CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:16:51 PM

Title: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
Alright everyone, I know this usually devolves but the last thread remained civil for quite a while and I'm hoping this one can too. I would like to open up some polite discourse on the future of the CAP AF style utility uniform. I'm pulling some stuff from other threads and adding some new things as well (including reference images) to help out. I've also had some pretty positive discussions with those in my group and wing about some of these issues and I think there were some good points made worthy of sharing.

First to what we know, the ABU is going away. It's been on it's way out for a while, just like the original ACU. It didn't do the job the AF wanted and didn't do it well enough. In order to bring the "utility" back in the USAF's field uniform, they decided to switch to the OCP which in many ways is a superior cut both for fitment, organization, and pattern. Now, I'm not going to discuss patterns so much because they don't really matter to us beyond the fact our parent organization uses them but what I do have is below;

Regardless of your position on color/design preference on ANY uniform;

Now on to some points regarding CAP;

Cons to switching to OCP within a reasonable time (read as sooner rather than later):

Pros to switching to the OCP in a reasonable time:
Now, what would all of this look like? Due to some of the other things I do in the background, I have access to some of the newer uniforms, and am currently sitting with the last 2 CAP AF style field utility uniforms and the current US Army OCP Scorpion W2 that the USAF is swapping to so it's simple enough to slap things around a bit and take a look; (keep note, I would never encourage anyone to wear a non-approved uniform, so please don't go out wearing stuff like this unless we get some kind of national approval. It's only a visual reference so everyone can see what we're talking about.)

(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38405007_330484527493121_8013364137641902080_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d69e2512f7498994801e055e500807d&oe=5C0EC261)
One thing I will note above is the ease of changing nametapes and rank on a uniform. That may be a positive change for cadet squadrons where less sewing will be required.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38467903_241987862985946_3442365731683958784_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d80b97a50b53ea29d0073bcd0b228141&oe=5BD51D36)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38438029_307325973168922_8279640608071483392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=55654101173c4d2045652a01e2b7dbd8&oe=5C0E1EDB)
The OCP is far more comfortable than the ABU's or even BDU's. I loved by BDU's but I've got to say this new one feels like a better fit.The velcro on the arms is fairly large and allows for both a flag patch and another type of heraldry or NCSA patch under it, with a wing patch or other NCSA patch or squadron patch going on the other side.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38503199_314409992634639_2753396803528294400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c4b870580e2c93401da1e5de0fdaa23d&oe=5BC84DFE)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38485163_2121050081440951_4460526654489362432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3be9208dd68de3cb4090f599cf61bcf0&oe=5C0036DE)
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38437683_321579625246390_1275322892812288000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a6293ec319019a1b0f2319e80eaa4ad9&oe=5C064BC9)
Unlike just about any CAP uniform I can think of, the sleeve cuffs are inverted, which hides the nylon button from view and so far I've noticed has reduced snagging. You can see it in the first picture as well. It has a pen pocket of course on the left arm just like the ABU does. The back and arms have a gusseted panel which makes the uniform far more comfortable when reaching or wearing gear.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38521730_349104288960739_6123036481054310400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=2350c6180ea49b5869526fa56f33063b&oe=5C0FAE4E)
The new collar is a nice as well. The pants are pretty standard but there have been some upgrades as well. I can note these in a later post if anyone wants to see. There's also the issue of boots but I know that's going on in another thread currently so I won't touch that yet.

Overall, I think it's probably a good idea to start looking at what we need to do to make the switch and stay in line with the AF. I'm sure this puts a wrench in the works for our current transition, but it'll have to be done eventually (for the above stated reasons).



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 04, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
Can't you wait awhile? I have not finished buying all the BBDUs that I need, and there is still time to wear ABUs.

Wait to post this thread when CAP announces a new uniform.


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 04, 2018, 04:24:56 PM
This will be another opportunity for CAP to adopt it's own, distinctive field uniform,
and get off the USAF carousel of clothing, that CAP will ignore in favor of
affinity and affectation.

CAP does not need a camouflage uniform, for any reason whatsoever, and it
actually decreases mission effectiveness in every phases of CAP operations
except for recruiting, and point is debatable, since the inability of the organization
to enforce its regulations works against the very affinity it seeks.

The rhetoric should be "now's the time to fix this once and for all", not start discussing
how awesome OCPs would be.

It would be kind of nice, however, if the ABU was actually properly authorized before it's
retired, though.  Anyone want to start on pool?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
Can't you wait awhile? I have not finished buying all the BBDUs that I need, and there is still time to wear ABUs.

Wait to post this thread when CAP announces a new uniform.

lol. The whole point was to discuss it prior to any sort of announcement. That includes the issues with timelines, logistics of wearing a uniform the AF will no longer be wearing etc.

This will be another opportunity for CAP to adopt it's own, distinctive field uniform,
and get off the USAF carousel of clothing, that CAP will ignore in favor of
affinity and affectation.

CAP does not need a camouflage uniform, for any reason whatsoever, and it
actually decreases mission effectiveness in every phases of CAP operations
except for recruiting, and point is debatable, since the inability of the organization
to enforce its regulations works against the very affinity it seeks.

The rhetoric should be "now's the time to fix this once and for all", not start discussing
how awesome OCPs would be.

I do understand where you're coming from, but from the discussions I've heard in person, the AF doesn't want us in our own distinctive uniform. I'm trying to steer clear of the camouflage pattern debate though for that very reason. It doesn't really matter what the pattern is, because it's whatever our parent org has.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: EMT-83 on August 04, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
I do understand where you're coming from, but from the discussions I've heard in person, the AF doesn't want us in our own distinctive uniform. I'm trying to steer clear of the camouflage pattern debate though for that very reason. It doesn't really matter what the pattern is, because it's whatever our parent org has.

The "discussions you've heard in person" don't represent the opinion of the Air Force any more than your end the conversation represents the opinion of the Civil Air Patrol.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 04, 2018, 10:23:42 PM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 05, 2018, 10:09:40 AM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 05, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 05, 2018, 10:28:58 AM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 05, 2018, 02:38:07 PM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.
I got mine from the Airmen's Attic.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
The ABU is the most uncomfortable uniform ever. I miss the old, old plain OD 'fatigues' that we used to wear.

Are you wearing the "original" design that we got for free or the much more comfy Ripstop ABU's?
There is a big difference, at least to me.


And yes I miss the OG-507 Fatigues too.

I never owned OG-507s. I was OG-107 until the last! (Of course, by then, they were more “olive grey” than they were “olive green”).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 05, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
As mentioned elsewhere recently, we can't use phrases such as, "The USAF wants" or "The USAF thinks that" because the USAF is an enormous conglomerate conducting a countless number of unique missions. The USAF can't collectively "think" about something any more than CAP can.

Now there are a few folks at the USAF who have the responsibility of caring what we do and how we do it. Unless an opinion comes from those folks, our customers, then we shouldn't care. I also hope those people expect us to make decisions that maximize our abilities to serve them to the best of our ability. Taking this opportunity to select a field uniform that all CAP members can wear, is best designed for the missions we execute, and is cost effective in a volunteer environment is something our USAF partners should expect us to do, not be offended by it.

I'm not suggesting selecting a uniform that meets all of our missions requirements will be easy either. There are some diverse usage requirements between the cadet program and emergency services. Having ground SAR teams in camouflaging colors makes no sense, having a squadron full of cadets in formation in bright orange won't help recruiting. Having separate uniforms for each mission increases the cost to volunteers who do both.

Like I said, it won't be easy. If we start now, moving at CAP speed, we should have an answer in about 5 years. Maybe six. We definitely need to start working on it now.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 06, 2018, 02:34:31 AM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.

More to it than that bro..
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 06, 2018, 01:06:00 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 02:27:27 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 03:09:13 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 03:24:09 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?

It doesn't specifically say that you can't in afi 36-2903 but it also doesn't say you can. So I'd assume that they'd be sew-on, either way I think sewing them on looks better.

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank. Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

And it depends on how fast you work for new ratings  ;)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
The large Velcro sleeve patches would make up for the loss of the pockets.  You could actually put two patches on each side, and for those with more than that, its Velcro!  You could wear different patches every time.

I can't say it'd really be a loss of pockets as I'd be more likely to use the pockets on the sleeves for things like cell phones, small items etc, than I've ever been to use the lower pockets on the ABU/BDU top.

But I do agree, with the large panels, it makes some things easier to do like change out wing/unit/NCSA/other patches. You could even make the argument that we'd see better use of surplus uniforms being able to be recycled because the nametapes and ranks would also be velcro. Constant sewing would basically be eliminated for cadet officers. I will say though, I REALLY like the idea of throwing unit patches on the arms, maybe below the flag (if we went back to wearing it) and then wing patch on the other side or NCSA patch.

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Well sure, but how often do you change/upgrade your badges? I'm not sure so I'd have to look but isn't it optional to sew or velcro those on too?

It doesn't specifically say that you can't in afi 36-2903 but it also doesn't say you can. So I'd assume that they'd be sew-on, either way I think sewing them on looks better.

It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 04:11:41 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 06, 2018, 04:16:05 PM
I would consider that to be under:
Quote
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank.

and

Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 04:51:05 PM
It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.

I guess that'd make sense, still think I'll sew them on instead if/when we get them.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 06, 2018, 05:35:54 PM
Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 06, 2018, 06:04:47 PM
Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.

It's not so much about cadets sharing uniforms. I know many of the squadrons in my area has some surplus of uniforms, and it's easy to fit a cadet into them and have them just buy their tapes and slap them on. I've found sometimes it takes a while to get cadets to get their tapes sewn on (which is why I have been offering to do it for my local squadron for about the last 2 years for free.) You could even have VG put a "Cadet ABU Start Kit" on for sale with the cap tape, the blank rank square and nametape.

I don't see it increasing the sewing. I'm seeing us going to using the same tapes currently out there for the fleece for both rank and name / cap tape. Buy a single blank rank patch for NCO's and then the cadet officers simply use the ones for the fleece as well. Slap it on and done. I don't really see a reason to get rid of the metal rank for C/NCO's
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 06, 2018, 07:44:37 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 06, 2018, 07:53:08 PM
Wearing camos for civilian rescue is as ridiculous as it was to wear khaki in the 40's, blue in the 50's, and green in the 60's for civilian search and rescue.

All those colors blend in terrain as well. That is why the military wore them in the first place in the time mentioned. Yet it was done for the CAP / Military connection.

And I have not heard there were concerns in that time.


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 06, 2018, 08:10:04 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!

That my friend is why a safety vest is required for SAR missions. Why have a camo uniform when all you're going to do is put bright colors over it? Well those bright colors are only when you go on SAR missions, and when you're at normal meetings or recruiting events it looks "cool" and sparks interest in people, therefore it can be a recruiting tool.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 06, 2018, 09:00:51 PM
It's amazing how people ALWAYS forget about the requirement for the orange vests during ES and ES training activities.
Especially when they're trying to make an argument against wearing some uniform.
And the requirement has only been around for about 30 years or so.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on August 07, 2018, 11:04:29 AM
Ranger tabs can probably come back too, slap it on one of the sleeve pockets or something.

If that happens I know quite a few people would be happy  :o
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 07, 2018, 11:12:54 AM
therefore it can be a recruiting tool.

That's essentially it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 07, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Over Nametapes & branch tapes that are on with Velcro?  Maybe if you took off the Velcro and sewed the tapes on so it was consistent.

What I was suggesting is that the former pocket patches could be moved to the lower part of those huge sleeve velcros, and the current shoulder patch could still be on there as well.  Putting patches on OCP pockets doesn't look right, at least to me.

Incidentally - the patches normally covered up by the required orange safety vest when in the field - would still be visible.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on August 07, 2018, 03:44:51 PM
-snip-
Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
This is not correct - 5.4.4.2.1. refers to velcro labels on the sleeve of the coat that say "SF," etc.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: OldGuy on August 07, 2018, 06:52:43 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 07, 2018, 06:55:45 PM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
They *briefly* had grey uniforms in the late 1940's that actually made sense on a ship, but they ended that fast
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 08, 2018, 06:02:48 AM
Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
WRT blending with the ocean, the olde blue dungarees weren't any better. If you weren't wearing something brightly colored or reflective, or a light, you were pretty hard to find in the ocean.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: GroundHawg on August 08, 2018, 09:30:03 AM
Honestly, the biggest issue I have with this is that you are using a Pilot G2 in .5 instead of 1.0.... how can stand that tiny fine tip?! I mean I can almost understand a .7 but a .5 is just ridiculous!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 08, 2018, 11:27:06 AM
I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:11:34 PM
I'm really not so concerned with the pattern, it could be navy blue for all I care (although I do like the pattern and I have a ton of other unrelated to CAP gear in multicam which is similar).

What I like, and after speaking with a former CENTCOM Lt Col who's also a current member who had similar feelings, the OCP has the pockets in the right places, they use the right material so it's comfy and won't burn you out in the heat, the pockets are he right size, the sizing options are better etc. It's everything that the Air Force wanted from the start, but politics and a host of other reasons put them and by default US into ABU's.

I never used the lower pockets on the BDU/ABU jacket, but I really see myself using the shoulder pockets on missions where I've got all my other gear on. You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:35:51 PM
I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now.

You sir, are living in 3018.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 08, 2018, 12:41:35 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 08, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)

Yeah.... but he better have a CAPID card, his 101 and a proper uniform or I'm not letting him sign into the mission. ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: NIN on August 08, 2018, 02:58:37 PM
You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.

Plus room for a tactical squirrel...

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K49mtYS2B88/maxresdefault.jpg)

Yeah.... but he better have a CAPID card, his 101 and a proper uniform or I'm not letting him sign into the mission. ;D

Or he better be legally obligated to sign a CAPF 9..
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 09, 2018, 08:51:39 PM
I can see why a squirrel would be allowed in a sortie, it knows the terrain better than the members. So terrain navigation. What other things will the squirrel do?


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on August 09, 2018, 09:04:21 PM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: lordmonar on August 09, 2018, 09:27:57 PM
I can see why a squirrel would be allowed in a sortie, it knows the terrain better than the members. So terrain navigation. What other things will the squirrel do?
Squirrels know the secret.    You got to have one on you in case you need to know the secret.    N00bs.   8)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 10, 2018, 01:53:12 AM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...

FIND food? In some places they ARE food.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 10, 2018, 10:06:42 AM
Squirrels can find food buried beneath a foot of snow, so maybe...

FIND food? In some places they ARE food.

Kentucky here: Can confirm.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 11:26:20 AM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 10, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 12:00:49 PM
Because then they can use one set across blues and utilities, which is cheaper overall.

And unless someone can talk Vanguard into making embroidered squares for each grade (and if they can do that maybe the SM NCOs can get the same thing) you’re going to end up pinning rank on the blank square which results in wearing them out faster as the pins break off.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 10, 2018, 12:30:33 PM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.

I think he was referring to continuing to use the metal pins, but place them on the blank blue square and place the rank on the chest same as everyone else.

I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche. That's the only reason I hadnt suggested that. If we went that way though it may be easier and more consistent for everyone.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 12:44:43 PM
For the reasons the OP stated, the end of the line on ABUs is way closer than it was with BDUs.  It would be absolute willful ignorance to not start looking at the next step (and it may be happening at the NHQ level, that's way above my payless-grade).  I'd rather not be forced into wearing Vanguard's third-world knockoffs once the real deals run out, all because CAP likes to wring their hands at the prospect of change.

Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

Name/CAP tapes:

velcro required for cadets, optional for seniors (cadets go through uniforms quicker, make this easier).

Grade:

Cadet enlisted grades continue with pin-on collar chevrons to standardize with the blues shirt, the velcro square on the chest can be either blank or a CAP cutout.

Cadet officers, flight officers, SM NCOs and officers all wear embroidered grade on chest square.  With the exception of SM NCOs, grade is also worn on the patrol cap in the current manner.

Sleeves: One patch per sleeve.  2 per sleeve makes it look even more like a NASCAR suit.

Left sleeve: Wing or higher patch (optional), NCSA or misc patch

Right sleeve: full color US flag (if the AF is going to the subdued one, we need to mirror it with a full-color one), organizational patch, NCSA or misc patch

Badges: cut down on what is allowed to only occupational-style badges and the commander badge, worn IAW AFI 36-2903.

Boots: black.  I hate them, but it is what it is and it won't look as weird with the darker OCP than the lighter ABU.

Why have the cadets use the pin on grade on the collars?  The velcro squares is much easier and cheaper. No cluchbacks to lose.

I think he was referring to continuing to use the metal pins, but place them on the blank blue square and place the rank on the chest same as everyone else.

I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche. That's the only reason I hadnt suggested that. If we went that way though it may be easier and more consistent for everyone.

True, but if you give it a 4-5 year phase-in, those members probably need to be buying new uniforms anyway.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 10, 2018, 01:25:54 PM
I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche.

I wear both, mainly dependent on whether or not I am working with cadets.  The BBDU are more comfortable.

If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 10, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
I do like the idea of moving to the newer pattern for the corporate, but I'd imagine wed likely get some pushback from members who dont want to go get new corporates either. I think those who wear both corporate utilities and air force utilities is a fairly small niche.

I wear both, mainly dependent on whether or not I am working with cadets.  The BBDU are more comfortable.

If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.

I love how comfy the OCP's are. They definitely were the right choice for the air force and army.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 10, 2018, 02:11:02 PM
If you can find OCP style uniforms in plain blue, please tell me where.

I have them, they are great, I got them from BDU.com a bunch of years ago,
and they were called "TacBUs".

Unfortunayely bdu.com isn't a "thing" anymore, apparently, so I have to find my old order,
or check the tags.

I wear the pants on the bike because of the lower pockets, and use the shirt as a light jacket.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 10, 2018, 02:41:50 PM
I just know the F-35 heritage team wears dark blue ACU-style uniforms.  No idea what brand.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CFToaster on August 10, 2018, 04:17:41 PM
Navy blue tops and bottoms on the ACU/OCP pattern are sold by Propper under the Tac.u brand.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: jayleswo on August 10, 2018, 07:35:20 PM
I like the thoughtful discussion on this topic. Rather than comment on whether CAP should adopt the ACU/OCP pattern, I would offer my opinion on some of the uniform accouterments. I do think appearance could be enhanced by adopting the same OCP pattern background for insignia that Army and Air Force wear on this uniform. The navy blue with silver thread we have now for our field uniforms is an improvement over the ultramarine blue with white thread. But, I think it would look odd on OCP. I think the cloth background really should just match the color/pattern of the field uniform. Dark Blue for the BBDU. OCP for the new ACU/OCP uniform.

Distinctiveness from active-duty could be satisfied by simply using white thread for the lettering on the branch and name tapes and other insignia on the OCP pattern background. Grade insignia would be in white (or gold) on OCP with "CAP" above on the grade tab (or blank with metal insignia for Cadets and Cadet Officers). For additional distinctiveness, use the CAP Command Patch (already available with velcro) in full color on one shoulder. Not sure we really an American Flag patch since we don't deploy leaving plenty of space for other patches as needed.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 11, 2018, 01:34:48 PM
I do think appearance could be enhanced by adopting the same OCP pattern background for insignia that Army and Air Force wear on this uniform. The navy blue with silver thread we have now for our field uniforms is an improvement over the ultramarine blue with white thread. But, I think it would look odd on OCP. I think the cloth background really should just match the color/pattern of the field uniform. Dark Blue for the BBDU. OCP for the new ACU/OCP uniform.

That would certainly look good, and professional.  Either that, or at least have the nametapes/CAPtapes  on the OCP uniform be a better blending color, something like olive green, or similar.  The lettering would still be silver/white of course.

I do agree that while the dark (Air Force) blue looks great on the BBDU and BDU woodland pattern, it doesn't quite blend as well with the new OCP pattern.

Having said all that, since CAP just recently changed name tape color a few years ago (which was an improvement)... I reckon that something like this probably wont happen until quite some time in the future.  For now... at least we can all still be happy for the improvement that we've been able to get.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 05:23:43 PM
Here's how I'd do OCPs for CAP (and move the BBDU to a ACU-style in dark blue with matching layout like https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28277303_2276907562535837_6623124939621139508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=80a846fa3df35f87d2624efdf6a8cd9e&oe=5BFDB39E)  ):

I'd be on board with that, except I'd go with a different color, like what I suggested on CAP Talk 11 years ago.

Remember this idea from 2007? That was funny...

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15831.0;attach=4742;image)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2018, 05:25:00 PM
Even better, and probably more available than dark blue.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 11, 2018, 07:20:49 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 11, 2018, 07:49:30 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...
It may not look tacti-kool, but it is functional. Some of us are skilled at the sewing necessary to achieve your desired look, but many are not, and do not have financial assets to have the pros do it. Take a look at the CAWG patch, and imagine sewing it onto Velcro pile, and then sewing a correspondingly shaped piece of loop onto the garment. BTDT; reluctant to repeat the experience.

