CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: MisterCD on June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MisterCD on June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 26, 2014, 05:28:30 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/T3GIBqT.jpg)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: a2capt on June 26, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Good deal on the use of graphics. Gets right to the point.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 06:35:10 PM
Looks like the big winner here is Vanguard, as they can now make more low quality, overpriced items to sell
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on June 26, 2014, 06:40:19 PM
1.2.5.1. During Commercial Travel. When traveling in an official capacity on commercial air, in CONUS (to include Alaska and Hawaii)...

Last I checked, the Continental United States does not include Alaska & Hawaii
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on June 26, 2014, 06:44:06 PM
I see they wised up and dumped pictures, using clean graphics instead.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 06:46:03 PM
It looks like many of the issues I pointed out during the draft review period were corrected. I'm very satisfy with the way they included and listened to the membership during this process. It may not be perfect, but it's a huge improvement over the previous manual.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 06:47:26 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 26, 2014, 06:53:32 PM
It looks like many of the issues I pointed out during the draft review period were corrected. I'm very satisfy with the way they included and listened to the membership during this process. It may not be perfect, but it's a huge improvement over the previous manual.
Like General Patton said, I prefer a good plan violently executed NOW over a perfect plan that's too late.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 06:55:57 PM
It looks like many of the issues I pointed out during the draft review period were corrected. I'm very satisfy with the way they included and listened to the membership during this process. It may not be perfect, but it's a huge improvement over the previous manual.
Like General Patton said, I prefer a good plan violently executed NOW over a perfect plan that's too late.

Presumes facts not in evidence (i.e. that this is a good plan).  The only good I see from it is for Vanguard as previously stated.  It will get me out of any event that requires an outdoor formation though since I won't be able to wear my glasses. (photosensitive)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on June 26, 2014, 07:01:13 PM
Phil-

Do not forget Puerto Rico! Oh those poor members in PR...
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 07:10:36 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on June 26, 2014, 07:14:53 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: inactive123 on June 26, 2014, 07:17:48 PM
I guess HMRS will have everyone wear black undershirts next year for BDUs.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 07:20:05 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day. 

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 07:22:19 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: BHartman007 on June 26, 2014, 07:28:30 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

How were you going to do it before, since this was the rule even in the old 39-1? You couldn't take them off long enough to stand in a formation?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 07:30:48 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

How were you going to do it before, since this was the rule even in the old 39-1? You couldn't take them off long enough to stand in a formation?

Nobody has ever made a comment about my glasses when I was in formation, and they've been darkening since I joined.  No, I literally can't see the E without my glasses, and have them on from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I even swim with them on.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 07:35:05 PM

From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

If they're prescription, they're allowed.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on June 26, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.
The Air Force and US Gov doesn't pay for photosensitive lenses either, at least not the times I went to the med group for my eye appointment.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: BHartman007 on June 26, 2014, 07:39:25 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

How were you going to do it before, since this was the rule even in the old 39-1? You couldn't take them off long enough to stand in a formation?

Nobody has ever made a comment about my glasses when I was in formation, and they've been darkening since I joined.  No, I literally can't see the E without my glasses, and have them on from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I even swim with them on.

Well, just wear a corporate style uniform. That requirement is only listed under USAF style standards.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garp on June 26, 2014, 07:41:43 PM
it was in the old manual, so if you were in a Air Force uniform you weren't compliant before.  New manual also has it under the Air Force uniform side, so as long as you are wearing corporates you can wear sunglasses in formation.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: vento on June 26, 2014, 07:46:12 PM
So far the only contradicting info (text vs graph) that I can find is concerning the name tape and rank insignia for the BBDU and the Blue Field Jacket. The text says "Ultramarine blue" while the graphs show, well a combination of ultramarine and dark blue.  >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 26, 2014, 07:50:10 PM


I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.

Oh well.  Request an exception to policy. Otherwise....

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 07:56:11 PM
it was in the old manual, so if you were in a Air Force uniform you weren't compliant before.  New manual also has it under the Air Force uniform side, so as long as you are wearing corporates you can wear sunglasses in formation.

No I was wearing corporates then, I just made weight this month.  Guess I'll keep the aviator whites.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: CAPAPRN on June 26, 2014, 08:07:30 PM
Congrats on making weight Rob- sorry the sunglasses won't go with it. I know my glasses that cost $700 at lens crafter type store cost only 120 or so at a big box optometry place. I actually get cheapos at the VA ("these would look good on a women" as they show me yet another set of men's frames) but my husband gets cheapos at Targ.. -
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 26, 2014, 08:15:45 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

Take off your glasses for the formation.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
it was in the old manual, so if you were in a Air Force uniform you weren't compliant before.  New manual also has it under the Air Force uniform side, so as long as you are wearing corporates you can wear sunglasses in formation.

No I was wearing corporates then, I just made weight this month.  Guess I'll keep the aviator whites.

No need. You can wear your prescription photosensitive glasses in formation.

Quote from: New CAPM 39-1, para. 6.3.1.2.2
Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons... (emphasis mine)

Not being able to see without prescription glasses IS a "medical reason".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on June 26, 2014, 08:22:43 PM
A quick read of it and my impression is good.  The graphics look nice over any photos.  It seems as they corrected a few things.  I like the National Staff Badge.  Unfortunately, I did not see a phase out date for the dark navy nametapes for the BBDUs.  Will need to read in more depth later.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 26, 2014, 08:28:49 PM
∆ There is no phase out.  Blue field uniform tapes stay ultramarine.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 08:36:18 PM
∆ There is no phase out.  Blue field uniform tapes stay ultramarine.

I find that strange. Why have grade insignias with dark blue background and keep the tapes and badges ultramarine?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 26, 2014, 08:46:24 PM
∆ The diagram is incorrect. The text indicates ultramarine for grade as well.

Wow, a lot of the diagrams are wrong in that regard.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AirAux on June 26, 2014, 08:51:17 PM
Go to Zennioptical.com.  Chinese eyeglasses for $30.00.  Order a clear pair for military work.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: BHartman007 on June 26, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
it was in the old manual, so if you were in a Air Force uniform you weren't compliant before.  New manual also has it under the Air Force uniform side, so as long as you are wearing corporates you can wear sunglasses in formation.

No I was wearing corporates then, I just made weight this month.  Guess I'll keep the aviator whites.

No need. You can wear your prescription photosensitive glasses in formation.

Quote from: New CAPM 39-1, para. 6.3.1.2.2
Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons... (emphasis mine)

Not being able to see without prescription glasses IS a "medical reason".

He doesn't have a medical need for sunglasses, just glasses.  The part you didn't copy says "IE: Lasik surgery". The exception is for a medical need to reduce light to the eyes, not a way to wear dark glasses all the time.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 26, 2014, 09:09:42 PM
Go to Zennioptical.com.  Chinese eyeglasses for $30.00.  Order a clear pair for military work.

Coastal.com "First Pair Free"   

I blew $400 on a pair of really sweet Oakleys (progressive lenses, etc) as my first pair of glasses. I wore them for 2 weeks until my glasses from Coastal showed up (expecting they'd fit under my full-face skydiving helmet. They did not).

The pair from Coastal have been on my face for 18 months+.  They cost me $14 (shipping & insurance).

I also ordered a 2nd pair from EyeBuyDirect (that also did not fit under my skydiving helmet) and they were $27.

You have options.  I'm still looking for a nice pair of aviator frames so I can get lenses ground.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 26, 2014, 09:15:07 PM
1.2.5.1. During Commercial Travel. When traveling in an official capacity on commercial air, in CONUS (to include Alaska and Hawaii)...

Last I checked, the Continental United States does not include Alaska & Hawaii
I guesss that is why the add "to include Alaska and Hawaii".  :)
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 09:16:02 PM
∆ The diagram is incorrect. The text indicates ultramarine for grade as well.

Wow, a lot of the diagrams are wrong in that regard.

Possibly. Or maybe the text is wrong. Figure A5-2 on page 125 has both side by side.

I also noticed that there are discrepancies between the text on the placement of patches on the BDU and those in the Attachment 4 table.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 26, 2014, 09:26:24 PM
Now it can be told...
 
Lt Col Preston Perrenot and myself worked on the uniform illustrations that grace the new 39-1. That and fifty cents won't even get me a cup of coffee! :D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on June 26, 2014, 09:27:11 PM
∆ There is no phase out.  Blue field uniform tapes stay ultramarine.

Well I guess that explains why I did not see a phase out date.  I really was not looking for that change apparently.  Unfortunate as dark navy would look better, but nevertheless saves some money I guess.  Eh oh well. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 26, 2014, 09:32:25 PM
I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

Seconded.  I have quite pronounced astigmatism and have to wear bifocals.  I am restricted to driving with glasses or contact lenses.  My glasses darken outside and it is a great help to me.

They're in a low key, almost Radar O'Reilly/John Lennon type of frame.  They are not gaudy or faddish.

I am not taking them off.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: TexasCadet on June 26, 2014, 09:38:18 PM
Is it just me, or does the shield device on cadet enlisted insignia look a little different?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 26, 2014, 09:40:44 PM
So the big question for us NCOs.....when will Vanguard have the new stripes?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: jeders on June 26, 2014, 09:46:28 PM
So the big question for us NCOs.....when will Vanguard have the new stripes?

I'm putting my money on 6 months after the next revision to 39-1.

Now it can be told...
 
Lt Col Preston Perrenot and myself worked on the uniform illustrations that grace the new 39-1. That and fifty cents won't even get me a cup of coffee! :D

Well that explains why they look so familiar and high quality.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mela_007 on June 26, 2014, 09:48:25 PM
Personally, I am glad they stuck with the ultramarine blue tape for the BBDUs.  I was not looking forward to changing the tapes either!!  :o  I believe one comment that I did submit was that if we went with the navy blue background tape on the BBDUs we would essentially look exactly like the current uniforms worn by both the US Coast Guard and the NOAA Corp.  I know they are not our parent services, but I feel as a civilian entity we should not have an exact copy of any of the uniformed service uniforms...JMHO. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: RiverAux on June 26, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
Still can't believe that we decided to downplay the importance of uniforms by no longer requiring them to be worn during normal CAP duties. 

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mela_007 on June 26, 2014, 09:55:12 PM
Still can't believe that we decided to downplay the importance of uniforms by no longer requiring them to be worn during normal CAP duties. 
I didn't see that, but then I have not had a chance to read through it much yet.  That stinks!!   :-\
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 26, 2014, 10:00:41 PM
The miniature Incident Commander badges are supposed to be 1 1/8" wide according to the new CAPM 39-1, but the one I bought three months ago is significantly smaller than that.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 26, 2014, 10:01:42 PM
Is it just me, or does the shield device on cadet enlisted insignia look a little different?

I think it was simplified for illustrative purposes. Some of the fine detail such as the stars, stripes and propeller in the cadet shield would have been difficult to discern when printed. Not to worry, the insignia still specs out properly.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Slim on June 26, 2014, 10:10:03 PM
Personally, I am glad they stuck with the ultramarine blue tape for the BBDUs.  I was not looking forward to changing the tapes either!!  :o  I believe one comment that I did submit was that if we went with the navy blue background tape on the BBDUs we would essentially look exactly like the current uniforms worn by both the US Coast Guard and the NOAA Corp.  I know they are not our parent services, but I feel as a civilian entity we should not have an exact copy of any of the uniformed service uniforms...JMHO.

Honestly, on my BBDUs (which are navy blue as specified, not dark navy), the ultramarine tapes look better than the dark navy would.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: gshayd on June 26, 2014, 10:53:15 PM
I am reading the new 39-1

Figure 4.6 Male Service Dress Uniforms (Officer, NCO, Cadet Officers [Old Style], and Cadet
NCOs and Airmen [New Style])

4.1.5.4.1.1. Officers and NCOs. The US lapel insignia will be placed
halfway up the seam, resting on but not over it. The “US” letters in the insignia are parallel with the
ground. Circles are worn around the US insignias for NCOs only. NCOs wearing old USAF-style
chevrons until the new chevrons are available will wear CAP cutouts on the collar.


4.1.5.5. Long-Sleeve/Short-Sleeve Blue Shirt


I would assume that the cutouts would still be worn on the collar of the BDU until you put the new CAP chevrons on?

4.1.5.5.2.2. NCOs, adult individuals without grade and Cadet airmen basic
do not wear “CAP” insignia on the shirt collar when the service coat is worn

I assume that they left this out of 4.1.5.5.2.2

 NCOs wearing old USAF-style
chevrons until the new chevrons are available will wear CAP cutouts on the collar.

confused.........


Okay went to the Attachment with the NCO rank and it makes sense now.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panzerbjorn on June 26, 2014, 10:59:30 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.

No, it means you're not authorized to wear sunglasses in formation. If you want to wear sunglasses in uniform, not in formation, then they have to meet the requirement. They don't have to cost $400. And by the way, that requirement is in the previous CAPM 39-1 too; nothing changed here.

I don't have sunglasses, I have prescription photosensitive lenses, which of course will darken when I go outside, since that's their purpose.  My glasses (with frame allowance) cost 400 dollars as I am extremely myopic.

How were you going to do it before, since this was the rule even in the old 39-1? You couldn't take them off long enough to stand in a formation?

Nobody has ever made a comment about my glasses when I was in formation, and they've been darkening since I joined.  No, I literally can't see the E without my glasses, and have them on from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I even swim with them on.

Option 1: take the glasses off in formation and put them in your pocket.

Option 2: ignore any dirty looks or comments you may encounter when you wear them.  What are they going to do, 2B you for wearing necessary prescription glasses?

I think you can  stop losing sleep over this one.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 26, 2014, 11:02:19 PM
Still can't believe that we decided to downplay the importance of uniforms by no longer requiring them to be worn during normal CAP duties.

The uniforms have been gradually downplayed for years.  This just codifies it.  Whoever came up with this WD of an idea... >:(
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on June 26, 2014, 11:02:30 PM
Good deal on the use of graphics. Gets right to the point.

I concur, much clearer.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on June 26, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
Now it can be told...
 
Lt Col Preston Perrenot and myself worked on the uniform illustrations that grace the new 39-1. That and fifty cents won't even get me a cup of coffee! :D

 :clap:

Outstanding.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 26, 2014, 11:16:41 PM
And, of course, they still say the "CAP Baseball cap" is authorised headgear for the G/W kit, but they don't say what constitutes a CAP baseball cap.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on June 27, 2014, 12:10:39 AM
And, of course, they still say the "CAP Baseball cap" is authorised headgear for the G/W kit, but they don't say what constitutes a CAP baseball cap.
They leave that to wing/region commanders, with some guidance of what cannot be on there.


Also, the only change to this is that before it was unit commanders that could make the approval.....
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 12:10:46 AM
Good deal on the use of graphics. Gets right to the point.

I agree, but like all things CAP, they are "good enough" instead of "great".

A mixture of photo and graphic elements, some fairly glaring errors, and what's with the black and white photo of
the Goretex jacket when there's a color diagram of one in the same document.

This is what happens when something is hidden from public comment in the last round, and then rushed out the
door in the 11th hour.

Totally unnecessary, when you consider this has been cooking for several years in the revised format.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Walkman on June 27, 2014, 01:03:01 AM
I noticed the new "aircrew" wings (with three levels) made it into this from the draft. Anyone know when 35-6 is on track to be updated to include them?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: ColonelJack on June 27, 2014, 01:09:26 AM
Maybe I missed it, but ...

In the section on when the uniform should and (specifically) should not be worn, one big thing seems to have been left out:

"When engaged in private employment."

Or did I miss it?

Jack
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 27, 2014, 01:12:58 AM
Good deal on the use of graphics. Gets right to the point.

I agree, but like all things CAP, they are "good enough" instead of "great".

A mixture of photo and graphic elements, some fairly glaring errors, and what's with the black and white photo of
the Goretex jacket when there's a color diagram of one in the same document.

This is what happens when something is hidden from public comment in the last round, and then rushed out the
door in the 11th hour.

Totally unnecessary, when you consider this has been cooking for several years in the revised format.
Yea....if all the unpaid volunteers would just get off their butts and do their jobs right.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Marvin on June 27, 2014, 01:33:25 AM
Still can't believe that we decided to downplay the importance of uniforms by no longer requiring them to be worn during normal CAP duties.

Forgive my ignorance, but where was that specified in the old version?  I know there were specific times, such as in CAP A/C, working with cadets, etc., but I don't remember requiring uniforms for all CAP duties.  Thanks in advance for helping me.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: cap235629 on June 27, 2014, 01:36:24 AM
what happened to the badges and nametapes being changed to Navy Blue??????
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 01:39:47 AM
what happened to the badges and nametapes being changed to Navy Blue??????

Scuttle was that was part of the ABU change over and when reality finally broke through (i.e. no ABUs)
the tape change was dropped.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 01:44:18 AM
Yea....if all the unpaid volunteers would just get off their butts and do their jobs right.

Nice try, not relevent.

If you take a job, you do it right, or find someone who will.

Some of the issues I mentioned were pointed out in the very early drafts, and simply ignored.

