customer as to your professionalism, it's your attitude and conduct.  Especially when you walk into a command post with SAR, Coast Guard, DMAT, MMRS and FEMA's USAR teams and they are all wearing Blue BDU style uniforms and people think the guy in the Camo from the organization they've never heard of is trying too hard to play army.

I've spent my life as a professional rescuer and I think you are thinking camo gives you the appearance of professionalism.  heck, even some of the National Guard Civil Support teams don't wear camo all the time.  It's better to actually be good...then just trying to look good
I don't think the problem is the camo, it's the insignia. Ours simply does not look professional. The tapes look crappy on BDUs or BBDUs. I'd be willing to be that anyone in a command post is going to accept help from someone whether they're in ACUs, ABUs, NWU, or MCUU. The Coast Guard rarely uses cammi, the blue is their standard utility.

I'm not sure what CSTs you're seeing that aren't wearing camo. It's the utility uniform, and I don't know any that have legitimate uniform variations authorized. CSTs are still military, they're not going to change it out just to work with civil authorities.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: SARDOC on December 16, 2010, 11:20:09 PM
We just don't need a Camouflage pattern for our mission.  I don't think the color pattern is going to reassure a customer as to your professionalism, it's your attitude and conduct.  Especially when you walk into a command post with SAR, Coast Guard, DMAT, MMRS and FEMA's USAR teams and they are all wearing Blue BDU style uniforms and people think the guy in the Camo from the organization they've never heard of is trying too hard to play army.

I've spent my life as a professional rescuer and I think you are thinking camo gives you the appearance of professionalism.  heck, even some of the National Guard Civil Support teams don't wear camo all the time.  It's better to actually be good...then just trying to look good
I don't think the problem is the camo, it's the insignia. Ours simply does not look professional. The tapes look crappy on BDUs or BBDUs. I'd be willing to be that anyone in a command post is going to accept help from someone whether they're in ACUs, ABUs, NWU, or MCUU. The Coast Guard rarely uses cammi, the blue is their standard utility.

I'm not sure what CSTs you're seeing that aren't wearing camo. It's the utility uniform, and I don't know any that have legitimate uniform variations authorized. CSTs are still military, they're not going to change it out just to work with civil authorities.

I honestly don't care which uniform we wear.  I agree that the Ultramarine color leaves a lot to be desired...I'm not sure where else we can improve with the insignia other then the shear volume of patches and bling seems a bit excessive.  If you look in CAPR 39-1 for the BBDU image the LtCol's uniform would be fine if it were pressed.  The Major's uniform has that awful Comm Patch above his name..  As far as the other Comm patch on the left pocket...I'm torn...it looks okay, but makes the uniform look busy. IMO I also think the Wing Patch should be optional...I'm a minimalist.

I just wish we would just wear the same uniform across our membership so that when we did participate in emergency services we don't have the rag tag (look what I found at the surplus store) appearance.  I understand that some people see the BDU's as a recruiting tool for the cadet program.  Teen's do happen to think it has that CDI factor.  Don't really care I just wish our uniform was actually "Uniform"

Some of the CST's I've worked with in the past for OPSEC reasons try to keep a subdued profile.  My point was they don't always wear camo.  Sometimes they don't wear a uniform at all..my point was they don't need camo to be professional.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JK657 on December 17, 2010, 07:21:14 AM
What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 17, 2010, 07:39:03 AM
What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?
Just for giggles, what is the cadet standard? Same?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 17, 2010, 08:37:47 AM
That would be .. interesting. Considering rank is a big part of the program as a whole.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 17, 2010, 09:00:07 AM
What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?

Or do what the AF tried back a few years ago...delete all sew-on insignia and just wear an aircrew-type leather nameplate above the left pocket.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: FARRIER on December 17, 2010, 09:28:26 AM
I'm game for that. No other patches or insignia. We still have the shoulder slide rank insignia for the USAF and Aviator Uniform. Let the cadets keep the name tapes and sew on insignia. :)

What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?