Using heat seal Velcro on the patches alleviates that part of the problem, and rectangles on the garment allow exchanging patches if needed.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 11, 2018, 08:23:28 PM
A  long, very long time ago I used to cut and sew Velcro on a NY Wing patch so I could use the AF blue jacket and coat with my Blues and with my civies for work, etc. Did it by hand. So I know what ya mean. Now I am 63, and do not have the dexterity to thread a needle, nor the vision acuity to see the thread.


So now that I am retired I have to scrape money to get uniforms to tailors. No choice!



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 11, 2018, 09:41:04 PM
(https://s33.postimg.cc/cujy8l5bz/CAP_Blue_OCP.png)

Scaling of badges, etc. are slightly off. It's tough to know how something looks until it's actually worn, rendering don't do things justice. My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch), wing patch or equivalent on the left sleeve, organizational on the right, both velcro backed. Velcro backing optional for the rest. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 10:23:39 PM
I do not like it. Velcro does not match patches. Patches are not completely attached to the uniform, and do not lie squarely on it specially at the edges. Collar too narrow. Grade on the front and not on the shoulder where it has been traditionally in the case of officers, or on the arm in the case of other ranks. Slanted pockets.

But I guess I will be in the minority...

That picture was taken with name tapes, GTM bsdge, and rank being set on top of the uniform. They were not sewn nor velcroed. Just like I do on my OCPs, I would sew everything on (except the sleeves).

Just think, if we did this in 2007 like I suggested, we wouldn’t have had to switch to ABUs and we wouldn’t be having this discussion about going to OCPs. This uniform could be timeless.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2018, 10:28:04 PM
My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch)...

I’m not a fan of the American flag either. At the time I did this, CAP had just started wearing reverse flags. Thankfully that was short lived.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 12, 2018, 12:25:13 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 12, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 12, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
I just can't speculate. 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 12, 2018, 05:05:06 PM
(https://s33.postimg.cc/cujy8l5bz/CAP_Blue_OCP.png)

Scaling of badges, etc. are slightly off. It's tough to know how something looks until it's actually worn, rendering don't do things justice. My input would be no US flag (we don't deploy overseas, so no reason to wear the "shoot me" patch), wing patch or equivalent on the left sleeve, organizational on the right, both velcro backed. Velcro backing optional for the rest.

I'd do the tape on the pocket angles and lose the badges, or put everything on the velcro'ed pockets.
Tapes on the flaps, badges below.

Or better still, a leather namebadge on one of the pockets.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 12, 2018, 05:05:55 PM
It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.

Nah, Indonesia has a lot of excess capacity.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 12, 2018, 09:18:48 PM
It would seem the Air Force has designed smaller versions of the badges when two are worn together, Not a bad idea IMO as it cuts down on the clutter.  (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg) (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 12, 2018, 11:41:54 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 05:48:36 AM
It would seem the Air Force has designed smaller versions of the badges when two are worn together, Not a bad idea IMO as it cuts down on the clutter.  (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg) (https://i.redd.it/8kk36ce7gdhz.jpg)

Considering that the General is the Air Force Chief of Staff, it was probably custom made for him. Good to be the King and all that.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 13, 2018, 02:57:26 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 04:00:44 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.

According to everything the Air Force has put out so far, we're going to be wearing the exact same uniform the Army wears.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 13, 2018, 04:09:42 PM
That's just a flight suit badge in multicam without any lettering.

And my guess would be that the official USAF Multicam will come with a velcro patch above the branch tape that is just that size, and we would wear the same flight suit badge we currently use on this.

The current Air Force uniform does not include a "loop" patch above the nametape to accommodate a Velcro occupational badge, as the Army uniform does not include this.

Some people sewn on the loop patch so they can attached a hook-backed Velcro occupational/qualification badge that can be removed easily.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 13, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
The current Air Force uniform does not include a "loop" patch above the nametape to accommodate a Velcro occupational badge, as the Army uniform does not include this. Some people sewn on the loop patch so they can attached a hook-backed Velcro occupational/qualification badge that can be removed easily.

The style of this uniform is so different it will require a whole set of new rules.  I'm not even going to guess.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 06:31:43 PM
Most Air Force people I've seen wearing the OCP removed the velcro above the pockets and had sewn on name and branch tapes along with their wings and speciality badges. Which is an option that the wearer can choose.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Stonewall on August 13, 2018, 07:14:54 PM
Most Air Force people I've seen wearing the OCP removed the velcro above the pockets and had sewn on name and branch tapes along with their wings and speciality badges. Which is an option that the wearer can choose.

Yup. My name, rank, and badges are all sewn on my OCPs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 13, 2018, 08:58:05 PM
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)

That was never the purpose. When the Nay introduced the uniform, they specifically stated that is was only to hide stains.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 13, 2018, 09:06:29 PM
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)

That was never the purpose. When the Nay introduced the uniform, they specifically stated that is was only to hide stains.

There is no such thing as a "clean" ship. Grease and oil are everywhere.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 13, 2018, 09:10:27 PM
Don't think the blue looks very good with OCP camo. I would suggest tan color tapes/rank/cloth backgrounds with some color of darker thread. Tan would be in line with the "different in low light conditions" that the Air Force harped on.

If going with the flag, wear the right hand one. The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Colored squadron ballcaps would be distinctive too, bringing back a little history. Or maybe just a solid complimentary color PC.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 13, 2018, 09:25:09 PM
The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

There's 1MM Chinese kids cranking on US flags in every orientaiton as we speak, and the price is generally the same.
Availibility is not an issue.

I just think it's hilarious that after all the angst and care about removing it, the USAF put it right back on.

One more in the "make a CAP uniform instead of trying to chase the dragon" pile.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 13, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 14, 2018, 12:07:16 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 12:17:48 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?

MAJCOM,  unit, and duty identifiers
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 07:25:13 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

On the OCP? Because according to the latest release of 2903, there isn't supposed to be anything on the pockets.

From AFGM2018-02 (which is included with AFI 36-2903), "Patches or badges will not be affixed to the front pockets."

EDIT: To avoid any further confusion, I was thinking of the front pockets, although I should have specifically stated "front pockets." Sorry for the confusion, my fault entirely.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 07:28:03 AM
The left hand flag is pretty much a flightsuit item; right hand one would be more plentiful, and cheaper because of that.

There's 1MM Chinese kids cranking on US flags in every orientaiton as we speak, and the price is generally the same.
Availibility is not an issue.

I just think it's hilarious that after all the angst and care about removing it, the USAF put it right back on.

One more in the "make a CAP uniform instead of trying to chase the dragon" pile.

Maybe it could be made in left hand, after thinking about it, just don't see the point of putting it on the left sleeve. Back to the old saying, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 14, 2018, 09:54:10 AM
The Air Force isn't allowing patches on pockets, so it would be distinctive, especially in the aforementioned "low light" scenarios. Just got to figure out which ones would go on pockets.

Yes they are.  I see it daily

Unit patches or Cop/Firefighter Badges?

MAJCOM,  unit, and duty identifiers

I've only seen those on the shoulders, which is where, according to what has been released by the Air Force, is where they're supposed to be worn.
The only patches I've seen on the "pockets" have been cop badges.

But that's just what I have seen. YMMV
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 10:12:50 AM
I think we have a miscommunication here. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
I think we have a miscommunication here.

Yeah, there was some confusion about which "pockets" were being discussed. Personally though, I do like the idea of putting our unit patches/wing patches/NCSA patches on the arms. Don't need to have the flag but it does fit. You could do a Flag and Wing on one side, NCSA or squadron choice for the other arm.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 14, 2018, 01:32:50 PM
I think we have a miscommunication here.

Yeah, there was some confusion about which "pockets" were being discussed. Personally though, I do like the idea of putting our unit patches/wing patches/NCSA patches on the arms. Don't need to have the flag but it does fit. You could do a Flag and Wing on one side, NCSA or squadron choice for the other arm.

And that was my fault, I should have said "front" pockets instead of just pockets. After all, sleeve pockets are pockets too.

For the Air Force configuration, seems like the right sleeve pocket is the flag, and higher command, or some type of optional patch. I'd say for a CAP version, wear the flag, and allow either a wing patch, or an NCSA/other type of patch (one or the other, obviously.)

On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

For the front pockets, I think the usual patches on the left would be fine. It's distinctive since the Air Force isn't doing it. On the right, Model Rocketry would be appropriate, especially since the unit patch is elsewhere. Otherwise, leave it blank.

As to other patches, don't know. There would have to be some type of analysis and direction on them. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: abdsp51 on August 14, 2018, 01:59:58 PM
Personaly they need to add that the SF/FD badges need to be allowed on the front pockets.  The little SF pseudo brassard deal is not sufficient.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 02:13:14 PM
On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

It's not, but also largely ignored, since there are any number of other Nascar patches allowed.
For years my wing had an approved supplement that allowed Unit insignia and even a couple of local
activity patches on the flight suit(s) until that was explicitly verboten in the regs.

Unit insignia should simply be allowed anywhere other "optional" patches are.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 02:20:24 PM
For the Air Force configuration, seems like the right sleeve pocket is the flag, and higher command, or some type of optional patch. I'd say for a CAP version, wear the flag, and allow either a wing patch, or an NCSA/other type of patch (one or the other, obviously.)

On the left sleeve pocket, squadron patch. Mirror the Air Force on that. Encourage units to have their own patch. And HQ needs to encourage that local morale practice. Right now, a squadron patch isn't allowed on the flight suit (last I read.) I don't like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't either.

For the front pockets, I think the usual patches on the left would be fine. It's distinctive since the Air Force isn't doing it. On the right, Model Rocketry would be appropriate, especially since the unit patch is elsewhere. Otherwise, leave it blank.

I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines). Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 02:25:36 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 14, 2018, 02:52:26 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.

Group patches are not authorized on the Air Force-style FDU.

CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 03:02:36 PM
^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 03:21:06 PM
Even patches for Group level are prohibited which is a bit ridiculous given you wear wing or region.

Not in CAP.

Group patches are not authorized on the Air Force-style FDU.

CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.

That's what I was referring to. I should have been more specific. Thank you for clarifying.

^ I know they can't be worn on the FDUs, I was thinking he meant that the Heraldry guidelines
prohibited their existence, which wouldn't be applicable to CAP.

I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 14, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::) 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 04:25:59 PM
I do remember seeing a CAP specific heraldry guide not too long ago when my unit did their squadron patch redesign. It may have even been posted here on CAPTalk but I'm not sure. I do know we have one.

It does, and Groups are authorized.

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/69f796595f5ebe2c67634092021ad42e.pdf

Thanks, I was having trouble finding that. I was referring to wear of Group patches on the FDU, not that their existence is prohibited by heraldry. I think that Group patches and unit patches should be authorized for USAF style and Corporate FDU. Unit pride is something that I think is lacking and this potential change with the OCP provides an opportunity to open it up.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 14, 2018, 04:26:40 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2018, 04:44:03 PM
Our patchwork uniform manual strikes again  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D

Both literally and figuratively.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 14, 2018, 07:27:13 PM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 09:07:21 AM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

I've seen that, too. Although, at the time it was a tab. It looked a little odd with just the tab, no Civil Air Patrol patch. And it was the region commander wearing it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 15, 2018, 09:45:48 AM
But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

I can't remember where from, or why,  but I think the Region shield being authorized in place of the command patch on the corporate FDU  (but not the USAF version) was intentional.  And I've seen PCR do it.

It may have been intentional in draft form, but it obviously never made it through.  Thus, it should have been removed in final draft form.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
8.3.4.2. Right Breast Pocket. The CAP Command Patch will be worn centered above the
right breast pocket directly opposite the nametag.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
The CFDU will only be worn with the accoutrements and outergarments outlined in this
chapter.

No such exceptions existed for the March 2005 or the July 1997 uniform manuals. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: chuckmilam on August 15, 2018, 09:58:45 AM
The July 1997 manual had some of the best models.  I may be slightly biased.  Also, that one guy totally needed a haircut. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 10:51:55 AM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 02:17:40 PM
I like the idea of doing Flag (R top sleeve pocket), Wing patch under (R side) or NCSA and on Left side either Sqd or NCSA patch. Only 1 patch per side except when flag is placed above the left patch.

I also think if we get an update to the 39-1 under the new number scheme, we should update the wear of squadron patch with flight suit (with the caveat that any squadron patch worn on the FDU must meet the new heraldry guidelines)....

The Air Force guidance allows a few different patches under the flag, I think an NCSA as an option there would be fine. When it comes to NCSA , I don't see the point in allowing more than one on the uniform. IF someone has more than one, they have to choose one.

I think that the left should be unit patch, no other option. If a unit doesn't have one, then it's blank. I think unit patches are important, and they should be encouraged. I also don't think anything else should preempt it.

As to the top of the left sleeve Velcro, leave it open for now. Maybe duty brassards, or something. But, don't allow a free for all, that can get a little crazy.

I like the idea of squadron patches on flightsuits, never understood why they weren't allowed. I don't think any higher levels of command should take a view of "our patch is more important."

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 15, 2018, 02:36:13 PM
Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")

(https://s8.postimg.cc/nvoc3scit/numbers.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
CAPM 39-1:
Quote
8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear.


Which begs the question <sarcasm>, what organizational patches have you seen appropriately worn on the Right Sleeve of the FDU? <keep reading before you react>

The definition of organizational patch is:
Quote
Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel.

However, attachment 4, specifically authorizes the wear of an organizational patch on the right sleeve for both the USAF-style and Corporate FDU.  However, attachment 4 specifically separates out Wing Patches from the organizational patch, as it should, as well as Region "Shield" patches from organizational patch.  The Overseas patch is also separated out along with the National patches. 

But then again, Region "Shield" patches are apparently authorized on the RB--right breast pocket--which is the same position as the CAP Command Shield.

If only someone had mentioned this oversight during the 2014 comment phase  ::)

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.


So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 15, 2018, 03:06:43 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 15, 2018, 04:14:23 PM

Attachment 4 lists the types of organizational patches to spread them across the entire table, but the text of 8.2.4.5 specifically prohibits Group patches from being worn on the right sleeve.

Yes, I already stated this, and yet attachment 4 specifically includes that organizational patches are allowed to be worn on the right sleeve on both the USAF-style and Corporate Flight Suits.  So what is your point?

We might be going in circles over something that we're in cohorts of.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 05:07:12 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Is this a wish list?

It was more a clarification of the above post, but since we're discussing what would go on the OCP sleeves, I suppose you could call it a wish list. This would be in line with how the USAF is doing their patches with some minor tweeks for CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 07:13:35 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

I could work with that. Looking at that table, most of the things with "L/RP = On Left or Right Pocket" or "RS = Right Sleeve" for the BDU might be good candidates for the right sleeve pocket of OCP.

Although, I don't have any of the quals mentioned, I would be delighted to see people that earned them be able to wear them. (Of course, it's Velcro. You can always just pull it off if someone whines.)

Since I've been out for awhile, I'm not familiar with the new numbering scheme. Is that aligning publications into more logical groupings as to content? Anyone got a link explaining it?

Year three of something that should have taken a few hours.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Concept_of_Operations_for_Reenginee_F232A9B140406.pdf
(Thankfully this document is "unclassified")

Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 15, 2018, 07:33:36 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 16, 2018, 02:23:57 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 16, 2018, 09:22:18 PM
As noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)

And by the time it comes out, it'll include the OCPs. (Yeah, that long.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 17, 2018, 12:48:49 AM
Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 17, 2018, 12:02:10 PM
Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.

I know several people who are involved in it, and I know they are as frustrated with all this as anyone. They put a lot of work into getting the ABU ready and as soon as they get it out there the AF goes to OCP. Couple that with the constant attention and questions and I can surely see why they may not want to out themselves on here.

OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them. I can promise you that. I started the thread though to get the wheels turning on a plan of action and see what everyone has to say about it's wear. May help those who can actually do the thing to put it together and get a plan started.

I've been noting what all is said and have a "working draft" of a set of wear instructions loosely based on the ABU instructions & the Air Force's wear instructions with a CAP emphasis. Maybe it can be sent up in Memorandum and added at a later date.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 17, 2018, 02:54:00 PM
A good chunk of the Air Force already has their OCP's. Anyone who has deployed to the sand in the past 5 years should still have them.
OCP's are already in production and will ramp up as the Air Force has their contractor switch from making ABU's to OCP's.
So the deployment of this uniform should go pretty quick. Basically a test to see how well the procurement and AAFES can work together.
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 17, 2018, 04:24:28 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.

I think this is a pretty logical assumption.

OCPs are pretty widely available now. ABUs will die off fairly quick. Because of the cross-branch use, you'll see a lot more sources to get them from. ABUs, being so distinct from UCP/ACUs, were often a challenge depending on where you were shopping through. OCPs have been easy to get for some time.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 17, 2018, 06:15:09 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
   Hey doc good explanation on your last post and your contacts. I am looking at this as the sooner the change is made, the better will be since the ABU is very unpopular including between the AF folks and some members in the CAP.

     I do understand their are very respectable individuals in this thread and forum , however, some of you are speculator and other are the deal makers. Let National put this thing to rest. I believe, National should do a white letter explaining they are looking at this problem set or no changes will be made. I do believe that will a peace some members.

    Furthermore, even thought is a change for the air force, is also a big gamble for our corporation since we just spend a lots of money on the last change.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Ned on August 17, 2018, 06:41:22 PM
Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 17, 2018, 06:44:20 PM
Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things
Thanks, Ned.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: etodd on August 17, 2018, 07:57:52 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 17, 2018, 08:06:24 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 :D :D :D :D

Agreed :D :D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 08:30:53 AM
Yeah, but some members have gotten the example from Ma Blue and the sister branches, and now they want to show the behavior...


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 10:48:05 AM
OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them.

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes? Right sleeve option? Not sure if there's really enough room for it over the nametape on OCPs.

Velcro on the sleeve could actually prove handy. Show up to mission base with ES patch on, change the patch to something that reflects your assignment. (If you're communicator qualified, pull off ES patch, put on commo patch, for example.)

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards. There's precedence for such things in both the Army and Air Force. Just have a batch of them at the mission base, people get assigned to positions, they slap on a brassard. It would also be a handy way to close out mission base, "Hey, we don't have the MRO brassard back, is someone still on the radio?" Make it a practice to turn it in when you sign out.

Just some additional thoughts.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 12:21:15 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.
They have their uses. Cadets tend to be pretty proud to earn them, and they earn the patch before they get anything else. They're not mandatory, but it's a good patch to be wearing when you get to a mission base.

Size wise, the current Goofy patch is probably too big to put over a nametag. I'm thinking to place it on the right sleeve under the flag, or else size it down to something that would fit over a nametape. (Just allowing it on the sleeve would be a lot easier than resizing.)

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.
Haven't seen the CAWG ones, so don't have any frame of reference on them. I'm just thinking that duty position identifiers during a mission would be useful, with the stipulation that they come off after the mission (or SAREX.) They don't need to be worn anyplace other than there.

I'm sure we could come up with something that wouldn't look ridiculous. Something with practical purpose shouldn't be garish.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 12:45:00 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ig53cij8l/brassard.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/6426z1xyt/brassard2.jpg)

I swear I've seen them worn with blues as well, but could not find a quick photo.  I purposely trimmed out
the wearer's identity as it's not their fault they are just doing what they are told.

Why do people need "position identifiers" in CAP?  Is there ever any confusion over who is doing what at a base
that can't be solved by asking?

I've seen so much time and effort wasted over vests, tags, chairs, t-shirts, hats, especially hats, everyone wants a hat.

Q: Where's the CUL?

A: Over by the radios.

Q: Where is the IC?

A: In the ICP.

Q: Who is my Flight Commander?

A: The person standing there telling you what to do...

Etc., etc.

I suppose in a public ES environment with hundreds of people who don't know each
other there is justification beyond supporting Indonesia and FEMA grants, but in a CAP
context, if you don't know who these people are, you either don't need to, or you were not paying attention.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 01:11:11 PM
So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors. Assuming that CAP is sent to work where other agencies are using the ICS structure, you still will not use them?

Ev en among us, there is still need to know the ICS positions.

Members arrive after a briefing is made, and are told to report to the CUL. So they go over there and find, as some wings do, four radios one for CC1, another for CC2, another Air 1, and Air 2. Each one with an operator and a captain standing over. They report to the Captain thinking he is the CUL however the CUL is really operating a radio because of X reason. 

The IC of Event XYZ is going to the CAP member with the highest grade thinking that is our IC when in fact he is I don't know, a CUL?

I think the ICS identifier idea is great.



Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ig53cij8l/brassard.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/6426z1xyt/brassard2.jpg)


I agree, those are kind of hideous.

I think the ICS identifier idea is great.

I wasn't really thinking ICS identifiers, but may not be a bad idea.