This is a huge improvement over the previous, but it is not done, and it should have gone through at least one more
round of public comment for typos and omissions instead of being secreted away for 6 months.

Not to mention the style inconsistencies - once the content was essentially complete, they could have solicited
some members who are professional designers and graphics people to insure the style and format is/was consistent.

Heck, there's 10 people reading this thread right now who could have knocked it off it a weekend.

This is textbook CAP - ignore something for a decade, then one day wake up and decide it's "important", then it's not,
then it is, then it >IS<...then it sits, and sits, and sits, and comes out 7/8th complete, and the people who
were charged with "it" find themselves wishing they'ed done one more walk-through before signing the closing papers.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 27, 2014, 01:52:13 AM
Personally, I like that they have allowed a riggers belt, one color tshirt for the CFU and the BDU, charged the membership with enforcement of the manual for discrepancies, and its for the most part in clear cut plain speak as to what is allowed.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 01:59:10 AM
Definitely like this:

6.2.8.1. The BDU cap will be composed of a cloth woodland camouflage print either in a
“patrol style” or in a baseball cap style where the back half of the baseball style cap may be plastic mesh. 86 CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
The BDU cap will rest squarely on the head with the bottom of the cap parallel with the ground. The brim
of the cap will face forward. Cap may not be pushed, rolled, folded or tucked in (e.g. ranger fold).


6.2.9. CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation,
and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems
(clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.


Not that simple language will change anything.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 02:02:27 AM
5.2.2.8.1. Men will wear underpants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiSxkrqMgM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiSxkrqMgM#)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: CAP_truth on June 27, 2014, 02:44:58 AM
New some flight uniforms are allowed cloth grade on them, getting away from plastic grade. Also placement of secondary specialty badges and command badge for former squadron and group commanders
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 02:58:42 AM
New some flight uniforms are allowed cloth grade on them...

Has been allowed since the last rev.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:07:06 AM
Well.  It's out.

Since I was taught to try to lead off with something positive, I will do so now.

THE GOOD:


THE BAD:


THE UGLY:

As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws, I feel that it's only fair to reflect that outlook.  I continue to see my so-called leaders wearing BDUs and AF-style Blues when it's quite clear they're not in compliance.  There was some hope that they would have to be held to the same standards as everybody else with weigh-ins, but that was taken out.

I'm tired of being the only person in my Squadron who wears the G/Ws or BBDUs.  I was hoping that at least this version of 39-1 would attempt to add some dignity to those uniforms.

Since CAP is lacking in integrity, I no longer feel bound by my personal integrity to wear G/Ws or BBDUs.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  If challenged (yeah, like that'll happen) I'll simply point out that the burden of proof is on them.  And since they can't force me to weigh in... good luck with that.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 04:11:58 AM
  • Major Corway and Lt. Col. Perrenot did a bang-up job with the graphic illustrations.  Excellent work, gentlemen.

Yes, please do not take my personal whining as negative towards your efforts.  Thank you.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 27, 2014, 04:13:23 AM
Maybe I missed it, but ...

In the section on when the uniform should and (specifically) should not be worn, one big thing seems to have been left out:

"When engaged in private employment."

Or did I miss it?

Jack


You missed it. 

Quote
1.2.7.4. While furthering political activities, private employment or commercial interest.



As for me, I prefer the brown t-shirts - at least I get to wear them a while longer.   Apparently we all need to move our grade insignias on the BDU caps..   The diagram shows them centered above the seam.  Oh, and no more white socks with BDUs/combat boots?  Who's gonna see them anyway?     >:(


The really interesting part is that while they clarified what SMWOG Adult members without grade wear for insignia on blues and grey/whites (no-insignia CAP slides), they never say which flight cap they wear or which device goes on it - it only covers Officers and NCOs.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 27, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
  I continue to see my so-called leaders wearing BDUs and AF-style Blues when it's quite clear they're not in compliance.  There was some hope that they would have to be held to the same standards as everybody else with weigh-ins, but that was taken out.

They didn't specify weigh-ins, but they DID put this in:

Quote
1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight
(see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are
expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand
these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for
meeting these requirements, and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:19:48 AM
  I continue to see my so-called leaders wearing BDUs and AF-style Blues when it's quite clear they're not in compliance.  There was some hope that they would have to be held to the same standards as everybody else with weigh-ins, but that was taken out.

They didn't specify weigh-ins, but they DID put this in:

Quote
1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight
(see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are
expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand
these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for
meeting these requirements, and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

And how will they enforce it, exactly?

"Captain, what is your weight?"
"240 pounds, sir."
"Oh, okay."
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: vento on June 27, 2014, 04:22:33 AM
  I continue to see my so-called leaders wearing BDUs and AF-style Blues when it's quite clear they're not in compliance.  There was some hope that they would have to be held to the same standards as everybody else with weigh-ins, but that was taken out.

They didn't specify weigh-ins, but they DID put this in:

Quote
1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight
(see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are
expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand
these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for
meeting these requirements, and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

And how will they enforce it, exactly?

"Captain, what is your weight?"
"260 pounds, sir."
"Oh, okay."

INTEGRITY. But since you've already pointed out that your unit and yourself are ignoring this first core value, I can only feel sorry for your attitude.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 04:25:33 AM
  I continue to see my so-called leaders wearing BDUs and AF-style Blues when it's quite clear they're not in compliance.  There was some hope that they would have to be held to the same standards as everybody else with weigh-ins, but that was taken out.

They didn't specify weigh-ins, but they DID put this in:

Quote
1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight
(see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are
expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand
these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for
meeting these requirements, and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

And how will they enforce it, exactly?

"Captain, what is your weight?"
"240 pounds, sir."
"Oh, okay."

Panache, I understand and feel your pain, but a commander would be well in his rights
to require you to weigh-in if he feels you are out of weight, and restrict your
participation in a uniform he feels you are not authorized to wear.

Your only option would be to comply or not participate.  You certainly couldn't file a sustainable complaint,
since enforcing wear standards is clearly a CC's mandate.

The way to combat people with no integrity is to set the example, not abandon your own.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:32:14 AM
Panache, I understand and feel your pain, but a commander would be well in his rights
to require you to weigh-in if he feels you are out of weight, and restrict your
participation in a uniform he feels you are not authorized to wear.

The frustration in palatable.

Can you please show me the regulation that authorizes involuntary weight-ins?

You certainly couldn't file a sustainable complaint, since enforcing wear standards is clearly a CC's mandate.

Not implying that is a realistic option.

The way to combat people with no integrity is to set the example, not abandon your own.

And that has gotten us where, exactly?  I'm feeling like I'm being played by CAP, and I don't like it.

INTEGRITY. But since you've already pointed out that your unit and yourself are ignoring this first core value, I can only feel sorry for your attitude.

When CAP itself doesn't practice what they preach and show integrity, why should I show it in return?

I imagine it's easy to get on the "Integrity!" high horse when you're not the one being affected by repressive policies.  And it's not just "my unit", it's through the entire organization.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 04:38:39 AM
Can you please show me the regulation that authorizes involuntary weight-ins?

39-1, quoted above.

When you say "240" the CC says "I don't believe you, show me".

If you don't, your option is whites or not participating, and I can't see disciplinary action,
up to and including termination, not being sustained, since compliance with 29-1 is mandatory
and substantiation is simple.

I think most of us would prefer mandatory weigh-ins as a matter of course, but
not much has really changed.  This had always been a CC's option.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:47:52 AM
Can you please show me the regulation that authorizes involuntary weight-ins?

39-1, quoted above.

When you say "240" the CC says "I don't believe you, show me".

If you don't, your option is whites or not participating, and I can't see disciplinary action,
up to and including termination, not being sustained, since compliance with 29-1 is mandatory
and substantiation is simple.

We will see.  I am conducting my own personal experiment.  Let's see what happens first:

a) Nobody says anything to challenge me.
b) Somebody challenges me, but drops it when I refuse the weigh in.
c) I get 2B'd.
d) I get challenged and I drag it out long enough until my CAP membership expires.

Either way, it's going to be interesting.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 27, 2014, 04:52:17 AM
We will see.  I am conducting my own personal experiment.  Let's see what happens first:

a) Nobody says anything to challenge me.
b) Somebody challenges me, but drops it when I refuse the weigh in.
c) I get 2B'd.
d) I get challenged and I drag it out long enough until my CAP membership expires.

Either way, it's going to be interesting.

So play tit for tat and compromise your integrity to stick it to the man?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:54:18 AM
We will see.  I am conducting my own personal experiment.  Let's see what happens first:

a) Nobody says anything to challenge me.
b) Somebody challenges me, but drops it when I refuse the weigh in.
c) I get 2B'd.
d) I get challenged and I drag it out long enough until my CAP membership expires.

Either way, it's going to be interesting.

So play tit for tat and compromise your integrity to stick it to the man?

I view it more as standing up for what I believe is right.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on June 27, 2014, 04:55:17 AM
I'm directly affect by those policies myself, however I don't find them repressive.  I stand true to my personal integrity and hold my unit to their integrity as well.  My CDC and CDS (both on here) do the same.

As for why you should show it in return, simple, if you cannot show personal integrity, how can you possibly even think of expecting it of others?  No, we can't order our wing commanders and higher to do something, however a tactful reminder of every members responsibility to follow all of the regulations could be in order.  I know if I were in those positions, I'd expect something like that from my members, it is after all, their responsibility.  This is even explicitly stated in the manual.

Quote
2.12.1.6. All members will be alert to other CAP members that may be in violation of uniform and appearance standards and provide correction to any CAP member that is in violation of uniform and appearance standards. That correction must be provided in a way that reflects CAP’s core value of respect, both of the uniform and of the other member.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 27, 2014, 04:59:25 AM
I view it more as standing up for what I believe is right.

If that's the case then compromising YOUR integrity is not the way to go.  But if you can sleep by compromising yourself like that well I feel sorry for those around you.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MajorM on June 27, 2014, 04:59:41 AM
Hmmm... Someone should've pointed that out to our region commander before he went on his little uniform rant at the last wing conference.  I know that pretty much no one felt "respect" emanating from him.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 05:04:13 AM
As for why you should show it in return, simple, if you cannot show personal integrity, how can you possibly even think of expecting it of others? 

I've been showing personal integrity, while others around me have not, and it's gotten me squat.

With all due respect, Colonel, words of integrity and honor are nice when writing them on some internet forum, but, as I've learned, seem to hold zero weight in the real world, working with real people.

Either I adapt to the reality of my environment, or I (figuratively) die.  I have chosen to do what I feel is right.  What, to me, my personal integrity demands of me.  I hold no illusions, I fully expect this will mean the end of my CAP career.  So be it.  I'll be able to sleep well at night with that knowledge.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 05:06:40 AM
I view it more as standing up for what I believe is right.

If that's the case then compromising YOUR integrity is not the way to go.  But if you can sleep by compromising yourself like that well I feel sorry for those around you.

And you're perfectly willing to throw almost half of the membership under the bus so you can fool yourself that you're upholding integrity?  I feel sorry for the those around you.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 27, 2014, 05:13:48 AM
And you're perfectly willing to throw almost half of the membership under the bus so you can fool yourself that you're upholding integrity?  I feel sorry for the those around you.

I uphold the standards set down period regardless of what you wear.  If you're out of regs and I see it I'll say something the day I can't wear AF style in this I'll comply with what I can wear and you wont hear me gripe about being second class.  Most of the griping I hear about those wearing the corp uniforms are those who don't want to abide by H/W or don't want to abide by grooming.  Sorry play by the rules or don't and reap the consequences.  I have not thrown anyone under the bus because of what uniform in this org they can or cannot wear.  Sorry but I am not going to stoop to someone's level to play tit for tat.  I hope you're not on a GT or AC because I'd hate to work with someone who's going to thumb their nose at something so simple especially if someone's life is at stake.  PA must be proud to have ya...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 05:25:32 AM
And you're perfectly willing to throw almost half of the membership under the bus so you can fool yourself that you're upholding integrity?  I feel sorry for the those around you.

I uphold the standards set down period regardless of what you wear.  If you're out of regs and I see it I'll say something the day I can't wear AF style in this I'll comply with what I can wear and you wont hear me gripe about being second class. 

Again, easy to say when it's not actually affecting you.  So, please, stop with your hollow boasts.

Quote
Most of the griping I hear about those wearing the corp uniforms are those who don't want to abide by H/W or don't want to abide by grooming.

You want to talk about integrity?  At least I'm being honest and up-front with my intentions, unlike the wink-and-a-nod behavior of our leadership.  But, hey, attack me if it makes you feel like a man.

Quote
PA must be proud to have ya...

Looking at my prior awards and commendations, yeah, apparently so.  I feel sorry for AZWG though.

For the record, I'm not looking for your approval or acceptance.  I know what I have to say would mostly fall upon deaf ears here. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 27, 2014, 05:34:16 AM
And you're perfectly willing to throw almost half of the membership under the bus so you can fool yourself that you're upholding integrity?  I feel sorry for the those around you.

I uphold the standards set down period regardless of what you wear.  If you're out of regs and I see it I'll say something the day I can't wear AF style in this I'll comply with what I can wear and you wont hear me gripe about being second class. 

Again, easy to say when it's not actually affecting you.  So, please, stop with your hollow boasts.

Quote
Most of the griping I hear about those wearing the corp uniforms are those who don't want to abide by H/W or don't want to abide by grooming.

You want to talk about integrity?  At least I'm being honest and up-front with my intentions, unlike the wink-and-a-nod behavior of our leadership.  But, hey, attack me if it makes you feel like a man.

Quote
PA must be proud to have ya...

Looking at my prior awards and commendations, yeah, apparently so.  I feel sorry for AZWG though.

For the record, I'm not looking for your approval or acceptance.  I know what I have to say would mostly fall upon deaf ears here.

Calling it like I see it, sorry if you can't handle it.  And there is nothing hollow about what I have said plain and simple and I have folks that will back me on that.  And really I am not here or responding to give you approval or acceptance, but I can tell you that if I was your CC we'd be having a talk about your intentions. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 05:40:11 AM
Calling it like I see it, sorry if you can't handle it. 

I can handle it just fine.  I just don't care what you think.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 27, 2014, 05:59:01 AM
[Most of the griping I hear about those wearing the corp uniforms are those who don't want to abide by H/W or don't want to abide by grooming.

In many cases, it's not a case of wanting to abide by H/W.  I've related my health issues before so I won't go back into that, but suffice it to say that the medications I take have caused me to rack up pounds I never thought I'd have (I was anaemic as a child and quite UNDERweight).  Early onset of arthritis in my hips makes it difficult for me to exercise like I want to.

I know of people in CAP who are in wheelchairs and even more unable to exercise...and have racked on even more poundage.

I don't claim to speak for others, but I highly doubt that many others with weight exclusions viz. uniforms like having to wear the G/W kit.

I, too, notice a hardening of attitudes about the "corporate" uniforms...even not allowing "scalloped" pockets, which is bloody stupid.  Why?  Would it look "too military?"  Now I have to buy another shirt to be "in compliance."  The one I have is Van Heusen made...but apparently the pockets are offensive.  I, too, don't think that NUC took any of the members' views into account.  I know, I know, they don't have to, and they didn't.  But wearing that "uniform" gives me the feeling of falling out of the ugly tree and hitting every branch on the way down.

But, for the record...even though I have to wear that "uniform," at least I keep my grooming within standards.  I don't have to, but I do.

Regarding "commander's directive"...does that mean if a unit CC's favourite "uniform" is the golf shirt that everyone in the unit must purchase and wear said item?  If so, that's a load of old codswallop; if you haven't one to begin with, a CC can make you shell out YOUR cash for one?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: gshayd on June 27, 2014, 07:15:25 AM
 
The really interesting part is that while they clarified what SMWOG Adult members without grade wear for insignia on blues and grey/whites (no-insignia CAP slides), they never say which flight cap they wear or which device goes on it - it only covers Officers and NCOs.

It said if you are SM with no grade yet choosing to go the officer route you wear the Officer Flight Cap in addition to wearing the Officer Service Coat with braid ....If you choose to go to the Darkside and be an NCO then its the flight cap with the blue braid and Enlisted Service Coat until you get your prior grade back.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 07:24:08 AM
I would like to note that at this year's PAWG wing conference, I saw a grand total of one person wearing the "Corporate Semi-Formal Dress." 

One.

Take that as you will.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 27, 2014, 09:35:13 AM
And you're perfectly willing to throw almost half of the membership under the bus so you can fool yourself that you're upholding integrity?  I feel sorry for the those around you.

I uphold the standards set down period regardless of what you wear.  If you're out of regs and I see it I'll say something the day I can't wear AF style in this I'll comply with what I can wear and you wont hear me gripe about being second class.  Most of the griping I hear about those wearing the corp uniforms are those who don't want to abide by H/W or don't want to abide by grooming.  Sorry play by the rules or don't and reap the consequences.  I have not thrown anyone under the bus because of what uniform in this org they can or cannot wear.  Sorry but I am not going to stoop to someone's level to play tit for tat.  I hope you're not on a GT or AC because I'd hate to work with someone who's going to thumb their nose at something so simple especially if someone's life is at stake.  PA must be proud to have ya...

