CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: JK657 on February 17, 2018, 12:40:22 PM

Title: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: JK657 on February 17, 2018, 12:40:22 PM
Yesterday during a question and answer session at Minot AFB, CMSAF Wright talked about the possible transition to OCP. He makes several points on why he and others feel it should happen and says a final decision and announcement should come out in the next week or two.

He implied a 4 year transition with an increase in uniform allowance to make up for the cost difference. You see him discuss it the video on his facebook page at about the 14:03 mark.

Tie in to Cap: After years and years of longing for the ABU and then finally getting it, it looks quite possible that it will no longer be the field uniform for the USAF.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: NIN on February 17, 2018, 12:45:19 PM
Yesterday during a question and answer session at Minot AFB, CMSAF Wright talked about the possible transition to OCP. He makes several points on why he and others feel it should happen and says a final decision and announcement should come out in the next week or two.

He implied a 4 year transition with an increase in uniform allowance to make up for the cost difference. You see him discuss it the video on his facebook page at about the 14:03 mark.

Tie in to Cap: After years and years of longing for the ABU and then finally getting it, it looks quite possible that it will no longer be the field uniform for the USAF.

Just think: there should be a huge influx of ABUs available to CAP at that point. :)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 17, 2018, 12:46:19 PM
The AF has already been working this and moving towards phasing out the ABU.  IIRC from my source then it may already be in the works.  Thankfully I will retire long before this occurs. 

The tie in to CAP...  More ABUs for members and even though the AF may not consider it a field uniform it will still be considered AF style by the org so the rules will continue to apply. 
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: CAPLTC on February 17, 2018, 01:24:02 PM
Yesterday during a question and answer session at Minot AFB, CMSAF Wright talked about the possible transition to OCP. He makes several points on why he and others feel it should happen and says a final decision and announcement should come out in the next week or two.

Tie in to Cap: After years and years of longing for the ABU and then finally getting it, it looks quite possible that it will no longer be the field uniform for the USAF.

Yummy.
I feel like this forum needs a whole separate sub-forum on this matter. :)
So in 10 years we'll transition to OCP just as the USAF is moving to whatever new cool thing the Army has adopted.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: JK657 on February 17, 2018, 04:11:57 PM
I'm going to guess that within 24 hours of the announcement the AF is going to OCP we get a 20 page thread on when CAP is going to transition
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: coudano on February 17, 2018, 04:45:45 PM
Should have just kept woodland and made it "ours".  Annnnd.  Done.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: foo on February 17, 2018, 09:53:37 PM
Should have just kept woodland and made it "ours".  Annnnd.  Done.

That would make it a Corporate UniformTM, which we already have. Personally, I think eliminating camouflage uniforms altogether (at least for senior members) would be a great way to go.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: CAPLTC on February 18, 2018, 10:32:14 AM
eliminating camouflage uniforms altogether (at least for senior members) would be a great way to go.

Yesssssss!
Preach it!
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: darkmatter on February 18, 2018, 02:09:36 PM
so long as that means we get to wear a proper looking uniform and no more mismatch BDU ABU uniform ill support any USAF new uniform. HATE the black BDU boots with the ABU im not trying to wear a Halloween costume
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 18, 2018, 03:13:02 PM
so long as that means we get to wear a proper looking uniform and no more mismatch BDU ABU uniform ill support any USAF new uniform. HATE the black BDU boots with the ABU im not trying to wear a Halloween costume

There is a requirement for distinction between the USAF and CAP.  The black boots with the ABU and the Navy tapes are part of that.  Even if CAP got to wear OCPs there would be a significant distinction between CAP and the AF. 
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: darkmatter on February 18, 2018, 03:41:34 PM
so long as that means we get to wear a proper looking uniform and no more mismatch BDU ABU uniform ill support any USAF new uniform. HATE the black BDU boots with the ABU im not trying to wear a Halloween costume

There is a requirement for distinction between the USAF and CAP.  The black boots with the ABU and the Navy tapes are part of that.  Even if CAP got to wear OCPs there would be a significant distinction between CAP and the AF.

