CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:16:51 PM

Title: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
Alright everyone, I know this usually devolves but the last thread remained civil for quite a while and I'm hoping this one can too. I would like to open up some polite discourse on the future of the CAP AF style utility uniform. I'm pulling some stuff from other threads and adding some new things as well (including reference images) to help out. I've also had some pretty positive discussions with those in my group and wing about some of these issues and I think there were some good points made worthy of sharing.

First to what we know, the ABU is going away. It's been on it's way out for a while, just like the original ACU. It didn't do the job the AF wanted and didn't do it well enough. In order to bring the "utility" back in the USAF's field uniform, they decided to switch to the OCP which in many ways is a superior cut both for fitment, organization, and pattern. Now, I'm not going to discuss patterns so much because they don't really matter to us beyond the fact our parent organization uses them but what I do have is below;

Regardless of your position on color/design preference on ANY uniform;

Now on to some points regarding CAP;

Cons to switching to OCP within a reasonable time (read as sooner rather than later):

Pros to switching to the OCP in a reasonable time:
Now, what would all of this look like? Due to some of the other things I do in the background, I have access to some of the newer uniforms, and am currently sitting with the last 2 CAP AF style field utility uniforms and the current US Army OCP Scorpion W2 that the USAF is swapping to so it's simple enough to slap things around a bit and take a look; (keep note, I would never encourage anyone to wear a non-approved uniform, so please don't go out wearing stuff like this unless we get some kind of national approval. It's only a visual reference so everyone can see what we're talking about.)

(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38405007_330484527493121_8013364137641902080_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d69e2512f7498994801e055e500807d&oe=5C0EC261)
One thing I will note above is the ease of changing nametapes and rank on a uniform. That may be a positive change for cadet squadrons where less sewing will be required.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38467903_241987862985946_3442365731683958784_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d80b97a50b53ea29d0073bcd0b228141&oe=5BD51D36)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38438029_307325973168922_8279640608071483392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=55654101173c4d2045652a01e2b7dbd8&oe=5C0E1EDB)
The OCP is far more comfortable than the ABU's or even BDU's. I loved by BDU's but I've got to say this new one feels like a better fit.The velcro on the arms is fairly large and allows for both a flag patch and another type of heraldry or NCSA patch under it, with a wing patch or other NCSA patch or squadron patch going on the other side.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38503199_314409992634639_2753396803528294400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c4b870580e2c93401da1e5de0fdaa23d&oe=5BC84DFE)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38485163_2121050081440951_4460526654489362432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3be9208dd68de3cb4090f599cf61bcf0&oe=5C0036DE)
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38437683_321579625246390_1275322892812288000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a6293ec319019a1b0f2319e80eaa4ad9&oe=5C064BC9)
Unlike just about any CAP uniform I can think of, the sleeve cuffs are inverted, which hides the nylon button from view and so far I've noticed has reduced snagging. You can see it in the first picture as well. It has a pen pocket of course on the left arm just like the ABU does. The back and arms have a gusseted panel which makes the uniform far more comfortable when reaching or wearing gear.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38521730_349104288960739_6123036481054310400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=2350c6180ea49b5869526fa56f33063b&oe=5C0FAE4E)
The new collar is a nice as well. The pants are pretty standard but there have been some upgrades as well. I can note these in a later post if anyone wants to see. There's also the issue of boots but I know that's going on in another thread currently so I won't touch that yet.

Overall, I think it's probably a good idea to start looking at what we need to do to make the switch and stay in line with the AF. I'm sure this puts a wrench in the works for our current transition, but it'll have to be done eventually (for the above stated reasons).



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 04, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
Can't you wait awhile? I have not finished buying all the BBDUs that I need, and there is still time to wear ABUs.

Wait to post this thread when CAP announces a new uniform.


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 04, 2018, 04:24:56 PM
This will be another opportunity for CAP to adopt it's own, distinctive field uniform,
and get off the USAF carousel of clothing, that CAP will ignore in favor of
affinity and affectation.

CAP does not need a camouflage uniform, for any reason whatsoever, and it
actually decreases mission effectiveness in every phases of CAP operations
except for recruiting, and point is debatable, since the inability of the organization
to enforce its regulations works against the very affinity it seeks.

The rhetoric should be "now's the time to fix this once and for all", not start discussing
how awesome OCPs would be.

It would be kind of nice, however, if the ABU was actually properly authorized before it's
retired, though.  Anyone want to start on pool?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
Can't you wait awhile? I have not finished buying all the BBDUs that I need, and there is still time to wear ABUs.

Wait to post this thread when CAP announces a new uniform.

lol. The whole point was to discuss it prior to any sort of announcement. That includes the issues with timelines, logistics of wearing a uniform the AF will no longer be wearing etc.