Or do what the AF tried back a few years ago...delete all sew-on insignia and just wear an aircrew-type leather nameplate above the left pocket.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 17, 2010, 03:10:24 PM
What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?

Or do what the AF tried back a few years ago...delete all sew-on insignia and just wear an aircrew-type leather nameplate above the left pocket.
I'd be for it.

Sadly, it didn't stay like that. We only wore it that way for a couple years before we had to start sewing rank back on. I guess they didn't realize how stupid stripes on the sleeves looked with the ASNP. Didn't look so bad for officers, but with enlisted, it was hideous.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 17, 2010, 06:54:19 PM
Why not just keep everything as is currently on the BDU, except take the giant patches off? Keep the wing patch where it is, move squadron patches to the right sleeve above the flag, and get rid of the rest of the junk like the massive ES patch and comms patches for SMs. Keep the rank and skill badges as they are and make it look more professional by getting rid of some of the cluttering patches on the chest. If they keep making new giant patches we are going to start seeing patches going on the lower pockets too, and that would just be absolutely gross!
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 17, 2010, 07:24:00 PM
Why not just keep everything as is currently on the BDU, except take the giant patches off? Keep the wing patch where it is, move squadron patches to the right sleeve above the flag, and get rid of the rest of the junk like the massive ES patch and comms patches for SMs. Keep the rank and skill badges as they are and make it look more professional by getting rid of some of the cluttering patches on the chest. If they keep making new giant patches we are going to start seeing patches going on the lower pockets too, and that would just be absolutely gross!
So make it look like a pseudo-Army uniform? I wouldn't go for it. I already wear an Army uniform, I don't want a second one. Most people in my unit don't even know I'm in CAP, I'd get a lot of ribbing if not outright hostility if they did. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if we wore a uniform configured like an older Army one.

If for some reason, the entire military went to an ACU design, I wouldn't have an issue with following suit. I don't think it's going to happen though.

The wing patch isn't required, and not really needed. The flag isn't either. It was worn primarily by military personnel overseas (although not everyone wore one) to identify country.

For a minimalist approach to BDUs of both colors, I'd stick to badges. Three of them(Commanders would be permitted a fourth, the command badge over the nametag). Two over the tape, one on the left pocket(similar to what the Air Force does now). Tapes and rank the only other thing authorized.

Putting other than rank insignia on the sleeves is an Army thing. Doesn't belong in an Auxiliary(however part-time) of the Air Force. Keep it simple.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 17, 2010, 07:29:43 PM
Also FWIW, I was at the local surplus store, which is absolutely awesome. The owner was a CAP cadet with my dad when they were kids, in the same squadron that I am in now. He gives small discounts on almost anything for CAP members. He had a good stash of BDUs, or so I thought before getting close enough to see them well. Most were past serviceability and were priced great but were at a point where I wouldn't purchase them except for spare field uniforms for my 72 hr pack. The majority upon closer inspection were not U.S. BDU patterns. He did have quite a few ABU uniforms that were used, in GREAT condition priced at about $55 for a jacket and pants together, he also had brand new sets that would cost about $80 a set. Now for BDU they were right about the same within $5 a set. BBDU were about $10 more than the ABU. So switching to BBDU for everyone doesn't seem like it would be that cost effective solution that everyone thinks it is. Switching to something more mainlined like the ABU or whatever USAF decides will be their next uniform seems like that answer that everyone is looking for especially when the ROTC programs and ANG and all the other groups start DXing their uniforms due to people graduation or moving on and whatnot. Those groups do tend to give their old uniforms to JROTC and CAP units for surplus use. It really does seem to me that sticking with what USAF is wearing is the answer to all the concerns except for what some see as a problem that we are "too military".
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JK657 on December 18, 2010, 12:00:11 AM
What if:

The Air Force said ABU's for all of CAP , the only catch is no rank insignia.

Do you wear it or stay with BDUs?
Just for giggles, what is the cadet standard? Same?