Im talking from the point of the USAF wear OCP's and CAP getting to wear the proper ABU's not to be rude but I think I did say that in my original post
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 18, 2018, 04:57:22 PM
so long as that means we get to wear a proper looking uniform and no more mismatch BDU ABU uniform ill support any USAF new uniform. HATE the black BDU boots with the ABU im not trying to wear a Halloween costume

There is a requirement for distinction between the USAF and CAP.  The black boots with the ABU and the Navy tapes are part of that.  Even if CAP got to wear OCPs there would be a significant distinction between CAP and the AF.

Im talking from the point of the USAF wear OCP's and CAP getting to wear the proper ABU's not to be rude but I think I did say that in my original post

Once the AF has transitioned there will not be a change in ABUs.  It will still be considered an AF style uniform and the current standards will apply.  If you had paid attention to the post there is a requirement for distinction between CAP and the AF.  If you're so concerned with playing dress up just wear the corps and problem solved. 
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: darkmatter on February 18, 2018, 08:21:57 PM
thats all I wear, i dont wanna play dress up i just personal hate the way the black boot look with the ABU's
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: SAREXinNY on February 18, 2018, 08:47:23 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous. We need a standing policy that CAP uniform will mirror the current predominant USAF field uniform with the obvious CAP distinctive changes. When they phase in/out a uniform, so do we. Simple.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 18, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous. We need a standing policy that CAP uniform will mirror the current predominant USAF field uniform with the obvious CAP distinctive changes. When they phase in/out a uniform, so do we. Simple.

Simple in theory yes.  Execution who knows.  Let's hope theres no memo from SECDEF like there was for  ABUs and NHQ needs to start a package now.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: CAP9907 on February 18, 2018, 08:52:11 PM
AMEN!

Should have just kept woodland and made it "ours".  Annnnd.  Done.

That would make it a Corporate UniformTM, which we already have. Personally, I think eliminating camouflage uniforms altogether (at least for senior members) would be a great way to go.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: Ozzy on February 18, 2018, 09:12:22 PM
Already have the prototype!

Now if I could just get my photo to show up...

(https://photos.app.goo.gl/LrugEHqJSjwsdpjY2)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: TheSkyHornet on February 19, 2018, 11:51:47 AM
ROTC units, CAP, and other military-based programs have typically been late in transitioning uniforms, wearing the "older" and "outdated" field uniforms.

There is an enormous cost associated with transitioning that military budgets can eat. That's not the case with us.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: Geber on February 19, 2018, 12:58:48 PM
Points in favor of a standing policy for CAP to rapidly adopt any new USAF work uniform:

*Those who live close to bases that let us in can try on uniforms, feel the fabric, etc, instead of ordering on the web and hoping for the best (as with Vanguard).

*The military uniforms will be made in much greater quantities than corporate uniforms, so there ought to be economies of scale.

*Military uniforms are available from several non-military sources, corporate uniforms only available from Vanguard. Competition usually leads to better prices.

The main disadvantage I see is you can't write a policy now that will be good for quite a few years, because you can't describe the distinctions between the USAF version and the CAP version until the USAF version exists.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: OldGuy on February 19, 2018, 01:03:56 PM
https://tacticalgear.com/bdus

https://www.propper.com/

Two non Vanguard sources for BBDUs.....
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 19, 2018, 01:12:02 PM

The main disadvantage I see is you can't wright a policy now that will be good for quite a few years, because you can't describe the distinctions between the USAF version and the CAP version until the USAF version exists.

Yes you you can.  Because an AF version exists already in a limited capacity.  We went through this with the ABU the big issue there was getting approval from DoD.  By being proactive about it and figuring out the distinctiveness ahead of time would put us ahead of the game.   
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: GroundHawg on February 19, 2018, 03:35:13 PM
I know what is written, but can anyone truly give a good reason why cadets cant wear the BBDU?

I one day dream of an entire squadron dressed the same.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: jeders on February 19, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
I know what is written, but can anyone truly give a good reason why cadets cant wear the BBDU?

I one day dream of an entire squadron dressed the same.

Why would they want to?
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: Jester on February 19, 2018, 04:31:04 PM
The more I think about it, I'd be ok with moving everyone to BBDU but they don't seem to be anywhere near as available as BDU/ABUs. 

This isn't 1994, and nobody wears the old 4-pocket BDU tops or 6-pocket BDU pants anymore, much less in dark blue.  I went to a couple of police supply shops in a big city nearby and there wasn't anything in any color in that design.  Everything has 80 pockets and is super-operator with a special garrote pouch on it nowadays. 