The Army and the Air Force have a simple "patch" type of identifier that is worn on the top of the left sleeve pocket, we could do the same thing.

In the bandying about ideas earlier, we haven't really identified anything for that position, just wearing a unit patch. Still plenty of area left. But, I would definitely make it clear that it's not a free for all section of the uniform. Authorized patches only, only in specific settings. No "That Guy," or "Secret Squirrel" types of joke/novelty tabs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: arajca on August 18, 2018, 01:32:43 PM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 18, 2018, 02:13:31 PM
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on August 18, 2018, 02:55:48 PM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

 ::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 03:00:06 PM
So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors.

? This is about fancy clothes, not ICS identifiers, per se.

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.

I have never been to any mission, no mater the scale, where I couldn't figure out, quickly,
who was doing what, and generally the only missions using vests and other accouterments are evals.

The rest go off with uniforms, which include a lot of screened golf shirts that don't even have names on them.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 04:53:07 PM
Quote
From Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.




Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 05:33:30 PM
Quote
From Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.

What "others"?

The vast majority of CAP ES activities don't even have an ICP, per se, those that do, the vast majority of them
is CAP personnel only.

If CAP is involved in a larger-scale activity where they are integrated into another agency's ICP, then it's on that agency to
provide the identifying garments or badges, not CAP to bring their own.

In that case, a CAP-IC would not be "the" IC, and they would not wear the "of record" vest / whatever anyway.

Back in the CAP real world, there should not be randos walking around trying to figure out who is doing what
based soley on a vest or badge.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 19, 2018, 07:52:14 AM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

 ::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.

Not sure why you think that kind of response is appropriate.

The Army created the uniform, the Air Force decided to adopt the Army uniform later. It's pretty reasonable that soldiers should be outfitted first. The late comers should have to wait.

Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.

good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: arajca on August 19, 2018, 10:21:42 AM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.
Can it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

Quote
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 19, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
Can it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

It could be, especially if there's a rewrite (and re-numbering) due on the uniform pub. Don't know if they really need to illustrate every single brassard, maybe show a couple and then list the additional ones authorized.

Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

I think I remember that. Don't remember specifics. You had posted about it here, right?

I think that might be even better than a patch. We could stick Goofy in the middle of a badge, maintain some history. (I'm only joking. I would consider it though, if there was enough interest.)

Still got those drawings? I don't remember off hand what they looked like.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 19, 2018, 05:27:19 PM
Quote
Quote
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

When it comes to the service & field uniforms worn by the military and most other agencies nowdays... an ES badge does seem to be much more appropriate.

Or here's an idea... if the powers at be (and members) still desire it to be some type of patch... then just create a more modern/updated patch that looks more professional.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 19, 2018, 05:38:53 PM
That being said... the goofy/pluto patch could still be sold & encouraged as an informal patch... for CAP members to wear on other (non-uniform) clothing (jackets, etc)... then the history of the patch would be allowed to live on (even if in a more informal way).

(yes I do believe history "has it's place"... and it's more than fine if people want to preserve & remember heritage in some way). 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 23, 2018, 06:52:16 AM
That being said... the goofy/pluto patch could still be sold & encouraged as an informal patch... for CAP members to wear on other (non-uniform) clothing (jackets, etc)... then the history of the patch would be allowed to live on (even if in a more informal way).

(yes I do believe history "has it's place"... and it's more than fine if people want to preserve & remember heritage in some way).

Or maybe just change it out for an ES badge, let it die.

A timeline that comes to mind is that it gets phased out, treated as a novelty patch, and then a decade down the road someone says "Hey, you know what would be cool? If we could wear that Emergency Services patch on our uniforms like they used to in the old days."

If we're going to eliminate something, then let's eliminate it. I always liked the Pluto patch, but it would probably be easier to ditch it altogether.

And, in a completely hypothetical situation, we wouldn't have to consider placement on, say, a new uniform.  ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 09:21:38 AM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 23, 2018, 10:17:59 AM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Roger that.

Sounds like we must be a paramilitary organization...


A timeline that comes to mind is that it gets phased out, treated as a novelty patch, and then a decade down the road someone says "Hey, you know what would be cool? If we could wear that Emergency Services patch on our uniforms like they used to in the old days."

If we're going to eliminate something, then let's eliminate it.

^ Cropped for relevant parts

How many times have uniform discussions been stirred up because someone like the appearance of an old uniform, or they want the nostalgia back?

It's absurd really. The Air Force talking about shifting to a new service dress uniform rehashed that old chat ("Heritage"). It's not much different than the guys who want to see the Army wear the old 'pinks and greens.' For what reason other than "that's what the real soldiers wore in World War II?" Who...the...heck...cares?

Learn from the past (training), sure. But don't live in the past.

We focus on so much frivolous stuff.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 10:30:06 AM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 12:48:43 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 23, 2018, 01:02:22 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 23, 2018, 02:01:13 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.

Could be due to the collective user group on the internet, who may also be typing up a response while pulling up the CAP Uniform Manual right then and there....or the lack of individuals out in the world who don't bother to check up on the manual from time to time, thus, forgetting its contents.

I'm in it constantly, and every time, it's like I've learned something new. The same goes for Cadet Programs regulations, and a number of other areas.

Most uniform topics are people griping about what they don't like what someone did (without enforcing the correction), or they don't like the way something is in the manual.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 23, 2018, 02:19:58 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.


I'm totally with you guys here... I have never in all my years of CAP membership... had or heard uniform conversations in person -- the way it is talked about online (in CAPTALK).  This is probably a good thing, and means that it's much more of an ideas sharing / debate that happens when people are wasting time online.

Also, very much agree that if people are so bothered by this topic... then why do they spend their time in the Uniforms & Awards section of CAPTALK?  There are dozens (if not hundreds) of other topics in CAPTALK that they can click into... and not have to read a single thing about it (or can even start their own topics).

Now, having said all that... I could honestly wear a bright *fluorescent red* jumpsuit -- and a beenie hat with a propeller on top... as my uniform.  I honestly couldn't care less.  I spent enough years in uniform (like many others in CAP)... and honestly the starry-eyed excitement of dressing up that so many people have... just doesn't exist for me.  I would much rather just show up for work in my pajamas.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 03:20:55 PM
While my reply was really meant as a tongue-in-check, I will put this out there:

There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

Uniforms & Awards accounts for 105,001 posts.  That means, that the uniform section receives 26% of the total number of posts.  Also, if we average the number of replies per post, then we see that the Uniform section gets an average of 31 posts per topic. 

To put everything into perspective:
Cadet Programs (as a whole) has 42,039 posts, or 10% of posts, with an average of 16 replies per topic. 
ES/Ops/Aviation (as a whole) has 61,737 posts, or 15% of posts, with an average of 16 replies per topic. 
Aerospace has 4,680 posts, or a whopping 1% of posts, with an average of 8 replies per topic. 

The lobby has the only competition to the Uniforms section, which the lobby also has a number of uniform topics:  103,449 posts, or 26%, with an average of 22 replies per topic. 

Again, a number of topics in these subsections have a tendency to get side tracked into uniform discussions, which are obviously not accounted for in this very elementary analysis.  Further, this does not account for the quick 2 word corrections that happen.  Of course, the lobby does have a group of different topics that fall into all different subsections, such as CP, ES, and AE.  However, this still demonstrates the point that Uniforms are discussed most often on CAPTalk, at nearly 1.7 to 22X more than our core CAP missions. 

It would be interesting to see how many Facebook groups fall into uniform discussions, but that would depend on a number of factors--such as what group as some are just meme driven while others are professionally driven. 

So Starbird is not entirely off with his/her statement, even if it is in the "Uniforms & Awards" subsection of CAPTalk.  To be honest, I am starting to become more in line with etodd with just wearing polos and, maybe, corporate whites for senior members.   

Anyway, my $0.02, which you can all discuss to great lengths. 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2018, 03:37:29 PM
The simple reason for this is that the multiform is a mess, going back a couple of decades.

     The regs are a mess.

     There is inconsistent (at best) enforcement of "standards".

     Poor examples of proper wear by leadership at pretty much every level.

And plenty of homegrown wives tales and made-up local rules, owing in large part to the above.
Not to mention any number of wings and activities which have seen fit to request waivers,
special clothing items, or insignia outside the norms of the "standard" uniform.

The CP, ES, and AE, as programs in themselves, CP, especially, don't have nearly the ambiguity or
lack of enforcement of standards, at least on the mean, as does the multiform, however the
multiform is the most visible aspect of membership, and one which the members have
the financial burden of carrying.

Regulations and wear instructions are trickled out in ways that conflict with themselves internally,
violate other regulations, or which don't make logical sense, and owing to the inconsistent
experience and training of Unit CCs and staff lend themselves to confusion, at a minimum,
and worse when personalities with agendas are added to the mix.

For example, and as mentioned here a number of times, there is currently no properly published
authorization for the wear of ABUs whatsoever
.  Members following only the regs will not find
a trail of documents that authorizes it as a CAP uniform.

It is also "interesting" to note that NHQ saw fit to incorporate an ICL into 39-1 for the purpose
of getting out the AFOEA (despite the regs prohibiting ICLs for things like that), but 4+ years after it was
published (including many typos, incorrect images, and missing items that were corrected in the public comments
and ignored) it still doesn't include the ABU, which is now on a ramp to sundown by Big Blue.

It there any wonder C/AB's mom is lost?

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 04:15:58 PM
I think I agree with Eclipse, added:

When you remove the crazy number of questions about uniforms that could actually be answered by just reading what we have out there already, that number would likely fall more in line with the other topics.

I think we're probably overstating the issue because like I said (and others have confirmed) we don't really speak to uniform changes near as often as we talk the actual mission in person, it's just that this is the forum for us to discuss it. But that being said,

We can work toward a homogenous and comprehensive uniform manual and regulation, and having a lot of eyes on it that can point out errors and inconsistencies can be a huge benefit.

I think I've gotten together a basis for a uniform change memorandum, along with timeline etc. Of course it's all going to be up in the air but for those of us that are and have been in cap a while, we'll eventually see change because that's normal for any org. Anybody who remembers the dark days before that Jul2005-Oct 2007 know what I mean... lots of change.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 23, 2018, 04:24:56 PM
There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

With nearly 10% of those all by one person.

Telling, ain't it?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 04:39:44 PM
There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

With nearly 10% of those all by one person.

Telling, ain't it?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D >:D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2018, 05:31:23 PM
Yeah - seriously, you guys need to step up your game...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 23, 2018, 08:10:33 PM
It's a forum, we chat about things that we may not actually have time to talk about in person. (If we actually talked about it in person, the conversations would probably be pretty short. "Hey, this is an idea I have." "Hmm, that's pretty cool." "Thanks, thought I'd share.")

It's a little hobby for me personally, I follow uniforms for almost all of the seven uniformed services. Just something else I do.

I do safety for the Guard, but the nature of the safety I do there probably doesn't even have more than about ten percent overlap (if that) with CAP. I'd discuss, but the nature of it is different. That's why I don't dip into that page that often.

I like the discussion here, I learn of what would interests other people have, and I've changed my mind on a few things. OCPs are the newest "thing," so it's cool to see some ideas on them, even if we might never see them.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 23, 2018, 08:13:51 PM
Hi LSThinker,

You are very correct about the proportion (and %) of messages (postings) regarding uniforms... in the different parts of CAPTALK.  No worries my friend, I realize that you were saying a lot that with a bit of humor (in order to make a point)  :).

From reading many of your past postings, you seem a pretty easygoing person.

You are just pointing out something that we all know is true... that people use a huge part of CAPTALK to talk about uniform issues.  Yet, for some reason... all of us continue to keep coming back, reading, and posting in here again anyway... lol.   ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021. That means the AF (April 2021) and Army (Wearout date for everyone to be in an OCP uniform is 30 September 2019) will be complete with their transitions and the old uniforms will be off shelves at AAFES by then except at secondary sales like Propper (if they decided to continue the pattern with little to no demand besides CAP). We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter.

I wouldn't mind any feedback on the language. It's largely a merger between the 39-1 and the USAF wear instructions.

Operational Camouflage Pattern-CAP:

4.1. OCP Coat (Shirt). The coat is worn outside the trousers. The coat will not extend below the top of the cargo pocket on the trousers and will not be higher than the bottom of the opening of the side pocket on the trousers. Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the OCP coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. [Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times. Patches or badges will not be affixed to the front pockets. Alterations that affect the functionality of the uniform are not authorized, e.g. sewing down collars, or pockets. The OCP coat may be removed in the immediate work area as determined appropriate by local leadership, however, the OCP coat will be worn while interacting with Civil Air Patrol’s customers/clients.]

4.1.1. Accoutrements. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing for ‘Civil Air Patrol’ tape, name tape, and rank. Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only Velcro patches are authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.]

4.1.1.1. Rank Insignia is mandatory for all personnel. For CAP Cadet Airmen Basics or Senior members with no rank, a blank, Navy blue CAP Velcro tab shall be worn.

4.1.1.1.1 Officer rank insignia will silver; Second Lieutenant and Major rank insignia will be Gold.

4.1.1.1.2. Enlisted rank will be silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.3. Cadet Officer rank will be Silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.4 Cadet Enlisted rank will be metal pinned rank on a blank Navy Velcro tab with rank placed centered horizontally and vertically.

4.1.2. Name and ‘Civil Air Patrol’ tapes are mandatory for all personnel wearing this uniform.

4.1.2.1. Name and CAP tapes embroidery will be silver on Navy Blue tape. Name and CAP tapes may be sewn on or affixed with Velcro; however the sewn tapes must maintain a consistent horizontal length to the Velcro affixed tapes.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the “Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge. Chaplain and CAP aviation badges are mandatory and will always be worn in the highest position. Not more than a combined total of two of these badges will be worn on the wearer’s left. When more than one CAP aviation badge is authorized, only one will be worn. If a military aviation badge (aeronautical, space or cyberspace) is worn, it will be worn in the second position. If chaplain badge is worn, it is worn in the higher position. Parachutist wings are optional; however, when worn will be placed above an occupational badge or below a chaplain, aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge. Occupational badges (excluding chaplain) are optional. All light silver on dark blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia.

4.1.3.1. Chaplain Badge will be worn ½ inch above aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge (if authorized) or ½ inch above the ‘Civil Air Patrol’ tape. 

4.1.4. Badges and Commander’s Insignia Pin (Group and Unit Commanders). Wear of this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the nametape over the right pocket.

4.1.5. Sleeve Patches. A total of two patches as authorized by Attachment 4 may be worn on the sleeves of the CAP-OCP uniform. [For exception see 4.4.4.2.3.]

4.1.5.1. One full color patch as authorized by Attachment 4 may be affixed with Velcro to the left sleeve centered on the OCP shirt. Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area.

4.1.5.2. Organizational unit of assignment patches may be worn on the right sleeve.  Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area unless authorized functional badges or joint qualification tabs are worn.

[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

4.1.5.5. No other types of patches are authorized on the left sleeve.

4.1.6. T-Shirt. T-Shirt will be Desert Sand or Tan and will be tucked into OCP trousers.

4.2. OCP Trouser. The OCP trousers are worn buttoned and with a belt. Members may wear the trousers tucked into the top of the boots or bloused using the drawstrings at the bottom of the trousers, or commercial blousing devices if the trousers are not tucked into the boots. Members will not wrap the trouser leg around the leg tightly enough to present a pegged appearance or insert any items inside the trouser leg to create a round appearance at the bottom of the trouser leg. When bloused, the trousers will not extend below the third eyelet from the top of the boot.

4.2.1. Belt. A one piece Tan or Sand, nylon, web belt will be worn with OCP trousers [Exception: maternity trousers]. Belt may extend past buckle.

4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

4.2.2.1. Socks. Socks may be Desert Sand, Tan or Black. No logos may be visible when worn.


4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated “no hat” area. Members will wear the patrol cap straight on the head so that the cap band creates a straight line around the head, parallel to the ground. The patrol cap will fit snugly and comfortably around the largest part of the head without bulging or distortion from the intended shape of the headgear and without excessive gaps. The cap is worn so that no hair is visible on the forehead beneath the cap. (Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap. Chaplains may wear the chaplain occupational badge sewn-on and centered ½ inch above visor. When wearing OCP cap, cadet officers wear regular size, full color rank on Navy blue backing, centered with 1/8 inch border around the insignia.

4.4. Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments. With the exception of functional items, cold weather accessories are only worn while outdoors. Authorized cold weather accessories for the OCP are:

4.4.1. Coyote Brown or black scarves, earmuffs, black watch caps and black or coyote gloves.

4.4.2. Coyote Brown fleece may be worn indoors. When worn indoors, it should be worn over the OCP shirt.

4.4.3. The Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS) jackets (fleece, wind, soft shell, wet weather, or extreme cold weather) may be worn without the pants; however, the pants must not be worn without the jacket. Multicam ECWCS may be worn if OCP is not available.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: etodd on August 24, 2018, 12:10:49 PM

4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated “no hat” area.


Headgear will now be a requirement? I've never worn one before.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 24, 2018, 12:15:20 PM
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

No and no. We don't deploy, no need for the shoot-me patch. And as to the rest of those, they have no CAP equivalent, they have no need on a CAP uniform. I feel the same about dirt dart wings, we don't kick cadets out the door and let them float to earn under grannies bloomers.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 12:24:18 PM

4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated “no hat” area.


Headgear will now be a requirement? I've never worn one before.

Wearing a cover in USAF style uniforms while outdoors (and not in a no hat area like a flightline) has always been a thing. Keep in mind this is only for the OCP as described. None of this is in regards to any other uniform combination. I could probably make that more clear in the wording.

[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

No and no. We don't deploy, no need for the shoot-me patch. And as to the rest of those, they have no CAP equivalent, they have no need on a CAP uniform. I feel the same about dirt dart wings, we don't kick cadets out the door and let them float to earn under grannies bloomers.

I appreciate the feedback. As for the US or joint qualification tabs, they've been something that's been possible on the CAP USAF style uniform for a while, so I saw no reason to remove them for this iteration. No, there aren't CAP equivalents, but the USAF among other branches have always honored the wear of items earned through other branches training. Why would we not do the same for a USAF style equivalent? Of course in corporates none of this is relevant.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: jeders on August 24, 2018, 01:18:35 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021. That means the AF (April 2021) and Army (Wearout date for everyone to be in an OCP uniform is 30 September 2019) will be complete with their transitions and the old uniforms will be off shelves at AAFES by then except at secondary sales like Propper (if they decided to continue the pattern with little to no demand besides CAP). We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter.

I think this timeline makes sense; though I would probably authorize them for wear the day after BDUs are phased out (or extend the BDU phase out period until the start of the OCP phase in period).

Quote
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

Please no, we just got rid of it and, as we only ever operate in the US, there's really no reason to have it unless the Army/Air Force say we have to.

Quote
4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?

Quote
4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

Personally, I think that we should authorize tan boots and t-shirts for every utility uniform, including corporate, so as to cut down on the supply issues.

Quote
(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: xyzzy on August 24, 2018, 01:45:49 PM
Extend use of BDU field jacket , Gortex BDU jacket, (all in Woodland pattern and Gortex Parka (ABU or Woodland pattern) until final phase-out of ABU. Allow OCP outerwear with Woodland and ABU "jacket" (that is, shirt) and trousers. Two sets of uniform outerwear (one for utility uniforms, another for dressier uniforms) is a lot to ask for volunteers; three or four sets is just too much.

A general principle should be for the uniform committee to avoid guessing in which order members will find good deals on, or be given, outerwear vs. jackets & trousers.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 24, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the “Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge.
These two paragraphs in conjunction do not make it clear about mixing sew on and velcro, at least in regards to badges.

I notice you don't say the first badge needs to be centered.  Kudos if that was intentional - because if they were, the upper badge would never be visible under the collar.  Even so, the design of the uniform is not really amenable to wearing these at all.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on August 24, 2018, 02:29:13 PM
The simple reason for this is that the multiform is a mess, going back a couple of decades.

Poor examples of proper wear by leadership at pretty much every level.

Remember the national recruiting video where the pilot gets out of the plane wearing blue jeans & brown loafers with the polo shirt?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 03:03:56 PM
Extend use of BDU field jacket , Gortex BDU jacket, (all in Woodland pattern and Gortex Parka (ABU or Woodland pattern) until final phase-out of ABU. Allow OCP outerwear with Woodland and ABU "jacket" (that is, shirt) and trousers. Two sets of uniform outerwear (one for utility uniforms, another for dressier uniforms) is a lot to ask for volunteers; three or four sets is just too much.

A general principle should be for the uniform committee to avoid guessing in which order members will find good deals on, or be given, outerwear vs. jackets & trousers.