The only reason I bring this up is because in the end, the biggest hangup (in my opinion) is Senior Member rank. AFJROTC and AFROTC can wear them (ABU), but they use distinctive rank insignia. All uniform issues always seem to come back to rank on the uniform. I feel like if you either deleted it off of the field uniform or went to a distinctive insignia maybe USAF wouldnt have all the heart burn and CAP wouldn't be treated like a redheaded step child.

YMMV  8)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 18, 2010, 12:34:40 AM
CAP's only Hope is to assign me as UNIFORM DICTATOR! I will make  us look good, I guarantee it!

I will focus group the Uniforms, with Cadets and Seniors.

The Air Force will not be allowed to pull the "Confused" Stunt to cancel our uniform.

It will look different than the Air Force anyway.

Seriously, is there still a Uniform Committee assigned by NHQ?

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: ol'fido on December 18, 2010, 01:37:32 AM
Uniform Committee??? DON'T ASK. DON'T TELL.   :-X
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 18, 2010, 01:50:40 AM
DON'T ASK. DON'T TELL.   :-X
Hasn't that been repealed?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: a2capt on December 18, 2010, 02:05:26 AM
No, but the TPU has been.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 18, 2010, 02:24:47 AM
No, but the TPU has been.

Yes, DADT has been repealed and last I heard CAP had a uniform committee.

Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

Tell me why you are in an organization that has roots to the military and has a rank structure that runs the same as USAF when you hate it so much.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 18, 2010, 03:47:37 AM
No, but the TPU has been.

Yes, DADT has been repealed and last I heard CAP had a uniform committee.
Senate is expected to vote on that soon- the House keeps passing it, needs Senate approval still. Not repealed yet.
AFROTC can wear them (ABU), but they use distinctive rank insignia.
AFROTC is moot, in my opinion, because that is first and foremost an officer training program. Juniors and Seniors are USAF-contracted and in the Reserves in some way, so them having uniforms follows..
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 18, 2010, 04:26:46 AM
AFROTC is moot, in my opinion, because that is first and foremost an officer training program. Juniors and Seniors are USAF-contracted and in the Reserves in some way, so them having uniforms follows..
What about the Junior side of the house? What are they wearing?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 18, 2010, 04:32:40 AM
JROTC is mostly unit discretion. Here, they are in ABU.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DakRadz on December 18, 2010, 04:57:26 AM
JROTC is mostly unit discretion. Here, they are in ABU.
Wrongly. We are still in BDUs per our overseeing organization in the USAF. No ABUs have been officially authorized. HOWEVER, I will say my unit allows cadets to wear the JROTC tapes and patch if they purchase all ABU items with their own money. Technically it's BDUs only, though.

The combat uniforms are a carefully monitored subject in JROTC- a letter must be obtained from the Principal each year saying that cadets can wear BDUs to school. It is a reward type uniform. Blues thrice a month and BDUs once. We also wear them for activities that warrant them.
The program can be conducted without BDUs because AFJROTC actually issues full PT gear which can be worn in lieu of dirtying blues.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: SARDOC on December 18, 2010, 05:22:55 AM
Are there still Major USAF Commands still wearing the BDU?  It's been a long time since I've seen anybody in the air force wearing them?  All I see now are ABU's and Flight Suits except for Mondays of Course.
No, but the TPU has been.
Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

Tell me why you are in an organization that has roots to the military and has a rank structure that runs the same as USAF when you hate it so much.

First...I love the shared History we have with the Air Force...I love the affiliation.
Second....We are already separated from that "Major Entity" when we went Corporate...Officially we are only the Auxiliary when performing AFAM's.  That was their decision to separate from us.
Third, our uniforms should represent our organization and be functional for our purposes.  If we should look like the Air Force because they are our parent service...then we should change when they do...It's the One Team, One Fight concept.  But we Shouldn't look TOO Military...people might think we are the Air Force...Really???? Either we are or we aren't.  And although we have some great supporters in the Air Force some people are getting really mixed signals from them and would rather just change uniforms then dealing with the politics because apparently the Air Force must have a patent on the color blue.