This will be another opportunity for CAP to adopt it's own, distinctive field uniform,
and get off the USAF carousel of clothing, that CAP will ignore in favor of
affinity and affectation.

CAP does not need a camouflage uniform, for any reason whatsoever, and it
actually decreases mission effectiveness in every phases of CAP operations
except for recruiting, and point is debatable, since the inability of the organization
to enforce its regulations works against the very affinity it seeks.

The rhetoric should be "now's the time to fix this once and for all", not start discussing
how awesome OCPs would be.

I do understand where you're coming from, but from the discussions I've heard in person, the AF doesn't want us in our own distinctive uniform. I'm trying to steer clear of the camouflage pattern debate though for that very reason. It doesn't really matter what the pattern is, because it's whatever our parent org has.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: EMT-83 on August 04, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
I do understand where you're coming from, but from the discussions I've heard in person, the AF doesn't want us in our own distinctive uniform. I'm trying to steer clear of the camouflage pattern debate though for that very reason. It doesn't really matter what the pattern is, because it's whatever our parent org has.

The "discussions you've heard in person" don't represent the opinion of the Air Force any more than your end the conversation represents the opinion of the Civil Air Patrol.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 04, 2018, 10:23:42 PM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 05, 2018, 10:09:40 AM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 05, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 05, 2018, 10:28:58 AM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 05, 2018, 02:38:07 PM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.
I got mine from the Airmen's Attic.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.

I never owned OG-507s. I was OG-107 until the last! (Of course, by then, they were more “olive grey” than they were “olive green”).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 05, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
As mentioned elsewhere recently, we can't use phrases such as, "The USAF wants" or "The USAF thinks that" because the USAF is an enormous conglomerate conducting a countless number of unique missions. The USAF can't collectively "think" about something any more than CAP can.

Now there are a few folks at the USAF who have the responsibility of caring what we do and how we do it. Unless an opinion comes from those folks, our customers, then we shouldn't care. I also hope those people expect us to make decisions that maximize our abilities to serve them to the best of our ability. Taking this opportunity to select a field uniform that all CAP members can wear, is best designed for the missions we execute, and is cost effective in a volunteer environment is something our USAF partners should expect us to do, not be offended by it.

I'm not suggesting selecting a uniform that meets all of our missions requirements will be easy either. There are some diverse usage requirements between the cadet program and emergency services. Having ground SAR teams in camouflaging colors makes no sense, having a squadron full of cadets in formation in bright orange won't help recruiting. Having separate uniforms for each mission increases the cost to volunteers who do both.

Like I said, it won't be easy. If we start now, moving at CAP speed, we should have an answer in about 5 years. Maybe six. We definitely need to start working on it now.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 06, 2018, 02:34:31 AM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.

More to it than that bro..
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 06, 2018, 01:06:00 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 02:27:27 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 03:09:13 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 03:24:09 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?

It doesn't specifically say that you can't in afi 36-2903 but it also doesn't say you can. So I'd assume that they'd be sew-on, either way I think sewing them on looks better.

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank. Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

And it depends on how fast you work for new ratings  ;)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?

It doesn't specifically say that you can't in afi 36-2903 but it also doesn't say you can. So I'd assume that they'd be sew-on, either way I think sewing them on looks better.

It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 04:11:41 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2018, 04:16:05 PM
I would consider that to be under:
Quote
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank.

and

Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 04:51:05 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.

I guess that'd make sense, still think I'll sew them on instead if/when we get them.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 06, 2018, 05:35:54 PM
Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 06:04:47 PM
Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.

It's not so much about cadets sharing uniforms. I know many of the squadrons in my area has some surplus of uniforms, and it's easy to fit a cadet into them and have them just buy their tapes and slap them on. I've found sometimes it takes a while to get cadets to get their tapes sewn on (which is why I have been offering to do it for my local squadron for about the last 2 years for free.) You could even have VG put a "Cadet ABU Start Kit" on for sale with the cap tape, the blank rank square and nametape.

I don't see it increasing the sewing. I'm seeing us going to using the same tapes currently out there for the fleece for both rank and name / cap tape. Buy a single blank rank patch for NCO's and then the cadet officers simply use the ones for the fleece as well. Slap it on and done. I don't really see a reason to get rid of the metal rank for C/NCO's
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 06, 2018, 07:44:37 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 06, 2018, 07:53:08 PM
Wearing camos for civilian rescue is as ridiculous as it was to wear khaki in the 40's, blue in the 50's, and green in the 60's for civilian search and rescue.

All those colors blend in terrain as well. That is why the military wore them in the first place in the time mentioned. Yet it was done for the CAP / Military connection.

And I have not heard there were concerns in that time.


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 08:10:04 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!

