CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: shuman14 on June 01, 2020, 07:41:45 pm

Title: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: shuman14 on June 01, 2020, 07:41:45 pm
Since the Membership Award and Leadership Award are not named for an Aviation Pioneer or an important person in Aviation and/or CAP History, I thought maybe the time had come to give them a Name of someone to recognize the awards more properly.

I recommend Martha McSally, first female Fighter Pilot of the USAF, for the Leadership Award. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_McSally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_McSally)


I recommend John W. Raymond, first commanding general of the US Space Force, for the Membership Award.
https://www.spaceforce.mil/Biographies/Article/2040592/general-john-w-jay-raymond (https://www.spaceforce.mil/Biographies/Article/2040592/general-john-w-jay-raymond)
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: Holding Pattern on June 01, 2020, 07:54:25 pm
As a personal preference I'd like to see the membership ribbon based off a person that really grew the membership in CAP, and the leadership ribbon be based off a person who was a proven dedicated leader in CAP.

Let's scour our history first and THEN look outward if we can't find a suitable candidate.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: SarDragon on June 01, 2020, 07:55:46 pm
The Leadership award was renamed a while back to the Gen Benjamin O. Davis Award.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: AdAstra on June 01, 2020, 08:33:02 pm
The CAP award, first presented in 2006, was named for General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr., not to be confused with his father, BGen Benjamin O, Davis, Sr.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: shuman14 on June 01, 2020, 11:40:12 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on June 01, 2020, 07:55:46 pmThe Leadership award was renamed a while back to the Gen Benjamin O. Davis Award.

I thought that was a certificate with ribbon for completing Level II Professional Development, while Leadership Award was PART of Level two but was actually awarded for completing a Technician Rating. Confused now.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: SarDragon on June 02, 2020, 08:45:29 pm
That is correct. The Leadership Award denotes completion of Technician rating in a PD specialty, which is one step in completing Level II. The Davis Award is given at the completion of Level II, which was previously called the Certificate of Proficiency.

I don't see a great need to rename the Leadership Award, since it is a small step in a larger award. Regardless, this is something that needs to be run up the chain of command, since it will get little traction here.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: NIN on June 02, 2020, 08:57:48 pm
Might I remind that Civil Air Patrol has had mixed results with naming awards after living people.

I point you to the Frank Borman Falcon Award as an example.  As Eastern Airlines was dissolving in flames under Col Borman in the 1980s, a number of CAP members questioned the wisdom of naming an award after a living person, aerospace legend or not.

Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: shuman14 on June 03, 2020, 12:15:39 am
Okay, it was just a passing thought that I threw out there. My bad.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pm
Definitely not in favor of naming anything for a living person.  Also, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: etodd on June 05, 2020, 11:57:51 pm
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmAlso, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Resist, must resist .....
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: SarDragon on June 06, 2020, 01:30:40 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmDefinitely not in favor of naming anything for a living person.  Also, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Whyzat? There is certainly significant precedence. Eleven of the sixteen named awards were originated in the person's lifetime.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: Spam on June 06, 2020, 01:48:27 am
Quote from: SarDragon on June 06, 2020, 01:30:40 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmDefinitely not in favor of naming anything for a living person.  Also, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Whyzat? There is certainly significant precedence. Eleven of the sixteen named awards were originated in the person's lifetime.

Dave, here's a couple of solid arguments:

The former is a major reason I gave in rising in opposition when the CP shop proposed naming cadet awards after currently serving USAF officers. It would be highly inapprops to appear as if CAP Inc. were currying (ahem, Currying) favor with our customer service who funds us in that manner.

Both the former, as well as the latter reason, have been divisive causal factors in numerous political fights over naming ships and weapons systems in the past (I'm sure, since you and I share a USN past, you've heard the scuttlebutt over naming... just for reference, here's a primer on what to avoid:  https://news.usni.org/2013/04/23/twenty-six-us-navy-ship-naming-controversies (https://news.usni.org/2013/04/23/twenty-six-us-navy-ship-naming-controversies)

Best to head off controversy and minimize any disagreement until the assessments of settled history have been written, I say.

R/s
Spam
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: SarDragon on June 06, 2020, 04:04:52 am
Thank you. That's a pretty solid why not.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: goblin on June 07, 2020, 03:40:21 pm
Quote from: NIN on June 02, 2020, 08:57:48 pmMight I remind that Civil Air Patrol has had mixed results with naming awards after living people.

I point you to the Frank Borman Falcon Award as an example.  As Eastern Airlines was dissolving in flames under Col Borman in the 1980s, a number of CAP members questioned the wisdom of naming an award after a living person, aerospace legend or not.
Chuck Yeager / Mrs Chuck Yeager threatened to sue my old squadron that was named after him unless we changed the name since we decided to stop letting them attempt to profit off of our squadron patch and coins

It is no longer named after him.