And as most regular CAPTALK member's know...you know what happens when you infringe on someones else's trademark.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Tim Medeiros on December 18, 2010, 05:32:59 AM
Are there still Major USAF Commands still wearing the BDU?  It's been a long time since I've seen anybody in the air force wearing them?  All I see now are ABU's and Flight Suits except for Mondays of Course.
Mandatory wear date is less than a year out and, from what I've heard and read, it is still the individuals choice whether or not to wear them yet, though I'm sure there are gonna be those who wait until the very last day.  BMT has been issuing ABUs since FY07, so the "new" guys are likely not in BDUs right now.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Persona non grata on December 18, 2010, 05:46:38 AM
Tim, last time I talked to you I thought you were going security forces?      Cyber Ops?

Back on topic.............
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Tim Medeiros on December 18, 2010, 06:18:41 AM
Tim, last time I talked to you I thought you were going security forces?      Cyber Ops?

Back on topic.............
That was going to be the case, until my hearing test at MEPS wasn't as good as I had hoped.  In the middle of trying to get my hearing retested the 3D0X2 job was given to me.  Seeing as it was #2 on my wish list, I decided to not put up a fuss.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 18, 2010, 07:06:26 AM
Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

It wouldn't.  I prefer wearing the AF blue uniform but there are people who cannot/won't, who absolutely loathe the mall cop uniform and who thought the CSU was, at last, a happy medium.

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

It wouldn't.  Since the '90s there is a small-but-very-vocal group of our membership that would like to drop all the "annoying" military affiliations and make us just another ES organisation that happens to fly.  If the day comes that finally happens, I'm gone.

First...I love the shared History we have with the Air Force...I love the affiliation.

Me too.  I wouldn't have joined if that didn't exist.

Second....We are already separated from that "Major Entity" when we went Corporate...Officially we are only the Auxiliary when performing AFAM's.  That was their decision to separate from us.

Which bites worse than Dracula and the shark in "Jaws" combined.

Third, our uniforms should represent our organization and be functional for our purposes.  If we should look like the Air Force because they are our parent service...then we should change when they do...It's the One Team, One Fight concept.  But we Shouldn't look TOO Military...people might think we are the Air Force...Really???? Either we are or we aren't. 

I don't get the bit about looking "too military."  We wear modified military officer grade and render customs and courtesies.  If anything, we are "paramilitary" in operation.

And although we have some great supporters in the Air Force some people are getting really mixed signals from them and would rather just change uniforms then dealing with the politics because apparently the Air Force must have a patent on the color blue.

Anyone who knows more than I do about this subject feel free to correct, but I don't think it's necessarily the Air Force.  I think it is a mix of the "corporatist" thinking at NHQ which would have us all in mall cop/polos and overly, needlessly nervous types at NHQ who are so frightened of ticking the AF off, when in most cases we haven't (over uniform matters anyway).  Combine that with the sins of the previous Generalissimo, and they think "EEK!  BLUE!" and reach for the colour grey because some 18-year-old E-1 fresh out of tech school has seen a CAP officer wearing "their" uniform and grumbles about it to his/her first shirt, and it makes the way up to the wing king...and the BoG uses the "cure a headache with a guillotine" mode and axes the CSU, and makes it all but impossible for us to have a distinctive uniform that has any semblance of blue in it.  Airline style blue?  Police style blue?  RAF style blue-grey?  Nope.  Can't have it.  Try it and we'll be back in berry boards, or worse, so quick it'll make our heads swim.

What is often overlooked is that the Air Force vetted and approved the CSU, after making the changes like taking the hard rank off the flight cap (which looked cluttered anyway with the rank and CAP device).

It is incomprehensible to me why the modified CSU with General Courter's directives in force is not being kept.

And as most regular CAPTALK member's know...you know what happens when you infringe on someones else's trademark.