You know, I get what you're trying to say here, but you're really failing at being respectful or at least neutral about it.

Grooming, generally, is a choice. H/W isn't quite the same choice for many people.

 

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Archer on June 27, 2014, 12:30:57 PM
Calling it like I see it, sorry if you can't handle it. 

I can handle it just fine.  I just don't care what you think.

Could y'all imagine how hilarious this would be if this was a cadet saying this? xD

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: DoubleSecret on June 27, 2014, 12:43:53 PM
So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on June 27, 2014, 12:54:46 PM
So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

I imagine the intent was to bring it in line with how the other qualification badges, such as aviation, which is permanently awarded.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NC Hokie on June 27, 2014, 01:02:59 PM
So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's...yeah.

Why do we even allow medical badges on our field uniforms?  We have pages and pages of regulations stating that CAP is not a first response, primary care agency, but we encourage members to identify themselves as first responders by the badges we let them wear on the uniform.  I just don't get it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Pulsar on June 27, 2014, 01:06:07 PM
Why did the change the insignia requirements for a C/AB? Why are they now not allowed to wear the cap cutouts?

Why are they making the US flag optional?

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NC Hokie on June 27, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
Why did the change the insignia requirements for a C/AB? Why are they now not allowed to wear the cap cutouts?

Probably an effort to save parents a little money, since C/ABs can promote as soon as they're on the roster.  My experience has been that most don't, but they can.

Why are they making the US flag optional?

They haven't made it optional, it's intended to be gone by 1 Jan 2017.  They're just giving us a fairly generous phase out period.  As to why, the official answer will probably be that the reverse US flag is not worn by the Air Force, but the cynic in me suspects that erasing another reminder of HWSRN plays into it as well.

My personal preference if to keep it, especially since the end result of taking it off and only allowing NCSA patches in that location will actually make the uniform look LESS uniform, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 02:15:57 PM
Apparently we all need to move our grade insignias on the BDU caps..   The diagram shows them centered above the seam.

Page 1:
"Clarifies rank insignia for officers should be centered on the BDU and Blue Field Caps to match USAF standard. "

I rarely wear the Castro hat, but I went with the metal anyway.

Another typo - the Chaplain's insignia is still indicated as:
"6.2.10.4. Chaplains may wear embroidered on ultramarine blue material or metal insignia
centered ½ inch above the visor on the front of the Blue Field Cap."


(BDU verbiage is correct)

Oh, and no more white socks with BDUs/combat boots?  Who's gonna see them anyway?

All those staff NCOs!
(http://terminallance.com/media/comics/2014-06-27-Strip_330_Into_Fruition2.gif)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
They haven't made it optional, it's intended to be gone by 1 Jan 2017.  They're just giving us a fairly generous phase out period.

To be fair, the verbiage is literally "Optional for wear until that date."

It speaks volumes that it NHQ thinks it should take 3-1/2 years for the members to get the word and use a stitch ripper.
Seriously, we still have people showing up with wing patches on blues, sometimes the same people more then once.

Mine would be gone the next time I was near my CAP closet, except that removing it will probably leave a mark
because I always affix my patches with the iron-on backing to make them easier to sew.

Hopefully I have something else I can wear in its place, if only so I can have the entertainment of the
conversations from people challenging my patriotism base on whether I've got a backwards flag on my shirt.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 27, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
I would like to note that at this year's PAWG wing conference, I saw a grand total of one person wearing the "Corporate Semi-Formal Dress." 

One.

Take that as you will.
Your point?  Because, I take that as I will as nothing....next!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 27, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's...yeah.

Why do we even allow medical badges on our field uniforms?  We have pages and pages of regulations stating that CAP is not a first response, primary care agency, but we encourage members to identify themselves as first responders by the badges we let them wear on the uniform.  I just don't get it.
Re-read those.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: tribalelder on June 27, 2014, 02:57:34 PM
Stocking cap now legit +

Boots not req'd w BBDU or golf shirt ++

No cut outs on BDU or BBDU field jacket epaulets +++
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 03:00:44 PM

We will see.  I am conducting my own personal experiment.  Let's see what happens first:

a) Nobody says anything to challenge me.
b) Somebody challenges me, but drops it when I refuse the weigh in.
c) I get 2B'd.
d) I get challenged and I drag it out long enough until my CAP membership expires.

Either way, it's going to be interesting.

So play tit for tat and compromise your integrity to stick it to the man?

I view it more as standing up for what I believe is right.

Actually, it's not. I feel your pain, but two wrongs don't make a right. You've been doing the right thing; they have not. By doing what you know is wrong, you're not "standing up", but lowering yourself to the same level. I hope you reconsider your approach.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: TexasCadet on June 27, 2014, 03:07:28 PM

Why did the change the insignia requirements for a C/AB? Why are they now not allowed to wear the cap cutouts?[/cut]



Maybe it's because Airmen Basics in the Air Force don't wear any insignia. Just my $0.02.


As for me, I prefer the brown t-shirts - at least I get to wear them a while longer.   Apparently we all need to move our grade insignias on the BDU caps..   The diagram shows them centered above the seam.  Oh, and no more white socks with BDUs/combat boots?  Who's gonna see them anyway?     >:(
[/cut]



All I have is white socks for my BDUs, but now I have to spend more money (oh joy). What is the point of these seemingly arbitrary changes?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 03:11:56 PM
Boots not req'd w BBDU or golf shirt

Never were.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 03:16:52 PM
Oh, and no more white socks with BDUs/combat boots?  Who's gonna see them anyway?     >:(

No one if you tuck your trousers in your boots. The white socks could show for many of us who blouse them over the boots.

The really interesting part is that while they clarified what SMWOG Adult members without grade wear for insignia on blues and grey/whites (no-insignia CAP slides), they never say which flight cap they wear or which device goes on it - it only covers Officers and NCOs.

Not correct.

Quote from: New CAPM 39-1, Para. 1.4
Adults without Grade. Adult individuals without grade will wear the dress uniform for the grade structure they are pursuing: officer or non-commissioned officer (NCO). Unit commanders will monitor new individuals to ensure they comply with the requirements of this paragraph.

Those adults without grade seeking to be officers wear the officer flight cap and those seeking to be NCO the enlisted one. The cap device is the same for both.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 03:21:10 PM
Actually, it's not. I feel your pain, but two wrongs don't make a right. You've been doing the right thing; they have not. By doing what you know is wrong, you're not "standing up", but lowering yourself to the same level. I hope you reconsider your approach.

Heck, want to have some real fun and maybe make a real difference?

Start filing formal complaints regarding the commanders' in question "dereliction of duty".  If things are
as bad as you say they are (likely), photos from any meetings or other random even would be enough
to substantiate the complaint - how could any IG ignore it?

The regs are clear, the responsibility is clear, and there's the photos. There's no "fat boy" program in
CAP so you're either "good or not".

Show a photo at 0900 of a person out of spec and another at 1130 at the same activity and the complaint
is sustainable.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garp on June 27, 2014, 03:29:16 PM
Be surprised if the IG looked at it; they will probably punt right back to the chain of command. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NC Hokie on June 27, 2014, 03:50:02 PM
So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's...yeah.

Why do we even allow medical badges on our field uniforms?  We have pages and pages of regulations stating that CAP is not a first response, primary care agency, but we encourage members to identify themselves as first responders by the badges we let them wear on the uniform.  I just don't get it.
Re-read those.

I did; what's your point?

I get the irony that exists between the two examples, but that's just a minor annoyance.  My beef is that NHQ goes out of its way to remind us that CAP is not a medical provider, so there's no organizational need to advertise those skills on our uniforms at all, current or not.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 04:02:37 PM

So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's because the CPR patch is akin the Emergency Services patch; you have to be current and qualified to wear it. And the EMT badge is akin the Ground Team badge; it's a permanent award that can continued to be worn once earned.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
That's because the CPR patch is akin the Emergency Services patch; you have to be current and qualified to wear it.

Agreed - it's just another permanently awarded badge.

For the CPR patch, you have to be super-hero excited about advertising something not required in CAP and that most people do as a matter of course.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: DoubleSecret on June 27, 2014, 04:46:01 PM

So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's because the CPR patch is akin the Emergency Services patch; you have to be current and qualified to wear it. And the EMT badge is akin the Ground Team badge; it's a permanent award that can continued to be worn once earned.

It's great until a situation arises, someone sees that badge on a long-uncertified member wearing the corporate field uniform, and expects EMT/paramedic response.  Potential PR nightmare for CAP, along these lines.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/charges-dropped-emt-called-911-pregnant-woman-died-article-1.1381913 (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/charges-dropped-emt-called-911-pregnant-woman-died-article-1.1381913)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Salty on June 27, 2014, 04:55:36 PM
As a former NREMT-B in the USAF there is no way in the world I'd wear an EMT badge without being current.  I wouldn't wear my AFSC medic badge on my blues either without being current.

In fact, when I was in the USAF we were actively DISCOURAGED from putting stars of life or any other identifying EMS marks on our personal vehicles.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Archer on June 27, 2014, 05:09:18 PM
In fact, when I was in the USAF we were actively DISCOURAGED from putting stars of life or any other identifying EMS marks on our personal vehicles.

Why?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Salty on June 27, 2014, 05:17:15 PM
From what I remember there was an issue with not being covered under the Good Samaritan Law since we were trained medical personnel.  Not having identifying markers on our vehicles also stopped us from being obligated to stop and help at an accident scene.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 27, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
 
The really interesting part is that while they clarified what SMWOG Adult members without grade wear for insignia on blues and grey/whites (no-insignia CAP slides), they never say which flight cap they wear or which device goes on it - it only covers Officers and NCOs.

It said if you are SM with no grade yet choosing to go the officer route you wear the Officer Flight Cap in addition to wearing the Officer Service Coat with braid ....If you choose to go to the Darkside and be an NCO then its the flight cap with the blue braid and Enlisted Service Coat until you get your prior grade back.

Cite, please.  :)

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 05:36:30 PM
Citation provided on Post #108.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 27, 2014, 05:47:25 PM

That's because the CPR patch is akin the Emergency Services patch; you have to be current and qualified to wear it.

Agreed - it's just another permanently awarded badge.

For the CPR patch, you have to be super-hero excited about advertising something not required in CAP and that most people do as a matter of course.
you are forgetting to think like a 12 year old
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 27, 2014, 05:51:58 PM


So you have to be current to wear the CPR patch (see 10.7.23), but former emergency medical technicians can wear the EMT badge (see 10.4.7). 

*facepalm*

That's because the CPR patch is akin the Emergency Services patch; you have to be current and qualified to wear it. And the EMT badge is akin the Ground Team badge; it's a permanent award that can continued to be worn once earned.

It's great until a situation arises, someone sees that badge on a long-uncertified member wearing the corporate field uniform, and expects EMT/paramedic response.  Potential PR nightmare for CAP, along these lines.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/charges-dropped-emt-called-911-pregnant-woman-died-article-1.1381913 (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/charges-dropped-emt-called-911-pregnant-woman-died-article-1.1381913)
Now that's a stretch if ever I heard one! 

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 05:57:30 PM
The entirety of that situation, and all involved, have more personal drama then anyone should have.

One wrinkle is that, at least according to the news, she was on break, but was on duty.
Odds are this was a back room union discussion and now the city will settle with the woman's
family and it will all be forgotten.  Her attitude and those smiling photos don't do here any favors, either.

Leaver her on the desk job.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 27, 2014, 06:20:30 PM
Why did the change the insignia requirements for a C/AB? Why are they now not allowed to wear the cap cutouts?

This was one of the recommendations I made (and I'm sure others did, too) to help keep costs for new cadets under control.

C/ABs buy cutouts to wear until they make C/Amn.  Thats 5-10 weeks or so, right?  Probably way less because they don't have a uniform until pretty close to getting promoted to Airman.  So they wear them 2-3 times? Maybe a half dozen tops?

And the next time a cadet wears cutouts is ... C/2dLt.

Since so many of our cadets don't even make it to their Mitchell, why bother?  $4.50 or so in insignia for a couple weeks worth of wear? 

It may not seem like much, but it does add up. Plus, really, what does it add?


Quote
Why are they making the US flag optional?

The flag is NOT optional. The flag is no longer required and after 2017 will be no longer allowed for wear. (long phase in... although I will tell you that the flag is off my BDUs right now)

The flag was removed from the uniform for several reasons:

1) The USAF does not wear a flag on BDUs (not that they wear them anymore) or ABUs;
2) The US Flag was authorized briefly for certain deployments OCONUS (ie. the multi-national force in Kosovo), but was specifically disallowed for wear in CONUS;
3) Under the current AFI, apart from flying uniforms, flags are not authorized on the utility (ABU) uniform;
4) Under the previous AFI, flags were specifically disallowed on BDUSs.
5) The only US service that wears a flag on their utility uniform is the Army;
6) It was only added in 2007 as part of a number of other initiatives: "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL" on the name tapes/tags, the corporate service uniform and IIRC, the U.S. on the Command Patch.  All of those other initiatives have subsequently been eliminated from our uniform wear methods except the flag.
7) Prior to 2007, we did not wear a US Flag on our utility (BDU) uniforms. Nor did we wear it on the OG-107 fatigue uniforms.  Matter of fact, it wasn't worn for any other part of our prior history before 2007.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Camas on June 27, 2014, 06:36:11 PM
Cite, please.  :)
CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 1-4 as already mentioned. A lot of us may have missed that.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 07:05:02 PM
Quote
Why are they making the US flag optional?

The flag is NOT optional. The flag is no longer required and after 2017 will be no longer allowed for wear. (long phase in... although I will tell you that the flag is off my BDUs right now)

Page 148, seventh item under notes:
     "Optional for wear until that date."

Pedantry provided at no charge!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 07:26:44 PM

Quote
Why are they making the US flag optional?

The flag is NOT optional. The flag is no longer required and after 2017 will be no longer allowed for wear. (long phase in... although I will tell you that the flag is off my BDUs right now)

Page 148, seventh item under notes:
     "Optional for wear until that date."

Pedantry provided at no charge!

They should've use different wording, such as "mandatory removal date" or something to that effect. Frankly, I don't understand the long phase out date for something that can easily be removed. Long phase out dates are usually given when a member may have to incur in additional cost to comply. That's certainly not the case here. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 27, 2014, 08:01:07 PM
I suppose it was too much to ask to have a decent headgear for the G/W, especially given that black fleece jackets are now authorised for said combo.

The undefined "baseball cap," not to mention vague, with a uniform that is to make us look "professional," makes us look like service station attendants (full disclosure: my father was one for many years before starting his own auto repair business).

By broad definition, any and all of these are "CAP baseball caps."  Why?

They are baseball (or "trucker") hats.

They have various permutations of the CAP insignia.

http://www.zazzle.com/civil+air+patrol+hats (http://www.zazzle.com/civil+air+patrol+hats)

http://www.cafepress.co.uk/+civil-air-patrol+hats-caps (http://www.cafepress.co.uk/+civil-air-patrol+hats-caps)

It would have been very easy to offer a grey(ish) flight-cap-type of headdress, like this Royal Netherlands Air Force example (minus Dutch Crown and wing device):

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0x5oMN9MtPg/T-pyBn9mBWI/AAAAAAAALYo/7CSluqyfYVY/s1600/Royal_Netherlands_Air_Force_Garrison_Cap.jpg)

Ah, well, I suppose I can always acquire one of these Swedish Air Force caps, take the insignia off it (rendering it "civilian," and unlike a flight/overseas/forage/wedge cap, is not easily identifiable as "military") and wear that.  The ear flaps would be helpful in these cold Great Lakes Region winters too.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ddr223/SURPLUS%20Items/surp-545/P1340825.jpg)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 08:04:13 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 27, 2014, 08:06:59 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4ccee42b49e2ae1f04010000-400-300/george-zimmer-mens-wearhouse-ceo.jpg)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 27, 2014, 08:07:53 PM
Page 148, seventh item under notes:
     "Optional for wear until that date."

Pedantry provided at no charge!

Awesome. :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on June 27, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

My DCC says he is mandating its madatoriness for the cadets until the very last day.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 27, 2014, 08:33:03 PM

And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

My DCC says he is mandating its madatoriness for the cadets until the very last day.

Unless the unit plans to issue these, I don't see how (or better yet, why) he would make an optional patch mandatory.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: wacapgh on June 27, 2014, 08:34:18 PM

7) Prior to 2007, we did not wear a US Flag on our utility (BDU) uniforms. Nor did we wear it on the OG-107 fatigue uniforms.  Matter of fact, it wasn't worn for any other part of our prior history before 2007.

Not quite.

As part of the "Bicentennial Fever" that was sweeping the good ol' USA back in the "Jurassic Age" (1976), American flags were authorized for wear on the right sleeve of Field Jackets. No specifications as to size, color, borders, or exact placement were given.