I think being able to wear military awards/badges/ribbons on corporate uniforms is a good idea too, so YMMV.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 19, 2018, 04:40:23 PM
I think being able to wear military awards/badges/ribbons on corporate uniforms is a good idea too, so YMMV.

Until the services change their policy not likely.  Personally while it's a nice addition to the AF style we should really do without them.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: SarDragon on February 20, 2018, 02:56:01 AM
Should have just kept woodland and made it "ours".  Annnnd.  Done.

Ummm... not so quick there. Since the supply of new BDUs seems to have dried up, that would entail new production. I think we have a huge economy of scale issue here.

The current AF manning is about 490,000. We'll use 400,000 to account for folks who don't wear BDUs as a normal working uniform. The minimum required uniform quantities, from AFI36-3014, and expected life: Cap, Utility ABU, 2, 1ea/annually; Coat, Men's ABU, 4, 1ea/2 years; Trousers, Men's ABU, 4, 1pair/2years.

The anticipated wear frequency is about 208 days/yr. Replacement at the same rate that the replacement allowance is paid gives us: cap, 1/yr x 400k; coat, 2/yr x 800k; trousers, 2/yr x 800k. Given that uniforms frequently do not last through their wear cycle, and many people need more than the issue allowance, the procurement rate is probably higher than the stated figures. Let's round that up to 2 million/yr each for the coats and trousers (one set). A reasonable guess is that the Air Force acquired two million ABU uniform sets every year.

Let's compare that to some CAP numbers. Estimate an end strength of 35,000 members wearing ABUS an average of six days a month, or, rounding up, 40 days a year. That's an equivalent life of 5.2 years. At the rate of two sets every 5.2 years, it averages out to about 0.4 sets/yr. Multiply that times 35,000, and the annual procurement is about 14,000 sets/yr. That's a drop in the bucket production-wise and does not take into account sizing, which reduces individual production runs even further. Nobody would be willing to manufacture that few items for the same cost they sold them to the government, or even at all.

These numbers are mostly all reasonable SWAGs; good guesses to illustrate a point. If you have better numbers, or can point out reasonable considerations I might not have made, I'd like to hear them.

Oh, yeah, here's an olde thread discussing ABUs, from 2011: the whole thread (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.0), and some specific 2013 commentary on economy of scale thing regarding introducing a new, non-AF uniform combination (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329321#msg329321), a response (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329327#msg329327), and my reply to that (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329328#msg329328).
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: UWONGO2 on February 20, 2018, 01:21:24 PM
I know what is written, but can anyone truly give a good reason why cadets cant wear the BBDU?

I one day dream of an entire squadron dressed the same.

Why would they want to?

Around here the Blue BDU is the official uniform of our ground team. Granted, there aren't many cadets on the ground team, but until the change they were expected to be in blue BDUs like everyone else.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: Ned on February 20, 2018, 02:07:10 PM
I know what is written, but can anyone truly give a good reason why cadets cant wear the BBDU?

For over 75 years, our cadets have been required to wear AF-style uniforms whenever possible.  It is a critical tool for use in our successful cadet program. 

(Yes, the first couple of years were in Army uniforms, and occasionally there is a delay as we transition to new uniforms as the AF does.  And the AF restricts all members from AF-style uniforms, and that includes the relatively small number of cadets over 18 who do not meet H/W standards.)

Quote
I one day dream of an entire squadron dressed the same.

In some situations, that might indeed be nice.  But remember, the AF has almost exactly the same number of uniform variations as we do.  It is actually rare for everyone in an AF squadron to be in the same uniform combination on any given day.  So we are in good company.

And ultimately, the reason that we have multiple uniforms is the same reason our AF colleagues have multiple uniforms -- we need the variations to perform our assigned missions under the current law and AFI situation.

But we can all dream.   8)

And the One Incontrovertible Truth is that -- at some point -- the AF will change their uniforms.  As they have many times over the years.  There will be a uniform after ABUs, whether that is OCP or something else.  And, there will be a new uniform after that.  And another after that.  No one, including anyone in the AF, knows when the next transition will be, and what the uniform will look like.  It could be  next year, or 10 years from now.