Yes, but in this case, brutally speaking, the only "trademark infringement" risk is the ones the Air Force does have control over...Shade 1550 light blue and Shade 1620 "AF blue."

Someone please have a look at these shades of blue and tell me how a distinctive CAP uniform utilising any of them, or the Irish Air Corps style I posted, is going to tick the AF off if it doesn't use any of their insignia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_blue#US_Air_Force_blue
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 18, 2010, 08:36:40 PM
No, but the TPU has been.

Yes, DADT has been repealed and last I heard CAP had a uniform committee.

Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

Tell me why you are in an organization that has roots to the military and has a rank structure that runs the same as USAF when you hate it so much.
We already have uniforms that seperate us from the Air Force.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: flyboy53 on December 18, 2010, 09:19:24 PM
This subject is so old and re-hashed so many times that....I look at the issue to change uniforms in the same light as I have seen a major erosion in this organization since we have moved from having an Air Force officer as national commander.

We are supposed to be wearing Air Force uniforms with distinctive CAP insignia. Instead ,those who chose not to conform to standards are more intent with spending money developing uniforms that fit their fancies and forcing them on the field; causing others to spend their money at places like Vanguard in order to make more money for CAP. It's quite the vicious circle anymore and quite representative of the "Come And Pay" attitude of an out-of-control not-for-profit corporation. The more liberal the change, the more we look like members of a cheap marching band; especially with the hodgepodge of Army uniform items or policies like flags on the right sleve of BDUs.

In my years of sevice to the CAP, I have grown increasingly aware of senior-ranking CAP Cadets who view senior members with a great deal of distain because of the lack of standards and discipline the senior members have for themselves. And you don't dare suggest to senior members to adhere to standards...do you? What happened to self-discipline and professionalism?

Without the Air Force uniform, you can bet there will be more of an erosion of support from the Air Force to include the very uniforms provided to the cadets....and with that, do you want to bet how long the cadet program will last.

Without the Air Force, you lose a key aspect of our identity. The next casulty will be purpose. And I, too, will be out the door....because this organization has become another one of those which collect money for the benefit of the headquarters operation and very little for the grass roots.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 19, 2010, 12:13:39 AM
I have been on the inside of some Air Force conversations. We have 60,000 members, we are the size of an Air Force Major Command in manpower. We have the budget of an Air Force Squadron. 

By design we are kept small. Think of it this way. We could supply all the AFROTC Candidates and all the Air Force Academy Candidates from our Cadet Program, if we were provided the same funding as AFJROTC. We are purposely kept small, because we would show up AFJROTC and the retired Lt Cols serving in high schools all over the country.

I think the Air Force wants to keep us over tasked and underfunded. If we had more of a budget we threaten full time and reserve resources that are way more expensive than CAP and we threaten full time careerists, both Civil Service and Military.

I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 19, 2010, 12:26:51 AM
I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.

Are you saying that the AF is trying to "retire" CAP by attrition?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Earhart1971 on December 19, 2010, 01:52:43 AM
Not at all, the Air Force will not retire CAP. Demographics of pilots will change and we will really have to scramble to have pilots in few years. It will get harder for CAP but we will still be around.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: jeders on December 19, 2010, 03:20:45 PM
I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.

Demographics of pilots will change and we will really have to scramble to have pilots in few years. It will get harder for CAP but we will still be around.

I've seen absolutely zero evidence of either of these. We have and continue to get new younger members and pilots.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JAFO78 on December 19, 2010, 11:48:15 PM
So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.

Just looking for direction.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Fubar on December 20, 2010, 12:01:00 AM
So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.
If they want to wear a field uniform now, they have two choices: BDUs and Blue BDUs.

Anyone joining now will likely get a pretty full life out of a set of BDUs since if the Air Force does grant CAP permission in a couple of years, there will likely be a 1-2 year transition period, meaning someone joining today will get AT LEAST three years of wear out of a set of BDUs. That's if everything moves quickly - what are the odds of that?