That my friend is why a safety vest is required for SAR missions. Why have a camo uniform when all you're going to do is put bright colors over it? Well those bright colors are only when you go on SAR missions, and when you're at normal meetings or recruiting events it looks "cool" and sparks interest in people, therefore it can be a recruiting tool.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 06, 2018, 09:00:51 PM
It's amazing how people ALWAYS forget about the requirement for the orange vests during ES and ES training activities.
Especially when they're trying to make an argument against wearing some uniform.
And the requirement has only been around for about 30 years or so.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 07, 2018, 11:04:29 AM
Ranger tabs can probably come back too, slap it on one of the sleeve pockets or something.

If that happens I know quite a few people would be happy  :o
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 07, 2018, 11:12:54 AM
therefore it can be a recruiting tool.

That's essentially it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 07, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Over Nametapes & branch tapes that are on with Velcro?  Maybe if you took off the Velcro and sewed the tapes on so it was consistent.

What I was suggesting is that the former pocket patches could be moved to the lower part of those huge sleeve velcros, and the current shoulder patch could still be on there as well.  Putting patches on OCP pockets doesn't look right, at least to me.

Incidentally - the patches normally covered up by the required orange safety vest when in the field - would still be visible.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on August 07, 2018, 03:44:51 PM
-snip-
Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
This is not correct - 5.4.4.2.1. refers to velcro labels on the sleeve of the coat that say "SF," etc.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 07, 2018, 06:52:43 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 07, 2018, 06:55:45 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
They *briefly* had grey uniforms in the late 1940's that actually made sense on a ship, but they ended that fast
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 08, 2018, 06:02:48 AM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
WRT blending with the ocean, the olde blue dungarees weren't any better. If you weren't wearing something brightly colored or reflective, or a light, you were pretty hard to find in the ocean.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: GroundHawg on August 08, 2018, 09:30:03 AM
Honestly, the biggest issue I have with this is that you are using a Pilot G2 in .5 instead of 1.0.... how can stand that tiny fine tip?! I mean I can almost understand a .7 but a .5 is just ridiculous!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 08, 2018, 11:27:06 AM
I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:11:34 PM
I'm really not so concerned with the pattern, it could be navy blue for all I care (although I do like the pattern and I have a ton of other unrelated to CAP gear in multicam which is similar).

What I like, and after speaking with a former CENTCOM Lt Col who's also a current member who had similar feelings, the OCP has the pockets in the right places, they use the right material so it's comfy and won't burn you out in the heat, the pockets are he right size, the sizing options are better etc. It's everything that the Air Force wanted from the start, but politics and a host of other reasons put them and by default US into ABU's.

I never used the lower pockets on the BDU/ABU jacket, but I really see myself using the shoulder pockets on missions where I've got all my other gear on. You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:35:51 PM
I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now.

You sir, are living in 3018.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 08, 2018, 12:41:35 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)

Yeah.... but he better have a CAPID card, his 101 and a proper uniform or I'm not letting him sign into the mission. ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: NIN on August 08, 2018, 02:58:37 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)

Yeah.... but he better have a CAPID card, his 101 and a proper uniform or I'm not letting him sign into the mission. ;D

Or he better be legally obligated to sign a CAPF 9..
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 09, 2018, 08:51:39 PM
I can see why a squirrel would be allowed in a sortie, it knows the terrain better than the members. So terrain navigation. What other things will the squirrel do?


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on August 09, 2018, 09:04:21 PM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: lordmonar on August 09, 2018, 09:27:57 PM
I can see why a squirrel would be allowed in a sortie, it knows the terrain better than the members. So terrain navigation. What other things will the squirrel do?
Squirrels know the secret.    You got to have one on you in case you need to know the secret.    N00bs.   8)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 10, 2018, 01:53:12 AM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...

FIND food? In some places they ARE food.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 10, 2018, 10:06:42 AM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...

FIND food? In some places they ARE food.

Kentucky here: Can confirm.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 11:26:20 AM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 10, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 12:00:49 PM
Because then they can use one set across blues and utilities, which is cheaper overall.

And unless someone can talk Vanguard into making embroidered squares for each grade (and if they can do that maybe the SM NCOs can get the same thing) you’re going to end up pinning rank on the blank square which results in wearing them out faster as the pins break off.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 10, 2018, 12:30:33 PM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.

I think he was referring to continuing to use the metal pins, but place them on the blank blue square and place the rank on the chest same as everyone else.

I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche. That's the only reason I hadnt suggested that. If we went that way though it may be easier and more consistent for everyone.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 12:44:43 PM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.

I think he was referring to continuing to use the metal pins, but place them on the blank blue square and place the rank on the chest same as everyone else.

I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche. That's the only reason I hadnt suggested that. If we went that way though it may be easier and more consistent for everyone.

