CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: i_am_a_politician on September 12, 2018, 10:53:16 AM

Title: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: i_am_a_politician on September 12, 2018, 10:53:16 AM
Hey all, just got my Mitchell today, which also means another ribbon to add to my rack.

What do you all think about short stacking?  Does it look more professional and cleaner overall?  Can it possibly confuse more junior (and sometimes seasoned) cadets when a C/CMSgt has more ribbons than a C/Capt?

Do you recommend it? (especially for comfort since bigger racks tend to get less comfortable)
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Hawk200 on September 12, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
I've done it as a senior member. It's one of those things where most people with common sense will (rightly) assume that since you have a Mitchell, you have all the ribbons that came before it.

It is a bit easier.

39-1 will lay out what you're allowed to do. Follow it, and you shouldn't have any problem.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Eclipse on September 12, 2018, 12:41:28 PM
+1 - Don't over think it.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: AlphaSigOU on September 12, 2018, 01:49:02 PM
In the guide above titled 'The Proper Wear of CAP Ribbons' there are recommendations on short-stacking. It used to be allowed only for seniors but cadets can short stack after they've earned the Mitchell Award.


In the Squidward Service - ahem - the Navy, there are three options for short-stacking ribbons:


Single row of three consisting of the three top decorations and awards.
Three rows of three containing any nine decorations and awards. These must be in the proper order of precedence.
Full stack on service dress uniforms.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: NIN on September 12, 2018, 01:56:37 PM
<snip>

In the Squidward Service - ahem - the Navy, there are three options for short-stacking ribbons:

<superfluous guidance deleted>

Good thing we're not the Navy.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: AlphaSigOU on September 12, 2018, 02:00:55 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 12, 2018, 02:05:16 PM
What do you all think about short stacking?  Does it look more professional and cleaner overall?  Can it possibly confuse more junior (and sometimes seasoned) cadets when a C/CMSgt has more ribbons than a C/Capt?

It shouldn't confuse anyone how many ribbons you have. What's on your shoulders and flight cap indicate your grade, not your ribbon rack. Most people couldn't even tell you what ribbon means what.

I don't even wear ribbons, only badges. In fact, I think all but one of our cadet officers wears ribbons, to include a C/Lt Col. There is that old "tradition" about Air Force officers not wearing ribbons. But that's an -ism that really means nothing, and it's not as often as people think.

For me, ribbons are just one more thing I have to tend to on a uniform, and one more thing for me to lose or dirty up. But that's me. Don't take that as guidance. The less I have to wear, the easier (ooh-la-la, tres chic!).

In the military, it's more likely that an E-9 would have more ribbons than an O-3. He's been in a heck of a lot longer. But really, nobody cares.

If anyone is paying attention to your ribbon rack and not your authority, there's a bigger issue. Maybe work on teaching them modesty.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Jester on September 12, 2018, 02:26:11 PM
In the guide above titled 'The Proper Wear of CAP Ribbons' there are recommendations on short-stacking. It used to be allowed only for seniors but cadets can short stack after they've earned the Mitchell Award.


In the Squidward Service - ahem - the Navy, there are three options for short-stacking ribbons:


Single row of three consisting of the three top decorations and awards.
Three rows of three containing any nine decorations and awards. These must be in the proper order of precedence.
Full stack on service dress uniforms.

Where did you get that not about the mitchell?  Because that’s not on the reg.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Starbird on September 12, 2018, 02:38:03 PM
Hey all, just got my Mitchell today, which also means another ribbon to add to my rack.

What do you all think about short stacking?  Does it look more professional and cleaner overall?  Can it possibly confuse more junior (and sometimes seasoned) cadets when a C/CMSgt has more ribbons than a C/Capt?

Do you recommend it? (especially for comfort since bigger racks tend to get less comfortable)

I personally always do it, unless I have to face a Board of Review.  My personal view is that having a boat load of ribbons on the uniform doesn't really add anything (the cadet promotion ribbons are represented with stripes, circles, and diamonds... do we really need a ribbon for each one as well?) and that it can lead to promoting for the wrong reasons.  And as such I opt to wear as few as possible when I can.  It is also common for me to forgo ribbons on my class B uniform altogether.

And yes, it is certainly more comfortable! :)  As far as I'm concerned, the less frogs pressing into my chest the better, since bigger racks tend to have more fasteners.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Eclipse on September 12, 2018, 05:29:15 PM
CAPM 39-1, Page 112:

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
.

Nothing about Mitchell.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: jeders on September 12, 2018, 05:39:03 PM
In the guide above titled 'The Proper Wear of CAP Ribbons' there are recommendations on short-stacking. It used to be allowed only for seniors but cadets can short stack after they've earned the Mitchell Award.