Buying ABUs now will likely be a waste of money - there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage to buying them now and not being to wear them for a couple more years.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on December 20, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
Ditto^

We usually get twice the wear-out time to assimilate new uniforms.  Our cadets are STILL wearing the old 4-button AF blue jacket.  That means we are likely to have 10 years to phase-in the ABU once authorized.  The BDU's you buy now will be pretty ragged by then.  Eventually, you can replace your worn faded BDU with the ABU, but that is likely to be years away.

Also, the UM Blue nametapes don't look as bad on the ABU as they do on the BDU.  Dark gray or dark blue with whitle letters might look better.

The worst thing about the UM blue nametapes is when you put them on a BBDU, they appear faded, even if brand new.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 20, 2010, 01:05:48 AM
Ditto^

We usually get twice the wear-out time to assimilate new uniforms.  Our cadets are STILL wearing the old 4-button AF blue jacket.  That means we are likely to have 10 years to phase-in the ABU once authorized.  The BDU's you buy now will be pretty ragged by then.  Eventually, you can replace your worn faded BDU with the ABU, but that is likely to be years away.

Also, the UM Blue nametapes don't look as bad on the ABU as they do on the BDU.  Dark gray or dark blue with whitle letters might look better.

The worst thing about the UM blue nametapes is when you put them on a BBDU, they appear faded, even if brand new.
I don't like the idea of two different nametape colors. Make it one color for nametapes/accoutrements for both uniforms, and be done with it. Navy blue is probably the best. Would look good with stripes for those who wear them.

There's also the fact that it would look uniquely different, and if anyone can't tell them in "low light", they don't need to be wearing a uniform. I know the UM has historical signifigance, but it's time to move forward. Tradition shouldn't be held up to the point that it looks ridiculous.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: PHall on December 20, 2010, 02:16:00 AM
So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.

Just looking for direction.

ABU's are not yet authorised. And we don't even have a estimated date when we will be authorised.
There's usually a two to three year transition period when we change uniforms.
So if your new members just have to have them, BDU's should be okay for the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 20, 2010, 03:03:09 AM
I know I will want to know ASAP when there is an answer, preferably before my cadets know, so that I can get a set and have the patches on and show them what the uniform is to look like before they go out and spend the money on them and accidentally get them wrong. We all know how cadets are, if there is a new uniform to come out, they have to have them like RIGHT NOW!
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: abdsp51 on December 20, 2010, 03:28:06 AM
The one thing about ABUS i thought the AF was dumb not to allow was us tucking them in.  The green boots are ick and a waste of money.  Other than that it is functional outside of being hot as heck and them not having an official summer weight sold in stores.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 20, 2010, 03:36:57 AM
Now that I think about it, even if we were authorized ABU's, I would probably wear Woodland's up untill the last day of the phase-out period. I did the same thing with the recent FLWG patch change (but I haven't even thought about buying the new ones, they look bad IMO).
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 20, 2010, 03:48:34 AM
I didn't know there was a change, could someone show me the old and the new?
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 20, 2010, 03:54:07 AM
I didn't know there was a change, could someone show me the old and the new?
Last version:
(http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af96/floridacap/FLWG.jpg)

New version:
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/000000CAP0637H_MED.jpg)
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 20, 2010, 03:56:03 AM
Wow, I thought the Florida patch still had the alligator with a flashlight, I think the newest one looks rather awesome and professional.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: HGjunkie on December 20, 2010, 03:59:28 AM
Wow, I thought the Florida patch still had the alligator with a flashlight, I think the newest one looks rather awesome and professional.
This one?:
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mTytaVIo2mKZHauF4pt0syg/140.jpg)

It was axed a while back. I think the new one looks okay online, but in person it looks rather cartoonish/cheesy.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: arBar on December 20, 2010, 04:07:27 AM
[ABUs are] functional outside of being hot as heck and them not having an official summer weight sold in stores.