In the meantime, we will continue to perform our duties.  As we always have.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: PHall on February 20, 2018, 10:07:47 PM
Heck, I wonder why the Air Force wears camouflage uniforms in the first place. They're not needed by the vast majority of AF members.
Yes the camo uniforms are needed if you get deployed to a "war zone", but you'll get those when you go through the Deployment processing line anyway.
The Blue BDU's would work just fine. >:D
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: etodd on February 20, 2018, 10:56:12 PM

I one day dream of an entire squadron dressed the same.


YES!  Polos for everyone!   >:D

(Sorry, but I just couldn't resist that opening. LOL)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: foo on February 21, 2018, 08:59:37 AM
Heck, I wonder why the Air Force wears camouflage uniforms in the first place. They're not needed by the vast majority of AF members.
Yes the camo uniforms are needed if you get deployed to a "war zone", but you'll get those when you go through the Deployment processing line anyway.
The Blue BDU's would work just fine. >:D

FTFY   :)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: TheSkyHornet on February 21, 2018, 10:33:57 AM
I have predominately found that those who want to wear the corporate uniform full-time either can't meet the fitness standards or refuse to get a haircut. I have found that those who want everyone to wear the Air Force-style want to "play military" and get attention.

Put the uniform on. Shut up. And just do your jobs. If there is a standard to meet for a certain uniform, meet that standard. If you don't, wear the alternative uniform.

I fully agree that cadets should be in a common, military-style uniform to reinforce uniformity and discipline as part of their training curriculum. It's a training tool, nothing more. If we want to redesign our own uniform, whatever; go for it. Until then, this is what we use.

How many times does has this conversation happened in the last few decades? And the result...?
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: PHall on February 21, 2018, 10:20:56 PM
I have predominately found that those who want to wear the corporate uniform full-time either can't meet the fitness standards or refuse to get a haircut. I have found that those who want everyone to wear the Air Force-style want to "play military" and get attention.

Put the uniform on. Shut up. And just do your jobs. If there is a standard to meet for a certain uniform, meet that standard. If you don't, wear the alternative uniform.

I fully agree that cadets should be in a common, military-style uniform to reinforce uniformity and discipline as part of their training curriculum. It's a training tool, nothing more. If we want to redesign our own uniform, whatever; go for it. Until then, this is what we use.

How many times does has this conversation happened in the last few decades? And the result...?


So I do wear both the ABU (legally) and the Blue BDU, what does that make me?
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: SarDragon on February 21, 2018, 10:39:46 PM
So I do wear both the ABU (legally) and the Blue BDU, what does that make me?

A mixed up goofball?  ;) 8)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 21, 2018, 10:49:19 PM
Yes the camo uniforms are needed if you get deployed to a "war zone", but you'll get those when you go through the Deployment processing line anyway.

Uniforms aren't really issued on a deployment line anymore.  If you need them they are purchased at the Supply Store.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: PHall on February 22, 2018, 12:04:07 AM
Yes the camo uniforms are needed if you get deployed to a "war zone", but you'll get those when you go through the Deployment processing line anyway.

Uniforms aren't really issued on a deployment line anymore.  If you need them they are purchased at the Supply Store.

They're still in your D Bag, right?
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: PHall on February 22, 2018, 12:04:54 AM
So I do wear both the ABU (legally) and the Blue BDU, what does that make me?

A mixed up goofball?  ;) 8)

You're one to talk Squid Boy. ;-)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: Fester on February 22, 2018, 12:13:06 AM
Heck, since we are a SAR organization, I think we should all just wear the uniform of the Thai Royal Guard!  Or the South Korean Honor Guard uniform.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: PHall on February 22, 2018, 01:34:51 AM
Heck, since we are a SAR organization, I think we should all just wear the uniform of the Thai Royal Guard!  Or the South Korean Honor Guard uniform.

Not everybody in CAP participates in ES..... ::)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 22, 2018, 10:13:22 AM
Yes the camo uniforms are needed if you get deployed to a "war zone", but you'll get those when you go through the Deployment processing line anyway.

Uniforms aren't really issued on a deployment line anymore.  If you need them they are purchased at the Supply Store.

They're still in your D Bag, right?

D-bag is aircrew specific.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: SARDOC on February 22, 2018, 12:30:44 PM
Should have just kept woodland and made it "ours".  Annnnd.  Done.