By the time this would be implemented, the Woodland BDU would have already been phased completely out. Why would we allow it to go back in for a transition to OCP? You're asking for a true soup sandwich if we did that and nobody will be wearing BDU's by that time either. Multicam is one of the easiest and cheapest to find color/patterns available out there now. I think if we allowed that if OCP is not available, the outerwear issue wouldn't be too big a deal.

The key is to make sure the wear instructions would go out in sufficient enough time that everyone knows its' coming. That'd give many time to prepare prior to wearing any OCP uniform...

So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the “Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge.
These two paragraphs in conjunction do not make it clear about mixing sew on and velcro, at least in regards to badges.

I notice you don't say the first badge needs to be centered.  Kudos if that was intentional - because if they were, the upper badge would never be visible under the collar.  Even so, the design of the uniform is not really amenable to wearing these at all.

I'm looking into this a bit more, I've seen some options that may solve this problem. I'm not sure if the below are full size or mini's, although the guys at Vanguard have told me they are full size. Maybe something like this as an option.
(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/WWCJGBVIANG3TBO2TGFWSFBUXQ.jpg)

Edit: Better image.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z73_Sehv7oY/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: xyzzy on August 24, 2018, 03:26:41 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021.... We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter....

First, explicitly allowing ECWCS is good (although it is more restrictive than the de facto situation; no one goes out in -20 degree F weather in what's currently allowed, so the current situation is anything goes).

An approximate time line for northern hemisphere outerwear above and beyond the green foliage or coyote fleece (which I understand to be part of ECWCS).

Last time to wear ABU patterned outerwear: March 2021. Assuming it was purchased the beginning of the season, last probable purchase date December 2020.
 
First occasion to wear whatever the airman chooses to replace ABU outerwear: November 2021.

Last occasion to wear ABU pattern outerwear: March 2025.

Time between last probable purchase and last wear of ABU pattern outerwear: December 2020 to March 2025 = 4 years 3 months.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 24, 2018, 03:29:44 PM
4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

I think we could honestly get into the Coyote Brown/Tan boots without much fuss! I know that Walmart & Rothco both make Coyote Brown boots for $40-60, plus there are others available on Amazon for under $100. Not to mention that at my unit we have a uniform donation box on our local Air Force base, I've collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued! When the donation box was established during the Air Force's BDU days we used to see a large donation of Black boots as well. No doubt in my mind this trend will continue with Air Force OCPs & Coyote Brown boots. Remember along with the Air Force, the Army, Navy & USMC (not sure if the Marines still have the Eagle/Globe/Anchor on their boots) all wear Coyote Brown/tan, so the supply will be there for both new and used boots; more so than the Sage Green Boots for sure!

And to speak about the FDU for just one second... I don't think the green flightsuit would look terrible with Tan T-Shirt & Coyote Tan boots ( Actually might help keep your feet slightly less sweaty on a hot/sunny flightline). These are just my opinions however!

So far DocJekyll I really like what you've put together, everything looks great!!! Keep it up and HOPEFULLY NHQ will follow your recommendations!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2018, 03:35:26 PM
ve collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued!

Why are you collecting uniform items you can't use or wear?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 24, 2018, 03:42:41 PM
ve collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued!

Why are you collecting uniform items you can't use or wear?

It's a dropbox in a base office, no one mans the box. We collect the items in there once a week or so. We have a list posted above the box as to what we are looking for, but things end up there anyways! We've discovered Desert Tan flightsuits, desert tan boots, Army ACUs, even some OCPs (Army) all inside our dropbox. Sometimes it can be comical as to what we find in there!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2018, 03:47:32 PM
What do you do with the stuff you can't use?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 24, 2018, 03:56:11 PM
What do you do with the stuff you can't use?

Depending on what it is they end up getting donated to a local Army Navy thrift store or local shelters for the homeless. Other times we put the items out on a meeting night and anyone can collect them to be used for yard-work/landscaping, painting, paintball/airsoft, etc. In either case, the insignias/tapes/patches are removed for the uniforms prior to being discarded.

However, more often than not the uniforms we find in the box are serviceable Air Force style that are authorized by CAP. It really works out well and we've had excellent support from the local airbase leadership regarding it!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 25, 2018, 12:38:52 AM
Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 25, 2018, 10:34:06 AM
Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.

Thanks for the update Fubar! I heard there may be an announcement about a change to the flight duty uniform though, has anything been said? (If I recall it was about the flight suit name patch).
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 25, 2018, 12:04:24 PM
Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.
Thanks for the update

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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAPLTC on August 25, 2018, 04:07:04 PM
CAP needs to make this switch as soon as possible.
Adopt the new uniform, boots and all, ASAP.

Alright everyone, I know this usually devolves but the last thread remained civil for quite a while and I'm hoping this one can too. I would like to open up some polite discourse on the future of the CAP AF style utility uniform. I'm pulling some stuff from other threads and adding some new things as well (including reference images) to help out. I've also had some pretty positive discussions with those in my group and wing about some of these issues and I think there were some good points made worthy of sharing.

First to what we know, the ABU is going away. It's been on it's way out for a while, just like the original ACU. It didn't do the job the AF wanted and didn't do it well enough. In order to bring the "utility" back in the USAF's field uniform, they decided to switch to the OCP which in many ways is a superior cut both for fitment, organization, and pattern. Now, I'm not going to discuss patterns so much because they don't really matter to us beyond the fact our parent organization uses them but what I do have is below;

Regardless of your position on color/design preference on ANY uniform;
  • We will see an initial surge of ABU's when the USAF begins to make it's transition
  • We will likely see many of the other uniform items become more available as the rest of the force begins their switch
  • With the OG and BDU, all services used those patterns so we had a pretty hefty allotment of surplus for some time from the AF and other branches for 30? years of use, which drove the nearly 10 year transition delay for both uniforms.
  • Since the ABU was only used by the USAF and only for about 11 years before the transition to new uniform was announced, surplus will already be far lower than other uniforms we've had.
  • Since only one branch used the ABU, surplus will also be limited. Once that initial surge of surplus diminishes, we're going to see availability for ABU's plummet and prices increase more than they already have similarly to what we started seeing with BDU's just prior to CAP making the decision to swap.
  • OCP and it's prior generation design have been around a while and are easy to find and cheap already. Many in the AF already use it, and the entire Army is phasing in as well, which is why the AF switched to it and not a new pattern.
  • People are going to argue/whine/complain about uniforms no matter what side of the fence they're on and try to make their point, and I don't exclude myself from that.

Now on to some points regarding CAP;
  • CAP will want to remain distinctive to an extent (IE Black boots, Navy tapes w/ white lettering etc.) which it should be...
  • CAP wants to remain close to it's parent organization visually and operationally.
  • The USAF wants us to not diverge too much from them as a parent organization.
  • From a Public Affairs perspective it makes sense to remain visually similar to our parent org.
  • Many cadets are drawn to the program by the uniform (I was when I joined 14 years ago and I don't deny that). [It's the whole came for digs, stayed because it was awesome doing cool stuff thing]

Cons to switching to OCP within a reasonable time (read as sooner rather than later):
  • It's one more uniform out there in the wild for cadets and seniors that fall within standards
  • It's going to royally screw up our already defunct transition period to change things before the transition ends June 2021.
  • If we don't start the change in a reasonable time, we're looking at a logistical nightmare sourcing uniforms for anyone for a reasonable price, to say nothing about sizes cadets can wear.
  • If we begin to make the swap too soon, we'll be met with the same logistical nightmare on the other end, with not enough OCP's to go around for our active/reserve/guard family AND CAP. So, timing in essence will be the name of the game

Pros to switching to the OCP in a reasonable time:
  • We retain similarity visually with our parent organization while still being able to be distinctive.
  • Vanguard already makes the velcro rank and name/branch tapes for CAP for use on the fleeces.
  • Sizing will be better for all, but especially for cadets and females. (this is one of the stated reasons the AF is changing over)
  • The uniforms are more comfortable (Both from personal experience and from information taken by the AF states this.)
  • Velcro tapes, rank patches, etc make changing rank and other items easier.
  • Other patches, Wing/NCSA/Squadron et. al. will work better with OCP's due to the velcro etc. I know many including myself went no-patches on the ABU's because they didn't look right, or other reasons.
  • The boots can remain the same as we currently have, or we can change. Those who wear corporate usually stick to those, and those who wear USAF style generally stick to that anyways, so interplay between the two uniform types is a mute point. Only issue I see is possibly changing boot color with the flight suits, I don't know, flip a coin or something on those, it doesn't really matter.
    -Ergonomics of the pockets/pouches are far better on OCP.
  • This provides an opportunity for CAP to also change the BBDU to the ACU style pockets for similarity while retaining a corporate uniform for those who don't meet H/W standards and/or have religious preferences for beards/etc.
  • This change will overall reduce cost to members due to product and uniform item availability over the coming years
Now, what would all of this look like? Due to some of the other things I do in the background, I have access to some of the newer uniforms, and am currently sitting with the last 2 CAP AF style field utility uniforms and the current US Army OCP Scorpion W2 that the USAF is swapping to so it's simple enough to slap things around a bit and take a look; (keep note, I would never encourage anyone to wear a non-approved uniform, so please don't go out wearing stuff like this unless we get some kind of national approval. It's only a visual reference so everyone can see what we're talking about.)

(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38405007_330484527493121_8013364137641902080_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d69e2512f7498994801e055e500807d&oe=5C0EC261)
One thing I will note above is the ease of changing nametapes and rank on a uniform. That may be a positive change for cadet squadrons where less sewing will be required.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38467903_241987862985946_3442365731683958784_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d80b97a50b53ea29d0073bcd0b228141&oe=5BD51D36)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38438029_307325973168922_8279640608071483392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=55654101173c4d2045652a01e2b7dbd8&oe=5C0E1EDB)
The OCP is far more comfortable than the ABU's or even BDU's. I loved by BDU's but I've got to say this new one feels like a better fit.The velcro on the arms is fairly large and allows for both a flag patch and another type of heraldry or NCSA patch under it, with a wing patch or other NCSA patch or squadron patch going on the other side.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38503199_314409992634639_2753396803528294400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c4b870580e2c93401da1e5de0fdaa23d&oe=5BC84DFE)(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/38485163_2121050081440951_4460526654489362432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3be9208dd68de3cb4090f599cf61bcf0&oe=5C0036DE)
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38437683_321579625246390_1275322892812288000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a6293ec319019a1b0f2319e80eaa4ad9&oe=5C064BC9)
Unlike just about any CAP uniform I can think of, the sleeve cuffs are inverted, which hides the nylon button from view and so far I've noticed has reduced snagging. You can see it in the first picture as well. It has a pen pocket of course on the left arm just like the ABU does. The back and arms have a gusseted panel which makes the uniform far more comfortable when reaching or wearing gear.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/38521730_349104288960739_6123036481054310400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=2350c6180ea49b5869526fa56f33063b&oe=5C0FAE4E)
The new collar is a nice as well. The pants are pretty standard but there have been some upgrades as well. I can note these in a later post if anyone wants to see. There's also the issue of boots but I know that's going on in another thread currently so I won't touch that yet.

Overall, I think it's probably a good idea to start looking at what we need to do to make the switch and stay in line with the AF. I'm sure this puts a wrench in the works for our current transition, but it'll have to be done eventually (for the above stated reasons).
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on August 25, 2018, 11:41:16 PM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 26, 2018, 01:56:06 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

Sent using Tapatalk
Thanks for the update

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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: audiododd on August 26, 2018, 02:04:13 AM


I'm looking into this a bit more, I've seen some options that may solve this problem. I'm not sure if the below are full size or mini's, although the guys at Vanguard have told me they are full size. Maybe something like this as an option.

Edit: Better image.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z73_Sehv7oY/maxresdefault.jpg)

HOLY CRAP!!  That's Charlie!  He's been a bagger at Ramstein AB since Moses was a Private!!

I just found the Stars & Stripes article about this.

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/air-force-boss-learned-important-lessons-from-longtime-ramstein-commissary-bagger-1.484081 (https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/air-force-boss-learned-important-lessons-from-longtime-ramstein-commissary-bagger-1.484081)

Sorry...I got excited.  Continue with the OCP discussion.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 26, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
That's ok. Since non-uniform topics digress into uniform topics, uniform topics have to digress into non-uniform topics!

 >:D


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: sarmed1 on August 26, 2018, 10:45:25 AM
snip...

Quote
4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, ...snip
etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?


Quote
(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.

I would say no to the Ranger Tabs here-as its geared toward the military tab a this point.  I would rather see someone re-design the Ranger qualification/award system to either incorporate it into the school patch or as a separate qualification badge consistent with existing badges.

patrol cap:  its in the AFI this way as well, so its now going to be an AF thing, and the hat comes with the Velcro in place

MK
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 26, 2018, 12:33:22 PM

snip...

Quote
4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, ...snip
etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?


Quote
(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.

I would say no to the Ranger Tabs here-as its geared toward the military tab a this point.  I would rather see someone re-design the Ranger qualification/award system to either incorporate it into the school patch or as a separate qualification badge consistent with existing badges.

patrol cap:  its in the AFI this way as well, so its now going to be an AF thing, and the hat comes with the Velcro in place

MK

I like the idea of reorganizing the CAP ranger tabs onto the school/NCSA patch. Have the hawk patch, with a rocker above and/or below the patch or incorporated into the patch in some way. That'd likely have to be on HMRS to redesign their current system, but I wouldn't see it being too difficult.

As for the patrol cap, you're correct, it's now in the Air Force instruction and is no longer an Army only thing.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 27, 2018, 06:15:34 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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Colonel on the Uniform Committee s/he may be, but that doesn’t make them the final arbiter for the decision. Staff officers aren’t command officers.

About all it means is “To the best of my knowledge, as a member of the Uniform Committee and as someone currently assigned to Uniform project responsibilities, I am not aware of any decision being made or even discussed about OCPs”). Or something like that.

For all we (or the colonel) know(s), an order could come out tomorrow giving the green light to OCPs.


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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 27, 2018, 08:59:12 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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They won't be getting them because we haven't asked yet and the current members of the committee are not inclined to ask anytime soon.
AFAIK nobody has asked the Air Force how they feel on this subject.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 27, 2018, 05:13:00 PM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

Sent using Tapatalk

They won't be getting them because we haven't asked yet and the current members of the committee are not inclined to ask anytime soon.
AFAIK nobody has asked the Air Force how they feel on this subject.
Chickens scarycats


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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: MSG Mac on August 27, 2018, 06:14:11 PM
RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 27, 2018, 08:20:32 PM
RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform

When the BDU came out the Air Force and CAP had a plan within a year when CAP would transition.

Not saying we have to have it tomorrow, but planning now for an orderly transition would be just good management.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 28, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform

When the BDU came out the Air Force and CAP had a plan within a year when CAP would transition.

Not saying we have to have it tomorrow, but planning now for an orderly transition would be just good management.

Planning-wise, that sounds appropriate. You always need to look 'down the road.'

The fact is that the initiation of ABUs in CAP came almost a decade after the Air Force started wearing them. And the transition in CAP just happened to extend into a time frame that coincidentally fell within a new uniform replacing the ABUs in the Active Duty fleet. The chips just fell that way.

BDUs are becoming more difficult to find in brand-new condition. ABUs will start to have that same effect during the transition into OCP for Ma Blue. The OCPs will be hard to find new once the Air Force picks its next uniform in 10 years. That's just how the game works.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 28, 2018, 12:01:50 PM
The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on August 28, 2018, 12:08:56 PM
The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.

You are correct. Which, is good for us. To further things, IF any branch switches to a uniform that's not already in their inventory, it will be because EVERY branch is doing it. That's either going to slow down any adoption of a uniform past OCP, or everyone will go OCP now that AF and Army have it. Couple that with the prevalence of Multicam in the "tactical" world and we can see that OCP will surely be a good plan to get to.

But like I and others have said throughout this thread, CAP won't start a transition until everyone in Active, Guard, Reserves have them. We are last in line BUT, that's April 2021. Really, there is no reason we can't develop a plan, and have all the bugs solved long before we get to a phase in date. How awesome would that be if we had 2 years from announcement of us switching to when the phase in starts? How many revisions of the ABU wear memorandum did we get to before it was settled (is it all settled now with ABU)? Time is on our side on this one, so I started this thread so we could get ahead of the 8-ball for once.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 28, 2018, 12:44:22 PM
The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.

You are correct. Which, is good for us. To further things, IF any branch switches to a uniform that's not already in their inventory, it will be because EVERY branch is doing it. That's either going to slow down any adoption of a uniform past OCP, or everyone will go OCP now that AF and Army have it. Couple that with the prevalence of Multicam in the "tactical" world and we can see that OCP will surely be a good plan to get to.

But like I and others have said throughout this thread, CAP won't start a transition until everyone in Active, Guard, Reserves have them. We are last in line BUT, that's April 2021. Really, there is no reason we can't develop a plan, and have all the bugs solved long before we get to a phase in date. How awesome would that be if we had 2 years from announcement of us switching to when the phase in starts? How many revisions of the ABU wear memorandum did we get to before it was settled (is it all settled now with ABU)? Time is on our side on this one, so I started this thread so we could get ahead of the 8-ball for once.

Not to ignore the previous point brought up about the ABU instructions not yet incorporated into the CAPRs after two years.

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: wacapgh on August 28, 2018, 02:51:51 PM
BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 28, 2018, 03:32:54 PM
BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.

Another unnecessary and confusing affectation that makes it harder to be a member, or worse, mom of a member.

Uniform instructions for an organizaiton like CAP need to be written in a way that assumes the reader has never,
and will never, read a military-style regulation or instruction - IOW, plain English.

The main readership for that document is people who are already confused, either because they are new,
or because no one locally is helping them.  The current format just makes that worse, and then is compounded by
the myriad unnecessary differences between the various versions of the multiform and what can be worn
on this, that or the other.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 30, 2018, 09:47:59 AM
BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.

Another unnecessary and confusing affectation that makes it harder to be a member, or worse, mom of a member.

Uniform instructions for an organizaiton like CAP need to be written in a way that assumes the reader has never,
and will never, read a military-style regulation or instruction - IOW, plain English.

The main readership for that document is people who are already confused, either because they are new,
or because no one locally is helping them.  The current format just makes that worse, and then is compounded by
the myriad unnecessary differences between the various versions of the multiform and what can be worn
on this, that or the other.

Do what the Army did: develop a confusing regulation with a confusing guidance pamphlet to go along with it.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 30, 2018, 08:11:16 PM
......
4.1.1.1. Rank Insignia is mandatory for all personnel. For CAP Cadet Airmen Basics or Senior members with no rank, a blank, Navy blue CAP Velcro tab shall be worn.

4.1.1.1.1 Officer rank insignia will silver; Second Lieutenant and Major rank insignia will be Gold.

4.1.1.1.2. Enlisted rank will be silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.3. Cadet Officer rank will be Silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.4 Cadet Enlisted rank will be metal pinned rank on a blank Navy Velcro tab with rank placed centered horizontally and vertically.

4.1.2.1. Name and CAP tapes embroidery will be silver on Navy Blue tape. Name and CAP tapes may be sewn on or affixed with Velcro; however the sewn tapes must maintain a consistent horizontal length to the Velcro affixed tapes.

Based on the pics provided, the blue tapes don't look right. The colors are not complimentary. I think tan tapes (and associated badges in tan cloth) would be more appropriate. Tan is contrasting, but it's still a complimentary color. The contrast would also be notable in the "low light" conditions that the Air Force has mentioned before.

4.1.4. Badges and Commander’s Insignia Pin (Group and Unit Commanders). Wear of this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the nametape over the right pocket.

The commander badge is weird as the Air Force currently has it written. Current commanders wear as noted, but I saw something about graduated commanders wear on the left sleeve. Looking at the uniform, it doesn't look like there's a really good placement for it below the nametape.

4.1.5.1. One full color patch as authorized by Attachment 4 may be affixed with Velcro to the left sleeve centered on the OCP shirt. Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area.

4.1.5.2. Organizational unit of assignment patches may be worn on the right sleeve.  Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area unless authorized functional badges or joint qualification tabs are worn.

I would change that to more closely mirror the Air Force. They're putting it on the left side, and I think that the left side should be exclusively for the unit patch as far as CAP is concerned. If a unit doesn't have one, then nothing would be worn in that position until they come up with a unit patch. No preemption or overrides allowed.

[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

Make the flag mandatory. It would probably look odd without it.

The Air Force has made the right sleeve a higher headquarters placement, or at commander's option, a combat patch may be worn. I would say go with it as an optional placement for a wing patch, or allow NCSA or some of the other patches that used to be allowed on the right sleeve of the BDU, or even things like the Commo, or Safety patches. (Additionally, I would allow patches other than the unit patch that would normally be permitted on the front pockets of the BDU be worn. Essentially, if you had a patch that could be worn on the front, you can just wear it on that sleeve if you don't feel like sewing it on the front. Plus, it would be easy to change out patches for the setting you're in pretty easily. Sewing it on a front pocket would probably be a PITA anyway. )

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

I don't have any of those, but I'd love to see people allowed to wear them if they earned them. The only stipulation I would have is that their wear would only be if it's a permanent award. If it's the kind of patch (such as a brassard) that is only worn while performing specific duties, then it doesn't need to be worn on CAP uniform.