I'm not sure what's govt issued, but Propper sells them in 50/50 NYCO twill (Nylon/Cotton), which I understand to be suitable for both Winter and Summer just like the Battle Rip(R).  Anyone else know differently?

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on December 20, 2010, 04:53:16 AM
I have seen ABU in Ripstop a couple of times.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: abdsp51 on December 20, 2010, 04:55:36 AM
There is no summer weight official abu.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DC on December 20, 2010, 05:29:15 AM
Wow, I thought the Florida patch still had the alligator with a flashlight, I think the newest one looks rather awesome and professional.
This one?:
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mTytaVIo2mKZHauF4pt0syg/140.jpg)

It was axed a while back. I think the new one looks okay online, but in person it looks rather cartoonish/cheesy.
They are better than the horrible, boring one HWSRN replaced the gator patch with. I like it, though the connection with FL is a little hard to grasp at first.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: PHall on December 20, 2010, 05:58:37 AM
I have seen ABU in Ripstop a couple of times.

Not approved and depending on who catches you wearing them, you might just earn yourself an Article 15 for your troubles.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 20, 2010, 06:40:56 AM
There is no summer weight official abu.

Yeah, there is, but it's only issued in theater. Number of personnel in Iraq had them. Asked about them, several people said they received them when they got there. Couple of them were officers.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: abdsp51 on December 20, 2010, 06:50:28 AM
There is a lighter version for Firefighters and EOD and other AFSC's that would require it.  Its fire retardent and thats about it but there is no summer version of the ABU availible through current channels.  Anything claiming to be summer is not approved for wear.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 20, 2010, 07:11:01 AM
Until there is something in writing about "yes, CAP will have ABU's," I wouldn't waste my money.

Get BDU's/BBDU's.

They're authorised by regs and will last long enough for the brass to decide whether or not we get ABU's.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: caphornbuckle on December 20, 2010, 07:41:18 AM
Until there is something in writing about "yes, CAP will have ABU's," I wouldn't waste my money.

Get BDU's/BBDU's.

They're authorised by regs and will last long enough for the brass to decide whether or not we get ABU's.

I agree.  Considering the military is still debating on what uniform to wear, supplying those uniforms once they are approved to the servicemen, and then CAP getting them, you are still talking at least 5-10 years down the road before it gets to us when it goes mandatory for CAP wear.  By the time we are forced into a new AF-style field uniform, most of your cadets will no longer be cadets!
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: Hawk200 on December 20, 2010, 01:38:14 PM
There is a lighter version for Firefighters and EOD and other AFSC's that would require it.  Its fire retardent and thats about it but there is no summer version of the ABU availible through current channels.  Anything claiming to be summer is not approved for wear.
That's the cotton ripstop, which from what I'm seeing on searches is claiming to be "fire retardant", "flame resistant", "fire resistant", but it's just made of ripstop cotton. Ripstop cotton is not actually any of the above, it's just safer than something made with nylon fiber.

The items were issued in Iraq to select units. Unusual to see, but not unavailable. Wear was up to commanders.

Follow on guidance: Cotton ABU (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123171446)

Until there is something in writing about "yes, CAP will have ABU's," I wouldn't waste my money.
Agreed. I've known too many people that bought the current service dress when it was new, and then configure it in the manner they thought it would be.

I think the strangest was when blues still had sleeve braid rank, and one person used gold braid. Her reasoning was that the Coast Guard used silver, and their Auxiliary used gold (or maybe it was vice versa). She figured that CAP members would wear gold braid. The "new" (at the time) service dress hadn't even been authorized for CAP yet. It looked strange.

Get BDU's/BBDU's.

They're authorised by regs and will last long enough for the brass to decide whether or not we get ABU's.
If Congress has their way on a common uniform again, I suspect we may see ABU's fairly soon, maybe even batches donated to CAP (after all the ROTC type units get them). They won't just toss them completely.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: jimmydeanno on December 20, 2010, 04:21:27 PM
Wouldn't it make sense to just have a universal utility uniform for the branches for stateside, then have a group of approved camouflage designs to match whatever theater we're fighting in at the time and issue something that will work there for whomever actually goes there?