True, but if you give it a 4-5 year phase-in, those members probably need to be buying new uniforms anyway.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 10, 2018, 01:25:54 PM
I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche.

I wear both, mainly dependent on whether or not I am working with cadets.  The BBDU are more comfortable.

If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 10, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche.

I wear both, mainly dependent on whether or not I am working with cadets.  The BBDU are more comfortable.

If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.

I love how comfy the OCP's are. They definitely were the right choice for the air force and army.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 10, 2018, 02:11:02 PM
If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.

I have them, they are great, I got them from BDU.com a bunch of years ago,
and they were called "TacBUs".

Unfortunayely bdu.com isn't a "thing" anymore, apparently, so I have to find my old order,
or check the tags.

I wear the pants on the bike because of the lower pockets, and use the shirt as a light jacket.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 02:41:50 PM
I just know the F-35 heritage team wears dark blue ACU-style uniforms.  No idea what brand.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CFToaster on August 10, 2018, 04:17:41 PM
Navy blue tops and bottoms on the ACU/OCP pattern are sold by Propper under the Tac.u brand.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: jayleswo on August 10, 2018, 07:35:20 PM
I like the thoughtful discussion on this topic. Rather than comment on whether CAP should adopt the ACU/OCP pattern, I would offer my opinion on some of the uniform accouterments. I do think appearance could be enhanced by adopting the same OCP pattern background for insignia that Army and Air Force wear on this uniform. The navy blue with silver thread we have now for our field uniforms is an improvement over the ultramarine blue with white thread. But, I think it would look odd on OCP. I think the cloth background really should just match the color/pattern of the field uniform. Dark Blue for the BBDU. OCP for the new ACU/OCP uniform.

Distinctiveness from active-duty could be satisfied by simply using white thread for the lettering on the branch and name tapes and other insignia on the OCP pattern background. Grade insignia would be in white (or gold) on OCP with "CAP" above on the grade tab (or blank with metal insignia for Cadets and Cadet Officers). For additional distinctiveness, use the CAP Command Patch (already available with velcro) in full color on one shoulder. Not sure we really an American Flag patch since we don't deploy leaving plenty of space for other patches as needed.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 11, 2018, 01:34:48 PM
I do think appearance could be enhanced by adopting the same OCP pattern background for insignia that Army and Air Force wear on this uniform. The navy blue with silver thread we have now for our field uniforms is an improvement over the ultramarine blue with white thread. But, I think it would look odd on OCP. I think the cloth background really should just match the color/pattern of the field uniform. Dark Blue for the BBDU. OCP for the new ACU/OCP uniform.

That would certainly look good, and professional.  Either that, or at least have the nametapes/CAPtapes  on the OCP uniform be a better blending color, something like olive green, or similar.  The lettering would still be silver/white of course.

I do agree that while the dark (Air Force) blue looks great on the BBDU and BDU woodland pattern, it doesn't quite blend as well with the new OCP pattern.

Having said all that, since CAP just recently changed name tape color a few years ago (which was an improvement)... I reckon that something like this probably wont happen until quite some time in the future.  For now... at least we can all still be happy for the improvement that we've been able to get.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 05:23:43 PM
Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

I'd be on board with that, except I'd go with a different color, like what I suggested on CAP Talk 11 years ago.

Remember this idea from 2007? That was funny...

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15831.0;attach=4742;image)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2018, 05:25:00 PM
Even better, and probably more available than dark blue.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 11, 2018, 07:20:49 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 11, 2018, 07:49:30 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...
It may not look tacti-kool, but it is functional. Some of us are skilled at the sewing necessary to achieve your desired look, but many are not, and do not have financial assets to have the pros do it. Take a look at the CAWG patch, and imagine sewing it onto Velcro pile, and then sewing a correspondingly shaped piece of loop onto the garment. BTDT; reluctant to repeat the experience.

Using heat seal Velcro on the patches alleviates that part of the problem, and rectangles on the garment allow exchanging patches if needed.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 11, 2018, 08:23:28 PM
A  long, very long time ago I used to cut and sew Velcro on a NY Wing patch so I could use the AF blue jacket and coat with my Blues and with my civies for work, etc. Did it by hand. So I know what ya mean. Now I am 63, and do not have the dexterity to thread a needle, nor the vision acuity to see the thread.


So now that I am retired I have to scrape money to get uniforms to tailors. No choice!



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 11, 2018, 09:41:04 PM
(https://s33.postimg.cc/cujy8l5bz/CAP_Blue_OCP.png)

Scaling of badges, etc. are slightly off. It's tough to know how something looks until it's actually worn, rendering don't do things justice. My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch), wing patch or equivalent on the left sleeve, organizational on the right, both velcro backed. Velcro backing optional for the rest. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 10:23:39 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...