Found one at police/fire shop that was "D-Day Airborne" size.
(http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/film/jw.jpg)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 27, 2014, 08:41:42 PM
I stand completely corrected, sir. By the time I joined in 1981 all of that had gone away again.

However, I too would have probably looked for the d-day sized flag.... ;)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 08:56:44 PM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 09:00:17 PM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?

The patch configuration for CAP flight suits is identical to that of Air Mobility Command, except for the plastic grade insignia and leather name tag.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4ccee42b49e2ae1f04010000-400-300/george-zimmer-mens-wearhouse-ceo.jpg)

No, no, no... this one's better!
 
(http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/236x/2f/e5/03/2fe50303ed873364bee23fd3357c46f4.jpg)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: RiverAux on June 27, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
Still can't believe that we decided to downplay the importance of uniforms by no longer requiring them to be worn during normal CAP duties.

Forgive my ignorance, but where was that specified in the old version?  I know there were specific times, such as in CAP A/C, working with cadets, etc., but I don't remember requiring uniforms for all CAP duties.  Thanks in advance for helping me.

Table 1-1 row 6.  Has "Wear" checked next to "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions"
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 09:30:08 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until well past the very last day it's authorized.

Sorry, had to fix that...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on June 27, 2014, 10:05:34 PM
I took the flag off my BDUs last night in preparation for next week's Encampment.   I am not opposed to wearing the flag...but never did like the way the whole thing came down back in the dark days.  The flag on the BDUs was a constant reminder of the whims and silliness of HWSRN.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 12:59:07 AM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

My DCC says he is mandating its madatoriness for the cadets until the very last day.
Why?  Your DCC wants your cadets to spend money that they don't have to?  Please send him to me.....I got a can of NCO whoop _ss that I can sell him for the price of a Reversed U.S. Flag.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SamFranklin on June 28, 2014, 12:59:57 AM
I've only skimmed the new 39-1. My two main reactions are:

1.  Hat's off to the team that put it together. What a miserable task it must have been. Thank you.

2.  Yes, nice job to the people who did the graphics. They look great and are actually better than photos. Thank you. I admire your talent.

3.  If it's overlong and overly complicated, that ought to tell us (CAP collectively) that we have way too many combinations. Older members like myself might remember that the guaybera (sp?) shirt came in not one, but two colors. And the corporate flight suit came in blue and orange. That was 20 years ago, maybe longer, but the point is we have a long, long tradition of making too many darn combinations. If you want an even better 39-1, simplify the uniform options.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 01:01:38 AM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?

The patch configuration for CAP flight suits is identical to that of Air Mobility Command, except for the plastic grade insignia and leather name tag.
AFSOC too....but not USAFE, PACAF, ACC.......so there you go.  :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:09:32 AM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?

The patch configuration for CAP flight suits is identical to that of Air Mobility Command, except for the plastic grade insignia and leather name tag.
AFSOC too....but not USAFE, PACAF, ACC.......so there you go.  :)

Wait...USAF isn't one big, homogeneous family?

THEN WHO ARE WE SUPPOSED TO COPY?!?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SamFranklin on June 28, 2014, 01:09:39 AM
Others have already pointed out that the US flag patch was an anomaly -- something we wore for maybe 8 years of the past 70. With nothing but a gut feeling to go on, I wonder if the screaming and wailing about the patch's demise is just carry-over from the political polarization we see throughout society today. It's no secret that, regardless of your politics, many people on one side think the other side is not fully American. So, CAP comes by and cleans up its 39-1, pulls the flag off for legitimate reasons, and the political fervor outside of CAP bleeds into CAP. 

Also, just an observation, if you've ever lived in Europe you'll know that over there it's uncommon for ordinary people to fly their flag at home, let alone wear it. Over there, the flag is a symbol of the state, not so much the people. Here, because our state was founded upon an ideal that people were asked to buy-into, and have bought-into, we're much more likely to love our flag and fly it proudly. There's less distance between the people and the government.

As the old song goes, "And by our right, and by our might, it waves forever!"  (Sousa, Stars and Stripes Forever)


ymmv
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
Others have already pointed out that the US flag patch was an anomaly -- something we wore for maybe 8 years of the past 70. With nothing but a gut feeling to go on, I wonder if the screaming and wailing about the patch's demise is just carry-over from the political polarization we see throughout society today.
I think you're oversimplifying it.  My scientific research has identified at LEAST seven different opinions on the subject:

It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!
You can have my flag when you cut it off of my cold, dead shoulder.
It's backwards!
Taking the flag off a sign that we're ashamed to be Americans.
The uniform IS my flag.
Take it away so we'll stop looking like NASCAR drivers.
Meh, it's a patch.  No big deal.

My conclusion is that there are currently between 7 and 58,986 different opinions, which shoots your theory right out of the water.

So there!

 >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SarDragon on June 28, 2014, 02:55:53 AM
I've only skimmed the new 39-1. My two main reactions are:

3.  If it's overlong and overly complicated, that ought to tell us (CAP collectively) that we have way too many combinations. Older members like myself might remember that the guaybera (sp?) shirt came in not one, but two colors. And the corporate flight suit came in blue and orange. That was 20 years ago, maybe longer, but the point is we have a long, long tradition of making too many darn combinations. If you want an even better 39-1, simplify the uniform options.

CAP is actually no better, or worse, than any of the RealMilitary™ services. Do a count, and you'll see that each service has about as many combinations as we do.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 28, 2014, 03:10:09 AM
^ Last time we did the math, the USAF had more combos then CAP.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: antdetroitwallyball on June 28, 2014, 09:43:42 AM
Quote
They haven't made it optional, it's intended to be gone by 1 Jan 2017.  They're just giving us a fairly generous phase out period.  As to why, the official answer will probably be that the reverse US flag is not worn by the Air Force, but the cynic in me suspects that erasing another reminder of HWSRN plays into it as well.

My personal preference if to keep it, especially since the end result of taking it off and only allowing NCSA patches in that location will actually make the uniform look LESS uniform, but it is what it is.
 


The Blue BDU looks even more of a joke without the American Flag. Honestly, I'll probably switch to the Golf Polo for my next uniform. And that's despite the fact that I meet weight standards now for the regular BDU. The Golf Polo uniform actually still looks professional. The current BDU uniforms (both of them) look something like a mixture of a Christmas Tree with hokey ornaments (i.e. grossly comical and oversized Dog ES patch) and a boy scout uniform

Explain to me again, why the American Flag NEEDED to go. Let me give you an example of a good uniform change:

Quote
Change: Eliminate the hokey dog ES patch from utility uniform.
Reason: It looks hokey.
Support for reason:
Hokey crap gets in the way of professional appearance. We claim to represent a professional organization. Lets make our uniform look accordingly.

OR

Change: Eliminate wear of excess oversized "Hey I went to XXXX Special Activity" patches.
Reason: Having a uilitilty uniform decorated with giant oversized colorfull patches makes the uniform look non-uniform and hokey.
Support for reason:
We wear a uniform to look uniform. Let's have wing patch on one shoulder, squadron patch on the other, basic name tapes and call it good. Then everyone would look the same. And with everyone looking the same, we look more professional.

I understand the AF may not have an American flag on their uniform, but what major issue was causing so much problems that it WARRANTED A CHANGE in terms of removing the flag? :) PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that the shoulder flag patch will not be replaced with yet another NCSA patch. Clearly, common sense does not factor into CAP uniform changes, because if that were the case, their would be a highly-visible ES uniform, and Camo would have long been eliminated as an ES utility uniform. Is the active duty AF FORCING these changes on CAP, or are these changes being made by high ranking CAP VOLUNTEERS on a VOLUNTERY basis, informed only by said member's personal (misguided) opinions?

I was so appalled at the new CAP uniform regs that I had to google CGAUX regs just to get a bearing on what is actually normal. ::) Whew! Okay, it looks like the other auxiliary only makes uniform changes when changes are made to the same uniform by the active duty CG. And the active duty CG simply cannot afford to make regular changes to their uniform for stupid reasons, because that would be expensive to the service members.  The CG would rather have fat and fuzzies wearing their same uniform than be affilated with fat and fuzzies wearing an extremely hokey patchwork-quilt ever-changing varient of an old CG uniform.

All right, I feel much better now...........it's not how the rest of the world operates. It's just a CAP thing. ;) ;) ;) ::) ::)

Fortunately for CAP, I don't think like CAP. And I would never consider just up and quitting the organization because of dumb uniform issues. I still feel CAP has a lot to offer. Its just that I came into the organization with a high deal of skeptisism regarding the uniform, and now my previous impressions have been overwhelmingly confirmed. Yes, the CAP utility uniform is in fact the hokey boy scout uniform that it smelled like to me when I first joined. It will be Polo shirt for me, because at public events like airshows, I will at least be able to try and represent CAP as the otherwise credible organization that it is without having my recruiting table pitch be completely undermined by what I'm wearing.

I tried to wear the BDU, because I felt it was a good thing for the Cadets. To some extent, I still feel the BDU offers them something. But not to me.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 28, 2014, 10:56:01 AM
The current BDU uniforms (both of them) look something like a mixture of a Christmas Tree with hokey ornaments (i.e. grossly comical and oversized Dog ES patch) and a boy scout uniform

You don't have to wear ALL the patches, you know....  There are a LOT of optional patches that contribute to the over-color-ness of the BDUs in that regard.  Extra pocket patches, the ES dog (I prefer to avoid him these days), etc.  Just because you can wear all these crazy extra patches doesn't meant you should.

(I won't get into why we have a zillion extra patches...)

Quote
Explain to me again, why the American Flag NEEDED to go.

This was not the initiative to remove the flag from the BDU uniform since 2007. While other uniform changes that came from that era were nixed over time, the flag remained.   Previous iterations of the NUC had proposed removing the flag, and it was incorporated into previous rewrites of 39-1 (that never made it 'out of committee', to so speak).

The flag needed to be removed because it didn't need to be there in the first place. It was ramrodded thru at the time (along with a bunch of other silly changes to the uniform) and *poof* appeared on the uniform.  I don't have the full remembery on this particular issue, but I seem to recall that the USAF didn't even get a chance to approve that particular change (I could be wrong).

I would caution your tone with regard to people behind the NUC and the manual.  Its not like they're sitting in a room illuminated by only one of those pool-table lights, plotting world domination in Woodland camo or something. They are volunteers like you and me, and their processes are guided by the membership (to a point), the desires of the Air Force (to a point), and the commander's instructions.

As a bit of personal historical background, I don't think there has been a change to the uniform manual in the last 30 years where I didn't have some personal heartburn with 1 or 2 items of the myriad of changes.   Oh well.

But I didn't suggest that the people behind the manual didn't have common sense or were misguided.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: antdetroitwallyball on June 28, 2014, 11:06:10 AM
Quote
You don't have to wear ALL the patches, you know....  There are a LOT of optional patches


Problem 1#. Why not make three different equally gaudy name tape color options availible to the membership. We can choose Pink, orange, or ultramarine.

Options are an inherent enemy to a uniform uniform.

Quote
As a bit of personal historical background, I don't think there has been a change to the uniform manual in the last 30 years where I didn't have some personal heartburn with 1 or 2 items of the myriad of changes.   Oh well.

But I didn't suggest that the people behind the manual didn't have common sense or were misguided. I would caution your tone with regard to people behind the NUC and the manual.  Its not like they're sitting in a room illuminated by only one of those pool-table lights, plotting world domination in Woodland camo or something. They are volunteers like you and me, and their processes are guided by the membership (to a point), the desires of the Air Force (to a point), and the commander's instructions.

My point is that if the process for making and designing a CAP uniform was good and effective, then there would be no such thing as a frequent uniform manual change. It's not that I think that the uniform people are stupid or lack normal common sense, it's just that I can't help looking at the current BDU without thinking:

"This uniform has morphed into a non-uniform uniform that screams "lets please everyone" at the expense of still looking professional." Try as they might, the BDU hardly looks professional, and doesn't really look "USAF" even though its supposedly "USAF-style." Its Camo, and supposedly Camo means military, and one of the five branches of the military happens to be USAF. There. That is the USAF heritage that the current BDU brings to CAP. Fail, if you ask me. So for all good intentions that these well-meaning CAP uniform people may have had.........they have in my book failed to a large extent. Randomly blendering a bunch of seperate little good ideas does not automatically equal one big good idea. If the AF won't let us have a uniform that looks like theirs, and still looks uniform and professional, then let's give up trying to have a USAF-style utility uniform. It will go over horribly with the cadets at first..........but in time, I think that will pass.

You named three parties that have input: membership, AF, and Natl Commander (correct?). That's too many people that have a say. Maybe this is why the CGAUX suffers no such problems. All uniform issues are decided by the Active Duty CG alone. They have a very hands-off common sense approach. They don't give the auxies options, because they don't give the Active Duty guys options. I understand that CAP doesn't have the same relationship with the AF, and so the AF being the sole decider/designer of CAP uniforms is not an option, but seriously..................the system is not working well.

Do the boyscouts make changes to their uniforms as often as CAP does? Are there just as many options as CAP offers?

Design a good uniform that won't need to be changed, and you won't have to make frequent changes to it. Mandate that no further non-AF mandated changes can be made for another 15+ plus years.

Maybe the problem is that CAP allows for frequent uniform changes. That gives room and license for everyone to have an opportunity to stick their personal likes and dislikes into the changes, and results in a non-uniform uniform that is constantly changing.

Can someone here cite precedent with other similar volunteer-based organizations where there exists a myraid of uniform choices and frequent changes to those choices?

Quote
It was ramrodded thru at the time (along with a bunch of other silly changes to the uniform) and *poof* appeared on the uniform.  I don't have the full remembery on this particular issue, but I seem to recall that the USAF didn't even get a chance to approve that particular change (I could be wrong).

Can bylaws and regs be made so that in the future, changes can't just be "ramrodded thru," and that the USAF DOES get a chance to approve/disapprove a particular change? From my new member standpoint, it seems to me that a lot of CAP's recent past history problem have been caused by a lack of checks and balances on member's decision-making authority when it comes to making changes to things.

You know what attracts me to the polo? It's the fact that it looks coherent on virtually everyone who I have seen wear it. No gaudy designs or look-at-me-patches, its not been subject to 101+ yearly changes, and it looks professional. It's only issue (IMHO) is that it lacks the BDU's durability, and it offers virtually no appeal to the cadets.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 28, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: foo on June 28, 2014, 08:53:41 PM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 09:00:20 PM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 09:29:18 PM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.

I'd find it difficult to enforce a rule that isn't supported by Regulations.  The Regulation specifies the Minimum Basic Uniform, anything outside that is optional.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-1
8.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer’s arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on June 28, 2014, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-1
8.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer’s arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?

Flash fire protection in case of a crash.   Based on the assumption that any kind of covering is better then bare skin.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:23:24 PM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.

I'd find it difficult to enforce a rule that isn't supported by Regulations.  The Regulation specifies the Minimum Basic Uniform, anything outside that is optional.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just Blues?   
The power is there.....commanders can set the policy.   And we would have to follow said policy or be subject to 2b action....insubordination.

Now.....it would never go so far.  No one in their right mind would push it.

But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:26:07 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-1
8.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer’s arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?
Stolen from the USAF policy.   Rational is...."we justify the flight suit because it is a "safety issue" and if we let our aircrew do too many things that show this is BS....the non-fliers will get wise and start making problems".  :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 28, 2014, 10:28:12 PM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.

I'd find it difficult to enforce a rule that isn't supported by Regulations.  The Regulation specifies the Minimum Basic Uniform, anything outside that is optional.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just Blues?   
The power is there.....commanders can set the policy.   And we would have to follow said policy or be subject to 2b action....insubordination.

Now.....it would never go so far.  No one in their right mind would push it.

But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:30:19 PM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-1
8.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer’s arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?

Flash fire protection in case of a crash.   Based on the assumption that any kind of covering is better then bare skin.

Than they should consider requiring Nomex, right?   Maybe a FlashHood? Respiratory Protection of some type...But than people will start with the Cost vs. necessity of Nomex or other requirements.

This just looks like it's an appearance of Safety...without actually being safer.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Checotah on June 28, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-1
8.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer’s arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?

Flash fire protection in case of a crash.   Based on the assumption that any kind of covering is better then bare skin.

Than they should consider requiring Nomex, right?   Maybe a FlashHood? Respiratory Protection of some type...But than people will start with the Cost vs. necessity of Nomex or other requirements.

This just looks like it's an appearance of Safety...without actually being safer.

I have to agree.  If it were truly a safety concern, Nomex flight suits would be required for all flights in CAP A/C.  As it is, the polo shirt combo may be worn, which certainly doesn't provide any protection for the arms. 

The "must be rolled down when performing flight duties" just doesn't make sense to me.  If the MP, MO, & MS all roll up their sleeves, who's going to enforce it?  This seems to me to be one of those "sounds good" (to someone, I guess), but fails in the practical day-to-day operation.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
If we were truly safety concerned....we would require flight helmets before we required NOMEX.