In the Squidward Service - ahem - the Navy, there are three options for short-stacking ribbons:


Single row of three consisting of the three top decorations and awards.
Three rows of three containing any nine decorations and awards. These must be in the proper order of precedence.
Full stack on service dress uniforms.

Where did you get that not about the mitchell?  Because that’s not on the reg.

Considering how many years (decades) it's been since Chuck was a cadet, I'm guessing that things have changed just a little.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: AlphaSigOU on September 12, 2018, 06:01:05 PM
In the guide above titled 'The Proper Wear of CAP Ribbons' there are recommendations on short-stacking. It used to be allowed only for seniors but cadets can short stack after they've earned the Mitchell Award.


In the Squidward Service - ahem - the Navy, there are three options for short-stacking ribbons:


Single row of three consisting of the three top decorations and awards.
Three rows of three containing any nine decorations and awards. These must be in the proper order of precedence.
Full stack on service dress uniforms.

Where did you get that not about the mitchell?  Because that’s not on the reg.

Considering how many years (decades) it's been since Chuck was a cadet, I'm guessing that things have changed just a little.


Yea, my age is showing as a former cadink!  ;D
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on September 12, 2018, 06:49:47 PM
CAPM 39-1, Page 112:

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
.

Nothing about Mitchell.

What about Milestone awards?
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 12, 2018, 06:53:52 PM
CAPM 39-1, Page 112:

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
.

Nothing about Mitchell.

What about Milestone awards?

What about them? The milestone is a Cadet Program achievement. So as a C/TSgt, you would wear your Rickenbacker ribbon, not your Wright Brothers ribbon.

Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: PHall on September 12, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
CAPM 39-1, Page 112:

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn
.

Nothing about Mitchell.

What about Milestone awards?

What about them? The milestone is a Cadet Program achievement. So as a C/TSgt, you would wear your Rickenbacker ribbon, not your Wright Brothers ribbon.

You wear your highest Cadet Program Achievement ribbon. Same rule the senior members follow.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: SarDragon on September 12, 2018, 07:28:16 PM
I've done it as a senior member. It's one of those things where most people with common sense will (rightly) assume that since you have a Mitchell, you have all the ribbons that came before it.

It is a bit easier.

39-1 will lay out what you're allowed to do. Follow it, and you shouldn't have any problem.

But, but, I have a Mitchell, and I do not have all the prior ribbons. I was never awarded the Curry, because I did my first achievement under the olde program.  ;)
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on September 12, 2018, 10:38:25 PM
I usually don’t wear ribbons or I short-stack on class B’s, it just depends on the occasion for me.

And I recommend wearing all your ribbons on class A’s, it looks neater in my opinion.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: etodd on September 13, 2018, 02:08:52 AM

If anyone is paying attention to your ribbon rack.....


No m'aam! ... its was your "ribbon" rack I was admiring.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: MSG Mac on September 13, 2018, 02:56:43 AM
I've done it as a senior member. It's one of those things where most people with common sense will (rightly) assume that since you have a Mitchell, you have all the ribbons that came before it.

It is a bit easier.

39-1 will lay out what you're allowed to do. Follow it, and you shouldn't have any problem.

But, but, I have a Mitchell, and I do not have all the prior ribbons. I was never awarded the Curry, because I did my first achievement under the olde program.  ;)

Wear the Red Traing Ribbon-if you can find one.:)
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: SarDragon on September 13, 2018, 03:37:16 AM
Red Training ribbon came after  satisfactorily completing Achievement One of the Phase II cadet training program.

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Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on September 13, 2018, 07:09:12 AM
I've done it as a senior member. It's one of those things where most people with common sense will (rightly) assume that since you have a Mitchell, you have all the ribbons that came before it.

It is a bit easier.

39-1 will lay out what you're allowed to do. Follow it, and you shouldn't have any problem.

But, but, I have a Mitchell, and I do not have all the prior ribbons. I was never awarded the Curry, because I did my first achievement under the olde program.  ;)

You have what was considered at THAT  time as the equivalent thereof. At THIS time there are only old-timers who even remember. Besides, as a Mitchell holder, you’ll never wear either a Red Training Ribbon or a Curry anyway.


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Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on September 13, 2018, 07:10:14 AM
I've done it as a senior member. It's one of those things where most people with common sense will (rightly) assume that since you have a Mitchell, you have all the ribbons that came before it.

It is a bit easier.

39-1 will lay out what you're allowed to do. Follow it, and you shouldn't have any problem.

But, but, I have a Mitchell, and I do not have all the prior ribbons. I was never awarded the Curry, because I did my first achievement under the olde program.  ;)

Wear the Red Traing Ribbon-if you can find one.:)

He can’t. He can wear his “highest,” which, in his case, is the Mitchell.


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Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 13, 2018, 03:59:59 PM

If anyone is paying attention to your ribbon rack.....