That picture was taken with name tapes, GTM bsdge, and rank being set on top of the uniform. They were not sewn nor velcroed. Just like I do on my OCPs, I would sew everything on (except the sleeves).

Just think, if we did this in 2007 like I suggested, we wouldn’t have had to switch to ABUs and we wouldn’t be having this discussion about going to OCPs. This uniform could be timeless.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 10:28:04 PM
My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch)...

I’m not a fan of the American flag either. At the time I did this, CAP had just started wearing reverse flags. Thankfully that was short lived.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 12, 2018, 12:25:13 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 12, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 12, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
I just can't speculate. 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 12, 2018, 05:05:06 PM
(https://s33.postimg.cc/cujy8l5bz/CAP_Blue_OCP.png)

Scaling of badges, etc. are slightly off. It's tough to know how something looks until it's actually worn, rendering don't do things justice. My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch), wing patch or equivalent on the left sleeve, organizational on the right, both velcro backed. Velcro backing optional for the rest.

I'd do the tape on the pocket angles and lose the badges, or put everything on the velcro'ed pockets.
Tapes on the flaps, badges below.

Or better still, a leather namebadge on one of the pockets.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 12, 2018, 05:05:55 PM
It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.

Nah, Indonesia has a lot of excess capacity.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 12, 2018, 09:18:48 PM
It would seem the Air Force has designed smaller versions of the badges when two are worn together, Not a bad idea IMO as it cuts down on the clutter.  (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg) (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 12, 2018, 11:41:54 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 05:48:36 AM
It would seem the Air Force has designed smaller versions of the badges when two are worn together, Not a bad idea IMO as it cuts down on the clutter.  (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg) (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg)

Considering that the General is the Air Force Chief of Staff, it was probably custom made for him. Good to be the King and all that.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 13, 2018, 02:57:26 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 04:00:44 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.

According to everything the Air Force has put out so far, we're going to be wearing the exact same uniform the Army wears.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 13, 2018, 04:09:42 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.

The current Air Force uniform does not include a "loop" patch above the nametape to accommodate a Velcro occupational badge, as the Army uniform does not include this.

Some people sewn on the loop patch so they can attached a hook-backed Velcro occupational/qualification badge that can be removed easily.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 13, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
The current Air Force uniform does not include a "loop" patch above the nametape to accommodate a Velcro occupational badge, as the Army uniform does not include this. Some people sewn on the loop patch so they can attached a hook-backed Velcro occupational/qualification badge that can be removed easily.

The style of this uniform is so different it will require a whole set of new rules.  I'm not even going to guess.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 06:31:43 PM
Most Air Force people I've seen wearing the OCP removed the velcro above the pockets and had sewn on name and branch tapes along with their wings and speciality badges. Which is an option that the wearer can choose.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 13, 2018, 07:14:54 PM
Most Air Force people I've seen wearing the OCP removed the velcro above the pockets and had sewn on name and branch tapes along with their wings and speciality badges. Which is an option that the wearer can choose.

Yup. My name, rank, and badges are all sewn on my OCPs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 13, 2018, 08:58:05 PM
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)

That was never the purpose. When the Nay introduced the uniform, they specifically stated that is was only to hide stains.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 09:06:29 PM
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)

That was never the purpose. When the Nay introduced the uniform, they specifically stated that is was only to hide stains.

There is no such thing as a "clean" ship. Grease and oil are everywhere.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 13, 2018, 09:10:27 PM
Don't think the blue looks very good with OCP camo. I would suggest tan color tapes/rank/cloth backgrounds with some color of darker thread. Tan would be in line with the "different in low light conditions" that the Air Force harped on.

If going with the flag, wear the right hand one. The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Colored squadron ballcaps would be distinctive too, bringing back a little history. Or maybe just a solid complimentary color PC.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 13, 2018, 09:25:09 PM
The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

There's 1MM Chinese kids cranking on US flags in every orientaiton as we speak, and the price is generally the same.
Availibility is not an issue.

I just think it's hilarious that after all the angst and care about removing it, the USAF put it right back on.

One more in the "make a CAP uniform instead of trying to chase the dragon" pile.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 13, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 14, 2018, 12:07:16 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 12:17:48 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?

MAJCOM,  unit, and duty identifiers
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 07:25:13 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

On the OCP? Because according to the latest release of 2903, there isn't supposed to be anything on the pockets.

From AFGM2018-02 (which is included with AFI 36-2903), "Patches or badges will not be affixed to the front pockets."

EDIT: To avoid any further confusion, I was thinking of the front pockets, although I should have specifically stated "front pockets." Sorry for the confusion, my fault entirely.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 07:28:03 AM
The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

There's 1MM Chinese kids cranking on US flags in every orientaiton as we speak, and the price is generally the same.
Availibility is not an issue.