Probably won't cost anyone anything, either. The people who would wear them already have them.

I like the idea of reorganizing the CAP ranger tabs onto the school/NCSA patch. Have the hawk patch, with a rocker above and/or below the patch or incorporated into the patch in some way. That'd likely have to be on HMRS to redesign their current system, but I wouldn't see it being too difficult

I had a different idea for Hawk Mountain tabs, but I like this one. Wouldn't be really all that hard to do.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 31, 2018, 10:42:29 AM
^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 31, 2018, 10:47:32 AM
^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.

The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.
The black boots and the different colored name/branch tapes do that.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on August 31, 2018, 11:28:36 AM
The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.

The "low light" verbiage no longer appears in 10-2701.

This is now the only comment in regards to uniforms (Page 4
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F.pdf

"1.2.3.2.3. Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards
for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring
distinction from Air Force uniforms
and identification cards"
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 11:54:35 AM
^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.

I was considering availability. You can find the desert tan nametapes pretty easily, inexpensive, and you can find badges embroidered on tan, too. We'd need to have CAP badges made in that color scheme, but I don't think that would be too hard. And it would probably be easier for just about anyone to make them on tan cloth. I would imagine that most of the producers already have tan cloth in stock. It would be a matter of feeding a different cloth, and different color thread into the embroidery machine.

As TheSkyHornet mentioned, we are required by directive to show some distinctiveness. I wouldn't mind the colors being distinctive if they're complimentary. Navy blue actually looked OK on BDUs, but it doesn't seem to really work on OCP. I see no reason to change our patches at all, they don't need to be subdued, and I think most of the colors would look just fine with OCP. Full color patches on it would be easily recognizable as different from military personnel. Even in the aforementioned low light conditions (Might not be required anymore, but making an effort on the distinctiveness wouldn't hurt.)

When it comes to badges, some people like to see military badges in the same color as the CAP ones. That would be easily doable. You can buy them on tan cloth right now. Adding CAP ones would not take long, someone just has to make the decision, and ask Vanguard to start producing them. If someone made that decision today, they could probably be available by the end of next week. Coyote Brown cloth embroidered badges would probably take a little while, manufacturers would need to acquire the cloth, and who knows how much of a premium they'd want to charge for them to acquire it?

I'm sure Vanguard wouldn't mind charging a few dollars more to make our patches available with Velcro. Personally, I've used some adhesive backed Velcro a large number of times.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 01:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 31, 2018, 01:58:58 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.
 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: LATORRECA on August 31, 2018, 02:00:00 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on August 31, 2018, 02:00:41 PM
The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.

The "low light" verbiage no longer appears in 10-2701.

This is now the only comment in regards to uniforms (Page 4
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F.pdf

"1.2.3.2.3. Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards
for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring
distinction from Air Force uniforms
and identification cards"


That's even worse then before because now it's a totally subjective decision by the CAP-USAF Commander.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 02:15:56 PM
......


Based on the pics provided, the blue tapes don't look right. The colors are not complementary. I think tan tapes (and associated badges in tan cloth) would be more appropriate. Tan is contrasting, but it's still a complimentary color. The contrast would also be notable in the "low light" conditions that the Air Force has mentioned before.



Agree with the idea about how certain colors can be more "complementary" than others -- while still being distinct enough to use on CAP uniforms.  Using this type of thinking as a guide allows CAP uniforms to look the best (and the most professional) that they possibly can.  This would be a very good guiding principal for CAP to use in future decision making.  You totally have me on board when it comes to this... and I think the vast majority of people will probably agree.

Another distinct but complementary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

This last part is, again, just a personal opinion =

in my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or any other "complementary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SCE124 on August 31, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.

Remember in this day and age online ordering is huge! Major websites like Amazon and Walmart sell Coyote Brown boots of all brands, styles, and price points. These sites offer free 2-day shipping (in most cases) and free exchanges if the size is incorrect. For what it's worth Vanguard currently carriers a single pair of Bates black boots and I'm sure they would carry Coyote brown if that is the route taken. I know that some of my local Walmarts carry Coyote Brown regulation boots in the stores for $44. They fit similar to sneakers (comfy) and, IMO, would be ideal for our cadet members over the awful Rothco Jungle boots that a lot of our Cadets currently wear.

Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: xyzzy on August 31, 2018, 04:27:45 PM
I would not like to see two different uniforms with two different boot colors, because members may be transitioning among woodland, ABU, corporate BDU, and in the future, OCP. Either  allow a choice of black or coyote brown, or allow a long transition period and allow coyote brown with all utility and flight uniforms.

Currently we allow black boots with Class A, Class B, and aviator shirt uniforms. I don't think coyote brown would look great with those uniforms.
Title: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 31, 2018, 06:11:53 PM
Please, please, can we stop talking about “complimentary colors?” None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

“ComplEmentary colors” are what we are looking for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 06:48:16 PM
Please, please, can we stop talking about “complimentary colors?” None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

“ComplEmentary colors” are what we are looking for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noted. My screw up entirely.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 06:55:28 PM
Please, please, can we stop talking about “complimentary colors?” None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

“ComplEmentary colors” are what we are looking for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


oh how true.  you are right!

lol...  ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 06:57:58 PM
Another distinct but complimentary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

OD would work. I was considering something that was distinctively different, but if they decided on OD, that could work.

in my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or any other "complimentary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).

I've actually seen white on OD. Never really cared for it. But, I'd be more on board with that than the blue tapes.

Wish I had some OCPs to mock this up. (Wife wouldn't be happy with me spending that kind of money on a bunch of nametapes, so I'd have to sneak them.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 07:18:07 PM
Another distinct but complementary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

OD would work. I was considering something that was distinctively different, but if they decided on OD, that could work.

in my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or a
ny other "complimentary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).

I've actually seen white on OD. Never really cared for it. But, I'd be more on board with that than the blue tapes.

Wish I had some OCPs to mock this up. (Wife wouldn't be happy with me spending that kind of money on a bunch of nametapes, so I'd have to sneak them.)

yeah, just bouncing around ideas... about what could work.  these CAPTALK conversations are just sharing thoughts & ideas.  the only thing that counts at the end of day, is what the powers-at-be eventually decide to make official.

it is nice to have a "think tank" online... where everyone can compare & contrast their ideas.  very occasionally... something tangible might come out of it (if a good idea spreads and gets traction).  other than that... we all just get to add our voices to the conversation.

like you... I also have seen white lettering/stitching on OD in the past.  on certain uniforms, it can look good... even if not "the best ever seen".  it probably would seem to most people as "not bad"... just good (blending with the uniform well enough to make it look professional).

Certainly I do agree that when it comes to any possible OCP uniforms... OD green tapes (or some type of similar color/shade) badges with white/silver lettering & stitching... would do better than dark blue.  Must say though, that the dark blue "Air Force Blue" looks very good on woodland BDU... and of course on the BBDU.

Thank you for that CAP & Air Force leadership!  Much appreciated for this great uniform improvement of a few years ago!!

Like someone said earlier on in the thread... any uniform changes are likely to be quite a few years down the road from now (since we just had big changes recently in 2016).  I'm quite content with things for now... considering that many things have improved.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 07:49:03 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.



Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!

And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: xyzzy on August 31, 2018, 08:35:33 PM
And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I prefer to buy boots locally, rather than put up with the hassle of sending boots back and forth until I find a pair that fits well enough (and if I were buying locally, maybe I would have found some that fit even better a half size different, or in the brand in the next aisle). From that point of view, black is best, because so many public safety professionals wear them. Coyote brown is pretty good too, especially if the people evaluating uniform compliance don't have any scientific color-measuring equipment.

The nearest Air Force base that I  might be able to purchase uniforms at is 180 miles away.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on August 31, 2018, 09:03:01 PM
Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

That suggests our uniforms are designed based upon mission requirements, which they are not.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on August 31, 2018, 11:59:01 PM
I remember a wise, old CAP Lt Colonel who once mocked up a pair of OG ACUs with blue tapes and patches. Probably the best looking uniform I’ve seen to date, that all members could wear because it is not nor ever has been an official military uniform. But it would be too practical hence why it’ll never go anywhere.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAP9907 on September 01, 2018, 12:13:08 AM
Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

That suggests our uniforms are designed based upon mission requirements, which they are not.

Unfortunately, I could not agree more with your statement.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 11:47:10 AM
And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I understand having some differences, but don't see the need to go drastically different with black boots. If OCPs are approved for CAP, we'd probably still have full color patches, and some pretty different nametapes.

The black boots with ABUs don't really look good. I've seen the fakers wearing black boots with ACUs, and it it's pretty bad. We don't want that association. It's tacky, and the ones I see doing it are trying to get discounts or freebies.

I think insignia difference is all that is necessary. The have been posts on here about people finding coyote boots in Walmart pretty inexpensive, and Walmarts are pretty common. Go with the stuff that still looks uniform instead of something kludged.

I don't want anything that needs to be shined either. Shined boots are just not necessary with a field uniform.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 02, 2018, 12:08:22 PM
And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I understand having some differences, but don't see the need to go drastically different with black boots. If OCPs are approved for CAP, we'd probably still have full color patches, and some pretty different nametapes.

The black boots with ABUs don't really look good. I've seen the fakers wearing black boots with ACUs, and it it's pretty bad. We don't want that association. It's tacky, and the ones I see doing it are trying to get discounts or freebies.

I think insignia difference is all that is necessary. The have been posts on here about people finding coyote boots in Walmart pretty inexpensive, and Walmarts are pretty common. Go with the stuff that still looks uniform instead of something kludged.

I don't want anything that needs to be shined either. Shined boots are just not necessary with a field uniform.

I really would prefer the switch to Coyote for the AF style uniforms. For those who say they get too dirty, or are impossible to clean. I say that's grade A Oscar Meyers. These boots have been worn for the last 10 years, and I've had to clean them several times but they are still more than serviceable and I've used them way harder than any other pair of CAP boots I've worn. I think we'd be fine with the swap. Of course Coyote wouldn't work well with the Corporate Field Uniforms, but those can still wear black boots.
 
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-0/p480x480/40668764_621938018202233_4700593623866015744_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeHlEsu8KwRA4t9y77C6kLPriyJVADE3aPjOV6bGdAtG7HNaAynP_59YakuTv-R4l1KbpqgsRs0iHUu8VIJCVV7PlnpU_ke6fU1WsoXs3MuO7g&oh=b0b128377ef0cde4abb0469697769848&oe=5BF48896)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 02, 2018, 12:34:44 PM
The reason those of you say the "black boots look tacky with OCP" is that you HAVE been USING Coyote Browns with OCP for years and are NOT willing to use different. If you were starting from scratch you would NOT give a darn!


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 01:15:16 PM
The reason those of you say the "black boots look tacky with OCP" is that you HAVE been USING Coyote Browns with OCP for years and are NOT willing to use different. If you were starting from scratch you would NOT give a darn!

I'm not willing to use different, because it's not necessary to do so. Our uniforms have been based on military uniforms, and that's NOT starting from scratch. Insignia is one thing, changing major components is something different.

I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe.”

I don't want a "wannabe" appearance.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 02, 2018, 01:32:19 PM
I'm willing to wear black boots if that's what it ends up being, BUT, I would prefer coyote boots. Either way... It is more visually similar and aside from the change itself, there aren't many reasons not to do it when this uniform change happens. Not everyone who wants the coyote boots has been using them, even if there are a few who have.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 01:33:10 PM
I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

That shipped sailed a loooong time ago, and ain't comin' back any time soon.

I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe.”

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 02:31:55 PM
I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

That shipped sailed a loooong time ago, and ain't comin' back any time soon.

Not really.

I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe.”

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

This mindset is a problem. Blowing them off with "So?" Isn't really a wise idea. We'd like the military to take us seriously, not snicker at us. What happens at the lower levels is happening at the higher ones too. We just don't hear it from the higher levels, but we see it in the policy that they dictate.

Considering there's a lot of military resources we make use of, their view of CAP does carry a significant amount of weight.

As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

So you think it's an affectation to adopt the same uniform ensemble that the Army and Air Force are using?  How many other uniform combos are they likely to use boots with? Most people with one utility uniform type aren't changing it up with other ones. Since two service branches are now using this ensemble, coyote boots are going to be around for a while. Even the Air Force decided to do it completely, they're not even using different color undershirts, belts, hats, and socks like they did with the BDU.

There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.

A valid point, but we're not wearing uniforms in which that kind of footwear would be appropriate.

Overall, I feel that only a few minor insignia differences would present the most appropriate appearance. When the public sees CAP,  they should see professionalism. I don't think changing stuff up is going to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 02:48:34 PM
I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe.”

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

This mindset is a problem. Blowing them off with "So?" Isn't really a wise idea. We'd like the military to take us seriously, not snicker at us. What happens at the lower levels is happening at the higher ones too. We just don't hear it from the higher levels, but we see it in the policy that they dictate.

Considering there's a lot of military resources we make use of, their view of CAP does carry a significant amount of weight.

I didn't say "blow them off" I said "explain and move on"  - we have far too many members that get themselves wrapped around the axle with
the military, be it uniforms, saluting, etc., many of these same members who will have a single, or limited interaction with the military
at best.

What garners CAP respect is behavior and execution, not uniforms.  I guarantee you that members who show up, do their jobs and leave
with little fanfare or drama will garner a lot more respect then those same members looking "tight and right" in a given uniform
and writing checks they can't cash, causing drama, or generally not doing their jobs.

The above isn't mutually exclusive, of course, but the former is what is important.
As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

So you think it's an affectation to adopt the same uniform ensemble that the Army and Air Force are using?

Yes.  And I've said so any number of times.  The ABU only serves affectation (i.e. affinity) with the USAF.  It is a mission
detriment in regards to ES, and defeats its one reason for existing when members at all levels wear it improperly.

There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.

A valid point, but we're not wearing uniforms in which that kind of footwear would be appropriate.

Why?  Appearance?  Again that's affectation not function.  You blouse pants to keep out critters and moisture.
neither of which are a "risk" outside field operations.

Want to increase the number of cadets involved in ES?  Require GTM3 to wear boots bloused.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:59:46 PM
I didn't say "blow them off" I said "explain and move on"  - we have far too many members that get themselves wrapped around the axle with the military, be it uniforms, saluting, etc., many of these same members who will have a single, or limited interaction with the military at best.
With any response of "So?" you're blowing them off. Just because you're not saying it to their faces doesn't mean you're not. It shows that their views are unimportant.

What garners CAP respect is behavior and execution, not uniforms.  I guarantee you that members who show up, do their jobs and leave with little fanfare or drama will garner a lot more respect then those same members looking "tight and right" in a given uniform and writing checks they can't cash, causing drama, or generally not doing their jobs.

The above isn't mutually exclusive, of course, but the former is what is important.
What is more impressive is when a professional appearance is presented, and professional behavior is displayed. One or the other can increase opinion, but why count on only one or the other? Both would probably increase awareness and support of CAP. And potentially increase the rolls as well. Never a bad thing.

Both are important. You know as well as I do that you aren't going to trust someone that looks like a rag bag, regardless of what their competence is.

Yes.  And I've said so any number of times.  The ABU only serves affectation (i.e. affinity) with the USAF.  It is a mission
detriment in regards to ES, and defeats its one reason for existing when members at all levels wear it improperly.

I've never seen it as a mission detriment. I will agree that it's an issue when worn improperly. But, improper wear is not a valid reason to not use it.

Why?  Appearance?  Again that's affectation not function.  You blouse pants to keep out critters and moisture. neither of which are a "risk" outside field operations.

Want to increase the number of cadets involved in ES?  Require GTM3 to wear boots bloused.

Not sure I'm following here. Are you saying it's affectation to not want sneakers? I think I missed something here.

Not following as to wearing boots bloused either. Everyone is blousing boots with that particular type of field uniform.

If, or when, CAP gets authorized the OCP uniform, I would hope it would be simple differences for CAP, not drastic ones. The color patches will probably look just fine with it, just go with some different color nametapes that won't clash, and call it done.

The way it's been done before is "CAP distinctive insignia" (at least before the ABU,) not "CAP wears a few parts but it looks totally different." That maintained the association with the Air Force, which is pretty important to CAP's existence.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:30:20 PM
Not following as to wearing boots bloused either. Everyone is blousing boots with that particular type of field uniform.
Well, first I can tell you from personal observation "not so much", but that gets to the proper wear, and is also
the case with the ABU.

Up until 2014, neither boots, nor blousing, was required with the CFU, and lots of people wore normal street
shoes with it.  I don't recall Superman needing to reverse the rotation of the earth to fix the problems it caused.

You may have a different CAP experience, and mine is more likely in the same direction, but on the whole, the
majority of CAP members will never encounter a member of the military while in multiform, never set foot on a military
base, and the issue of their distinctiveness, or lack thereof, never comes up.

And for those that do encounter them, they are more then likely CAP-USAF people who already know the score.

Most members will never participate in a mission large enough to have anyone else but CAP members in the
room, and when there are large, multi-agency activities, the ICP staff is likely to be in golf shirts as that is what the
majority of the other agencies wear as their only uniform.

On the rare occasion the issue comes up, CAP needs to be polite and then move on - agreeing with
"how poor the boots look" which is a subjective opinion at best, because seriously who really cares,
is as unprofessional as any appearance issues that don't exist.

"We're an auxiliary, we have to purchase all our own equipment, and this is what is allowed."

It is somewhat amusing, that in a CAP paradigm where at any given activity there can be nine people
in "uniform", all doing the exact same duty, wearing nine different types of clothing and colors, with the
ranking member wearing a realtor's jacket, and people think boot color is the issue with professional appearance.

As of writing this, there are 3 field uniforms, 2 flights suits, 2 service uniforms, and 3 different approved golf shirts.
That's 10 different combos, all approved for wear at any time (or at least argued so and done).

It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 09:18:28 PM
Well, first I can tell you from personal observation "not so much", but that gets to the proper wear, and is also
the case with the ABU.
People should be following the standard. I don't think I've ever seen a CAP member that didn't have bloused boots in BDUs. If you have, why didn't you correct it?

Up until 2014, neither boots, nor blousing, was required with the CFU, and lots of people wore normal street shoes with it.  I don't recall Superman needing to reverse the rotation of the earth to fix the problems it caused.

Not really aware of any problems that caused. If they wore it as permitted by the book, there shouldn't be any issue.

You may have a different CAP experience, and mine is more likely in the same direction, but on the whole, the majority of CAP members will never encounter a member of the military while in multiform, never set foot on a military base, and the issue of their distinctiveness, or lack thereof, never comes up.

And for those that do encounter them, they are more then likely CAP-USAF people who already know the score.
Majority of senior members might not, the same can't really be said of cadets. Many activities are on military installations, military aircraft may visit, cadets often work at airshows that have some kind of military display, etc. That's the reason many cadets join in the first place.

Most members will never participate in a mission large enough to have anyone else but CAP members in the
room, and when there are large, multi-agency activities, the ICP staff is likely to be in golf shirts as that is what the majority of the other agencies wear as their only uniform.

On the rare occasion the issue comes up, CAP needs to be polite and then move on - agreeing with
"how poor the boots look" which is a subjective opinion at best, because seriously who really cares,
is as unprofessional as any appearance issues that don't exist.
Those other agencies have their own uniform standards, and should be concerned about adhering to it. It doesn't take genius to note that someone from another agency isn't "uniform." We kind of look at those things. It's part of our background of "attention to detail." They do the same thing.

"We're an auxiliary, we have to purchase all our own equipment, and this is what is allowed."

It is somewhat amusing, that in a CAP paradigm where at any given activity there can be nine people
in "uniform", all doing the exact same duty, wearing nine different types of clothing and colors, with the
ranking member wearing a realtor's jacket, and people think boot color is the issue with professional appearance.

As of writing this, there are 3 field uniforms, 2 flights suits, 2 service uniforms, and 3 different approved golf shirts.
That's 10 different combos, all approved for wear at any time (or at least argued so and done).

It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.
The excess of uniform types has been addressed in the past. I think that such variation could be part of our image being haphazard. But, those issues aren't valid reason to adopt a major deviation from the common uniform. Those deviations don't help the issue, they just add to it.

I'm all for eliminating a few items. Looks like the jumpsuit isn't in the latest manual. No reason to have two different styles of golf shirts (or even have them at all, but that's my take.) Personally, I'd give up rank insignia on the flight suit if it means we could all wear the sage green, they're pretty generic these days, and I don't like the plastic rank anyway. Some of the jackets in there I don't even see the point of. Make a corporate equivalent to the military variants, eliminate everything else, call it done.