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Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: ColonelJack on June 08, 2020, 09:50:46 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmAlso, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Since the Space Force passed the House with a vote of 377-48, and the Senate vote of 86-8, I don't think it will be going anywhere.

I could be wrong, of course.

Jack
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: Okayish Aviator on June 08, 2020, 11:54:44 am
Quote from: ColonelJack on June 08, 2020, 09:50:46 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmAlso, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Since the Space Force passed the House with a vote of 377-48, and the Senate vote of 86-8, I don't think it will be going anywhere.

I could be wrong, of course.

Jack

The only way we'd see something like that go away was if the capability was no longer needed. Looking at what they do (and living over here where they do it) I will tell you that the capability isn't going anywhere, and if anything will be more needed in the decades to come. As such, US Space Force isn't going to disband.

Also, I can't think of anywhere in the world where a modern military has disbanded an entire branch.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: GroundHawg on June 08, 2020, 12:23:33 pm
I just read an article (on here I think) about an active CAP member since 1941. Her membership number is like 7? I think if we are naming the membership award, some of the OG members from CAP would be a good place to start.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: Spam on June 08, 2020, 12:35:50 pm
The US Continental Army, Navy and Marines were, in fact, disbanded after the American revolution ended in the Treaty of Paris in 1783. President Adams signed the bill reestablishing them years later, when it was realized that the world was in fact a dangerous place.

In modern times, a couple of examples... Haiti disbanded their Armed Forces completely (the FAdH) in 1995, but reconstituted them starting in 2017 to assist with natural disaster relief, border security, and fighting crime. New Zealand did away with the air combat capability of the RNZAF about 20 years ago when they retired all their fighters (they do transport and ASW only, now), so thats as close as springs to mind...

As far as combatant commands (such as SOCOM, Cyber Command, AFRICOM, STRATCOM (nukes), etc.), we used to have USSPACECOM, established in 1985, I think. It went away in 2001 or so when our national focus drew inward, onto terrorism and wars in Asia, rather than outward into space.

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: MSG Mac on June 08, 2020, 10:15:09 pm
Getting back on subject. If CAP renames Awards and achievements, they should be named after CAP Members
Suggestions:
 Col Louisa Morse. DEWG Commander and CAP Historian
BG D. Harold Byrd, Second Chairman of the CAP Board
BG Earle Johnson. Successor to MG Curry and commanded CAP for the majority of WW II.
 BG Warren Barry. First former Cadet to become National Commander

Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: arajca on June 08, 2020, 10:34:54 pm
I think BG Warren Barry would be a good name for a Cadet Programs award, say for Ach 16, just before the Eaker. No way you can say it's not related to the Cadet Program.
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on June 09, 2020, 08:38:13 am
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 08, 2020, 10:15:09 pmGetting back on subject. If CAP renames Awards and achievements, they should be named after CAP Members
Suggestions:
 Col Louisa Morse. DEWG Commander and CAP Historian
BG D. Harold Byrd, Second Chairman of the CAP Board
BG Earle Johnson. Successor to MG Curry and commanded CAP for the majority of WW II.
 BG Warren Barry. First former Cadet to become National Commander
Brigadier General Howard Brookfield was the first former cadet to become National Commander. He was a Cadet in the 1940s and served as National Commander from 1982 to 1984. Brigadier General Warren Barry served as National Commander from 1990 to 1993.


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Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: RiverAux on June 11, 2020, 12:36:28 am
Quote from: ColonelJack on June 08, 2020, 09:50:46 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmAlso, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Since the Space Force passed the House with a vote of 377-48, and the Senate vote of 86-8, I don't think it will be going anywhere.

I could be wrong, of course.

Jack
It was part of a larger "must pass" bill.  The best that could be said that no one was willing to tank funding for the entire military over this idea. 
Title: Re: Renaming a PD Award
Post by: PHall on June 11, 2020, 01:40:40 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 11, 2020, 12:36:28 am
Quote from: ColonelJack on June 08, 2020, 09:50:46 am
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2020, 11:37:06 pmAlso, lets wait to see if the Space Force lasts past the next administration....

Since the Space Force passed the House with a vote of 377-48, and the Senate vote of 86-8, I don't think it will be going anywhere.

I could be wrong, of course.

Jack
It was part of a larger "must pass" bill.  The best that could be said that no one was willing to tank funding for the entire military over this idea. 


And they seem to be keeping it small right now so that any future changes won't be that hard to make.