In a GA crash...most injuries and deaths are caused by BFT to the head then to fire.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garp on June 28, 2014, 11:17:09 PM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

agree...if members want to feel pathetic and excluded, I guess they will find a way.   I would tend to feel a lot more excluded in this organization over aircrew status than Air Force uniforms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SarDragon on June 28, 2014, 11:27:05 PM
A bunch of yelling.

First of all, it isn't necessary to yell (big colored text). That immediately turns the readers off, and places you in a defensive position. Next, the tone of your posts is aggressive and, frankly, unfriendly, further alienating the readers. As a result, the responses you get are not going to very friendly, either. If you expect serious discourse, that's the tone you need to present.

As for your general questions, here's some commentary.

Change is inevitable, and sometimes the reasons do not seem necessary or sensible. Such is life. Questioning the changes is also inevitable. Something to keep in mind is that things that have "always been that way" for you, aren't necessarily that way for the rest of us. In looking back, I don't think there's a single uniform item still in use, other than accessories or insignia, that I wore as a cadet in 1964. The only SM uniform combination remaining without significant change is the blazer uniform.

Most changes have been because the AF changed their basic uniforms, and others have come due to changes in CAP internal programs. I have endured many of them over the years, and some came and went during periods of non-participation.

Getting all snarky because you don't like a particular change does nothing for you, or the organization. The same goes for your response to folks who disagree with you. Opinions are pretty well set for most people, and yelling at them isn't going to get anyone to change theirs.

Bottom line - Lighten up, Francis!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 11:31:55 PM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

agree...if members want to feel pathetic and excluded, I guess they will find a way.   I would tend to feel a lot more excluded in this organization over aircrew status than Air Force uniforms.

Aircrew is a choice.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 12:09:47 AM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on June 29, 2014, 12:17:40 AM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.

Sure, if you think you can go a whole week with just 1 blue uniform and PT gear >:D.
After all, a cadet is just required to have one set blues, right?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garp on June 29, 2014, 01:00:53 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

agree...if members want to feel pathetic and excluded, I guess they will find a way.   I would tend to feel a lot more excluded in this organization over aircrew status than Air Force uniforms.

Aircrew is a choice.

Can't get to be a pilot without a medical...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 01:03:52 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

You "prefer" , there's a difference between "choosing" and "not having a choice".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 29, 2014, 01:22:57 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

agree...if members want to feel pathetic and excluded, I guess they will find a way.   I would tend to feel a lot more excluded in this organization over aircrew status than Air Force uniforms.

Aircrew is a choice.

Can't get to be a pilot without a medical...


Correct...but you can still be an Observer, Aerial Photographer, Mission Scanner which are other Aircrew positions.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: foo on June 29, 2014, 01:30:41 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

You "prefer" , there's a difference between "choosing" and "not having a choice".

That's obvious, but it doesn't answer the question.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 29, 2014, 01:39:09 AM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.


Nope.  An activity commander can set the UOD to something besides the MBU as long as participation is optional, and going to Encampment is optional.   You can't force a cadet to buy BDUs to attend a Squadron meeting, however.   
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 02:21:57 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

You "prefer" , there's a difference between "choosing" and "not having a choice".

That's obvious, but it doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.

Those with the option to wear whatever combo they like, have the option.  If they choose to do some mental
gymnastics about why they don't want to wear the USAF-Style uniforms, whatever, that's their choice.

Those without the choice are left unable to display their plumage in the same way that those
who can wear the USAF styles do.  In fact, they pretty much can't wear them at all to formal
functions since the blazer doesn't allow it.

So Maj Fat and Fuzzy, who is the backbone of the wing, devotes 40 hours a week to CAP,
as well as being encampment staff and devoting his 2-weeks vacation every year to an NCSA
can't wear a "real" uniform to the banquets or PiRs, while Lt Twice A Year can do so whenever he please.

Or the good major is the commander of an even on a military base, and is forced to
wear the Realtor jacket while his subordinates all wear their brightest service dress.

And before you say "it shouldn't matter", maybe not, but it does, especially to newer guys with no choice,
especially since the rules are both arbitrary, and largely (pun intended) ignored by the very leadership
charged with enforcing them.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 02:26:27 AM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want
to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.


Nope.  An activity commander can set the UOD to something besides the MBU as long as participation is optional, and going to Encampment is optional.   You can't force a cadet to buy BDUs to attend a Squadron meeting, however.

Is it?  You could stretch the point to a cadet C/CMSgt who is being told "promote or be terminated" after a year with no
progression.  At that point encampment is decidedly >not< optional.

It's an unwinnable argument in either way since the regs are clear but the practice runs counter to them and no one cares to fix it.

The reg make no allowance for the concept of "optional" vs. "non-optional" activities, we've made that logical assertion in these discussions,
but tha doesn't mean it would stand a complaint filed by a mom who actually reads the reg and can't afford BDUs. It simply and clearly says the only uniform
a cadet can be compelled to wear is the MBU, unless the other uniform(s) or items are issued by CAP.

Frankly I'm glad it never came up while I was an encampment commander, but it was discussed every year.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 02:56:52 AM
And that's my point.

We "make" cadets get BDUs for encampment and other things.....and it specifically says we can't....but we do.

We certainly can make SMs get other uniforms besides the MBU.

Not saying it is a smart thing to do so.....but the power and authority already exists.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on June 29, 2014, 03:01:26 AM
And that's my point.

We "make" cadets get BDUs for encampment and other things.....and it specifically says we can't....but we do.

We certainly can make SMs get other uniforms besides the MBU.

Not saying it is a smart thing to do so.....but the power and authority already exists.


So Pat, do you own any other CAP uniforms in addition to the MBU?

And if you do, why?  Using your logic you don't need them since nobody can force you to buy or wear them.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:07:23 AM
^ You're not reading what is being typed.

We've both agreed that seniors can be compelled to wear whatever the Commander deems as UOD.

It's only cadets that have regulatory protection from that, a protection largely ignored.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:07:33 AM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on June 29, 2014, 03:07:50 AM
For the Ongoing discussion from the new Reg


Quote from: CAPM39-1
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may
require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a
specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied
without expense to the cadet.
 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:16:52 AM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.

The verbiage in this regard has not changed, and CCs maintain the authority to set a UOD.

1.2.3.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various
climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major
part of the combinations described in this publication. The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify
the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron,
group, wing, region, and national functions.
All commanders must be mindful of the objective of
attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and
will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.


Put simply, all members must own either blues or the whites, at their choice per H/W & grooming.
So no member could refuse a UOD of either / or.

Past that, for BDUs flights suits, or even the golf shirt, a CC could set the UOD to whatever he liked,
and restrict participation to those not in compliance.  While the verbiage indicates CCs should be
sensitive to cost, the front of the paragraph spells out a power not reduced elsewhere, so a complaint on that basis
would not be sustainable.

In fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:20:14 AM
Those without the choice are left unable to display their plumage in the same way that those
who can wear the USAF styles do.  In fact, they pretty much can't wear them at all to formal
functions since the blazer doesn't allow it.

So Maj Fat and Fuzzy, who is the backbone of the wing, devotes 40 hours a week to CAP,
as well as being encampment staff and devoting his 2-weeks vacation every year to an NCSA
can't wear a "real" uniform to the banquets or PiRs, while Lt Twice A Year can do so whenever he please.

Or the good major is the commander of an even on a military base, and is forced to
wear the Realtor jacket while his subordinates all wear their brightest service dress.

And before you say "it shouldn't matter", maybe not, but it does, especially to newer guys with no choice,
especially since the rules are both arbitrary, and largely (pun intended) ignored by the very leadership
charged with enforcing them.

Quite well stated, sir.  I was hoping the new 39-1 would address this somehow, but obviously they chose not to.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:36:10 AM
If a commander would be that small-minded enough to try and get me to shell out money for an optional uniform that I neither want nor need...I'd be looking for a different squadron.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:38:18 AM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.


"The uniform of the day is BDUs or equivalent"
You show up in Gray and Whites......"Sir you are in the wrong uniform you must go home."
"You can't make me!"
"Sir you are insubordinate, you must go home."
"Make me!"
"Sir here is your 2b"

It is that simple.

You may call BS on it....but is the order "you will wear BDUs or equivalent" illegal?
If it is not....then all subordinate CAP members must follow it.
If you don't....that is insubordination....and a 2B offense.

Again.....I do think it is over stepping for someone (on both sides of the order) to take it that far.   But simply as a theoretical debate on how far does a commander's authority go.........I most certainly can order you to get other uniforms.

And that authority is the same authority that orders you to maintain as a minimum the MBU.   So right there in black and white is a CAP CC ordering you spend your money.

No where....does it say a commander can't order you to wear a specific uniform (unless you are a cadet).   And that caveat for cadets is very telling in and of itself.   It assumes that the commander has the authority to order other uniforms and specifically restricts that authority in relation to cadet.

So......again.....Your interpretation of the regulations IMHO is wrong.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:41:21 AM
If a commander would be that small-minded enough to try and get me to shell out money for an optional uniform that I neither want nor need...I'd be looking for a different squadron.
I agree.

But there is a difference between "not a good idea" and "not allowed".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:41:27 AM
Regs do not require one to own anything beyond the basic uniform.

If UOD is AF or equivalent, it does not mean golf shirt.

If they want me to have a golf shirt, they can bloody well pay for it.

I wear the G/W kit under protest because I cannot wear the AF uniform right now, and I'm not going to be one who flouts regs on that.  Even though I do not like the uniform, I wear it well within regs - clean, kept pressed and proper badging.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Checotah on June 29, 2014, 03:42:57 AM
I have read much of this post, and a few others, with some interest.  Several people point to the regs, saying this can be done or that can be enforced, when, in reality, it would not necessarily be in the best interest of the program to do that.  We have to remember we are all volunteers, and there is no Code of Military Justice backing up our rules.  Yes, we can insist upon Seniors wearing this uniform or that combination, but, at the end of the day, volunteers can vote with their feet.  If a commander insists upon enforcing a given uniform policy, and his unit does not agree, the practical outcome will likely be that he or she is standing there alone. 

For me, meeting the goals of our primary missions (ES, Cadets, & A/E) should come before the secondary issues such as requiring a specific uniform combination.  Our regulations are specific in particular circumstances, such as working with Cadets or flying on CAP missions, but there is latitude within even those to enable compliance along with some personal choice.  I will always support the unit that is working towards completion of those primary goals over those that advocate, for example, absolute uniformity of dress, or spit shine/starch in their uniforms.  I care less about how a given individual dresses, as long as he/she is compliant with the basic legal aspects, if the target missing aircraft and people on board are located in a timely fashion, and, hopefully saved.

That is not to say that I condone sloppy dress, or disregard of our regs.  I simply place a greater importance to getting the primary job done, within the established overall (National) guidelines, than concentrating upon superficial aspects.  I know there are those who will say that you can have both, but I have doubts about some of that.  Given the choice of having an excellent SAR team, able to execute in a timely and effective fashion the missions handed to us, or having a unit that looks good, but cannot execute, I choose the former.  And for those who say "Do both", I ask, given the two choices, and ONLY those two choices, which do you choose?

Sometimes it comes down to a choice.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:44:26 AM
Regs do not require one to own anything beyond the basic uniform.

If UOD is AF or equivalent, it does not mean golf shirt.

If they want me to have a golf shirt, they can bloody well pay for it.
I feel for you.

Here is the other side of that coin.   If you want to come to this training you bloody well better get a golf shirt.

It is that simple.

You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.
But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:49:54 AM
Given the choice of having an excellent SAR team, able to execute in a timely and effective fashion the missions handed to us, or having a unit that looks good, but cannot execute, I choose the former.  And for those who say "Do both", I ask, given the two choices, and ONLY those two choices, which do you choose?

Classic fools choice.

Sometimes it comes down to a choice.

Further, you perceive choices and options that don't actually exist.

The fact that you are not alone in CAP on this, and that this behavior is tolerated is a significant problem in CAP as a whole.

Proper uniform wear, as directed, is a baseline expectation of membership and participation, and is mutually exclusive from
"mission", nor is the nonsense some spout about "mission first, uniform later".

Instead of mental gymnastics to justify why "you can't tell me what to do" or "I know better" you could simply do what
you're told and save everyone the aggravation and time of the conversation.

Or vote with your feet, which in a lot of cases would be better for all parties involved.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.

But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.

This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.  I was in the ANG.  Wing king or lower authority set UOD as (usually) BDU's or blues.  I complied.  Of course, the Air Force/my state paid for most of my uniforms, at least initial BMT issue.

What if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"

If it's requiring a uniform for an activity, I can (barely) see that.  I've never been to an activity where someone got gigged for a uniform violation.  Usually it was a smattering of blues or G/W, BDU's or flight suits (pilots).  In fact, the senior squadron I was in, I never saw most of the pilots in anything BUT a flight suit, with no insignia except the leather nameplate.

But requiring an optional uniform as a constant duty uniform just to be part of the squadron?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.

Seriously?  You know better, that's an irrelevent example, and a lame excuse - CAP has regulations with just as much bite, internally, as the UCMJ, you just get
demoted, removed from authority, suspended, or terminated instead of incarcerated.  They can still enforce things to the logical Armageddon conclusion.

What if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"

Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:55:34 AM
Now I agree and to a point disagree with Eclipse.

Situational Leadership is and always has been my watchword.

I do believe that mission comes first.   But I agree with Eclipse that too often "mission comes first" is abused too much.

And it is up to leadership to keep it in check.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 03:56:18 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:58:04 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Yes.  Asked and answered.  It's no longer "optional" when directed by a CC that it be worn.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:00:40 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Yes.  Asked and answered.  It's no longer "optional" when directed by a CC that it be worn.

If so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 04:02:57 AM
If so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.

And you'd be well within your rights to do that, though things may not be any different there.

In the case of the CAWG Nomex FDU requirement, that was a wing-level mandate of what many consider to be
an "optional" uniform.  You could file complaints, and certainly hold them accountable for proper
supplements, but once the "i's and t's" are covered, it's $185 FDU or you don't fly.

The same goes for their CAL Tran suits.  If you want to be on a GT, apparently you have to have one.

An "optional" uniform mandated by a CC, in this case the Wing CC.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:09:07 AM
You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.

But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.

This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.  I was in the ANG.  Wing king or lower authority set UOD as (usually) BDU's or blues.  I complied.  Of course, the Air Force/my state paid for most of my uniforms, at least initial BMT issue.

A)  Yep this is not the USAF, RES or ANG....it is CAP.   We got CAPR 35-3 to enforce such things.
B)  Actually you did pay for all your uniforms....the USAF just gave you a clothing allowance for it up front.

Quote
What if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"
It is a legal order and if I refused to follow it I could be 2b'ed.

But that the thing.......you are confusing "is it a good idea" with "is it allowed".    If I ordered you to jump up and down on one leg....it is a legal order.  Now if you refused it.....and I tried to 2b you for it.  It would get to the wing king who would toss out the 2b and would have a pointed discussion with me over being an FPOC.  But I do have the authority  to make such an order.....and in the right circumstances you would get the 2b and I would get a commendation.

Quote
If it's requiring a uniform for an activity, I can (barely) see that.  I've never been to an activity where someone got gigged for a uniform violation.  Usually it was a smattering of blues or G/W, BDU's or flight suits (pilots).  In fact, the senior squadron I was in, I never saw most of the pilots in anything BUT a flight suit, with no insignia except the leather nameplate.

But requiring an optional uniform as a constant duty uniform just to be part of the squadron?
So you have never been in a unit where they have made the order.....cool.  But it still does not mean that the commanders did not have the authority to order you in to an "optional" uniform.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:10:35 AM
For the record, I do not advocate overt or covert disobedience to ANY CAP regulations.

If I did, instead of wearing the G/W, I'd just wear my AF Blues and say "to Hades with the H/W requirements."

But if I did that, I couldn't live with myself, and at the end of the day that's the one I have to live with the most.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:17:11 AM
But I do have the authority  to make such an order.....and in the right circumstances you would get the 2b and I would get a commendation.

A commendation?  Indeed?

No, I would not get a 2B.  Over something that trivial, I would be gone voluntarily (and probably long before it got to that point).

In fact, I have never personally known anyone facing such an action to stay in CAP.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never known it personally.  The ones I have heard of the member just has quit.

Which is probably a good thing.  Our gears grind enough as it is.

To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:18:04 AM
If so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.

And you'd be well within your rights to do that, though things may not be any different there.

In the case of the CAWG Nomex FDU requirement, that was a wing-level mandate of what many consider to be
an "optional" uniform.  You could file complaints, and certainly hold them accountable for proper
supplements, but once the "i's and t's" are covered, it's $185 FDU or you don't fly.

The same goes for their CAL Tran suits.  If you want to be on a GT, apparently you have to have one.

An "optional" uniform mandated by a CC, in this case the Wing CC.
Actually it was a PCR mandate for a while....but other then that.  I agree. 
You are always free to a) Complain up the chain of command.  b)  File an IG complaint.  c)  Go home.