OCP adoption is something that people are thinking about. it shows on this board, and I know people outside of here that are excited about them. It would be nice to have some well thought out ideas once it comes up at the top of the chain. A good thought out proposal may see faster adoption than "Oh, we can get that? Uh..., how we gonna do it?"
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 02, 2018, 09:24:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

I’ll start the timer for the first objection.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAP9907 on September 02, 2018, 10:03:10 PM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

I’ll start the timer for the first objection.

Certainly won’t get an objection from me!!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

Nope. It'll create more. I have never understood  the desire to disconnect Civil Air Patrol from the Air Force. Uniforms are part of the connection. CAP without the Air Force wouldn't be much.

I imagine this thread will be locked shortly. Went from discussion to dispute.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on September 03, 2018, 11:58:05 AM
This thread has gotten over-complicated. This should be the policy:

Cadets wear the same uniform as USAF within one year of adoption. Seniors do not wear USAF uniforms, corporate only.  Adopt navy blue or OD green OCP style for field uniforms. Done.

"But our membership will dwindle if seniors can't AF cosplay!"

So what. Those are the most dangerous members as it is, the organization would be better off without them.

"But we're part of the Total Force!"

Keep believing that while both the average Ma Blue airman and the American public have no idea who we are.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 12:33:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

Nope. It'll create more. I have never understood  the desire to disconnect Civil Air Patrol from the Air Force. Uniforms are part of the connection. CAP without the Air Force wouldn't be much.

I imagine this thread will be locked shortly. Went from discussion to dispute.

I agree. I created this thread for polite discourse. If you don't like that we wear AF-style uniforms, fine... that's your right to have that opinion, and you're free to only wear corporate uniforms yourself but this thread is about discussing making meaningful changes to the AF style uniforms (OCP, ABU, etc.). Lets try to keep it polite... please.

I'm under no illusion that our job differs from what active/reserve/guard AF does, but the AF is our adopted branch and as such it makes sense to wear their uniforms when able. I think many forget that the reason we have corporate is because there are instances where it really just makes sense. Each uniform has their place and for what we do, they all make sense.


Getting back to things though:

So what I've seen so far is many don't want a flag patch because we don't operate OCONUS. For that Id simply state that the reason I added it is as a national pride item. That said, in the sense of the reason some of that is worn on USAF utilities it makes sense whereas that was the only other reason I could  come up with. I'll remove it from my draft.

Boots are still split quite a bit. I don't have an opinion either way, but I do think that going Coyote would affect those who wear corporate AND USAF style uniforms. I'm going to leave it with both options in my draft to be chosen by a higher up once it's sent out. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward going Coyote... as we'd fit in a little better. Again, that would only affect USAF style utility uniforms. So, FDU, OCP. Corp still uses black, and black boots could still be worn with blues as is currently in there.

I really like what I've seen regarding patches. I like having a Wing or NCSA patch on the right panel, and squadron/unit patch on the left, with any tabs for military service over that patch and NSCA "tabs" over their respective NCSA patch on the right.

I know adding the name patch at the back of the hat as the AF is doing (and Army has been doing forever) may look a bit odd with the current tapes. I'm still on the fence about this, but it would be another "distinguishing" feature of a CAP OCP.

Speaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: supertigerCH on September 03, 2018, 02:41:08 PM

Speaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?


I have a feeling you're probably right about the current (dark Air Force Blue) name tapes.  Sure it's always possible that we might be surprised with another change in the coming years... but I think you're correct that they're going to be around for a while (regardless of whether we move to a new field uniform or not).

My thoughts on that... overall they are a decent color/shade.  A good improvement from the ultramarine blue.  Yes, of course there are a few colors that would be even better -- but when you start to imagine all of the other colors/shades we could get stuck with... what we have now is pretty good.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on September 03, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.



Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!

And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

And would you have wanted to buy those green boots when they were full price only to see them become obsolete now?  They will never go to anything else.

Gads.  Every time I hear "Green Boots" I can't help but think of the guy on Everest.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 03, 2018, 03:07:44 PM
So what I've seen so far is many don't want a flag patch because we don't operate OCONUS. For that Id simply state that the reason I added it is as a national pride item. That said, in the sense of the reason some of that is worn on USAF utilities it makes sense whereas that was the only other reason I could  come up with. I'll remove it from my draft.
I'd say keep it. This particular uniform on the military side has it, and I've always like wearing the flag, for the  military or Civil Air Patrol.

Boots are still split quite a bit. I don't have an opinion either way, but I do think that going Coyote would affect those who wear corporate AND USAF style uniforms. I'm going to leave it with both options in my draft to be chosen by a higher up once it's sent out. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward going Coyote... as we'd fit in a little better. Again, that would only affect USAF style utility uniforms. So, FDU, OCP. Corp still uses black, and black boots could still be worn with blues as is currently in there.
I'd lean toward coyote, too.

I really like what I've seen regarding patches. I like having a Wing or NCSA patch on the right panel, and squadron/unit patch on the left, with any tabs for military service over that patch and NSCA "tabs" over their respective NCSA patch on the right.
NCSA tabs? Is this a reference to the concept discussed concerning Hawk tabs being kind of "add on" tabs to the Hawk Mountain patch? If so, I like the idea, I think it's better than what I had in mind.

I know adding the name patch at the back of the hat as the AF is doing (and Army has been doing forever) may look a bit odd with the current tapes. I'm still on the fence about this, but it would be another "distinguishing" feature of a CAP OCP.
I was kind of stuck on that myself. (Unless we wanted to allow people to use OCP tape/colors that the Air Force uses? Probably wouldn't fly, but I can dream.)

Speaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?
I'd do tan/lighter brown thread, rather than white, but if AF approved white on OCP, I'd wear it. (I don't think it will fly, but I would wear it.) The only thing we'd have to deal with there is badges. White(or light color) thread on OCP cloth? I don't think the Air Force is going to permit pin on badges, so that's probably not going to be an option for CAP. (Would be nice and convenient though.)

While I was active Air Force, I'd simply go home, change my shirt and hat, and be ready for the CAP meeting. If we go with distinctive patches/tapes, a person could probably get away with just having patches and a hat (If they were Army or Air Force, anyway.) Of course, you wouldn't be able to sew on any badges, but it would work just fine.) I like the idea of people being able to do that so easily.

(I am still thinking about ordering some tapes with Velcro in the colors I thought of for mock up purposes, I just don't have any OCPs yet. If they don't get adopted, I'll stick them on back of my backpack.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 03, 2018, 09:08:19 PM

I'd do tan/lighter brown thread, rather than white, but if AF approved white on OCP, I'd wear it. (I don't think it will fly, but I would wear it.) The only thing we'd have to deal with there is badges. White(or light color) thread on OCP cloth? I don't think the Air Force is going to permit pin on badges, so that's probably not going to be an option for CAP. (Would be nice and convenient though.)

While I was active Air Force, I'd simply go home, change my shirt and hat, and be ready for the CAP meeting. If we go with distinctive patches/tapes, a person could probably get away with just having patches and a hat (If they were Army or Air Force, anyway.) Of course, you wouldn't be able to sew on any badges, but it would work just fine.) I like the idea of people being able to do that so easily.

(I am still thinking about ordering some tapes with Velcro in the colors I thought of for mock up purposes, I just don't have any OCPs yet. If they don't get adopted, I'll stick them on back of my backpack.)

This is something that I like as well. Can you imagine with the boots and uniform being the same, all a member would have to do is swap out the tapes, rank, and patches and go from AF to CAP without changing? All you'd probably have to do as a Senior is swap out a $8 hat. I like that, even though I don't have to deal with it anymore. It may also motivate a little for Active AF members to come help out CAP units since they wouldn't have to spend an arm and a leg for CAP specific uniforms/sewing etc.

Same goes for issued uniforms from squadrons. Why spend all that time sewing a uniform up for a fresh cadet when you can simply slap the tapes on and go to town on the important stuff?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 04, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
This should be the policy:

Cadets wear the same uniform as USAF within one year of adoption. Seniors do not wear USAF uniforms, corporate only.  Adopt navy blue or OD green OCP style for field uniforms. Done.

"But our membership will dwindle if seniors can't AF cosplay!"

If wearing a uniform similar to the Air Force is "cosplay," then why allow cadets to wear ABUs?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on September 04, 2018, 02:05:47 PM
If wearing a uniform similar to the Air Force is "cosplay," then why allow cadets to wear ABUs?

Here you go. (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: shuman14 on September 04, 2018, 03:04:30 PM
The Army is using Black thread for NAME and US ARMY tapes.

The Air Force is  using Brown thread for NAME and US AIR FORCE tapes.

Both are using Black and Brown threads for Rank Insignia.

The Army is using Black thread as the primary color for Badges with Brown as the secondary color when required.

The Air Force is using Brown thread as the primary color for Badges.

Perhaps Civil Air Patrol could use Blue thread on OCP for everything: NAME, CIVIL AIR PATROL, Rank and Badges.

The only issue might be the 2LT and MAJ ranks.

One thought might be to edge the Brown 2LT bar and MAJ oak leaf with Blue thread. Another option would be to copy what many State Guard/State Militia/State Military Reserves do, add State Initials under the Rank Insignia. So, in addition to Blue thread for the Normally Black thread Ranks add "CAP" in Blue thread under the Rank Insignia for all.

Truthfully, the White/Gold thread on Dark Blue tape/cloth does not look bad on OCP so Civil Air Patrol could just keep doing that and add Velcro as required.

I've never seen black boots worn with OCP so I can't speak to looks good/bad but I would recommend allow wearing black, tan and coyote brown boots with an extended wear out period and then require coyote brown only after that.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 04, 2018, 06:12:47 PM
Perhaps Civil Air Patrol could use Blue thread on OCP for everything: NAME, CIVIL AIR PATROL, Rank and Badges.

The only issue might be the 2LT and MAJ ranks.
As far as AF BDUs went, silver turned blue, gold turned brown. I do like the idea.

My only concern with it is that we've never had anything subdued with our utilities. I'd love to see this color arrangement, just a little wary that it wouldn't happen. (Partly, because it makes sense.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 05, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
If wearing a uniform similar to the Air Force is "cosplay," then why allow cadets to wear ABUs?

Here you go. (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)

Well, thanks for that. I'm so much wiser now having read that  ::)

You made the argument that it's cosplay for seniors but not cadets. Reinforce that argument.

The way I see it, uniforms are used to support cadet training. Could that training as easily be accomplished through the wear of a non-Air Force-style uniform (i.e., unique to CAP)?

We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 05, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
Sky,

Other people disagree. Using the words "style," "similar," and / or similar words is stating the two uniforms are similar but different. Your comment would be more on the spot if people would say "the Air Force uniform" instead of "an Air Force style uniform." See what I made there?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 06, 2018, 07:02:04 AM
We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.

There are probably semantic arguments there, but there really is no need.

Even though we use their uniform, the distinctive insignia does make it ours.

But, we shouldn't stray too far. Keep the association alive.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 09:54:33 AM
We use this term "Air Force-style" when, in fact, it is not the uniform of the U.S. Air Force. It's the uniform of Civil Air Patrol. The Air Force set guidelines on its wear to be distinct from theirs, but it's NOT an Air Force uniform. No Airman in the Air Force wears is, nor are they authorized to wear it, unless in CAP performing CAP functions.

There are probably semantic arguments there, but there really is no need.

Even though we use their uniform, the distinctive insignia does make it ours.

But, we shouldn't stray too far. Keep the association alive.

I agree. I feel that our association to the Air Force via our uniforms, operations and customs & courtesies, etc. is a good thing.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 12:05:38 PM
Figured I'd add since I only just saw this while browsing for some new work boots for at home:

https://tacticalgear.com/ocp-uniform (https://tacticalgear.com/ocp-uniform)

It looks like the new pattern will be commercially available pretty fast based on the quote below. That will further drive down costs.
Quote
Until recently, a commercial license for Scorpion OCP was not available, meaning the only way to get hands on the uniform was through government issue or AAFES stores. The government is now granting commercial licenses for OCP fabric and several manufacturers have begun production. Development of additional garments and accessories such as combat shirts, helmet covers and hats are also underway.

TacticalGear.com is the first place to offer the new uniform in Scorpion OCP. Available now on pre-order, you can shop pants and coats in the approved construction and pattern. Expected ship date 10/31.

They have also compiled a full history as well, which for you history buffs out there you may find interesting.

ADDITIONALLY

https://tacticalgear.com/mens-clothing?kwid=16012&gv=true (https://tacticalgear.com/mens-clothing?kwid=16012&gv=true)

Looks like the fire sale on ABU's has begun to get rid of what inventory they had.... I believe we did state this was likely to happen, so it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

(https://preachersinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/it-has-begun.jpg)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 12:24:16 PM
...it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

Why?

There's no shortage of woodland camo, and that's been off the military table for a decade depending on
how you define "off the table", and VG will continue to be the supplier of record for their CAP-ABU variant.

Shortages are the one thing not a factor in the decision here, and availability at MCSS / AAFES isn't either,
since the majority of members have no access to these outlets.

ABUs will be worn out / cleared out over the next 3 years, some wings with good DRMO access will
see an uptick in availability (most in bizarre / unmatched sizes / patterns / colors with ruined sleeves because of
sewn-on stripes) and retail availability will continue, including the secondary markets.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 12:37:48 PM
...it appears within the next couple years it's going to be VERY difficult to find ABU's.

Why?

There's no shortage of woodland camo, and that's been off the military table for a decade depending on
how you define "off the table", and VG will continue to be the supplier of record for their CAP-ABU variant.

Shortages are the one thing not a factor in the decision here, and availability at MCSS / AAFES isn't either,
since the majority of members have no access to these outlets.

ABUs will be worn out / cleared out over the next 3 years, some wings with good DRMO access will
see an uptick in availability (most in bizarre / unmatched sizes / patterns / colors with ruined sleeves because of
sewn-on stripes) and retail availability will continue, including the secondary markets.

You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

Couple the desire to remain consistent with our AF partners, the availability of the ABU (surplus and commercial stock) on the down swing, and prices of the ABU going up due to low numbers of runs to keep those small stocks furnished (that'll happen after the phase out by the AF is complete), you've got a recipe for some issues for CAP members who wear that uniform style. As a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well? (I don't own a business like that, but I do run a side business from my job and I have to make decisions like that all the time). My local Surplus store got rid of ABU's as soon as the news dropped and after speaking with the owner, she doesn't plan on buying any more (new or otherwise). I can't blame her.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 12:55:19 PM
You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

It's not a "surplus" (AFAICT), Rothco, Propper, and others continue to manufacture them and sell them.  There is and never has been
any shortage of woodland camo BDUs.

Was there whining from members who had ready-access to MCSS and now were forced to buy them like everyone else?  Yes.
But that's a very small percentage of members, and would probably be even smaller if the uniform rules were properly enforced.

As a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well?

Because you are contractually obligated to do so, which is one of the places the VG relationship benefits CAP.
They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear,
considering VG is supposed to be the official uniform supplier for CAP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 06, 2018, 01:11:20 PM
You forget, all branches at one time used woodland, and for many many years. There is surplus, but even so it was low enough that CAP felt it necessary (if coupled with the fact that the USAF went to the ABU) to make the swap after 10 years. Even if it is still available, it's because it was what I would consider a "popular" pattern. ABU's were phased out after 11? years and only used by one branch. This plus the unpopular nature of the pattern by many will make it harder to find commercially, and the desire by commercial suppliers to keep stock of anything ABU related is sure to be nearly non-existent. CAP will be the only organization using it.

It's not a "surplus" (AFAICT), Rothco, Propper, and others continue to manufacture them and sell them.  There is and never has been
any shortage of woodland camo BDUs.

Was there whining from members who had ready-access to MCSS and now were forced to buy them like everyone else?  Yes.
But that's a very small percentage of members, and would probably be even smaller if the uniform rules were properly enforced.

As a business owner selling products like uniforms, why would I want to spend that money to stock a uniform that almost nobody wants when I have to pay higher prices to stock it since it's not being made for others as well?

Because you are contractually obligated to do so, which is one of the places the VG relationship benefits CAP.
They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear,
considering VG is supposed to be the official uniform supplier for CAP.

Let me clarify, "surplus" as I meant in my statement was "additional supply" not "used uniforms you can find at surplus stores". This includes new stock from how I meant it. But even so, there is less Woodland going around than there used to be. I think you can probably concede that point at the very least.

But, to drive my point home the rest of the way from what you said... The ABU is NOT the BDU. Nobody but VG is going to want to stock it after this is all over, not in the quantities needed to sustain CAP members. Yes, VG will have it, but CAP will be the only ones wearing it. But, VG doesn't produce it, they only supply from the manufacturers, and they determine which runs of uniforms they want to do and how much to charge the distributors. When CAP becomes the only one wearing it, costs will rise because it won't make sense not to. We're going to have to look into making the swap at some point, and that's been stated several times in this thread.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 06, 2018, 01:47:26 PM
Let me clarify, "surplus" as I meant in my statement was "additional supply" not "used uniforms you can find at surplus stores". This includes new stock from how I meant it. But even so, there is less Woodland going around than there used to be. I think you can probably concede that point at the very least.

"Less", yes.  But "less" ≠ "shortage" in any way which is relevent to CAP, since the same retailers still stock it with no apparent issues,
and most members buy a single garment and wear it for a decade. Combat uniforms designed to be worn 40 hours a week,
don't wear out when they are worn 40 hours a year in a non-austere environment.

It makes your point about the market, but also makes mine about any perceived shortage, and reinforces
the idea that NHQ should be looking for mission-driven / member-centric uniform solutions, not concentrating on affinity,
especially in light of the inability to enforce the regs, defeating the affinity that is sought.

I would also point out that it's always been far harder for members to get blues then field uniforms, especially
service coats, wheel caps, and outerwear, but that lack of sufficient supply chain doesn't seem to have changed anything.

But, to drive my point home the rest of the way from what you said... The ABU is NOT the BDU. Nobody but VG is going to want to stock it after this is all over, not in the quantities needed to sustain CAP members. Yes, VG will have it, but CAP will be the only ones wearing it. But, VG doesn't produce it, they only supply from the manufacturers, and they determine which runs of uniforms they want to do and how much to charge the distributors. When CAP becomes the only one wearing it, costs will rise because it won't make sense not to. We're going to have to look into making the swap at some point, and that's been stated several times in this thread.

I don't disagree with this on the mean, which is why CAP should take this new opportunity to
normalize the field uniforms either through moving to the CFU or addressing the issues with
the AF leadership to remove the height / weight requirements for the field uniforms and just be done with it already.

Whether that means cadets in camo and adults in dark blue, or some other derivative which provides
a uniform appearance, meet mission mandates, and ends the carousel of clothing, anything is better then the
current situation.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Fubar on September 06, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
Whether that means cadets in camo and adults in dark blue, or some other derivative which provides
a uniform appearance, meet mission mandates, and ends the carousel of clothing, anything is better then the current situation.

I will point out "better" is completely dependent upon the prioritization of what's important when selecting a uniform. If mission requirements, cost, availability, and stability are important, yeah, let's get everyone on one uniform and move on. But if looking like you belong to the Air Force is the most important factor in uniform selection, well then I don't see the carousel of clothing anytime soon.

I of course know which way Eclipse falls on prioritization.  ;)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 06, 2018, 04:34:23 PM
So I refer back to my question regarding the comment about Air Force uniforms being a "cosplay" for senior members...

If camouflage is available, in some capacity, why not make it the universal uniform for all of CAP, and we just be distinctive on our own from the Air Force-style uniform? Why have a separate uniform for cadets? What would be the mission intent/end state behind that? Cadets wearing BDUs will all of the goodies on it isn't any different than wearing a blue uniform with all of the same goodies, for inspection and grooming purposes, that is. Really, what would the difference be? If the entire CAP force wore blue BDUs, how would that affect cadet training?

I think the bottom line goes back to it being a recruiting/marketing tool to emulate Air Force in our RECREN programs. It's a TLC subject: Why do cadets join CAP? The uniform is a key element. They wear a military-style uniform because it looks cool. Some learn to respect it over time; others still think it's cool. Is that a bad thing? Not so long as the objectives are accomplished along the way.

I'm fine being mandated either way. To Eclipse's point, pick something and let's move on.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on September 06, 2018, 11:33:08 PM
...They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear...
Should being the keyword there...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 09, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
...They sell a non-standard, CAP-specific version of the ABU which should be suitable for all members to wear...
Should being the keyword there...
I've been wondering about this for a day or so. What is not suitable about them?

(I'm not challenging, I haven't worn the ABU yet, so I have no point of view when it comes to their wear.)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2018, 04:09:48 PM
Nothing, except that VG ABUs are non mil-spec.  In fact they aren't even "ABUs", they are "CAP ABUs".