No m'aam! ... its was your "ribbon" rack I was admiring.

100,000 push-ups for you.

Ready? Exercise.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on September 14, 2018, 04:01:27 AM
I usually don’t wear ribbons or I short-stack on class B’s, it just depends on the occasion for me.
And I recommend wearing all your ribbons on class A’s, it looks neater in my opinion.

Mine don't fit, even if I do 4 across.  It makes the coat uncomfortable and I find myself talking with a Russian accent.

Drop the rocketry badge and the marksmanship award, change cadet Col to senior Major, and I would look like this.  I actually have more, but the observer wings can't go above the lapel notch.

I was trying to think up some funny comment about that being in the regulations as paragraph 11.1.1.1.1. but its late.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg/220px-Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg)
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on September 14, 2018, 06:53:07 AM
I usually don’t wear ribbons or I short-stack on class B’s, it just depends on the occasion for me.
And I recommend wearing all your ribbons on class A’s, it looks neater in my opinion.

Mine don't fit, even if I do 4 across.  It makes the coat uncomfortable and I find myself talking with a Russian accent.

Drop the rocketry badge and the marksmanship award, change cadet Col to senior Major, and I would look like this.  I actually have more, but the observer wings can't go above the lapel notch.

I was trying to think up some funny comment about that being in the regulations as paragraph 11.1.1.1.1. but its late.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg/220px-Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg)


 As a Major you wouldn’t look like that at all. You’d lose about a dozen or so right off the bat.



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Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: PHall on September 14, 2018, 03:29:11 PM
I usually don’t wear ribbons or I short-stack on class B’s, it just depends on the occasion for me.
And I recommend wearing all your ribbons on class A’s, it looks neater in my opinion.

Mine don't fit, even if I do 4 across.  It makes the coat uncomfortable and I find myself talking with a Russian accent.

Drop the rocketry badge and the marksmanship award, change cadet Col to senior Major, and I would look like this.  I actually have more, but the observer wings can't go above the lapel notch.

I was trying to think up some funny comment about that being in the regulations as paragraph 11.1.1.1.1. but its late.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg/220px-Civil_Air_Patrol_Awards_and_Decorations.jpg)


 As a Major Captain you wouldn’t look like that at all. You’d lose about a dozen or so right off the bat.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on September 14, 2018, 05:11:19 PM
As a Major you wouldn’t look like that at all. You’d lose about a dozen or so right off the bat.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am aware this is a photo of a cadet uniform.  The only ones I now have in common with this picture would be the Encampment, CAC & Mitchell.  They are, however, the same size.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on September 14, 2018, 05:14:42 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Eclipse on September 14, 2018, 05:17:50 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on September 14, 2018, 05:19:29 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.

Ok. But what about the service coat?
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Eclipse on September 14, 2018, 05:29:39 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.

Ok. But what about the service coat?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 17, 2018, 02:51:50 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.

Ok. But what about the service coat?

The uniform standard didn't change just because your duty of the day changed.

Color Guards can be conducted in Class A, Class B, or utilities. The uniform standards that apply to each of those uniforms during a normal unit meeting apply when you're performing a Color Guard detail.

And don't confuse Color Guard with Honor Guard.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on September 17, 2018, 03:21:32 PM
So if you are a part of a color guard wearing a service coat must you wear all your ribbons or can you short stack?

You can still reduce your ribbons as per 39-1.  Being on a CG doesn't change that.

Ok. But what about the service coat?

The uniform standard didn't change just because your duty of the day changed.

Color Guards can be conducted in Class A, Class B, or utilities. The uniform standards that apply to each of those uniforms during a normal unit meeting apply when you're performing a Color Guard detail.

And don't confuse Color Guard with Honor Guard.

I wasn't confusing them, I was just wondering how the ribbon stacking differs between the two. (If at all) Also, what is the difference between Class A and B uniforms and the differences between them?
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 17, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
I wasn't confusing them, I was just wondering how the ribbon stacking differs between the two. (If at all) Also, what is the difference between Class A and B uniforms and the differences between them?

No worries. It wasn't an accusation, just a reminder.

Class A = Service Dress (blues with the service coat - "dress blues")

Class B = Service Uniform (short sleeve or long sleeve blues without the service coat)

^ CAP/Air Force variations at least.
Each military branch has their own distinction for Class X service uniforms (some have a C...some have summer/winter/tropical variations...I'm partial to service khakis myself  ;D).

Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on September 17, 2018, 03:33:29 PM
I wasn't confusing them, I was just wondering how the ribbon stacking differs between the two. (If at all) Also, what is the difference between Class A and B uniforms and the differences between them?

No worries. It wasn't an accusation, just a reminder.