I would also like to point out the term "optional" here as it is sometime missed used.

Patch X is optional according to 39-1.   That means from the members point of view.......unless other levels of command have not said anything about it......you may or may not wear it.....your choice.

Sometimes.....commanders may make an optional item mandatory.......like for instance wing patches on BDUs and BBDUs.
Also sometimes......commanders may make an optional item forbidden to wear on uniforms.....like the beret from NBB.

So....to summarize....commanders do have control over "optional" items.   The only limit to that power is in regards to cadets and the basic guide lines of keeping down costs and not being a butt to the volunteers.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:19:24 AM
...and not being a butt to the volunteers.

Which a truly good commander, in my opinion, would know where to draw the line on anyway.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:20:39 AM
To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
Oh I have.....knowingly, with malice a fore thought.  But that is a discussion for another thread.   >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:21:24 AM
To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
Oh I have.....knowingly, with malice a fore thought.  But that is a discussion for another thread.   >:D

Bad, bad boy. >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:22:13 AM
That's

"Bad!  Bad NCO!" with the required wrist slap.  :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:23:43 AM
That's

"Bad!  Bad NCO!" with the required wrist slap.  :)

As you say, Master Sergeant.

(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.607995209845637166&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:24:13 AM
yep...that's the one!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 04:25:12 AM
yep...that's the one!

 :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 29, 2014, 05:06:18 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

That's certainly within the authority of a commander.

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Para. 1.2.3.3
The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

The MBU is not appropriate in all circumstances. You wouldn't send a ground team to the field wearing service uniform, would you? Commanders can and do prescribe uniforms to meet uniformity and training/mission requirements.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: ♠SARKID♠ on June 29, 2014, 07:42:28 AM
Aside from the proofreading errors, I'm really annoyed with the whole v-neck requirement. In their zeal to align with the USAF, they forgot to account for the fact that all of their open collar dress uniforms can be closed with a tie. The polo doesn't get that treatment. Some of us are of the more grizzly persuasion when it comes to body hair and frankly, you don't want us wearing a polo with a v-neck.

-1 on v-necks
+1 on the black fleece getting tapes
-1 on dropping the NASAR patch
+1 on adding drawings instead of pictures
-10 on overall readability
+10 on adding tactical pants to polo combo
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 29, 2014, 01:10:40 PM
It's pretty simple.   You must obtain the MBU to participate in meetings.   You learn pretty quickly that to participate in other, optional activities that they require other uniforms that you must be willing to pay for.  If you aren't willing to pay for that uniform, then you are effectively choosing not to participate in that activity. 

If a Cadet is not willing to get some BDUs - SOMEHOW - by the time they are in desperate need of an Encampment, then perhaps other priorities are at play.  In any event, if I were a commander and had that situation, I'd be making it MY job to find some BDUs somewhere for the cadet.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: rmutchler on June 29, 2014, 01:32:44 PM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Speaking as a Squadron Commander myself, there are times it is necessary to mandate a UOD.  I had an event where I required G/W, Polo or Blues because of what we were doing.  I actually said in the event announcement:

UOD: Cadets - Blues (Service Coat optional); Seniors - Blues (Service Coat optional), White Aviator Shirt with Grey Slacks/Skirt, or Navy Polo.  If you do not have a CAP uniform please wear nice slacks and shirt.  Any uniform other than the UOD's listed are not authorized for this activity
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on June 29, 2014, 03:01:59 PM
Why so much complaints about "buying a non-mandated uniform?"

Next time you render the Federal Income Tax, you can include that uniform cost as part of your deductions! The only members that may not be able to do so are those that belong to the PR Wing, as not all Puerto Ricans pay Federal taxes.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Next time you render the Federal Income Tax, you can include that uniform cost as part of your deductions! The only members that may not be able to do so are those that belong to the PR Wing, as not all Puerto Ricans pay Federal taxes.

There are a lot of members, especially younger senior members, who are not able to deduct CAP expenses.

Unless you itemize, and for most people that means owning a home, you can't deduct the expenses because
they fall under the standard deduction.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 29, 2014, 06:34:43 PM
The MBU is not appropriate in all circumstances. You wouldn't send a ground team to the field wearing service uniform, would you? Commanders can and do prescribe uniforms to meet uniformity and training/mission requirements.

For what you are saying - operational requirements - I haven't got a problem with that at all.

What I was getting at would be a (admittedly unlikely) hypothetical situation where a commander only liked the golf shirt/grey slacks combo simply out of personal preference and made that the only uniform allowed for squadron activities.

Or even further out in left field...requiring green NOMEX flight suits for everyone, even if they're not aircrew, because s/he likes the look of it?

Speaking as a Squadron Commander myself, there are times it is necessary to mandate a UOD.  I had an event where I required G/W, Polo or Blues because of what we were doing.  I actually said in the event announcement:

UOD: Cadets - Blues (Service Coat optional); Seniors - Blues (Service Coat optional), White Aviator Shirt with Grey Slacks/Skirt, or Navy Polo.  If you do not have a CAP uniform please wear nice slacks and shirt.  Any uniform other than the UOD's listed are not authorized for this activity

And that's not what I was really getting at.  I've been to many, many, many CAP events where the commander has required a given UOD - with variants, as you did.

What I was talking about was a commander requiring one uniform for all squadron members simply because s/he liked it, not for operational reasons, and barring wear of all others.  Again, an admittedly out-of-left-field hypothetical scenario.

There are a lot of members, especially younger senior members, who are not able to deduct CAP expenses.

Unless you itemize, and for most people that means owning a home, you can't deduct the expenses because
they fall under the standard deduction.

Correct, sir.  I don't think I was able to deduct CAP expenses until I got married; while I was single I lived in an apartment.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Nikos on June 29, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

I think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Slim on June 29, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

The brown t shirts originally authorized for BDUs are no longer available as none of the services are using them.  OTOH, black t shirts are readily available in packs of three for about $10 at your local walmart.

Quote
I think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".

Actually, it's called a BDU cap.  If you call it what it is, confusion is eliminated.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: THRAWN on June 29, 2014, 08:00:52 PM
What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

The brown t shirts originally authorized for BDUs are no longer available as none of the services are using them.  OTOH, black t shirts are readily available in packs of three for about $10 at your local walmart.

Quote
I think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".

Actually, it's called a BDU cap.  If you call it what it is, confusion is eliminated.

Do you mean like if you call it a patrol cap? That is the proper name for that piece of equipment.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 30, 2014, 12:19:11 AM
I think I am going to add the obsession with the reverse flag to my x-files list. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: foo on June 30, 2014, 12:28:47 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

You "prefer" , there's a difference between "choosing" and "not having a choice".

That's obvious, but it doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.

Those with the option to wear whatever combo they like, have the option.  If they choose to do some mental
gymnastics about why they don't want to wear the USAF-Style uniforms, whatever, that's their choice.

No, it doesn't.

All you did was reiterate why some individuals feel like second-class members because they're butting up against a minimum requirement prohibiting them from something they want to do. And, clearly, the only "mental gymnastics" going on here is on the part of folks fussing over not meeting those requirements. That's one thing, and maybe it's understandable to an extent. But I reject the idea that wearing the corporate uniforms inherently renders one "second class" in this civilian organization.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 12:48:15 AM
That's one thing, and maybe it's understandable to an extent. But I reject the idea that wearing the corporate uniforms inherently renders one "second class" in this civilian paramilitary organization.

FTFY

How nice you feel that way, especially considering you have a choice.

Are the uniforms equal in configuration and only different from a color perspective?

Do they present a different public image even though there is no internal difference in duty, authority, or service?

Is one combination so preferred by many over the other that they are willing to risk breaking regulations and their integrity
instead of just wearing the other "equal" uniform?

Your answer is in those answers.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SunDog on June 30, 2014, 01:18:06 AM
I have a generic polo shirt, if one of you guys want it? It's blue, at least, and has a nifty little pocket.  PM me and I'll mail it to you for free. It's an XL, by the way.

Add gray slacks and black shoes, and you'll never have another uniform issue, unless you like wing conferences and similiar events?  Come over to the dark side - you could take some pictures of the senior porkers wearing AF blues, and put 'em up on social media. Act like you were just posting pics of the event, let the pics tell the story?  Can't imagine anyone will care, though. . .unless some USAF type gets his knickers in a knot . . .say. . . .no, that would be wrong. . .

I got a pic of a fellow MP with flowing gray locks and a beard, striding out in a USAF flight suit. . .
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 30, 2014, 04:38:12 AM
How nice you feel that way, especially considering you have a choice.

Again, well-stated, sir.

I have been in CAP off-and-on for 20 years now.

In all those years, I have never heard anyone, in any squadron I have served in, actually say they like the G/W and blazer setup.

Usually, the following reasons are given for wearing it.

1. It's cheap.
2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardised; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.
3. I have to, since I'm out of height/weight/grooming regulations to wear the AF blue uniform.
4. I don't want to look "military."
5. I don't want to bother with customs and courtesies (which is a fictive reason anyway).

None of those reasons connote "pride" or "esprit de corps," as I see it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:45:33 AM
And the circle is complete.

So.....what's the solution guys?

You are now the National Commander......make the call......and really deal with the fall out.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 30, 2014, 04:49:27 AM
And the circle is complete.

So.....what's the solution guys?

You are now the National Commander......make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gCNeJmLAsBo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gCNeJmLAsBo#)

Sorry...couldn't resist.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:51:53 AM
I'm sorry guys...but we keep comming back to this.

Nothing has changed....the same three less then optimal choices.

a) Ditch the USAF uniforms
b) Ditch the out of weight and grooming people
c) Keep the status quo.


Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:58:21 AM
....make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

Which is what the National CC should do, make the call.

Go to the USAF and discuss the height/weight and actually request, formally, that all members be in the same uniform.
Instead of conjecture about what might be refused, or "they told us 'no' over coffee", etc., submit the request and
insure it is formally addressed and responded to.

Depending on their response, then it will either be "all in blue" or "all in gray".  Lots of people will be unhappy, but lots
of people are already unhappy, it's time they at least knew who was making them unhappy.

The process should be 100% open, and done publicly, including all requests and responses from all parties,
this is, after all, a volunteer paramilitary organization which depends on the benevolence of its members for
its existence, not some intelligence hearings about Ukraine.  Nothing about the uniforms should be a "secret".

Then, once CAP has a "uniform", whatever it is, this conversation never have has to occur again.

If the USAF came out publicly and simply said "This situation is out of CAP's hands, we choose to
perpetuate the status quo and there will be no change to a single uniform as long as it is our call...".
then at least everyone would know where the blame lies, and the situation could be addressed
from a different vector (i.e. DOD, Congress, whatever).

Until then, because no one wants to be blamed, or risk being sad or making someone else sad, it
all lies in a dark corner and everyone can privately blame everyone else, while never actually doing anything.

There is, of course, the possibility that the BOG doesn't >want< a single uniform, for whatever reason,
and if that's the case, so be it, that's their call to make, but then they should own it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:06:53 AM
And the mission continues.

Do you see my point?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on June 30, 2014, 05:15:12 AM
I'm sorry guys...but we keep comming back to this.

Nothing has changed....the same three less then optimal choices.

a) Ditch the USAF uniforms
b) Ditch the out of weight and grooming people
c) Keep the status quo.

Either way someone is pissed.  Honestly IMHO the org has done a good job of having some type of alternate uniform for all of membership.  Whether it be the AF style for those who can wear them or the corp style for those who can't due to some reason or another or those who chose to.  The status quo while not the best COA seems to be the best currently for the org. 

Now do I have a choice yes I do.  I have the choice to wear either corp or AF style, I own different sets of both.  I choose to wear the Af style as I work primarily directly with cadets and feel that the AF style is a common ground.  I wear it properly and make sure that it's within reg when I do.  I also have the corp I wear from time to time as well for whatever reason that may be, but again I wear within regs. 

Now if I was the NHQ/CC some of the changes I would make in regards to uniforms would be:

1) Find a middle ground somewhere between corp and AF style all around

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

3) Require weigh-ins for all members above 18yo who desire to wear the AF style uniform until the implementation of a unified uniform.  Also members would be required to sign a form stating that they will comply with uniform policies or face some degree of personnel action. 

4) Any wing desiring specialized uniforms (ground teams, etc) would be required to submit with solid justification a supplement for approval.  Justification needs to be a state statute, county ordinance, etc for the implementation of said uniforms.  Supplements would be required to be reviewed every two years or upon changes to 39-1. 

5) CAPM39-1 would undergo review every 2 years or as needed to maintain currency. 

Would these be popular, probably not but would help to bring a more firm identity to the org and allow for more enforcement of the publication.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:17:08 AM
And the mission continues.

Do you see my point?

I see the point you're trying to make, and I don't agree.

CAP, Inc., may well have been able to sustain itself using it's current stance on this, and a lot of other issues,
in the past when the numbers were greater, the military resources more abundant, and volunteerism in general
was a higher priority in American's lives - minor annoyances like uniform issues are easier to ignore or
discount when you're getting a high ROI on your time and effort otherwise.

What I've seen in the last 5 years, especially, is significant program shrinkage, a lot of the hard-chargers
saying they have had enough (for whatever reason), and those people not being replaced, which
just accelerates the process to its critical mass.

Some strong leadership at all levels, coupled with hard choices that cut the dead weight could turn that
around quickly, otherwise, doing what's "always been done" won't fix things, nor reverse the demonstrable trends.

At this point, anything which causes a grind or a pinch point to a member's experience which can reasonably
be ironed out, should be, because every one of those pinch points is costing time, money, and most certainly
people, and CAP has not of it to spare.

Pretending things aren't a problem, hoping they go away, or focusing, as CAP does, on "today's shiny"
just perpetuates the problem, it won't fix it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:21:04 AM
1) Find a middle ground somewhere between corp and AF style all around

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

3) Require weigh-ins for all members above 18yo who desire to wear the AF style uniform until the implementation of a unified uniform.  Also members would be required to sign a form stating that they will comply with uniform policies or face some degree of personnel action. 

4) Any wing desiring specialized uniforms (ground teams, etc) would be required to submit with solid justification a supplement for approval.  Justification needs to be a state statute, county ordinance, etc for the implementation of said uniforms.  Supplements would be required to be reviewed every two years or upon changes to 39-1. 

5) CAPM39-1 would undergo review every 2 years or as needed to maintain currency. 

Would these be popular, probably not but would help to bring a more firm identity to the org and allow for more enforcement of the publication.

Here's a great set of taskings, especially #3.

The fact that NHQ couldn't even pull the trigger on the suggestion of simple compliance with the uniform regulations,
let alone a mandate, is an indication where the fortitude it.

I have said, and will continue to assert, if everyone was actually held to the same standard, especially the
leadership charged with enforcing the standards, thing would change quickly, because all of a sudden
it would be "their problem, too.".

The current unwritten policy of "look the other way" literally punishes members for their integrity.

Seriously?  Who is CAP afraid of making mad?  People who ignore these very simple, baseline rules?
Why should we even care if people who "can't be bothered to read the regs, or choose to ignore them"
are sad when they are told to "knock it off"?

So there's my "call" - mandatory weigh-ins for everyone in blues, with notations in eservices.
90 days for the weigh-in, 6 months for compliance.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Devil Doc on June 30, 2014, 11:56:16 AM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.
The Air Force and US Gov doesn't pay for photosensitive lenses either, at least not the times I went to the med group for my eye appointment.

The government pays for my Transition Lenses. The VA has gave me 2 sets in the past year or so. I lost the first set. My Glasses are prescription I would Assume. My glasses are for things Contacts cannot fix, with my TBI I have sensitivity to light.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Devil Doc on June 30, 2014, 12:27:07 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4ccee42b49e2ae1f04010000-400-300/george-zimmer-mens-wearhouse-ceo.jpg)

Yep, I will. I am proud to have the Flag on my Uniform. 'Merica!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: GroundHawg on June 30, 2014, 02:53:58 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.
The Air Force and US Gov doesn't pay for photosensitive lenses either, at least not the times I went to the med group for my eye appointment.

The government pays for my Transition Lenses. The VA has gave me 2 sets in the past year or so. I lost the first set. My Glasses are prescription I would Assume. My glasses are for things Contacts cannot fix, with my TBI I have sensitivity to light.

When on active duty, I was issued prescription Oakley sunglasses with polarized lenses and regular frame glasses. When I was at the sweet PX at Balad once, a new new LT told me to take off my sunglasses because I was indoors. I politely informed him I would do so, but they were Rx and I could not see well without them. He said OK, milled around a little while, then came back over to me and demanded to see them because he thought I was lying to him. I handed them over, he realized the level of astigmatism, and apologized and walked away.

The VA got me a set of the transition lenses that I ended up hating, so they ordered me another paid of regulars and a pair of Rx sunglasses as well. I have extreme light sensitivity due to TBI, and am usually the DB wearing sunglasses and a hat indoors.