When compared side-by-side, they have a distinct pink hue, and the colors in general are more vibrant.

I say "should" be acceptable to members as since this is the official uniform source,
then it doesn't need to be available anywhere else, however those excited about
wear the ABU want to wear the same brands as the guys on TV, thus they want the "real thing"
and will purport a "shortage" will occur after the USAF adopts a new pattern.

Since they should be getting their uniforms from the official supplier, it's a non-issue
unless you want to interject tangential questions about what is worn and people's motivations.

VG seems very capable of ramping up pac-rim surplus production on anything CAP needs,
so "shortages" should be a thing.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Lakeshore-CAP-Ret on September 10, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.

More to it than that bro..


I read about the change in Stars and Strips. The AF needed a better field uniform, and it seemed a ‘no brainer’; cost, combat field use, and the AF can start issuing theses uniforms more quickly.


Why make this so mysterious? Cost, combat usage, availability.  Seems simply to me. Google AF and OCP. Get back with the class with what you find 😆
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: arajca on September 10, 2018, 06:52:23 PM
The AF did not goto the OCP because the Army is already wearing it.  There is more to that decision.

Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.

The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.

More to it than that bro..


I read about the change in Stars and Strips. The AF needed a better field uniform, and it seemed a ‘no brainer’; cost, combat field use, and the AF can start issuing theses uniforms more quickly.


Why make this so mysterious? Cost, combat usage, availability.  Seems simply to me. Google AF and OCP. Get back with the class with what you find 😆
There is also those folks in DC who said no more newly designed service specific field uniforms.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAPLTC on September 10, 2018, 09:38:46 PM
Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.
The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.
I read about the change in Stars and Strips. The AF needed a better field uniform, and it seemed a ‘no brainer’; cost, combat field use, and the AF can start issuing theses uniforms more quickly.
Why make this so mysterious? Cost, combat usage, availability.  Seems simply to me. Google AF and OCP. Get back with the class with what you find 😆

Yep.
And soon CAP will be wearing it too.
Going to looks awesome.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on September 10, 2018, 09:57:41 PM
Yep.
And soon CAP will be wearing it too.
Going to looks awesome.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/5b815a9ea9f95f8b6b2c7336e41008cf/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on September 10, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
Actually, that is the EXACT reason the Air Force went to it.
The ABU wasn't working and a replacement was desired. Adopting the OCP was seen as an economical way to do it since the Army had already spent the money needed to field it. And the Air Force had some experience wearing it already since by order of CENTCOM everybody in the AOR had to wear it.
I read about the change in Stars and Strips. The AF needed a better field uniform, and it seemed a ‘no brainer’; cost, combat field use, and the AF can start issuing theses uniforms more quickly.
Why make this so mysterious? Cost, combat usage, availability.  Seems simply to me. Google AF and OCP. Get back with the class with what you find 😆

Yep.
And soon CAP will be wearing it too.
Going to looks awesome.


"Soon" is relative. Based on my experience with uniform changes and transition times, and the recent change to ABUs, It could be until way into the 2020s before CAP sees OCPs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 11, 2018, 06:40:12 PM
Nothing, except that VG ABUs are non mil-spec.  In fact they aren't even "ABUs", they are "CAP ABUs".

When compared side-by-side, they have a distinct pink hue, and the colors in general are more vibrant.

So, CAP has it's own variation of "pinks."  ;D

I say "should" be acceptable to members as since this is the official uniform source,  then it doesn't need to be available anywhere else, however those excited about wear the ABU want to wear
the same brands as the guys on TV, thus they want the "real thing"and will purport a "shortage" will occur after the USAF adopts a new pattern.

Since they should be getting their uniforms from the official supplier, it's a non-issue unless you want to interject tangential questions about what is worn and people's motivations.
Many do want to wear "the Real Deal," and not what might be considered a "knock off." It can be a valid point of concern. I don't like the idea of a knockoff from a sole source.

VG seems very capable of ramping up pac-rim surplus production on anything CAP needs, so "shortages" should be a thing.
Not sure of Vanguard' sources on there products, so not sure what I think. I doubt Vanguard's ABUs meet anything near the same spec as Air Force ones.

I could see Vanguard wanting to extend wear on their sole source product. Not sure I like that idea either, especially with their history of harassing other suppliers. CAP would be better off going with military spec and standards. Vanguard will take a hit, but it's not like they're the best thing since sliced bread.

CAP really ended up with the short straw when it came to that deal.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: MSG Mac on September 11, 2018, 07:28:59 PM
National Uniform Committee (NUC) stated they have no plans for asking the AF for the new uniforms. Even if it was authorized it wouldn’t be until ALL Air Force Members’s including Reserve, ROTC, and JROTC get theirs.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 11, 2018, 07:30:31 PM
I've got a set of Propper (I think?) and a set of DLATS ABUs. I prefer the mil-spec quality (that's a first!). They're just the right comfort level (material-wise).

The pink hue looks funky to me. I always figured there was some slight variation to the fabric, but I'm also color deficient (so a lot of times that's me just accepting that my eyes are playing tricks). So it's not me after all.....


National Uniform Committee (NUC) stated they have no plans for asking the AF for the new uniforms. Even if it was authorized it wouldn’t be until ALL Air Force Members’s including Reserve, ROTC, and JROTC get theirs.

What?! No new uniforms?!?! But now what are we supposed to debate?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 11, 2018, 07:53:27 PM
Anything BUT uniforms!

Color of the sky in day and night.

Color of our planes.

Color of safety vests.

Sky's the limit!

 >:D


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on September 11, 2018, 07:55:38 PM
National Uniform Committee (NUC) stated they have no plans for asking the AF for the new uniforms. Even if it was authorized it wouldn’t be until ALL Air Force Members’s including Reserve, ROTC, and JROTC get theirs.

Mandatory wear date for Active Duty, Air Guard and Reserve is Sept 30, 2021.
A good chunk of the force already has this uniform because they've deployed in the past 5 years.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 11, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
A good chunk of the force already has this uniform because they've deployed in the past 5 years.

Which is, according to the tubes, causing it's own CAP-type controversy in that some of those early-issued
materials and patterns don't match the OCP of today, an maybe not what is ultimately the final pattern.

Nice to see sometimes that Big Brother has the same problems.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on September 11, 2018, 08:40:57 PM
I could see Vanguard wanting to extend wear on their sole source product. Not sure I like that idea either, especially with their history of harassing other suppliers.
The Intellectual Property belongs to CAP, not Vanguard. CAP is driving the "harassment", not Vanguard.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Starbird on September 11, 2018, 10:21:05 PM
Anything BUT uniforms!

Color of the sky in day and night.

Color of our planes.

Color of safety vests.

Sky's the limit!

 >:D

I do concur, sir! >:D
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on September 12, 2018, 12:51:50 AM
A good chunk of the force already has this uniform because they've deployed in the past 5 years.

Which is, according to the tubes, causing it's own CAP-type controversy in that some of those early-issued
materials and patterns don't match the OCP of today, an maybe not what is ultimately the final pattern.

Nice to see sometimes that Big Brother has the same problems.

Actually not a problem. You're allowed to wear them until they become unserviceable. The only restriction is that the trousers and the blouse have to match.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 12, 2018, 10:07:04 AM
Anything BUT uniforms!

Color of the sky in day and night.

Color of our planes.

Color of safety vests.

Sky's the limit!

 >:D

I see what you did there
>_>
<_<

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 12, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
Anything BUT uniforms!

Color of the sky in day and night.

Color of our planes.

Color of safety vests.

Sky's the limit!

 >:D

I see what you did there
>_>
<_<



Does that mean Muh Space Force uniforms? hahaha.

So as we talked about earlier, I think some of the stuff that's being done over on the "Ma Blue" side can be adapted. I had this made by VG for a go bag, but here it is on that "CAP-OCP" in the manner I was suggesting.

See the same:
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/41564851_273979020106437_264969623550558208_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6c33e32f381afac3f7186077e04f5a05&oe=5C18C5BB)(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z73_Sehv7oY/maxresdefault.jpg)

This type of badge wear modification could be done for an OCP-style corporate top as well like the TRU from Truspec.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Spam on September 12, 2018, 04:42:12 PM
Take off all 3 of those shoulder patches and continue to enforce weight & grooming and I'm okay with it for Cadets. Especially remove that subdued by all means, but clean it up and I would support it.

Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 12, 2018, 05:00:34 PM
Take off all 3 of those shoulder patches and continue to enforce weight & grooming and I'm okay with it for Cadets. Especially remove that subdued by all means, but clean it up and I would support it.

Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

Only reason the subdued is on that top is because I don't have a R-Side flag. I agree on that part. I also agree with enforcing weight standards for AF-style uniforms. I don't have a problem with full color patches. CAP has had that on the books for as long as I can remember. I can't say I've seen posers though in the 15 years I've been in CAP unless you count people trying to pose as actual military. Not sure how that relates to us though.

I can say I've only been asked a hand full of times "what branch are you in?" and respond with "I'm in Civil Air Patrol, it's the civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force, but we wear a similar uniform." and usually that garners a "Well thank you for that volunteer service!" and I always respond "Well thank you for your support!" Interaction done and everyone's happy. If they start asking more questions about the program, I can go on for a while longer.

I'm one that can and does wear the AF-style and Corporates depending on the setting I'm in. If I'm at a CAP event where utilities work, usually ABU's.

Even been to a few fema classes in ABU's but the entire group of CAP members was wearing the same uniform and all looked sharp. I think we had 6-8 and we were about 20% of the class. They are used to it though because we have a lot of military support and presence at our EOC's in the county, and they're well aware of all the help CAP can provide. We get calls for assistance pretty regularly.

Cadets are doing Blues tonight, but I'll be in the background working a lot of other things so the CWU is a good option for me. I do wear the same uniform as the cadets most of the time though to set the example on wearing the uniform properly. Blousing, shined/clean boots, all buttons buttoned, clean and serviceable appearance, hair in regs and within weight standards.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on September 13, 2018, 03:16:11 AM
Please... not “posers,” who are people who pose for photos, paintings, sketches or sculptures.

The word everybody seems to need is “poseurs.”




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 13, 2018, 06:29:12 AM
Please... not “posers,” who are people who pose for photos, paintings, sketches or sculptures.

The word everybody seems to need is “poseurs.”




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Does "fakers" work?  :D


See the same:
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/41564851_273979020106437_264969623550558208_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6c33e32f381afac3f7186077e04f5a05&oe=5C18C5BB)(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z73_Sehv7oY/maxresdefault.jpg)

This type of badge wear modification could be done for an OCP-style corporate top as well like the TRU from Truspec.
I don't care for the patch with badges on it. Granted, the guy in the lower picture is a General, and they have a lot of latitude with what they're allowed to do with their uniforms, but I don't think it looks right, and would not be for it for CAP.

I am a bit stuck when it comes to allowances for badges for CAP. Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank. (I know the Army requires that if badges are sewn on, tapes and rank are required to be sewn as well.)

Seems like requiring tapes/rank to be sewn on when badges are is the way to go. 

The blue tape/rank is growing on me, slowly. Don't think the colors are complementary, but I could live with it. I might still order some tan or khaki ones for mockup, I just want to see how it looks.

Bright color patches actually look pretty good to me. (And would be a lot easier to use. Some adhesive backed Velcro would have you good to go in just a few minutes.)

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Jester on September 13, 2018, 08:45:07 AM
I dig it a lot. Just a full color flag or no flag and continue pinning on cadet enlisted rank on the collar.

Port it over to a new dark blue corporate field uniform as well.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Dwight Dutton on September 13, 2018, 10:56:01 AM
This type of badge wear modification could be done for an OCP-style corporate top as well like the TRU from Truspec. I don't care for the patch with badges on it. Granted, the guy in the lower picture is a General, and they have a lot of latitude with what they're allowed to do with their uniforms, but I don't think it looks right, and would not be for it for CAP.

I am a bit stuck when it comes to allowances for badges for CAP. Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank. (I know the Army requires that if badges are sewn on, tapes and rank are required to be sewn as well.)

Seems like requiring tapes/rank to be sewn on when badges are is the way to go.  The blue tape/rank is growing on me, slowly. Don't think the colors are complementary, but I could live with it. I might still order some tan or khaki ones for mockup, I just want to see how it looks. Bright color patches actually look pretty good to me. (And would be a lot easier to use. Some adhesive backed Velcro would have you good to go in just a few minutes.)

When we finally get to this point the USAF method will be well established - and we will do the same thing, just in full color.

If everything on the uniform is on with Velcro, the badges would have to be too, and this does seem to be the logical way to do it, since the flight badge Velcro size is already well established.

While you can sew two regular badges on a flight badge rectangle piece yourself, It not much of a stretch to assume Vanguard would start selling the combination badge - and then national saying its all you can use.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 13, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
Take off all 3 of those shoulder patches and continue to enforce weight & grooming and I'm okay with it for Cadets. Especially remove that subdued by all means, but clean it up and I would support it.

Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

Only reason the subdued is on that top is because I don't have a R-Side flag. I agree on that part. I also agree with enforcing weight standards for AF-style uniforms. I don't have a problem with full color patches. CAP has had that on the books for as long as I can remember. I can't say I've seen posers though in the 15 years I've been in CAP unless you count people trying to pose as actual military. Not sure how that relates to us though.

I can say I've only been asked a hand full of times "what branch are you in?" and respond with "I'm in Civil Air Patrol, it's the civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force, but we wear a similar uniform." and usually that garners a "Well thank you for that volunteer service!" and I always respond "Well thank you for your support!" Interaction done and everyone's happy. If they start asking more questions about the program, I can go on for a while longer.

I'm one that can and does wear the AF-style and Corporates depending on the setting I'm in. If I'm at a CAP event where utilities work, usually ABU's.

Not sure that I've seen a lot of "call me military" guys. I've seen some that I can make that accusation toward, but maybe not frequently enough to call it an issue. More so, it's the people who weigh 250-lbs that wear sage flight suits and ABUs that really irk me. You know you're clearly out of standards. There's no hiding it. Honestly, it's more their commanders' fault than their own at that point.

Quote
Cadets are doing Blues tonight, but I'll be in the background working a lot of other things so the CWU is a good option for me. I do wear the same uniform as the cadets most of the time though to set the example on wearing the uniform properly. Blousing, shined/clean boots, all buttons buttoned, clean and serviceable appearance, hair in regs and within weight standards.

I generally wear the Air Force-style because of the cadets. I wear what they are required to wear. It's a much easier learning tool for them to understand rank insignia and appearance when we're in the same outfit. I had a cadet from another unit once ask me what my insignia was (granted, he was a C/SSgt...and I poked at that a bit when he didn't recognize my grade on ABUs). He said "I've never seen it before on a uniform. Everyone at my unit always wears polos." Fair enough. It's taught; it's not retained.

As someone who's 5 o'clock shadow grows in by 1500, I'm a stickler for shaving and haircuts. It's a real peeve of mine. But I've had that chat with cadets before: "Hey, look, man. I'm right there with ya. I've got to run home at lunch and shave for CAP tonight." It's an example I try to set. I've shown up before going "I shaved this morning, but I think it's too long right now." Asked my NCO. He says it's fine. I go back in the bathroom. "Nope, going back to civies." ... "No uniform tonight, Sir?" "Nah, I needed a shave." As someone who buzzes their head every other day, you'll never catch me out of compliance on that.

It's a training tool for me, nothing else. I have absolutely no issue wearing a 'civilian-appearing/corporate' uniform. But around cadets, I'm upholding that cultural environment. It just works for me, and that's the only way I know how to do it. It may work totally different for others. So to be clear: whatever uniform you're in, just wear it properly and set the example.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 13, 2018, 11:52:10 AM
To add---

That OCP with the CAP tapes actually doesn't look too bad. It's probably the color combinations for me that make it a bit more matching than the fairly light ABUs.

The bright patches on the OCP don't look good in the least. Almost cartoon-like.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on September 13, 2018, 11:59:54 AM


Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

You must have a different crowd down there in Georgia. Because we seem to have very little problem with "posers" out here in the Pacific Region.
People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 13, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 13, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?

I think intent. This is one of those "perception is reality" things. I dunno. Maybe I'm making excuses.

There are a few people I know of that are plastered all over social media who are, without even having to guess, outside of standards. I mean some fat freaking people. But it's the climate of their units. The Lt Col is too fat, so that makes it okay for the Captain, which makes it okay for cadets over 18. Even corporate uniforms can be worn in abysmal fashion by some people (greasy shirts, tears, looking like they haven't showered or done laundry in a month).

Those people are definitely out there.

I think it's less of them being posers, and more of it being normal for them.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 13, 2018, 12:11:35 PM
That doesn't make them "not posers".

If you're wearing a uniform, with intent to indicate actual affiliation, that you know you're not
authorized to wear, that's pretty much the definition of "poser".

Doesn't matter whether that's an LEO, FD, CAP, or astronaut.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 13, 2018, 02:14:57 PM
That doesn't make them "not posers".

If you're wearing a uniform, with intent to indicate actual affiliation, that you know you're not
authorized to wear, that's pretty much the definition of "poser".

Doesn't matter whether that's an LEO, FD, CAP, or astronaut.

And really that falls into a training issue. Some commanders may have a hard time addressing that to people, and you could argue if that person should command if they can't make those hard talks, but it's gotta be enforced and taught by our leaders for it to work.

A good example is a conversation I had with another senior recently regarding using a cadets first, last name, or simply calling them cadet. Younger cadets see it and emulate it without realizing that's not how junior cadets are supposed to talk to senior cadets. You'd have C/A1C's calling a C/Maj "Cadet" or "Last Name". So although yes maybe its acceptable for senior command staff to address cadets by "cadet" or other appropriate titles, we should use the ranks the same as the other cadets to set the example. It irks ME when a senior is discussing talking with another senior member to a cadet and says "So I want you to go speak to Bill about xyz..."

Same goes for uniforms, It's gotta be taught and enforced by our leaders and the example needs to be set by those folks. That goes for Squadron commanders and up as to where the buck stops, but every member is responsible for making sure it's adhered to.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 13, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank.

AF does not permit pin on badges. They mirror the Army on Velcro/sew-on — either one but all must be the same (except for the sleeves).
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: hamburgee on September 13, 2018, 08:24:06 PM
Let me just add that the Army is wearing full-color flag on the shoulder... In my opinion, it'd be bad to take away from a distinct part of the AF OCP-ACU by completely removing the flag... Honestly, the subdued flag won't hurt anyone if you ask me.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Spam on September 14, 2018, 12:41:26 AM

Hi Hamburgee. Allow me to respond why not the flag (and so many other things):


A/ Cost argument.
It hurts every cadet of modest means who has to pay that six dollars more. I have many cadets in my units that are on school lunch programs and can't afford boots or shirts. Every useless nice to have cool thing we propose adding, raises barriers to entry for poor kids. Every time someone lobbies for making Wing (or other) patches mandatory because of looks, or a desire to collect/trade patches, or who changes a uniform item that was just changed a few years ago, incurs a cost for those members. Therefore - think about our customers (all of them) before making uniform decisions. The flag doesn't pass this "need" test.

B/ Customer argument.
The Army is not our customer. Neither is the Navy. Neither are the Marines. If the USAF makes the decision to wear the flag, then and only then should we consider the ramifications.

C/ Logical mission need argument.
Subdued patches were introduced for lower visibility, specifically in combat areas. The American flag was introduced years ago to denote US affiliation of our troops overseas during operations with allied or coalition troops. Since CAP does not operate in OCONUS combat zones, and does not operate in combat with foreigners, we have zero mission need for the US Flag.

D/ "Distinctiveness" argument.
When CAP is mandated to have visibly distinct differences from the USAF uniform, it makes zero sense to consider adopting the same subdued flag patch, which is specifically designed to only be seen at close range. Especially since you use the term "distinct part", it argues AGAINST the flag.



It makes zero sense from all these perspectives to mandate wear of the flag (let alone the subdued flag) unless ones main motivation is to be a costumer who is pretending to be a deployed soldier.

Pivoting to the larger uniform issue, all these arguments apply more or less to every uniform item. Each item needs to "buy its way onto the uniform". We've seen so many wacky uniform ideas on this forum which are purely emotional and personally based, and don't follow a logical analytical approach (suggestions to adopt East German border guard outfits spring to mind). I feel that we have to respectfully stand up for a logical approach which is proactive, and not reactive, and considers our least advantaged members first.  I will hold out hope that someone at a national level is pursuing a systematic approach towards a uniform "road map" (but I'm really not holding my breath).


V/r
Spam

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Spam on September 14, 2018, 01:01:16 AM
People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?

I think intent. This is one of those "perception is reality" things. I dunno. Maybe I'm making excuses.