I just think it's hilarious that after all the angst and care about removing it, the USAF put it right back on.

One more in the "make a CAP uniform instead of trying to chase the dragon" pile.

Maybe it could be made in left hand, after thinking about it, just don't see the point of putting it on the left sleeve. Back to the old saying, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 14, 2018, 09:54:10 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?

MAJCOM,  unit, and duty identifiers

I've only seen those on the shoulders, which is where, according to what has been released by the Air Force, is where they're supposed to be worn.
The only patches I've seen on the "pockets" have been cop badges.

But that's just what I have seen. YMMV
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 10:12:50 AM
I think we have a miscommunication here. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
I think we have a miscommunication here.

Yeah, there was some confusion about which "pockets" were being discussed. Personally though, I do like the idea of putting our unit patches/wing patches/NCSA patches on the arms. Don't need to have the flag but it does fit. You could do a Flag and Wing on one side, NCSA or squadron choice for the other arm.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 01:32:50 PM
I think we have a miscommunication here.

Yeah, there was some confusion about which "pockets" were being discussed. Personally though, I do like the idea of putting our unit patches/wing patches/NCSA patches on the arms. Don't need to have the flag but it does fit. You could do a Flag and Wing on one side, NCSA or squadron choice for the other arm.

And that was my fault, I should have said "front" pockets instead of just pockets. After all, sleeve pockets are pockets too.

For the Air Force configuration, seems like the right sleeve pocket is the flag, and higher command, or some type of optional patch. I'd say for a CAP version, wear the flag, and allow either a wing patch, or an NCSA/other type of patch (one or the other, obviously.)

On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

For the front pockets, I think the usual patches on the left would be fine. It's distinctive since the Air Force isn't doing it. On the right, Model Rocketry would be appropriate, especially since the unit patch is elsewhere. Otherwise, leave it blank.

As to other patches, don't know. There would have to be some type of analysis and direction on them. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 01:59:58 PM
Personaly they need to add that the SF/FD badges need to be allowed on the front pockets.  The little SF pseudo brassard deal is not sufficient.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 02:13:14 PM
On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

It's not, but also largely ignored, since there are any number of other Nascar patches allowed.
For years my wing had an approved supplement that allowed Unit insignia and even a couple of local
activity patches on the flight suit(s) until that was explicitly verboten in the regs.

Unit insignia should simply be allowed anywhere other "optional" patches are.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 02:20:24 PM
For the Air Force configuration, seems like the right sleeve pocket is the flag, and higher command, or some type of optional patch. I'd say for a CAP version, wear the flag, and allow either a wing patch, or an NCSA/other type of patch (one or the other, obviously.)

On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

For the front pockets, I think the usual patches on the left would be fine. It's distinctive since the Air Force isn't doing it. On the right, Model Rocketry would be appropriate, especially since the unit patch is elsewhere. Otherwise, leave it blank.

I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines). Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 02:25:36 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 14, 2018, 02:52:26 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.

Group patches are not authorized on the Air Force-style FDU.

CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 03:02:36 PM
^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 03:21:06 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.

Group patches are not authorized on the Air Force-style FDU.

CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.

That's what I was referring to. I should have been more specific. Thank you for clarifying.

^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.

I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 14, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::) 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 04:25:59 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf

Thanks, I was having trouble finding that. I was referring to wear of Group patches on the FDU, not that their existence is prohibited by heraldry. I think that Group patches and unit patches should be authorized for USAF style and Corporate FDU. Unit pride is something that I think is lacking and this potential change with the OCP provides an opportunity to open it up.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 04:26:40 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 04:44:03 PM
Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D

Both literally and figuratively.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 14, 2018, 07:27:13 PM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 09:07:21 AM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

I've seen that, too. Although, at the time it was a tab. It looked a little odd with just the tab, no Civil Air Patrol patch. And it was the region commander wearing it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 15, 2018, 09:45:48 AM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

It may have been intentional in draft form, but it obviously never made it through.  Thus, it should have been removed in final draft form.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
8.3.4.2. Right Breast Pocket. The CAP Command Patch will be worn centered above the
right breast pocket directly opposite the nametag.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
The CFDU will only be worn with the accoutrements and outergarments outlined in this
chapter.

No such exceptions existed for the March 2005 or the July 1997 uniform manuals. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 15, 2018, 09:58:45 AM
The July 1997 manual had some of the best models.  I may be slightly biased.  Also, that one guy totally needed a haircut. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 10:51:55 AM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 02:17:40 PM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 15, 2018, 02:36:13 PM
Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")

(https://s8.postimg.cc/nvoc3scit/numbers.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.


