CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: jfkspotting on September 19, 2017, 07:30:30 PM

Title: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: jfkspotting on September 19, 2017, 07:30:30 PM
We currently  have a C172P that looks incredibly faded when compared to our 206 and 182.

Does cap repaint the fleet on a regular basis? Have the handful of ex-iraqi cessnas been repainted from gray yet?
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: Live2Learn on September 19, 2017, 08:48:41 PM
We currently  have a C172P that looks incredibly faded when compared to our 206 and 182.

Does cap repaint the fleet on a regular basis? Have the handful of ex-iraqi cessnas been repainted from gray yet?

Good question.  If your aircraft IS repainted be sure it is reweighed before it is returned to service.  Six or seven ago the C182 assigned to my then squadron was repainted and looked GREAT!  Unfortunately when it was reweighed 3 or four years later the squadron learned the calculated W&B (which was unchanged because the plane was "stripped...") was way off.  A new maintenance depot insisted on putting it on the calibrated scales.  The plane's true weight came in 110 lbs over it's pre-paint job weight.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: jeders on September 19, 2017, 08:58:30 PM
Does cap repaint the fleet on a regular basis?

No, in fact there are still quite a few planes floating around that don't even have the current CAP paint scheme, despite how long it has been.

Have the handful of ex-iraqi cessnas been repainted from gray yet?

Afghani actually, and no; or at least the El Paso one is still grey sans all CAP exterior markings. Personally, I think it would look kind of cool with the CAP seal and roundel in subdued grey.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: arajca on September 19, 2017, 09:06:26 PM
CAP repaints aircraft as needed, not merely to match the current paint scheme. Repainting aircraft is not cheap, so repainting the entire fleet just to have a uniform appearance is not in the budget.

FTFY.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: PHall on September 19, 2017, 09:38:25 PM
Aircraft are painted to prevent corrosion. A side benefit is that it makes them look "better". But corrosion control is the primary reason.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: FW on September 19, 2017, 10:56:15 PM
The oldest "new" aircraft in the fleet are now 20 years old.  Unless there was major damage, I think none have been repainted yet.  That said, until recently, aircraft were repainted when the went thru the "refurb" process. I understand this program is no longer in effect.  Routine repainting may no longer be authorized....
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: etodd on September 19, 2017, 10:56:55 PM
Leading me to ask .... how many CAP aircraft have to sit outside?
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: stillamarine on September 19, 2017, 11:00:40 PM
I'm sure quite a few. I know Bessemer's was always outside and I believe still is. Shelby County's used to be but I think its in a covered spot now. I know a couple in FLWG were as well.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: etodd on September 19, 2017, 11:36:46 PM
I'm sure quite a few. I know Bessemer's was always outside and I believe still is. Shelby County's used to be but I think its in a covered spot now. I know a couple in FLWG were as well.

Is it a requirement that all new G1000 planes must be hangared? I heard someone say that but not sure if its official. Should be, if you ask me.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: SarDragon on September 20, 2017, 12:28:32 AM
Is it a requirement that all new G1000 planes must be hangared? I heard someone say that but not sure if its official. Should be, if you ask me.

I know of no such CAP-wide requirement. Much of CAWG's fleet is unhangared, and quite a few of those are G1000s.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: FW on September 20, 2017, 10:40:24 AM
There is no requirement to hanger any of our fleet from NHQ. 
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2017, 02:48:03 PM
CAPR 66-1 says aircraft should be hangared. It is not required, as mentioned previously.

Your Wing can mandate it, though, for the entire Wing or an individual unit depending on the location of that aircraft if conditions or environment might be too harsh at that location which can contribute to damage.

Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: PHall on September 20, 2017, 08:30:29 PM
CAPR 66-1 says aircraft should be hangared. It is not required, as mentioned previously.

Your Wing can mandate it, though, for the entire Wing or an individual unit depending on the location of that aircraft if conditions or environment might be too harsh at that location which can contribute to damage.

Sure, your wing can mandate it, as long as they include a check to pay the hanger rent. Unfunded mandates are not cool.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: Fubar on September 21, 2017, 01:35:59 AM
Sure, your wing can mandate it, as long as they include a check to pay the hanger rent. Unfunded mandates are not cool.

I have seen it go towards aircraft assignments though. You don't have a hangar? Here's the old rust bucket that we'll be selling soon. Squadron X with the hangar gets the shiney G1000 plane for now.

So it's not a requirement per se, but the point gets made.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 21, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Sure, your wing can mandate it, as long as they include a check to pay the hanger rent. Unfunded mandates are not cool.

I have seen it go towards aircraft assignments though. You don't have a hangar? Here's the old rust bucket that we'll be selling soon. Squadron X with the hangar gets the shiney G1000 plane for now.

So it's not a requirement per se, but the point gets made.

Right. The old loophole.

"Oh, you want a shiny new penny? Well all I have here is this crusty old one."

