CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Picy3 on December 04, 2018, 10:45:33 PM

Title: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Picy3 on December 04, 2018, 10:45:33 PM
So as a recent uniform item to keep me warm I got the ABU Fleece Jacket ("FLEECE JACKET - FOLIAGE GREEN", as vanguard calls it.) and in the past I have seen cadets put their insignia on a Black (maybe dark blue, i haven't looked closely) square tab. Now I have heard a many of people saying "no you cant put it there" and "yes thats fine" so after some inconclusive asking around I decided I might as well ask here.

I have heard some people say its out of regs to not have your rank showing on the outside but also that you cannot put your rank on the jacket itself (come on cadets, make up your mind! ???)? I would just really like this clarified so when I receive it (its on order) I can wear it correctly, plus I am going to staff a winter encampment as Support staff and would not want any arguments about the subject without proof or anything so a definite answer would be very helpful.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: arajca on December 04, 2018, 10:59:49 PM
Reference the ABU Wear instruction letter. While the rank wear is explicitly described, the graphic shows the rank being worn.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 04, 2018, 11:53:58 PM
Vanguard sells the blue Velcro square for the NCO rank. It's $1.30. Be careful pinning the rank on it, though. The material is very tough and it it is best to go very slow or you will bend the pins. Also pin it through the square and the fleece as well.

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Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Picy3 on December 04, 2018, 11:57:41 PM
Vanguard sells the blue Velcro square for the NCO rank. It's $1.30. Be careful pinning the rank on it, though. The material is very tough and it it is best to go very slow or you will bend the pins. Also pin it through the square and the fleece as well.

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Yeah I also ordered that though vanguard says that its on backorder and might not get to me for some time.  :-\
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: SarDragon on December 05, 2018, 03:19:13 AM
This is the rank placement for the black fleece, pre-color change. It describes, in detail, the placement of all three required items. The ICL image for the green fleece matches these instructions.

Quote
6.1.12.3. The black fleece is not authorized to be worn solely over a t-shirt, thermal
underwear, etc. When worn as an outergarment, it will have a cloth name tape in ultramarine with white
letters (only last name will be used) mounted on black Velcro between the zipper and sleeve seam on the
wearer‘s right chest. It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and
centered above the last name tape on the wearer‘s right chest. A “Civil Air Patrol” ultramarine blue tape
with white letters will be mounted on black Velcro even with the last name tape and centered between the
zipper and sleeve seam on the wearer‘s left chest.

6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia. Officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. The General Officer rank
will be positioned horizontally with a point of each star pointing upward. General Officers will wear 1-
inch stars. General Officers unable to wear 1-inch stars will wear ¾-inch stars. The Colonel rank insignia
is worn with the eagle‘s beak pointed towards the wearer‘s right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing
forward) and will be centered horizontally. The stem of the Major and Lieutenant Colonel rank will point
toward ground. The long end of the Flight Officer, Lieutenant and Captain bars will be positioned
vertically. NCOs will wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material.

6.1.12.3.2. Cadet Rank Insignia. Cadet officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. Cadet officer insignia is
centered horizontally with the long points on the cadet field grade insignia positioned vertically, and each
subsequent circle of cadet company grade insignia added horizontally. Cadet NCOs and Airmen will
wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material; cadet airmen basic wear no device.

6.1.12.3.3. The black fleece will be zipped no lower than the top of the nametape.
The collar will be folded over and resting on the shoulder, chest, and back when the zipper is not
completely zipped. The bottom length of the black fleece will match as closely as possible to the bottom
length of the Corporate Field Uniform shirt. It will be worn with the sleeves down, not pushed or rolled
up, and will remain in neat and serviceable condition at all times.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 05, 2018, 03:33:24 AM
Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: arajca on December 05, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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On my coat rack.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Eclipse on December 05, 2018, 04:31:54 AM
Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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On my coat rack.

+1 (x's 2 actually)

Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: SarDragon on December 05, 2018, 05:13:10 AM
Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Vanguard item CAP0991TS_
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Stonewall on December 05, 2018, 02:24:20 PM
I just spotted a full rack of foliage fleeces at Wright-Patterson AFB and none of them had Velcro.  I asked the MCSS lady about it and she said people are seweing name/AF tapes and drank directly to the jacket.  I have yet to see anyone so this, but then again, I’m the only one I’ve seen since 1 Oct with my tapes, badges, and rank sewn directly to my OCPs in lieu of the ever annoying hook and loop.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: mdickinson on December 06, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.


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Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: NIN on December 06, 2018, 02:07:02 PM
Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.

This right here ^

Got mine on Ebay for like $15 or 18. Worth it!
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 06, 2018, 04:06:16 PM
More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.

Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on December 07, 2018, 02:15:53 PM
Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.

This right here ^

Got mine on Ebay for like $15 or 18. Worth it!
+1, fits well, looks good.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 07, 2018, 02:33:22 PM
Can you wear the green one with the polo and gray pants, or does it have to be the black one?

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Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Eclipse on December 07, 2018, 03:01:29 PM
Black.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: hamburgee on December 07, 2018, 03:02:23 PM
Can you wear the green one with the polo and gray pants, or does it have to be the black one?

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It should be the black fleece, since the sage green fleece reasonably shouldn't be considered a "civilian" outergarment. It, however, doesn't have to be the exact black fleece that Vanguard sells:
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
5.2.2.9. Outergarments. Appropriate civilian outergarments are authorized as well as the
black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, black fleece and the USAF-style cardigan
sweater.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Picy3 on December 08, 2018, 12:24:14 AM
More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 08, 2018, 12:49:12 AM
More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.
If they don't have, nothing you can do about it. Just wear the name and CAP tapes until you get it. And BTW, it's navy blue. Also, depending if your rank insignia is big enough, you can get a c/2ndLt square and put your insignia over the dot.