That would make it a Corporate UniformTM, which we already have. Personally, I think eliminating camouflage uniforms altogether (at least for senior members) would be a great way to go.

Agreed, I like the BBDU's especially now with the darker nametapes.  It seems to represent more of what we actually do.  I've seen FEMA USAR teams, SAR Organizations, Disaster Medical Assistance Teams.  Teams from Metropolitan Medical Response system teams all wearing a Blue BDU variant of one form or another.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: CAPLTC on February 22, 2018, 08:01:23 PM
Uniforms aren't really issued on a deployment line anymore.  If you need them they are purchased at the Supply Store.

Yes they are.
I always end up with different kit when I deploy.
When was the last time you deployed to a warzone?  ;)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 22, 2018, 08:32:31 PM
Uniforms aren't really issued on a deployment line anymore.  If you need them they are purchased at the Supply Store.

Yes they are.
I always end up with different kit when I deploy.
When was the last time you deployed to a warzone?  ;)

Are you USAF?  Uniforms for deployments are not issued.  They are purchased and not taken back if there is a different type required than the normal uniform. 
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: CAPLTC on February 22, 2018, 09:01:27 PM
Are you USAF?  Uniforms for deployments are not issued.  They are purchased and not taken back if there is a different type required than the normal uniform.

Army here.
The USAF bubbas I work with always get issued theater-specific uniforms.
The folks heading to the CENTCOM AOR sure as heck aren't purchasing $3000 worth of OCP to head downrange.
What are you talking about?

More importantly: When do I get to wear my OCP/Multicam to CAP meetings?
Pretty sure Ned said real soon in some prior reply. :)
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 22, 2018, 09:08:11 PM
Are you USAF?  Uniforms for deployments are not issued.  They are purchased and not taken back if there is a different type required than the normal uniform.

Army here.
The USAF bubbas I work with always get issued theater-specific uniforms.
The folks heading to the CENTCOM AOR sure as heck aren't purchasing $3000 worth of OCP to head downrange.
What are you talking about?

More importantly: When do I get to wear my OCP/Multicam to CAP meetings?
Pretty sure Ned said real soon in some prior reply. :)

The AF bubbas unit makes the purchase for them.  Issued implies an expectation of being returned.  I am very familiar with the AF deployment process.  So please try again...
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: kwe1009 on February 22, 2018, 10:09:53 PM
Are you USAF?  Uniforms for deployments are not issued.  They are purchased and not taken back if there is a different type required than the normal uniform.

Army here.
The USAF bubbas I work with always get issued theater-specific uniforms.
The folks heading to the CENTCOM AOR sure as heck aren't purchasing $3000 worth of OCP to head downrange.
What are you talking about?

More importantly: When do I get to wear my OCP/Multicam to CAP meetings?
Pretty sure Ned said real soon in some prior reply. :)

The AF bubbas unit makes the purchase for them.  Issued implies an expectation of being returned.  I am very familiar with the AF deployment process.  So please try again...

I am Air Force and have deployed many times and have never had to purchase theater specific uniforms.  Since when did the AF make people pay for all of that gear?  MCSS where I am doesn't even sell the theater specific uniforms or related items.
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: abdsp51 on February 22, 2018, 10:29:04 PM
Are you USAF?  Uniforms for deployments are not issued.  They are purchased and not taken back if there is a different type required than the normal uniform.

Army here.
The USAF bubbas I work with always get issued theater-specific uniforms.
The folks heading to the CENTCOM AOR sure as heck aren't purchasing $3000 worth of OCP to head downrange.
What are you talking about?

More importantly: When do I get to wear my OCP/Multicam to CAP meetings?
Pretty sure Ned said real soon in some prior reply. :)

The AF bubbas unit makes the purchase for them.  Issued implies an expectation of being returned.  I am very familiar with the AF deployment process.  So please try again...

I am Air Force and have deployed many times and have never had to purchase theater specific uniforms.  Since when did the AF make people pay for all of that gear?  MCSS where I am doesn't even sell the theater specific uniforms or related items.

Your clothing items were/are purchased by your unit.  The gear helmet, cover IOTV are provided from IPE. 
Title: Re: USAF transition to OCP
Post by: SarDragon on February 22, 2018, 10:54:31 PM
And the contest is once again ended without prejudice.

Click.