There are a few people I know of that are plastered all over social media who are, without even having to guess, outside of standards. I mean some fat freaking people. But it's the climate of their units. The Lt Col is too fat, so that makes it okay for the Captain, which makes it okay for cadets over 18. Even corporate uniforms can be worn in abysmal fashion by some people (greasy shirts, tears, looking like they haven't showered or done laundry in a month).

Those people are definitely out there.

I think it's less of them being posers, and more of it being normal for them.


I do not care what their "normal" is. I really don't care about their personal normal, if their poor attitude correlates with attitudes towards other CAP regulations than the uniform one (e.g. flight safety regs).

It is currently one of my job assignments to speak with those Lt Colonels and correct their "intent" or "perception" to reality and to the uniform standards. Also to ensure that our Group/CCs are checking their subordinates, and so on... I've had some terse conversations with several Field grade officers over the last year and a half, resulting in some departures (which is fine with me). I have a discussion pending with one unit commander (thanks for the reminder, actually).

That means they must accept a new "normal", or get out of CAP, period. Its not personal, but it is reality.


V/r
Spam

PS I am a "fat freaking" six foot four guy myself, these days. I hung up the USAF style a while back. Peoples personal fitness and shapes, just as their other preferences, are not my business - only reg adherence/compliance is, because this is a leading indicator of hazardous attitudes elsewhere.


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 14, 2018, 10:41:11 AM
^ Absolutely with you on everything in the last two posts.

I'm purely speaking from a philosophical standpoint to note intent, not compliance. Compliance has no regard for the reason as to why you're out of compliance. The intent is where we have to look at how it gets corrected. Someone who doesn't know or is misinformed is going to be treated far differently than someone who does know and doesn't care. A person operating under ignorance is a hazard because they don't pay attention to detail. A person operating under negligence is a hazard because they don't appreciate what those details offer.

I'm one that walks around at CAP activities and thinks "How does your unit operate like this? It's not a difficult thing to 'get.'" I follow a lot of CAP units on social media, and see a lot of photos with pretty obvious discrepancies. They go uncorrected by their local commanders well up the chain. Some people just don't care enough about it. What does that tell you?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Spam on September 14, 2018, 11:26:02 AM
Well, it could tell me several things, but it first prompts me to ask some concrete questions before going "off" on someone:


One, does the higher level command team even do social media (I do not, generally, because of work. CAP Talk is my only social media, for better or for worse). So, access may be an issue. See below for an option.


Two, does the higher commander have the bandwidth to regularly browse through all his/her subordinate unit websites. When you have a couple of dozen subordinate units packing photos and videos (some with two or even three different web sites) that's a lot of content to monitor. When commanders also have to deal with everything from ops, to reviewing personnel and admin, safety, and of course finance matters, that sort of thing gets dropped as low priority. I suppose a higher commander could delegate "uniform monitor" powers to the PAO shop... which would be logical, right? Have the PA refer (to use the IG term) any blatant violations for command attention.


Three, does the Wing include this topic in UCCs (Unit Commanders Courses) and does the commander emphasize adherence regularly (by example, by messages, by verbal/nonverbals including at face to face events). I have had communications from Captalk members who have never even seen a UCC put on in their Wing (where we try to do at least one and now possibly two a year, here). In short: effective education is better than ignorance.  I completely agree with you about ignorance being a contributor to hazard situations - perhaps not in terms of a uniform, but in terms of their being a leading indicator of across the board training issues and possibly hazardous attitude issues.


Four: I'm sure there are many other factors, but haven't the time at the moment...


V/r
Spam

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: shuman14 on September 14, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
Just to throw this out there for comparison, The Army authorizes the Velcro nametape and US ARMY Tape and rank to be Velcro-ed on or sewn on.

Pin-on Badges are worn with Velcro tapes, if the tapes are sewn on, badges must be too. No mixing and matching.

Flag patch is full color in garrison and CONUS and can be subdued when deployed.

Full color patches are not normally worn but can be worn for parades and other such ceremonies. I've seen that done once since the OCP's came out Berets were worn too as opposed to the Patrol Cap.

The one or two Air Force members I've seen in OCPs were attached to Army units and they were wearing their flags full color and Army unit patches so I can't speak to that being the norm or if a subdued flag is for the Air Force.

I don't think the CAP tapes look bad at all on OCP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 14, 2018, 09:42:18 PM
Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank.

AF does not permit pin on badges. They mirror the Army on Velcro/sew-on — either one but all must be the same (except for the sleeves).

So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.

We'll probably see a lot of airman sewing everything on. I kinda prefer to see the badges worn, it tells me what the person does.

Just to throw this out there for comparison, The Army authorizes the Velcro nametape and US ARMY Tape and rank to be Velcro-ed on or sewn on.

Pin-on Badges are worn with Velcro tapes, if the tapes are sewn on, badges must be too. No mixing and matching.

Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 14, 2018, 09:56:23 PM
So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.
Yeah basically. The AFI is silent on how to affix occupational badges, so theoretically it could be affixed either way. But if you’re going to sew on both the hook and loop sides of Velcro for your badge, you might as well just sew down everything.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 14, 2018, 09:59:40 PM
B/ Customer argument.
The Army is not our customer. Neither is the Navy. Neither are the Marines. If the USAF makes the decision to wear the flag, then and only then should we consider the ramifications.
But the AF *has* made the decision to wear the flag, so I’m not sure why this is a “if then and only then” comment.

Personally I don’t see the need for CAP to wear a US flag (maybe with a very fringe exception for overseas units if they can even wear BDU/ABU, I can’t remember). When was the last time we left the US in a utility uniform and needed to distinguish our country of origin?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on September 14, 2018, 10:05:56 PM
Yes, the overseas units can wear the utility uniforms. We had ODs and BDUs at my unit in Japan.

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Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on September 14, 2018, 10:59:48 PM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.

Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: CAP9907 on September 14, 2018, 11:06:12 PM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.

Yes indeed.. lots of talk about a ‘possible’ (not probable) OCP uniform transition when we are not even halfway into the ABU transition. Good thing I have my popcorn...
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 06:12:21 AM
So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.
Yeah basically. The AFI is silent on how to affix occupational badges, so theoretically it could be affixed either way. But if you’re going to sew on both the hook and loop sides of Velcro for your badge, you might as well just sew down everything.
You're right as far as the Air Force being silent. The guidance is strange. The newest 36-2903 released in July just says "Occupational badges may be worn centered ½ inch above the USAF tape using spice brown embroidery on the OCP background."  It doesn't say whether the badges are sewn directly or if they can be affixed to Velcro.

Honestly, I hope the Air Force doesn't do the "badges on a patch" thing. I can see that turning into a hot mess; no two people will have them the same way. I remember the changes concerning the old ASNP worn on BDUs; once they started with putting the ASNP a half inch up from the pocket, it seemed like no two people had the same "half inch."

For all we know, the Air Force may actually allow occupational badges to be sewn on with tapes/rank that are Velcro. When the Army ACU change allowed embroidered badges, it wasn't clear as to allowing the sewn badges with Velcro tapes/rank. I saw a few people with embroidered badges but Velcro tapes/rank, and it didn't look too bad. I thought it was odd to sew on just badges, but appearance wise it was OK.

I think the Army has the most practical idea; if you sew on badges, sew on tapes and rank. Airmen have pretty much always sewn on their badges, all the way back to the old green fatigues. There will probably be a clarification published in the next few months. It would probably still be a bit cheaper, considering the sleeve pocket patches will be Velcro.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 08:43:45 AM
"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


 >:D


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


 >:D

People have their opinions on things, and if they don't get it the way they'd like, they do have the right to ask questions, even if they don't like the answer. An answer you don't like is still an answer, and unless the answer doesn't make sense, many people will let it go.

I think a lot of CAP personnel would like some input on many things in CAP. Part of personal investment in the organization, which results in pride in the organization because they helped shape it. The Air Force takes input on it's own uniforms,  and many airmen have submitted ideas that got approved. It's nothing unprecedented when it comes to CAP.

When it comes to CAP, the primary exposure that results in the public at large learning of CAP is their seeing the uniform. It gets teens and young people interested. Members want the uniform to look good, so they suggest their ideas.

There are always different ideas, so sometimes the discussion results in compromises or even changes in viewpoints. The end result is people taking pride in possibly having shaped their organization, even if their idea isn't adopted.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 15, 2018, 11:23:55 AM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military’s uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Discussing it publicly is not an issue. There's no operational secrets being discussed, no FOUO type of concerns.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 
Good point, and valid idea. In order to present a well thought out proposal, people will probably get together to discuss it, find common ideas, make suggestions or compromise. And they'll discuss it on places like CAP Talk.

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.
Maybe so, but people still have the right to discuss it when they wish.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."
I don't believe I told you anything of that sort. If I did, show me. I'll own up to it, and I will admit I was wrong, and apologize for it.

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.
Now, I know I didn't say that, or even think it. I may disagree with you on something, but I do not believe that you don't have the right to air your opinion.

However, I'll continue to discuss with other members on this board as long as the thread is active. If it bothers you, that's not my or anyone else's problem. Don't know what to tell you there.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 15, 2018, 12:15:42 PM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military’s uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.

My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 15, 2018, 01:50:31 PM
16 pages on a uniform CAP won't see for a very long time.
Yep. I have no doubt in my mind that CAP is at least 8 years, at a minimum, from being authorized the OCP. But in that 16 pages was some good knowledge sharing for those who have interest in the military’s uniforms, and perhaps one or two of the people here today may very well be on the NUC in 8+ years when CAP-USAF drops the tasker on how to create a distinctive OCP.

My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.
That's probably pretty likely. But, it might make them stick around after going senior.  :)

Retention is just as important as recruiting.

Hopefully, by the time they're authorized, I'll have a few left in the closet that I can dust off and throw on.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on September 15, 2018, 01:55:18 PM
OK, folks (no names, this time), let's keep it civil.

If you disagree, that's fine. But don't try to change everyone else's mind; just read and move on. Or just move on.

If you are on your phone reading this stuff, it's two clicks to mark the thread read. On my computer, it's about the same.

"Lighten up, Francis!"
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 15, 2018, 01:55:43 PM
My over / under would be that no cadet today will ever wear OCP as a cadet.
I agree and I’ll take the over.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Gunsotsu on September 15, 2018, 02:20:12 PM

That's probably pretty likely. But, it might make them stick around after going senior.  :)

Retention is just as important as recruiting.

This tired trope again? The "senior members are here so they can cosplay" argument. Any senior member who bases their involvement on what fancy frock they get to wear is a detriment to this organization.
 
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 02:24:26 PM
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ! ! !

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: PHall on September 15, 2018, 02:54:39 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.


No, you DO NOT write the NUC directly. There is a procedure in the 39-1 to make uniform change suggestions.
You wanna suggest a change? Put it in writing and follow the procedure.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Spam on September 15, 2018, 03:28:09 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.


No, you DO NOT write the NUC directly. There is a procedure in the 39-1 to make uniform change suggestions.
You wanna suggest a change? Put it in writing and follow the procedure.

Just a short comment. The process does work. Based on conversations here on CAP Talk I submitted some cold weather uniform item recommendations for ABUs and they were approved in an update IMC. The NUC was receptive.

You just got to slide into that DM correctly...

 :o


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 15, 2018, 03:54:44 PM
I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because…"

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."


Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: SarDragon on September 15, 2018, 05:45:58 PM
I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because…"

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."

Have you ever checked out the Sea Cadet uniforms? They look amazingly like the stuff I wore on active duty 30 years ago. The differences - patches and rank insignia. Gee, that sounds pretty much like what we have here in CAP.


I think you should give this a rest for a few hours, and get closer to the "two ears, one mouth" method.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 15, 2018, 06:08:03 PM
"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


 >:D

People have their opinions on things, and if they don't get it the way they'd like, they do have the right to ask questions, even if they don't like the answer. An answer you don't like is still an answer, and unless the answer doesn't make sense, many people will let it go.

I think a lot of CAP personnel would like some input on many things in CAP. Part of personal investment in the organization, which results in pride in the organization because they helped shape it. The Air Force takes input on it's own uniforms,  and many airmen have submitted ideas that got approved. It's nothing unprecedented when it comes to CAP.

When it comes to CAP, the primary exposure that results in the public at large learning of CAP is their seeing the uniform. It gets teens and young people interested. Members want the uniform to look good, so they suggest their ideas.

There are always different ideas, so sometimes the discussion results in compromises or even changes in viewpoints. The end result is people taking pride in possibly having shaped their organization, even if their idea isn't adopted.

I concur with these thoughts. I know it seems like we talk about it a lot on this forum... but this is the Uniform & Awards section of CAPTALK after all...

I've been taking everyone constructive input and developing a plan of action and a policy request letter which I'll send up the chain... Now that may result in nothing, it may result in change but I'd like to think that those in higher positions are capable of looking at ideas and evaluating whether they are good for implementation or not.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 15, 2018, 06:12:17 PM
There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.

Well, as I said, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I made this to talk about ideas and explore others. To get feedback from someone other than just those close to me that think like me. Obviously there are many on this forum that have widely varied views from me on this topic and I think that's GREAT. I need that. It levels things out and keeps me grounded about ideas. There have been a lot of things brought up which since they were talked about here, I can address them in my memo to the NUC.

So I agree, if you want changes made, write the NUC through your chain. If you are a cadet, you know what's a great way to get changes made? CAC. That's what I did years ago as a member of MS Wing CAC and we made some great policy changes for cadets, and only 1 or 2 of them were uniform related.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 17, 2018, 10:41:20 AM
I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because…"

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."

Yup.

If the uniforms are the same because the Air Force said "We would like our Auxiliary to be in the same/similar uniform," no issue at all.

I revert right back to my previous statement: The CAP ABU is a CAP uniform, not an Air Force uniform. Yes, the Air Force dictates certain protocols, and they sign the paperwork authorizing the wear of their uniform but in distinction. But it's a CAP uniform. It has CAP labels, CAP insignia, and CAP badges. No where on the uniform does it say anything about Air Force (I yield to the 'U.S. Air Force Auxiliary' on the Blues nameplate.

We should be treating these uniforms as CAP uniforms but with the same self-respect and appearance standards as the Air Force uniform, with the full understanding that it is not the Air Force's uniform. We are not in the Air Force (when serving in CAP, that is). The idea that "the Air Force wears it, so we should" is totally moot when it comes to this discussion. And I don't know why it keeps getting recycled.

If I have to hear one more person in a classroom say "When we wear this uniform, we represent the United States Air Force." No, we don't.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: shuman14 on September 17, 2018, 12:27:16 PM
Quote
Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."

Well color me embarrassed, I've never seen that done. Everything is either sewn on or Velcro and pinned on. I've never seen it mixed like that.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Nick on September 17, 2018, 10:12:25 PM
I revert right back to my previous statement: The CAP ABU is a CAP uniform, not an Air Force uniform. Yes, the Air Force dictates certain protocols, and they sign the paperwork authorizing the wear of their uniform but in distinction. But it's a CAP uniform. It has CAP labels, CAP insignia, and CAP badges. No where on the uniform does it say anything about Air Force (I yield to the 'U.S. Air Force Auxiliary' on the Blues nameplate.

We should be treating these uniforms as CAP uniforms but with the same self-respect and appearance standards as the Air Force uniform, with the full understanding that it is not the Air Force's uniform. We are not in the Air Force (when serving in CAP, that is). The idea that "the Air Force wears it, so we should" is totally moot when it comes to this discussion. And I don't know why it keeps getting recycled.

If I have to hear one more person in a classroom say "When we wear this uniform, we represent the United States Air Force." No, we don't.
It's a fine thesis, but I believe it's flawed.

AFI 10-2701: "Although Civil Air Patrol is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized" ... "The CAP-USAF Commander... Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring distinction from Air Force uniforms and identification cards".  So the Air Force is concerned enough to approve all standards of Civil Air Patrol that may reflect upon the Air Force.

CAPM 39-1: "CAP’s USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions. Differences from USAF standards will be only those differences required to meet unique CAP requirements and allowed by USAF-approved exceptions. CAP honors our special relationship with the USAF through closely adhering to the policies set for the USAF’s uniform." ... "The Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF, prescribes the wear of the USAF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms."

The two organizations seem pretty well aligned that it's an Air Force-style uniform.  And when John Q. Citizen sees a light blue shirt/dark blue pant military looking uniform, he doesn't say "oh look, there's the Civil Air Patrol."  It's either "oh look, there's an Air Force (or Coast Guard) person."  Same with, for the time being, the ABU.

So until CAP has a wholly distinct uniform that does not strike a resemblance to any branch of the military, it is going to be associated with that branch in the eyes of the public.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Hawk200 on September 18, 2018, 05:36:58 AM
Quote
Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."

Well color me embarrassed, I've never seen that done. Everything is either sewn on or Velcro and pinned on. I've never seen it mixed like that.

Even though it's done, it's not common. I've seen it maybe a dozen times in the last ten years. It looks decent.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 18, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
And when John Q. Citizen sees a light blue shirt/dark blue pant military looking uniform, he doesn't say "oh look, there's the Civil Air Patrol."  It's either "oh look, there's an Air Force (or Coast Guard) person."  Same with, for the time being, the ABU.

So until CAP has a wholly distinct uniform that does not strike a resemblance to any branch of the military, it is going to be associated with that branch in the eyes of the public.

John Q. Citizen doesn't generally know the difference. We're "Army people" to them, some form of military.

There are three sides to this: What is regulated through intent by the organization, how members see themselves, and what the public's perception is. We can't really control what the public thinks. And we can regulate wear standards, even conduct. Where it seems the difficulty rests is in the control of the character of our members at times when wearing the uniform.

Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Obviously, there are some individuals in previous comments that feel some persons serve as "posers," and others (regardless of why they are out of compliance), cause an issue for the entire organization.

So what's the root cause, and what's the corrective action?
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 18, 2018, 10:29:17 AM
Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Ego and poor leadership.

The ego is in either the vanity of needing the affectation, lack of self-awareness about
appearance, or simply believing the "rules don't apply to me because...'reasons".

I would also hazard that in many cases it's because the respective member isn't getting
much satisfaction out of their service, per se, so he reaches for the affinity as "something to
make the time and money I'm spending here worthwhile..."

The poor leadership comes in with:

Lack of enforcement with ramifications.

Lack of focus on mission and purpose, resulting in #2 above.

Leaving cadets out of the equation, as affinity is literally a mission of the CP, if
only peripheral or tangential, and adolescents have diverse motivations for
behavior, in the case of the majority of the adults I know, the more involved
and satisfied with the ROI of membership, the less they care about the uniform
beyond wanting it to be uniform, for the sake of the broader mission,
and wearing whatever they wear properly.

That's not universal, but it's certainly been prevalent.

I'm not immune to wanting to look sharp and be recognized, but it's in regards to
my peers and equality of the effort, not an attempt to be something I'm not.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 19, 2018, 09:32:09 AM
^ Love this.
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: DocJekyll on September 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Ego and poor leadership.

The ego is in either the vanity of needing the affectation, lack of self-awareness about
appearance, or simply believing the "rules don't apply to me because...'reasons".

I would also hazard that in many cases it's because the respective member isn't getting
much satisfaction out of their service, per se, so he reaches for the affinity as "something to
make the time and money I'm spending here worthwhile..."

The poor leadership comes in with:

Lack of enforcement with ramifications.

Lack of focus on mission and purpose, resulting in #2 above.

Leaving cadets out of the equation, as affinity is literally a mission of the CP, if
only peripheral or tangential, and adolescents have diverse motivations for
behavior, in the case of the majority of the adults I know, the more involved
and satisfied with the ROI of membership, the less they care about the uniform
beyond wanting it to be uniform, for the sake of the broader mission,
and wearing whatever they wear properly.

That's not universal, but it's certainly been prevalent.

I'm not immune to wanting to look sharp and be recognized, but it's in regards to
my peers and equality of the effort, not an attempt to be something I'm not.

So for the TL;DR, it's basically that it's not the uniform per se, it's the other systemic issues in CAP that results in people going nuts about tiny things when they lose focus on what's actually important.  :P

That said, it's up to the leaders of the perspective units to make sure that their members are both following guidelines / regulations, but also that they are being utilized effectively and are feeling accomplished in the mission (whatever mission set they are participating in whether it be ES, CP, or AE).
Title: Re: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 02:51:57 PM
So for the TL;DR, it's basically that it's not the uniform per se, it's the other systemic issues in CAP that results in people going nuts about tiny things when they lose focus on what's actually important.  :P

That said, it's up to the leaders of the perspective units to make sure that their members are both following guidelines / regulations, but also that they are being utilized effectively and are feeling accomplished in the mission (whatever mission set they are participating in whether it be ES, CP, or AE).

Yes to both.

And it's up to their leaders, and their leaders-leaders, to both enforce things with ramifications, and model the behavior they desire.