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Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 10, 2018, 03:45:06 PM
More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.

If they don't have, nothing you can do about it. Just wear the name and CAP tapes until you get it. And BTW, it's navy blue. Also, depending if your rank insignia is big enough, you can get a c/2ndLt square and put your insignia over the dot.


Would that same consideration apply to wearing ABUs without ranks sewn on or a flight cap without insignia?

I'm not so sure that not having it excuses the uniform requirements. If you purchase an optional wear item that, if worn, has mandatory accouterments, you need to purchase everything that goes with it.

There is something that can be done about it: "Hey, don't wear it until you have the full uniform."

I'm one to give a week or two pass on something like that. Get the insignia. If you don't have the insignia after a reasonable couple of weeks, take it off until you wear it properly. Because at that point, it's becoming laziness. If there's an outstanding exceptional issue, such as "I just don't have the money," come talk to me.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: NIN on December 10, 2018, 04:36:48 PM
I, for one, get it. I didn't even have nametags yet at my first encampment. (I was Cadet Green, for that big blank green spot over my right pocket)  I had gotten a full set of fatigues but that was it. Insignia didn't move quite as fast then,and I had to make due with a branch tape from the squadron supply box.  I had two cutouts and a flight cap device. That was it. No nameplate, yet, either.

Somehow, I survived my first encampment with 3/4 of my insignia.

I get "the stuff is on the way from Vanguard."  But you're right: that only lasts a couple weeks.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: francisderosa16 on December 13, 2018, 01:45:55 AM
I asked the same question..about the ABU fleece.. Here is my answers [along with other questions]:


http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23068.msg413916#msg413916
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Stonewall on December 13, 2018, 07:57:20 PM
For reference, I have seen Air Force enlisted/NCO/officers wearing issued fleeces with ABU/OCPs all the time and missing some or all insgnia. In fact, I saw an Airman (not sure what rank) with only a USAF tape on her fleece today, and Tuesday I saw a Capt (rank on ABU cap) with name tapes but no Velcro rank.

And I can’t tell you how many people mess up which side the name/USAF tape goes on.

Is there an excuse? Sure. Is it a good excuse? Meh, probably not. 

Perfect world, we’d like to have everything we are supposed to have.  But Vanguard charges A LOT for Velcro name tapes and a square piece of material to pin rank rank onto, which also costs money. And then there’s shipping costs.

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Slim on December 13, 2018, 11:06:29 PM
Is there an excuse? Sure. Is it a good excuse? Meh, probably not. 

Perfect world, we’d like to have everything we are supposed to have.  But Vanguard charges A LOT for Velcro name tapes and a square piece of material to pin rank rank onto, which also costs money. And then there’s shipping costs.

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

In a perfect world, we'd have a supply room we could send our troops to that would (should?) have what our cadets need in stock, and they'd be able to go hit the embroidery shop in the PX/BX, or right outside the gate, and get the tapes they need made in a day or two, or while they wait.

But, ours isn't a perfect world, and even I had to twist the rules about mixing and matching for a few weeks by wearing the old UMB insignia (tapes too) on my fleece while I waited for whomever at Vanguard to glue (yes, glue) a Lt Col rank to a square of velcro and mail it to me.  No idea why they couldn't have taken an extra couple minutes and done that at the same time they were gluing my name tape to it's velcro strip.

While I agree that the rules are the rules, the world has yet to stop spinning because we looked the other way for a week or two while someone waits for our friendly sole-source supplier to get them what they need.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: NIN on December 14, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

When one of my LTs gets promoted, and they buy insignia to replace on their uniforms (2 sets of bars) I always take the 4th insignia and make them a fleece rank.  Takes 10 minutes and a square of velcro.  And mine are stitched.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Jester on December 14, 2018, 01:19:43 PM
Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

When one of my LTs gets promoted, and they buy insignia to replace on their uniforms (2 sets of bars) I always take the 4th insignia and make them a fleece rank.  Takes 10 minutes and a square of velcro.  And mine are stitched.

What kind of needle do you use for sewing fabric to Velcro?  I assume a regular old-school Kenmore machine is strong enough for it. I use a denim needle for putting name tapes on heavyweight ABUs.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: SarDragon on December 15, 2018, 05:29:48 AM
Use a sharp needle, not a ball point. The denim needle should work.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: arajca on December 15, 2018, 04:04:21 PM
Also, don't use the adhesive backed velcro. It gums up the needles.
Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: Eclipse on December 15, 2018, 04:28:39 PM
I've never had any issues piecing the plastic, my issues are usually with the bobbin side of the thread
bunching up on the hooks.

+1 on not using adhesive velcro.

Title: Re: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not
Post by: NIN on December 15, 2018, 04:29:08 PM
What kind of needle do you use for sewing fabric to Velcro?  I assume a regular old-school Kenmore machine is strong enough for it. I use a denim needle for putting name tapes on heavyweight ABUs.

You know, I don't even know. The general needles that you get in JoAnn's or Walmart are all I use.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They seem to work fine thru doubled-up nametag & temperate-weight ABU. I even use them to sew down the pockets (shhhh), so  when you're going thru the sides of the pocket flap, thats 2 layers of fabric on the flap, at least, plus 2 layers of fabric of the pocket.  Nary a problem.