I will wear my Oakley's, in formation or otherwise.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: DoubleSecret on June 30, 2014, 03:04:35 PM
When on active duty, I was issued prescription Oakley sunglasses with polarized lenses and regular frame glasses. When I was at the sweet PX at Balad once, a new new LT told me to take off my sunglasses because I was indoors. I politely informed him I would do so, but they were Rx and I could not see well without them. He said OK, milled around a little while, then came back over to me and demanded to see them because he thought I was lying to him. I handed them over, he realized the level of astigmatism, and apologized and walked away.

He straight-up said he thought you were lying to him?  I hope that was a profuse apology.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on June 30, 2014, 03:05:07 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen,
   The OFFICIAL word on the flag issue is:

"Our National Uniform Committee made this recommendation and it was approved by the CSAG. CAP’s USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions and since the Air Force does not wear the flag on their field uniform while serving stateside, we decided to follow the same policy."

My commander asked using the "Ask the National Commander" function and that was the reply.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Devil Doc on June 30, 2014, 03:14:04 PM
The VA can order Presciption Sunglasses? Really WTF!! I told them that the transitions do not get dark enough, they said to buy polarized glasses and put them over them. I hate wearing glasses, i dont like wearing sunglasses much either. If it gets to bright outside, i wear my $5 Aviators.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Bobble on June 30, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
In all those years, I have never heard anyone, in any squadron I have served in, actually say they like the G/W and blazer setup.

Oh well, I actually do like the the G/W's.  Yes, I do have have two full sets of SDB's (Class B's, as we can now call them).  Yes, I do have two full sets of BDU's.  Yes, I do have the appropriate outerwear/accoutrements for both uniforms.  Yes, I do meet the H/W requirements to wear them and did (up until a month ago) meet the grooming requirements to wear them.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with the G/W's as far as I'm concerned, and when I do wear them (I'm going pretty much 50%/50% G/W's/Polo's these days since I'm not working directly with cadets at this point), I wear them with pride.  I've read through all your posts (on this thread and others) to try and understand why you have such a problem with this issue, but I'm just not getting it.  You can BM/PG all you want, it is the way it is because it is the way the USAF wants it this way, whether we as individuals like it or not, whether it makes you feel like a "2nd-class citizen" or not.  It's time to ruck up and drive on.

But speaking of getting our panties all a-twist, what is it with the whole "Men will wear underpants." thing? -

4.2.3.10
4.2.5.9
4.2.6.9
5.2.1.9.1
5.2.2.8.1
6.4.6.1.1.1
8.2.8

I'm have to assume either 1) That since this re-write is based on AFI-362903 as the template, USAF personnel have a real problem with remembering or wanting to put their underpants on in the morning, or 2) It's a HMRS trickle-down (yikes) issue, what with "going commando" and all that.  Heck, I actually went back to the top of the document, certain that I could find the phrase somewhere within 1.1.1.

Also, nice to see that the Manual finally clears up the Blue Beret wear issue, only to open a whole 'nother can-o-worms with the 9.2.4 orange ball cap "may" goat-rope.  What, the fancy patch AND tab isn't sufficient to differentiate Hawk Mountain attendees from mere mortals?  Jeez, enough already.

Truthfully though, hat tip and/or applause to those that worked on this, great job overall IMHO.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on June 30, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
In all those years, I have never heard anyone, in any squadron I have served in, actually say they like the G/W and blazer setup.

But speaking of getting our panties all a-twist, what is it with the whole "Men will wear underpants." thing? -

Shhhhhh.....probably one of the most easily violated and hardest to enforce regs ever.

(redacted to remove TMI)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:14:24 PM
Ewww...

FYI - gouging your eyes out does >not< remove mental images.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 30, 2014, 04:17:14 PM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, 26 June 2014, Page 116
CHARLES L. CARR, JR.
Major General, CAP
Commander

It seems to me that a decision about the uniform WAS made. Some/many members may not like it. Other decisions discussed here on this forum would cause similar reactions from the other side(s). I'm not sure CAP will ever please every member, but maybe a better solution can be reached.

That said, we just got a new uniform manual and a new National Commander. We should at least give our leaders a chance to succeed (or fail); see how things progress from here. Some members here are so discouraged, pessimistic or just cynical, that no matter what happens, the CAP glass is always "half empty".

I'm all for seeking solutions to improve CAP. But some of the comments here do a disservice to our organization. If you're not willing to be part of the solution, please step aside and leave room for those who are. We need leaders who can positively impact our organization; leaders who can help us accomplish our mission. We can do without the constant negativity. Solutions require action, not constant complaining and criticism.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on June 30, 2014, 04:18:47 PM

Now if I was the NHQ/CC some of the changes I would make in regards to uniforms would be:

[ . . .]
3) Require weigh-ins for all members above 18yo who desire to wear the AF style uniform until the implementation of a unified uniform.  Also members would be required to sign a form stating that they will comply with uniform policies or face some degree of personnel action.    [. . .]
Would these be popular, probably not but would help to bring a more firm identity to the org and allow for more enforcement of the publication.

As you may recall, one of the NUC's first drafts did have language about weigh-ins, but after  overwhelmingly negative reactions from the membership, it was removed from the final version.

(The language was included after a long discussion right here on CT, BTW.)

Of course, commander's do not need specific NHQ's permission to conduct weigh-ins anymore than they need written authorization to conduct uniform inspections or a gear check for ground team members.

One way to look at it, I suppose, is that NHQ did not feel the need to micromanage how commanders comply with their responsibility to ensure that members wear CAP uniforms correctly.

Bottom line, commanders may conduct weigh ins if they want to, or use any other reasonable method to enforce the regulations.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on June 30, 2014, 04:26:03 PM



Also, nice to see that the Manual finally clears up the Blue Beret wear issue, only to open a whole 'nother can-o-worms with the 9.2.4 orange ball cap "may" goat-rope.  What, the fancy patch AND tab isn't sufficient to differentiate Hawk Mountain attendees from mere mortals?  Jeez, enough already.

Yeah nevermind different colored pistol belts, whistle chains, ascots, HMRS-specific hats that are different from the other orange had said the mere mortals have to wear, no tshirts under BDU shirts when wearing an ascot, etc.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:28:47 PM
"Overwhelmingly negative reactions" to "following the regs".

Why.

Does.

Anyone.

Care?

That's cow-towing to people who are...disobeying the rules to the detriment of the organization.

Unit CCs clearly need Command Imperative, as well as repercussions to enforce this most basic rule.
When they can look around at their leadership, as well as photos posted by the NHQ PAO
and routinely see members, including their leaders, disregarding these rules, why should they care?

Bottom line, either the rule should go, or be enforced.

Typically CAP wants to have it both ways.

Pretend there are standards, but not enforce them, and then it doesn't like the dissent this engenders.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: sarmed1 on June 30, 2014, 04:32:59 PM
What amazes me about the weight issue is,despite an effort to "follow the footsteps of the AFI", CAP perpetuated the height/weight chart rather than USAF updated thinking of "a reasonable military appearance while in uniform" or however the AFI words it.....
That simple change seemingly would solve most peoples angst over grey vs blue......with the exception of small section of the membership it would be a "choice" rather than the only choice.

MK
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: sarmed1 on June 30, 2014, 04:43:05 PM



Also, nice to see that the Manual finally clears up the Blue Beret wear issue, only to open a whole 'nother can-o-worms with the 9.2.4 orange ball cap "may" goat-rope.  What, the fancy patch AND tab isn't sufficient to differentiate Hawk Mountain attendees from mere mortals?  Jeez, enough already.

Yeah nevermind different colored pistol belts, whistle chains, ascots, HMRS-specific hats that are different from the other orange had said the mere mortals have to wear, no tshirts under BDU shirts when wearing an ascot, etc.

I have yet to run into anyone there that truely wants to wear an ascot for any period of time longer than they absolutely have to, and certainly not long enough to justify not needing to wear a t shirt.  Especially in the summer time "scaves" are the first thing ordered off as the temp begins to rise, usually followed shortly by BDU blouse.....

MK
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on June 30, 2014, 04:46:34 PM
"Unit CCs clearly need Command Imperative, as well as repercussions to enforce this most basic rule.
When they can look around at their leadership, as well as photos posted by the NHQ PAO
and routinely see members, including their leaders, disregarding these rules, why should they care?

Bottom line, either the rule should go, or be enforced.

Typically CAP wants to have it both ways.

Pretend there are standards, but not enforce them, and then it doesn't like the dissent this engenders.

So, Bob, you've been a commander. 

Exactly how many weigh-ins did you conduct?

As a group commander, how exactly did you work with your squadron commanders to ensure that they enforced the regulation?

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:47:05 PM
Eclipse.

The rule exists...the standard exists.

What the overwhelming outrage was about.......is that REQUIRING periodic weigh ins would just add more BS to what a squadron commander already has to do.

As for oversight and consequences.....I agree.....add a line to the SUI guidelines that requires a uniform inspection of say 20% of the squadron and see that the unit commander is maintaining standards.

Beyond that......even if we required weigh ins....how would it be tracked?

Making more rules is not going to make commanders follow the rules they are already over looking.

It is the same falacy that we full under with regards to safety compliance.   We now require training and tracking....but we are not really more safe and we can now argue that it affects are readiness as there is no way to fix non-compliance on the fly.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on June 30, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
As you may recall, one of the NUC's first drafts did have language about weigh-ins, but after  overwhelmingly negative reactions from the membership, it was removed from the final version.

Out of curiosity, what were the arguments/negative reactions that caused its removal?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:53:41 PM
So, Bob, you've been a commander. 

Exactly how many weigh-ins did you conduct?

As a group commander, how exactly did you work with your squadron commanders to ensure that they enforced the regulation?

Interestingly, none were needed.

It was made clear that I didn't tolerate uniform issues (I can't use the term without invoking Godwin, but the term got stuck to me),
and it was also made clear to my CCs, and the staff of the encampments when I was CC of those.

I'm sure plenty happened outside my sight, but if I saw something in my AOR, I had the discrete conversation either directly
or allowed the Unit CC to have the chat.

There were also far too many times where I made note of something but the person was outside my AOR, so beyond
a chat with a CC, etc., I didn't have much choice but to FIMO, making note not to include them in anything I had control over.

It magically "worked itself out".

"Uncomfortable conversations" were something I got pretty used to, and apparently was also my legacy, as my successors
seem to have continued the practice.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:54:33 PM
Beyond that......even if we required weigh ins....how would it be tracked?

There's already a field in eServices, but it is self-filled by the member.

Just lock the field and make it CC-only.

Done.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on June 30, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
Ewww...

FYI - gouging your eyes out does >not< remove mental images.

I am laughing too hard to talk right now! bahahahahaha!!!!!!!

You're welcome.  >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:00:24 PM
As you may recall, one of the NUC's first drafts did have language about weigh-ins, but after  overwhelmingly negative reactions from the membership, it was removed from the final version.

Out of curiosity, what were the arguments/negative reactions that caused its removal?
Just more BS that we would have to track.

At some point we would have to produce a report that said we conducted weigh ins on the entire squadron....so that means everyone...even the guys you only see once in a while.

The squadron would have to get an "official" scale or you will have people arguing about "but my scale at home says 182.5 not the 183 here at the squadron".   

If it takes say 5 minutes to do each weigh in.....that's a whole hour hour gone for your typical squadron....not to include all the time it takes to get your entire squadron there for the weigh in.

Then what if you make weight in January......are you good for the whole period (six months, year, monthly)? 

What happens if you make weight at your squadron and then go to encampment and someone decides to weigh in everyone?   What do you do with your staff who then are now 1/4 pound over and they don't have corporate uniforms?

Who makes the call?   How much is mission accomplishment more important then regulation adherence?

Lots of cans of worms with that.....and IMHO not really worth the heart ache.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on June 30, 2014, 05:03:07 PM
Either way someone is pissed.  Honestly IMHO the org has done a good job of having some type of alternate uniform for all of membership. 

I'm throwing the BS flag on this.

G/W are not uniform. A few weeks ago I saw 12 people wearing them and 13 shades of medium gray.

Those of us stuck with the G/W all but got down on our knees and begged for a gray hat. That alone would have gone a long way toward feeling included. No hat for you!

Taking the Flight Cap from the Blue flight uniform. No hat for you!

Obesity caused by an underlying medical condition has been treated as a disability in some courts. I don't think the alternate uniform options are a reasonable accommodation.

The release of the new 39-1 would seem to reset the 60 day clock on a discrimination complaint.


Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on June 30, 2014, 05:10:47 PM
Out of curiosity, what were the arguments/negative reactions that caused its removal?

Privacy / Dignity ("I don't want to have to stand in some line so a CAP officer can weigh me and write down the results that go God knows where)
Fear that commanders would hound folks and only selectively enforce the weigh-in requirments
Additional record-keeping burders on the unit
Loss of training time for the unit
Lack of trust in accepting a member's word
Lot's of dicussion about how the scales would be standardized / calibrated - possibility of being stigmatized by a scale that was only 98% accurate
Expense to units to purchase an acceptable scale ("Unfunded mandates.")
Local unit members had little faith that higher headquarters staffers would be required to meet the same mandate


and probably some others that I can't recall just now.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:13:44 PM
As you may recall, one of the NUC's first drafts did have language about weigh-ins, but after  overwhelmingly negative reactions from the membership, it was removed from the final version.

Out of curiosity, what were the arguments/negative reactions that caused its removal?
Just more BS that we would have to track.

At some point we would have to produce a report that said we conducted weigh ins on the entire squadron....so that means everyone...even the guys you only see once in a while.

The squadron would have to get an "official" scale or you will have people arguing about "but my scale at home says 182.5 not the 183 here at the squadron".   

If it takes say 5 minutes to do each weigh in.....that's a whole hour hour gone for your typical squadron....not to include all the time it takes to get your entire squadron there for the weigh in.

Then what if you make weight in January......are you good for the whole period (six months, year, monthly)? 

What happens if you make weight at your squadron and then go to encampment and someone decides to weigh in everyone?   What do you do with your staff who then are now 1/4 pound over and they don't have corporate uniforms?

Who makes the call?   How much is mission accomplishment more important then regulation adherence?

Lots of cans of worms with that.....and IMHO not really worth the heart ache.

Limit the weigh-ins to once a quarter or once a year, or for that matter...just once. ("Just Once" would fix 90% of the problems immediately).

Like safety compliance, if you're not weighed-in, you don't play until you are.

All pilots have medicals - they can use the weight from their Dr., an allowance you can make for everyone.

And I throw the flag on the "official scale" - just like our compass use, +/5 is fine, and let the "one guy" who wants to
file a complaint do it.  No one even reasonably passable is going to have an issue with +/- 5.

As a reminder, this isn't in place of the mission, it's part of it, and already a mandate of being a CC, yet laregly ignored.

Which then renders >all< the regs potentially "optional" at the whim of the person enforcing it, and frankly,
that's the situation we find ourselves in today, and that costs us time, money, member initiative, and actual members,
both experienced and especially new, when people get either fed up or don't' want to be involved with an organization
that can't get its membership to fall in line with even basic rules, but are somehow expected to save live and mold youth.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:14:29 PM
Privacy / Dignity ("I don't want to have to stand in some line so a CAP officer can weigh me and write down the results that go God knows where)

The don't wear the blues.

Done.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:17:56 PM
How about this:

Anyone accepting command, or a staff position at the wing level or higher is required to substantiate compliance.
This insures the people who make policy, enforce the rules, and present the example to the rank and file
are in proper uniform, but leaves the average member out of the discussion, at least initially.

They do a background check on most members who get eagles, a weigh-in shouldn't be a big deal.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on June 30, 2014, 05:18:23 PM
Interestingly, none were needed.

It was made clear that I didn't tolerate uniform issues (I can't use the term without invoking Godwin, but the term got stuck to me),
and it was also made clear to my CCs, and the staff of the encampments when I was CC of those.

[. . .]

"Uncomfortable conversations" were something I got pretty used to, and apparently was also my legacy, as my successors
seem to have continued the practice.

Good for you, sir.

Sounds like the membership was correct, weigh ins are not necessary.  All it takes is commanders willing to have uncomfortable conversations.

If commanders won't do that, no regulation is going to help.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:24:34 PM
So....the solution is to add to our already over burdened work load.

Now wing has to deal with a bunch of "the squadron scale lies" complaints.

We reduce further our readiness because our mission crews are "out of date" on their weigh ins.

Finally......to a particular point.....all of our regulations are optional with regard to accomplishing the mission.   It is why we have leaders.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on June 30, 2014, 05:26:41 PM
Out of curiosity, what were the arguments/negative reactions that caused its removal?

Privacy / Dignity ("I don't want to have to stand in some line so a CAP officer can weigh me and write down the results that go God knows where)
Fear that commanders would hound folks and only selectively enforce the weigh-in requirments
Additional record-keeping burders on the unit
Loss of training time for the unit
Lack of trust in accepting a member's word
Lot's of dicussion about how the scales would be standardized / calibrated - possibility of being stigmatized by a scale that was only 98% accurate
Expense to units to purchase an acceptable scale ("Unfunded mandates.")
Local unit members had little faith that higher headquarters staffers would be required to meet the same mandate


and probably some others that I can't recall just now.