But can you blame them? Sure, there is a point of mission effectiveness. But mission effectiveness comes with the cost of resources, to include logistical needs (i.e., maintenance). If that cost is going to start outweighing the benefit of a new bird, why have a new one being treated in a way that's going to contribute to that?


Not to digress from the lad's OP

Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: A.Member on September 21, 2017, 09:41:03 AM
CAPR 66-1 says aircraft should be hangared. It is not required, as mentioned previously.

Your Wing can mandate it, though, for the entire Wing or an individual unit depending on the location of that aircraft if conditions or environment might be too harsh at that location which can contribute to damage.

Sure, your wing can mandate it, as long as they include a check to pay the hanger rent. Unfunded mandates are not cool.
Not exactly.   The Wing may require a hangar and it does not need to pay for it.  As an example, MNWG will not assign a squadron an aircraft unless they can provide a hangar.  A number of other Wings have a similar requirement.  The individual squadrons make arrangements for hangar space.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: NIN on September 21, 2017, 02:14:28 PM
In my wing, the local FBOs are willing to put our plane in the hangar in certain circumstances (ie. "mission tomorrow morning, need the plane un-snowy") but of the 5 "flying" squadrons, only one has really a "regular hangar."   

In the example of my unit, on our airfield there is the FBO's (small) hangar, another (small) hangar, the state police hangar, and then the pretty expensive T-hangars on the other side of the field, and the National Guard Aviation Support Facility.

So unless we're willing to build a hangar or rent a T-hangar, our plane sits on the tiedowns 99% of the time.  Or, as is the case at the moment, both planes.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: etodd on September 21, 2017, 02:55:40 PM

.... the pretty expensive T-hangars on the other side of the field ....

And thats where smoozing at the local Chamber of Commerce can possibly get you a corporate sponsorship, or two.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: NIN on September 21, 2017, 03:31:46 PM

.... the pretty expensive T-hangars on the other side of the field ....

And thats where smoozing at the local Chamber of Commerce can possibly get you a corporate sponsorship, or two.

Perhaps.  Then again, we've been trying to build a Wing HQ on the field for the entire time I've been in the wing.. :)

Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: Al Sayre on September 21, 2017, 04:48:42 PM
The simple answer is talk to your Squadron/Group/Wing Aircraft Maintenance Officer.  If the aircraft needs to be painted, he/she can contact NHQ and they will get it done.  It's not an involved process, two or three phone calls and email some pictures and then your airplane disappears for a couple of months and re-appears all shiny and new looking.  Here in the south, the sun is tough on paint and we've had to have a couple of our wing aircraft repainted as the original paint was starting to degrade to the point of peeling.
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: NIN on September 21, 2017, 04:54:12 PM
<snip>
That said, until recently, aircraft were repainted when the went thru the "refurb" process. I understand this program is no longer in effect.
<snip>

The refurb program is indeed still in effect. Something like 9 aircraft are being refurb'd right now.

Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: jfkspotting on October 01, 2017, 09:46:01 PM
where do they get refurbished
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: Live2Learn on October 02, 2017, 11:12:42 AM
where do they get refurbished

Good question.  FWIW, paint shops used by CAP seem to be low bidder (if that's what we think of as "refurbish").   

Just my humble opinion, but I'd say "Ditto for maintenance depots" that just meet the minimum contractual requirements...  which may be poorly understood by UMOs and others.  Some States use an RFP approach (Request for Proposal) rather than low bid contracts for professional and maintenance services. Note the substantial difference in intent when interested parties are "proposers" rather than "bidders"!   RFQ proposals I've seen treat cost as a secondary (but still important) consideration.  The FFP quote includes proposer qualifications, history, references, and by implication, likely outcomes. Only after proposals are ranked and fact checked do cost discussions begin. I've seen several CAP maintenance providers for CAP aircraft come and go, some because they didn't think their economics worked out after dipping their toes into the CAP contract waters, others because minimum bidders just couldn't perform at the level the end users (custodial squadrons & aircrew) expect. 
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: FW on October 02, 2017, 04:24:45 PM
<snip>
That said, until recently, aircraft were repainted when the went thru the "refurb" process. I understand this program is no longer in effect.
<snip>

The refurb program is indeed still in effect. Something like 9 aircraft are being refurb'd right now.
Actually, there are 4 to 6 aircraft still in the pipeline.  These will be finished.  The remaining will be given annual inspections and returned to service as is.  CAP is considering purchase of Yingling "O timed aircraft".  These babies cost about $100k more than those CAP has refurbed, and don't include glass panel avionics... 

https://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2015/07/yingling-aviation-launches-remanufactured-cessna.html
Title: Re: How often does CAP repaint the fleet?
Post by: FW on October 02, 2017, 04:30:26 PM
where do they get refurbished

Good question.  FWIW, paint shops used by CAP seem to be low bidder (if that's what we think of as "refurbish").   

The "refurb" process includes new paint, interior, all parts brought to "as new standard", new avionics including G500 display, ADS-B compliance, and upgraded ELT.  The cost for all of this is under $150,000.  Considering new C-182s cost around $650,000; not a bad deal...I'm sorry to see it go.