Class A = Service Dress (blues with the service coat - "dress blues")

Class B = Service Uniform (short sleeve or long sleeve blues without the service coat)

^ CAP/Air Force variations at least.
Each military branch has their own distinction for Class X service uniforms (some have a C...some have summer/winter/tropical variations...I'm partial to service khakis myself  ;D).

So the ribbon stacking doesn't differ between Class A and Class B?
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Eclipse on September 17, 2018, 04:02:26 PM
No. It is the same.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: Jester on September 17, 2018, 07:14:42 PM
Only real difference between the shirt and the coat is you can go with rows of 4 on the coat if you want, the shirt is restricted to rows of 3.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 17, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
I wasn't confusing them, I was just wondering how the ribbon stacking differs between the two. (If at all) Also, what is the difference between Class A and B uniforms and the differences between them?

No worries. It wasn't an accusation, just a reminder.

Class A = Service Dress (blues with the service coat - "dress blues")

Class B = Service Uniform (short sleeve or long sleeve blues without the service coat)

^ CAP/Air Force variations at least.
Each military branch has their own distinction for Class X service uniforms (some have a C...some have summer/winter/tropical variations...I'm partial to service khakis myself  ;D).

So the ribbon stacking doesn't differ between Class A and Class B?

Ribbons are mandatory on the Class A service coat. They are optional on the Class B shirt.

If you wear ribbons on Class As, you can short-stack it. If you wear ribbons on Class Bs, you can short-stack it.

If you choose to wear Class As, you must wear ribbons on the service coat. I recommend not wearing them underneath on the shirt.

If you choose to wear Class Bs, you can go without ribbons. If you choose to go with ribbons, you can wear all, or short-stack.

The only ribbons you can decide to take off, when short-stacking, are your Cadet Program achievement ribbons (Curry, Feik, Mitchell, etc.). The "CAP Achievement Award" is an award, not a Cadet Program achievement. So you must wear everything else if you choose to short-stack; only remove the Cadet Program achievements below your highest rank. If you earned any devices (subsequent awards, etc.), then you must wear those on the ribbon... now, who's really going to know that you earned two versus one? Nobody, really. But Integrity is a Core Value. Remember that.

If you wear the service coat, and the collar lapel covers the ribbons, they align to the right when stacked (and as Jester said, you can wear a row of 4 instead of 3; I prefer 3 myself). If you are wearing the service coat, and the lapel does not cover the ribbons, then you center the top ribbons. If you wear Class Bs, center the ribbons.


Again, my preference is to not wear any. That's your call. if you wear them, I would suggest you short-stack, just because the more stuff you have on, the more there is to go haywire. But that's just me. You do you.

Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: mdickinson on September 21, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
What about Milestone awards?
What about them? The milestone is a Cadet Program achievement. So as a C/TSgt, you would wear your Rickenbacker ribbon, not your Wright Brothers ribbon.
You wear your highest Cadet Program Achievement ribbon. Same rule the senior members follow.

What “rule the senior members follow”??

(a) there is no rule about seniors short-stacking. There is a ribbon+device height limit, but beyond that no rule - only one sentence saying we are "encouraged" (:o) to choose our prof.dev. ribbons as the first to go. (See attached snip from M39-1.)

(b) when have senior members ever followed a rule - especially one regarding uniform wear?!  ;D

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180921/3e16c0702b4924f1c83d89d74942becb.png)
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: PHall on September 21, 2018, 03:52:29 PM
What about Milestone awards?
What about them? The milestone is a Cadet Program achievement. So as a C/TSgt, you would wear your Rickenbacker ribbon, not your Wright Brothers ribbon.
You wear your highest Cadet Program Achievement ribbon. Same rule the senior members follow.

What “rule the senior members follow”??

(a) there is no rule about seniors short-stacking. There is a ribbon+device height limit, but beyond that no rule - only one sentence saying we are "encouraged" (:o) to choose our prof.dev. ribbons as the first to go. (See attached snip from M39-1.)

(b) when have senior members ever followed a rule - especially one regarding uniform wear?!  ;D

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180921/3e16c0702b4924f1c83d89d74942becb.png)


The rule where seniors who are former cadets wear their highest cadet achievement ribbon.
Title: Re: Advice on short stacking?
Post by: mdickinson on September 21, 2018, 04:04:48 PM
You {a cadet} wear your highest Cadet Program Achievement ribbon. Same rule the senior members follow.
What “rule the senior members follow”?? [...]
There is no rule about seniors short-stacking. There is a ribbon+device height limit, but beyond that no rule - only one sentence saying we are "encouraged" (:o) to choose our prof.dev. ribbons as the first to go. (See attached snip from M39-1.)

The rule where seniors who are former cadets wear their highest cadet achievement ribbon.

Ah, now I understand what you meant. "same rule that you will follow after you turn senior, regarding wearing only your highest achievement ribbon." Makes sense.