So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 15, 2018, 03:06:43 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 04:14:23 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?

We might be going in circles over something that we're in cohorts of.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 05:07:12 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?

It was more a clarification of the above post, but since we're discussing what would go on the OCP sleeves, I suppose you could call it a wish list. This would be in line with how the USAF is doing their patches with some minor tweeks for CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 07:13:35 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

I could work with that. Looking at that table, most of the things with "L/RP = On Left or Right Pocket" or "RS = Right Sleeve" for the BDU might be good candidates for the right sleeve pocket of OCP.

Although, I don't have any of the quals mentioned, I would be delighted to see people that earned them be able to wear them. (Of course, it's Velcro. You can always just pull it off if someone whines.)

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")

Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 15, 2018, 07:33:36 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 16, 2018, 02:23:57 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 16, 2018, 09:22:18 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)

And by the time it comes out, it'll include the OCPs. (Yeah, that long.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 17, 2018, 12:48:49 AM
Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 17, 2018, 12:02:10 PM
Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.

I know several people who are involved in it, and I know they are as frustrated with all this as anyone. They put a lot of work into getting the ABU ready and as soon as they get it out there the AF goes to OCP. Couple that with the constant attention and questions and I can surely see why they may not want to out themselves on here.

OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them. I can promise you that. I started the thread though to get the wheels turning on a plan of action and see what everyone has to say about it's wear. May help those who can actually do the thing to put it together and get a plan started.

I've been noting what all is said and have a "working draft" of a set of wear instructions loosely based on the ABU instructions & the Air Force's wear instructions with a CAP emphasis. Maybe it can be sent up in Memorandum and added at a later date.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 17, 2018, 02:54:00 PM
A good chunk of the Air Force already has their OCP's. Anyone who has deployed to the sand in the past 5 years should still have them.
OCP's are already in production and will ramp up as the Air Force has their contractor switch from making ABU's to OCP's.
So the deployment of this uniform should go pretty quick. Basically a test to see how well the procurement and AAFES can work together.
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2018, 04:24:28 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.

I think this is a pretty logical assumption.

OCPs are pretty widely available now. ABUs will die off fairly quick. Because of the cross-branch use, you'll see a lot more sources to get them from. ABUs, being so distinct from UCP/ACUs, were often a challenge depending on where you were shopping through. OCPs have been easy to get for some time.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 17, 2018, 06:15:09 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
   Hey doc good explanation on your last post and your contacts. I am looking at this as the sooner the change is made, the better will be since the ABU is very unpopular including between the AF folks and some members in the CAP.

     I do understand their are very respectable individuals in this thread and forum , however, some of you are speculator and other are the deal makers. Let National put this thing to rest. I believe, National should do a white letter explaining they are looking at this problem set or no changes will be made. I do believe that will a peace some members.

    Furthermore, even thought is a change for the air force, is also a big gamble for our corporation since we just spend a lots of money on the last change.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Ned on August 17, 2018, 06:41:22 PM
Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 17, 2018, 06:44:20 PM
Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things
Thanks, Ned.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: etodd on August 17, 2018, 07:57:52 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 17, 2018, 08:06:24 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 :D :D :D :D

Agreed :D :D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 08:30:53 AM
Yeah, but some members have gotten the example from Ma Blue and the sister branches, and now they want to show the behavior...


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 10:48:05 AM
OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them.

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes? Right sleeve option? Not sure if there's really enough room for it over the nametape on OCPs.

Velcro on the sleeve could actually prove handy. Show up to mission base with ES patch on, change the patch to something that reflects your assignment. (If you're communicator qualified, pull off ES patch, put on commo patch, for example.)

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards. There's precedence for such things in both the Army and Air Force. Just have a batch of them at the mission base, people get assigned to positions, they slap on a brassard. It would also be a handy way to close out mission base, "Hey, we don't have the MRO brassard back, is someone still on the radio?" Make it a practice to turn it in when you sign out.

Just some additional thoughts.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 12:21:15 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.
They have their uses. Cadets tend to be pretty proud to earn them, and they earn the patch before they get anything else. They're not mandatory, but it's a good patch to be wearing when you get to a mission base.

Size wise, the current Goofy patch is probably too big to put over a nametag. I'm thinking to place it on the right sleeve under the flag, or else size it down to something that would fit over a nametape. (Just allowing it on the sleeve would be a lot easier than resizing.)

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.
Haven't seen the CAWG ones, so don't have any frame of reference on them. I'm just thinking that duty position identifiers during a mission would be useful, with the stipulation that they come off after the mission (or SAREX.) They don't need to be worn anyplace other than there.