For example. 

Air Force provides ABUs to all airmen stateside in Basic/ROTC/OTS/Academy. 

Airman is getting deployed to Afghanistan, so he is issued multi-cam uniform and accessories.

Airman is getting deployed to South Korea, so he is issued some sort of jungle pattern.

They could be the same cut and such, just different color.  It seems that it would be cheaper to only provide those who are deploying with the alternate camo.  I mean, the Air Force doesn't exactly deploy E-1 to E-3 or O-1 to O-2 very often, which are technically your largest groups...

As for the concern about CAP getting ABUs, I don't know what the issue is.  It's not like there will be a sudden demand for 65,000 pairs of ABUs on day 1 of the authorization.  It would take a bunch of time for our members to outfit themselves, and I'm sure that many would just wait until close to the phase-out date.  I think the supply concern isn't really a concern.
Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: DC on December 20, 2010, 05:57:43 PM
Wouldn't it make sense to just have a universal utility uniform for the branches for stateside, then have a group of approved camouflage designs to match whatever theater we're fighting in at the time and issue something that will work there for whomever actually goes there?

For example. 

Air Force provides ABUs to all airmen stateside in Basic/ROTC/OTS/Academy. 

Airman is getting deployed to Afghanistan, so he is issued multi-cam uniform and accessories.

Airman is getting deployed to South Korea, so he is issued some sort of jungle pattern.

They could be the same cut and such, just different color.  It seems that it would be cheaper to only provide those who are deploying with the alternate camo.  I mean, the Air Force doesn't exactly deploy E-1 to E-3 or O-1 to O-2 very often, which are technically your largest groups...

As for the concern about CAP getting ABUs, I don't know what the issue is.  It's not like there will be a sudden demand for 65,000 pairs of ABUs on day 1 of the authorization.  It would take a bunch of time for our members to outfit themselves, and I'm sure that many would just wait until close to the phase-out date.  I think the supply concern isn't really a concern.
That's basically what the Army just announced they are going to do.

Quote
But now the Army brass is prepared to abandon the current pattern in favor of three different uniforms  designed for more specific environments. The service wants to see onepattern for wear in woodland or jungle environments, one pattern fordesert and arid environments and a so-called "transitional" patternthat could be worn across all environments if needed.

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html?ESRC=army-a.nl (http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html?ESRC=army-a.nl)

Title: Re: Previous and Future CAP Uniforms
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 21, 2010, 10:09:29 PM
Agreed. I've known too many people that bought the current service dress when it was new, and then configure it in the manner they thought it would be.

I think the strangest was when blues still had sleeve braid rank, and one person used gold braid. Her reasoning was that the Coast Guard used silver, and their Auxiliary used gold (or maybe it was vice versa). She figured that CAP members would wear gold braid. The "new" (at the time) service dress hadn't even been authorized for CAP yet. It looked strange.

CG uses gold (like the Navy), CGAUX uses silver.

Too bad you don't have a picture of that "invented" uniform! :P

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of AF personnel I saw wear that uniform: one, a Ch/Capt.

I remember when that was issued...I heard all sorts of rumours about the sleeve rings from grey (the perennial CAP "go-to" colour  ::)) to ultramarine blue, to sky blue.  I also heard rumours that we would not get that uniform, that we would keep the existing Tony Nelson uniform and get hard rank and blue epaulettes back, which I would have MUCH preferred, though of course the issue of running out of them would have been difficult.

I didn't get my "new" service dress until sometime in '97.

I personally wouldn't mind going to some sort of sleeve rings, maybe kind of like the old Royal Observer Corps in the UK did; they took blue/black RAF rank braid and dyed it midnight blue to keep their distinctiveness from the actual RAF.

(http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f6/Observer_Lieutenant_Commander.jpg/66px-Observer_Lieutenant_Commander.jpg)