CAP Talk

Operations => Emergency Services & Operations => Topic started by: Ozzy on June 11, 2020, 02:03:21 am

Title: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Ozzy on June 11, 2020, 02:03:21 am
Had a question about sorties and the SAR ribbon.

CAPR 39-3:
QuoteAir Search and Rescue Ribbon.  Participate actively in at least 10 search and rescue sorties.  A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 sorties.  All sorties must be in support of an actual search and rescue mission authorized by competent authority

GAWG seems to love giving additional sorties during a mission, a recent one for example I had three 'ground' sorties (One for initial search area, one for redirect, one for return to base; About 2 hour mission). Another mission (Actual downed A/c) had 5 sorties for about 6 hours.

Am I correct in assuming each sortie would count towards to 10 needed per SAR ribbon & Clasp?
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Spam on June 11, 2020, 02:19:40 am
That would appear to fly in the face of every bit of precedent I'm aware of, over the past 3 decades I've been doing this.
Were the sorties authorized in WMIRS, by the IC, or by someone in the GP1 or WG DO shop, or by chain of command?
It matters because WMIRS would normally be the basis of evidence.

(Can I log a couple of touch and goes just for going to the can? Or, does that count as an ordnance delivery)?

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Spam on June 11, 2020, 02:41:54 am
Addendum:
The relevant sections are as below:

CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012

1-15. Web Mission Information Reporting System (WMIRS).
a. (3) Ground sorties are generally considered to be from when a team is released until they return.

and

d. Sorties which divert and thereby incur an extra sortie must have their new sortie entered into WMIRS prior to departure.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Eclipse on June 11, 2020, 03:08:54 am
A sortie is a sortie, however those should also have a requisite full paperwork packet for each,
including the debrief.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on June 11, 2020, 10:52:21 am
Since I have taken a group of people from our Group to a mission base on a TRAEX when it is at a different Group, I had to enter an 109. Does that mean I can count those as two sorties?

1 sortie, travel from Group A to Group B to attend TRAEX.
1 sortie, travel from Group B to Group A return from TRAEX.

Different 109s entered.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Eclipse on June 11, 2020, 12:33:01 pm
Training missions do not count towards the SAR ribbon, only actuals.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: JC004 on June 11, 2020, 08:19:36 pm
It specifies TIME for ground.

CAPR 39-3:

Quote from: undefined(2) Ground Personnel. Credit given will be computed on the basis of time spent on a mission and the nature of the duties performed.
(a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period.
(b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: PHall on June 11, 2020, 09:49:48 pm
Quote from: JC004 on June 11, 2020, 08:19:36 pmIt specifies TIME for ground.

CAPR 39-3:

Quote from: undefined(2) Ground Personnel. Credit given will be computed on the basis of time spent on a mission and the nature of the duties performed.
(a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period.
(b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.

But is that for Actual missions or Training missions or is it for both?
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Eclipse on June 11, 2020, 10:54:03 pm
Actual only.

"c. Air Search and Rescue Ribbon. Participate in at least 10 search and rescue sorties. A
bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 sorties. All sorties must be in support of an actual
search and rescue mission authorized by competent authority.
"
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: wacapgh on June 12, 2020, 09:24:13 pm
Quote from: Ozzy on June 11, 2020, 02:03:21 amHad a question about sorties and the SAR ribbon.

CAPR 39-3:
Quote from: undefinedAir Search and Rescue Ribbon.  Participate actively in at least 10 search and rescue sorties.  A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 sorties.  All sorties must be in support of an actual search and rescue mission authorized by competent authority

GAWG seems to love giving additional sorties during a mission, a recent one for example I had three 'ground' sorties (One for initial search area, one for redirect, one for return to base; About 2 hour mission). Another mission (Actual downed A/c) had 5 sorties for about 6 hours.

Am I correct in assuming each sortie would count towards to 10 needed per SAR ribbon & Clasp?

CAPR 39-3,21.c:

(2) Ground Personnel. Credit given will be computed on the basis of time spent on a mission and the nature of the duties performed.
(a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period.
(b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.

Attachment 1 of 39-3 references CAPR 60-3. In 60-3, 1-15.a; a "sortie" is:
(2) Air sorties are defined in CAPR 60-1*. Additional sorties can be approved by the
designated approval authorities for the mission on short notice for unexpected events. Additional
information is also available on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.
(3) Ground sorties are generally considered to be from when a team is released until
they return.
* Note the reference to CAPR 60-1 has not been updated to reflect the renumbering of 60-1 to 70-1. Scroll down to Appendix 2 of 70-1, an air "sortie" is generally from takeoff to engine shutdown.

In WMIRS, your teams activity might have been broken up into 8 sorties for operational tracking. Other mission staff may have recorded the same activity as only two sorties. One for your initial search area and return, another for the release and return to second search area.

For the Air Search and Rescue ribbon, 39-3 defines credit for ground sorties by time (one every 4 hours, with a max of 3 in 24 hours).

2 hours + 6 hours = 8 hours. Under 2(a) you are eligible for 2 sorties when applied to the AS&R ribbon.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: SarDragon on June 12, 2020, 09:52:39 pm
I have interpreted the four hour thing as anything up to four hours is the first sortie, and a second starts when into the fifth hour. Otherwise, a complete sortie under four hours wouldnn't count.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: Eclipse on June 12, 2020, 10:30:00 pm
The "not to exceed" is for situations of extended duration that exceed a normal sortie.

If you are released and recalled on legit, short-duration sorties, you'd get as many as you're released.

During Katrina we were released on single sorties each day, they generally lasted in excess of 12 hours.
We received three per day based on the reg.

But if we'd flown two air sorties in the early AM, then deployed with the GT, that could have been five
total.
Title: Re: Sorties for SAR Ribbon
Post by: wacapgh on June 15, 2020, 05:41:48 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2020, 09:52:39 pmI have interpreted the four hour thing as anything up to four hours is the first sortie, and a second starts when into the fifth hour. Otherwise, a complete sortie under four hours wouldnn't count.

I've seen it applied that way since I started in the mid 1970's. Otherwise, on a quick ELT mission you could wind up with a Find but no sortie credit :)

Ground Sortie credit - CAPR 39-3; Air Sortie Credit - CAPR 70-1; WMIRS sortie - Created by the mission staff to best manage the mission.