I'm sure we could come up with something that wouldn't look ridiculous. Something with practical purpose shouldn't be garish.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 12:45:00 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ig53cij8l/brassard.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/6426z1xyt/brassard2.jpg)

I swear I've seen them worn with blues as well, but could not find a quick photo.  I purposely trimmed out
the wearer's identity as it's not their fault they are just doing what they are told.

Why do people need "position identifiers" in CAP?  Is there ever any confusion over who is doing what at a base
that can't be solved by asking?

I've seen so much time and effort wasted over vests, tags, chairs, t-shirts, hats, especially hats, everyone wants a hat.

Q: Where's the CUL?

A: Over by the radios.

Q: Where is the IC?

A: In the ICP.

Q: Who is my Flight Commander?

A: The person standing there telling you what to do...

Etc., etc.

I suppose in a public ES environment with hundreds of people who don't know each
other there is justification beyond supporting Indonesia and FEMA grants, but in a CAP
context, if you don't know who these people are, you either don't need to, or you were not paying attention.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 01:11:11 PM
So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors. Assuming that CAP is sent to work where other agencies are using the ICS structure, you still will not use them?

Ev en among us, there is still need to know the ICS positions.

Members arrive after a briefing is made, and are told to report to the CUL. So they go over there and find, as some wings do, four radios one for CC1, another for CC2, another Air 1, and Air 2. Each one with an operator and a captain standing over. They report to the Captain thinking he is the CUL however the CUL is really operating a radio because of X reason. 

The IC of Event XYZ is going to the CAP member with the highest grade thinking that is our IC when in fact he is I don't know, a CUL?

I think the ICS identifier idea is great.



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ig53cij8l/brassard.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/6426z1xyt/brassard2.jpg)


I agree, those are kind of hideous.

I think the ICS identifier idea is great.

I wasn't really thinking ICS identifiers, but may not be a bad idea.

The Army and the Air Force have a simple "patch" type of identifier that is worn on the top of the left sleeve pocket, we could do the same thing.

In the bandying about ideas earlier, we haven't really identified anything for that position, just wearing a unit patch. Still plenty of area left. But, I would definitely make it clear that it's not a free for all section of the uniform. Authorized patches only, only in specific settings. No "That Guy," or "Secret Squirrel" types of joke/novelty tabs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: arajca on August 18, 2018, 01:32:43 PM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 18, 2018, 02:13:31 PM
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 18, 2018, 02:55:48 PM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

 ::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 03:00:06 PM
So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors.

? This is about fancy clothes, not ICS identifiers, per se.

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.

I have never been to any mission, no mater the scale, where I couldn't figure out, quickly,
who was doing what, and generally the only missions using vests and other accouterments are evals.

The rest go off with uniforms, which include a lot of screened golf shirts that don't even have names on them.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 04:53:07 PM
Quote
From Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.




Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 05:33:30 PM
Quote
From Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.

What "others"?

The vast majority of CAP ES activities don't even have an ICP, per se, those that do, the vast majority of them
is CAP personnel only.

If CAP is involved in a larger-scale activity where they are integrated into another agency's ICP, then it's on that agency to
provide the identifying garments or badges, not CAP to bring their own.

In that case, a CAP-IC would not be "the" IC, and they would not wear the "of record" vest / whatever anyway.

Back in the CAP real world, there should not be randos walking around trying to figure out who is doing what
based soley on a vest or badge.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 19, 2018, 07:52:14 AM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

 ::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.

Not sure why you think that kind of response is appropriate.

The Army created the uniform, the Air Force decided to adopt the Army uniform later. It's pretty reasonable that soldiers should be outfitted first. The late comers should have to wait.

Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.

good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: arajca on August 19, 2018, 10:21:42 AM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.
Can it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

Quote
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 19, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
Can it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

It could be, especially if there's a rewrite (and re-numbering) due on the uniform pub. Don't know if they really need to illustrate every single brassard, maybe show a couple and then list the additional ones authorized.

Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

I think I remember that. Don't remember specifics. You had posted about it here, right?

I think that might be even better than a patch. We could stick Goofy in the middle of a badge, maintain some history. (I'm only joking. I would consider it though, if there was enough interest.)

Still got those drawings? I don't remember off hand what they looked like.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 19, 2018, 05:27:19 PM
Quote
Quote
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

When it comes to the service & field uniforms worn by the military and most other agencies nowdays... an ES badge does seem to be much more appropriate.

Or here's an idea... if the powers at be (and members) still desire it to be some type of patch... then just create a more modern/updated patch that looks more professional.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 19, 2018, 05:38:53 PM
That being said... the goofy/pluto patch could still be sold & encouraged as an informal patch... for CAP members to wear on other (non-uniform) clothing (jackets, etc)... then the history of the patch would be allowed to live on (even if in a more informal way).

(yes I do believe history "has it's place"... and it's more than fine if people want to preserve & remember heritage in some way).