I'm one of the one's that have little faith higher headquarters staffers would be required to meet the same mandate.  I've looked up people's ops quals and their own input information shows them out of regs, but here they come in Green Flightsuits or Woodland BDUs
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:28:37 PM
Except that Commanders at all levels "won't do it".

And NHQ posts the photos as evidence.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:30:51 PM
Finally......to a particular point.....all of our regulations are optional with regard to accomplishing the mission.   It is why we have leaders.

100% BS.

100%.

No, they are not, and the attitude that some are "optional" is a HUGE problem in CAP.

CAP does not train its leaders consistently or in some cases even at all, at a level to allow
them to filter the regs.

They are there to define the organization and culture, not be ignored.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on June 30, 2014, 05:32:07 PM
Either way someone is pissed.  Honestly IMHO the org has done a good job of having some type of alternate uniform for all of membership. 
Second BS flag on this. We had one that was showing broad scale acceptance, even by some of the folk who met the H/W standards. It got unceremoniously yanked.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:36:07 PM
Finally......to a particular point.....all of our regulations are optional with regard to accomplishing the mission.   It is why we have leaders.

100% BS.

100%.

No, they are not, and the attitude that some are "optional" is a HUGE problem in CAP.

CAP does not train its leaders consistently or in some cases even at all, at a level to allow
them to filter the regs.

They are there to define the organization and culture, not be ignored.
Not ignored.
I ask you.....that there is NO situation where you would violate a regulation?

Even to save a life?
Even to make sure that the mission got accomplished?
Even to save the reputation of the organization?

Absolutism is not leadership.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:38:54 PM
Give me a break.

This discussion, nor 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of CAP's universe never rises to that level.

Ever.

Discuss the issue and don't try to inject nonsense.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:43:08 PM
Either way someone is pissed.  Honestly IMHO the org has done a good job of having some type of alternate uniform for all of membership. 
Second BS flag on this. We had one that was showing broad scale acceptance, even by some of the folk who met the H/W standards. It got unceremoniously yanked.
Well.....I would question the "showing broad scare acceptance" but I agree with you that the CSU was a step in the right direction to fix the heart burn that people have over the G/W uniform.

I agree with abdsp51 that the organization is doing a good job with at bad situation.   There is still a lot of work that needs to be done.  The current NUC's job was not to go that far.  Their primary job was to match up out standards with USAF standards and to match up the corporate uniform standards with the USAF uniform standards.  They were also supposed to fix all the discrepancies and unclear wording in the old manual and to fix the illustrations.

As far as that goes...BZ to the NUC. 

Now it is the time for you who think we need to farther....to write up your white papers....make your suggestions and forward them up your chain of command.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
Give me a break.

This discussion, nor 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of CAP's universe never rises to that level.

Ever.

Discuss the issue and don't try to inject nonsense.
No...sorry can't and won't.

I teach leadership.  That's what I do in CAP and in my old life as an NCO.

One of the lessons in leadership is the importance of rules and regulations.  What they are there for....why we have them.....and ultimately when you should and how you should go about violating them.

If our leaders are not trained up to that level.....then we need to get training or provide the oversight that they need to get our mission done.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JeffDG on June 30, 2014, 05:48:00 PM
Not ignored.
I ask you.....that there is NO situation where you would violate a regulation?

Even to save a life?
Even to make sure that the mission got accomplished?
Even to save the reputation of the organization?

Absolutism is not leadership.

Yeah...I'd like to see the ORM that was done by ever member ever awarded CAP's highest decoration, the Silver Medal of Valor.  They all did an ORM analysis before commuting "a conspicuously heroic act at considerable risk to their own life", right?

Or should we staple a 2B for violating regulations to the CAPF120 for the SMV?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 05:48:04 PM
If our leaders are not trained up to that level.....then we need to get training or provide the oversight that they need to get our mission done.

Agreed.  When does that start?

After ignoring / not enforcing simple, baseline regulations?

Should we change the motto to "Do As I Say, Not As I Do?"
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 30, 2014, 05:51:09 PM
What amazes me about the weight issue is,despite an effort to "follow the footsteps of the AFI", CAP perpetuated the height/weight chart rather than USAF updated thinking of "a reasonable military appearance while in uniform" or however the AFI words it.....
That simple change seemingly would solve most peoples angst over grey vs blue......with the exception of small section of the membership it would be a "choice" rather than the only choice.

MK

I see by your signature line you are in the AFRES.  I was in the ANG.  I remember not a few people in my unit (including some senior NCO's) who would not have met the CAP criteria for H/W to wear the blue uniform.  Of course, this was years ago, and I believe the standards have changed from what some AF people have said here on CT.  Can you corroborate this?

I'm throwing the BS flag on this.

G/W are not uniform. A few weeks ago I saw 12 people wearing them and 13 shades of medium gray.

Those of us stuck with the G/W all but got down on our knees and begged for a gray hat. That alone would have gone a long way toward feeling included. No hat for you!

Taking the Flight Cap from the Blue flight uniform. No hat for you!

Obesity caused by an underlying medical condition has been treated as a disability in some courts. I don't think the alternate uniform options are a reasonable accommodation.

The release of the new 39-1 would seem to reset the 60 day clock on a discrimination complaint.

No, they are not "uniform," on that you are correct.  Ideally the colours should match our shoulder marks/nameplate.  However, I have seen "grey" trousers that run the gamut from the grey that would closely match "German grey" (current Bundesheer or past Wehrmacht) to an almost-RAF grey/blue.

The regulation is written so wide-open that I once considered acquiring a pair of East German Air Force trousers, which are grey but have thin blue piping.

(http://gowenmilitaria.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/TRO6.jpg)

However, I did not do so...again, because I know it would have been wrong, at least to me.

I would not ever have expected the AF to allow the blue flight cap on the "mixing civilian and military" items grounds.  However, that argument is nullified by the fact that the Air Force blue tie is allowed with the long-sleeved white aviator shirt.

I would have been quite satisfied with a grey flight cap (matching the colour of our shoulder marks/nameplate), piped in AF blue (for all ranks), with the standard flight cap device.

However much I agree with you on these points, I have to say that invoking the disability option on this issue is very, very probably a non-starter.  I know from experience.  I filed an ADA complaint against a former employer some years ago, and after said employer lawyered-up with a slick shyster (sorry, Colonel Lee) and submitting a written statement that basically did everything but call me a straight-out liar it went in the CS file on the hallowed grounds of "employment-at-will."  I doubt very much it would carry any weight in this context.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:01:26 PM
The USAF no longer has H/W standards per say. 

The new PT standards have a BMI component.

But here is the rub with with me on that.    An Airman who has failed his PT test for what ever reason is still required to wear his uniform.

Yes in most circumstances that Airman is on his way out.....but there are lots of exceptions to that rule.

Currently the USAF is getting really hard in limiting those exceptions....but that is always cyclical.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 06:02:12 PM
^ Which is a point that has been made on a number of occasions, that the USAF standards,
as practiced, are actually less rigid then CAP's.   There are likely any number of Airman serving
right now who would be out of CAP's standards, but go to work every day in ABUs or blues.

The same goes even moreso to for the Air Guard and Reserve.

Yes, many of these people are on terminal leave, fat boy programs, or waivered because of some short-term disability,
that doesn't change the image or the fact of the matter.

With that said, I don't personally care >what< we wear, just that it is uniform in both appearance and compliance.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:05:28 PM
If our leaders are not trained up to that level.....then we need to get training or provide the oversight that they need to get our mission done.

Agreed.  When does that start?

After ignoring / not enforcing simple, baseline regulations?

Should we change the motto to "Do As I Say, Not As I Do?"
I'm doing the training right now.....as I have always done.   I'm a PD NCO.   

And again.....it is not ignoring regulations....I have never said to simply ignore regulations.
Nor have I ever said "Do as I say, not as I do" (unless it applies to the situation/standard).

I am simply pointing out in some cases regulations are in fact optional.

There is a time, place and way to violate regulations when the need arises.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 06:07:52 PM
But we're not talking about >you< (or me) for that matter, are we?

Together we will save the world, and then destroy each other in the final battle, what about the
actual organizational leadership?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
On the subject of just the G/Ws.

I agree that the ONE change I would make to them today IIWG....would be to find a supplier for a standard gray slacks and skirt and a set of tactical style pants and make that the only ones that could be worn.

That ONE change would fix a lot of heart burn for those who want the G/Ws to be more uniform.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: sardak on June 30, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
Quote
That's cow-towing to people who are...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3BL-RhcIoR0/SrP2fPxy7rI/AAAAAAAAAA4/ae-4aL65OuA/s1600/Metallica-CowTowing.JPG)     (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Kowtow.jpg/151px-Kowtow.jpg)

cow-towing (http://grammargraveyard.blogspot.com/2009/09/cow-towing.html) vs kowtowing (http://i-stand-corrected.blogspot.com/2009/10/so-sorry-im-too-busy-towing-my-cow.html)

Mike
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:16:02 PM
But we're not talking about >you< (or me) for that matter, are we?

Together we will save the world, and then destroy each other in the final battle, what about the
actual organizational leadership?
I can't fix the world.
I can work on my little part of it and move on.

I will fight anyone who wants to try to make my life harder....hence why I hate the idea of mandatory weigh ins.  Not necessary at my level.   Just like when you were boss you policed your AOR.  That is all we can ask of any leader.

Making more rules does not guarantee better compliance and enforcement.

I have always said that you want people to follow the rules....then it must come from above.
The CAP/CC on down must set the example and expect their subordinates to do the same.

That's what I do at my level.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 06:22:51 PM
I have always said that you want people to follow the rules....then it must come from above.
The CAP/CC on down must set the example and expect their subordinates to do the same.

That's what I do at my level.

Agreed - but this discussion is not about "your level".  Honestly, is that literally the NCO mentality?
"Not my problem."?  Just because it might make your life "harder" doesn't mean it wouldn't make your
Commander's life easier.

We're talking about this on an organizational scale, and at that level, because of inconsistent training
and lack of command imperative, enforcement is going to be an issue until HEADCAP says "knock it off"
and means it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on June 30, 2014, 06:24:59 PM
and probably some others that I can't recall just now.

Thanks.  Was curious as to the justification  I have no intention of debating or otherwise discussing them as the decision was already made. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:29:49 PM
I have always said that you want people to follow the rules....then it must come from above.
The CAP/CC on down must set the example and expect their subordinates to do the same.

That's what I do at my level.

Agreed - but this discussion is not about "your level".  Honestly, is that literally the NCO mentality?
"Not my problem."?  Just because it might make your life "harder" doesn't mean it wouldn't make your
Commander's life easier.

We're talking about this on an organizational scale, and at that level, because of inconsistent training
and lack of command imperative, enforcement is going to be an issue until HEADCAP says "knock it off"
and means it.
I'll ignore the NCO snark.

But you are right......about enforcement is the issue.....but you are mistaking regulation with enforcement.   More regs (in this case mandatory weigh ins) is not going increase compliance.   Only oversight will do that.

NHQ makes sure that region meets the regs, region watches the wings, wings the group and group the units.

That means they have to get out of their chairs and go and see what is going on.

Take the Command Master Chief insignia or the smokey bear hats.....if higher head quarters was visiting these encampments....then they could nip that BS in the bud.  But as usual they don't get found out until they show up of Face Book.

More mandatory work at the unit level does not replace wing/group staff visiting the units and having those hard conversations with the commanders involved.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 30, 2014, 06:30:27 PM
The same goes even moreso to for the Air Guard and Reserve.

I suppose a very weak and spurious argument could be made in the instance of Guard personnel that "my state has its own standards, and until/unless I'm brought on FAD that's all I have to worry about."
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JeffDG on June 30, 2014, 06:36:27 PM
I'm just waiting for Eclipse to tell me whether, if he were a commander, would he would staple a 2B to every SMV award that came across his desk.

Because, it's a clear violation of CAP safety regulations to risk one's own life, so they should be outta here.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:51:25 PM
LOL
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 06:52:51 PM
^ That's useful.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:55:49 PM
^ That's useful.
No...that's the point.  ;D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: ZigZag911 on June 30, 2014, 07:02:28 PM
I'm just waiting for Eclipse to tell me whether, if he were a commander, would he would staple a 2B to every SMV award that came across his desk.

Because, it's a clear violation of CAP safety regulations to risk one's own life, so they should be outta here.

Safety = Operational Risk Management -- does not mean that one avoids risk, simply that we try to minimize it as much as humanly possible.

If you simply must pic on Eclipse, please do it about something less serious!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 30, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
I'm just waiting for Eclipse to tell me whether, if he were a commander, would he would staple a 2B to every SMV award that came across his desk.

Because, it's a clear violation of CAP safety regulations to risk one's own life, so they should be outta here.

Safety = Operational Risk Management -- does not mean that one avoids risk, simply that we try to minimize it as much as humanly possible.

If you simply must pic on Eclipse, please do it about something less serious!


+1.   I was about to say the same thing.   

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 30, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
And how is it that every thread NOT about uniforms becomes a uniform thread, but threads ABOUT uniforms become something else?


<pushes the "Back On Topic" button>

I'm glad that I at least get to wear my brown BDU undershirts a while longer.  I strongly prefer them to black.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on June 30, 2014, 07:09:55 PM
I'm just waiting for Eclipse to tell me whether, if he were a commander, would he would staple a 2B to every SMV award that came across his desk.

Because, it's a clear violation of CAP safety regulations to risk one's own life, so they should be outta here.

Safety = Operational Risk Management -- does not mean that one avoids risk, simply that we try to minimize it as much as humanly possible.

If you simply must pic on Eclipse, please do it about something less serious!
Ecl
This feud has been going on for a while now. It's not picking on Eclipse, really. It's more of a difference of opinion. Eclipse has some very good points, which Lord Monar wants him to defend with facts, which usually happens, but not in the way LM would like.

I try to stay out of it, collateral damage and whatnot. I just grab a bowl of popcorn and watch blood pressures rise.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JeffDG on June 30, 2014, 07:19:03 PM
I'm just waiting for Eclipse to tell me whether, if he were a commander, would he would staple a 2B to every SMV award that came across his desk.

Because, it's a clear violation of CAP safety regulations to risk one's own life, so they should be outta here.

Safety = Operational Risk Management -- does not mean that one avoids risk, simply that we try to minimize it as much as humanly possible.

If you simply must pic on Eclipse, please do it about something less serious!

As I said, we need to see evidence that they went through a risk assessment before undertaking heroic actions at the risk to their lives, otherwise it's a 2B for them.

I'm more picking on the concept that NHQ must regulate ever aspect of every activity, and leave commanders and other leaders with zero discretion.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SunDog on June 30, 2014, 07:32:40 PM
Regs that are enforceable (or enforced) tend to be followed, more or less.  Those that can't be (or aren't) enforced, you are free to ignore, depending on your mind-set and point of view. It doesn't matter how things should be; that's just how they are, really, in the real world. 

I stopped and faced the music on the flightline when no one was there, as retreat sounded. A little corny, but it felt right to me.  Wouldn't have bothered me if someone else had been there and kept walking, though. . .

I blew off the "sortie" rule routinely, when I had reason to land and stop the prop.  No way for anyone to enforce it, and it didn't matter to me if it showed as one or two sorties in WMIRS. I often went straight to the questions on "safety" training, and so lied about reviewing the material.  You could excuse me by saying I tested out. But I just didn't care, knowing it was nonsense.

if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".  If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.  If your personal integrity requires you to be in H/W limits, that's cool. If the bowling ball disguised as a Wing Commander has a diffrent point of view, let it go, Louie. . .the boss(es) don't care. . .
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 07:39:52 PM
I'm more picking on the concept that NHQ must regulate ever aspect of every activity, and leave commanders and other leaders with zero discretion.

Which is fine, except in the situation we're actually discussing, CAP commanders, on the whole (or at least the average), have been shown
to abdicate that responsibility.  When that happens, NHQ needs to intervene.

NHQ has historically shown that it is not the least bit shy about command imperative for things it believes are "important" -
usually related to some perceived risk of liability.  ICLs, required training and reporting, remedial training, are all rolled out
quickly in those cases.

So it's not a stretch to infer that NHQ, in fact, does not believe the issue of adhering to 39-1 as "important" enough to
actually do anything about requiring compliance, which is fine, I suppose, except it's somewhat disingenuous,
for a paramilitary organization with a military service that espouses core values and mentor youth.

Ask the average cadet how they feel about the appearance of the average senior member, or how much credibility
a senior member wearing two service coast sewn together has in regards to their guidance and training about cadet uniforms.

These things don't exist in a vacuum.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 07:41:33 PM
Sundog's post shows exactly the vector many members take as they realize how many of the things
published as "regulations" are treated as "suggestions".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JeffDG on June 30, 2014, 07:42:36 PM
I'm more picking on the concept that NHQ must regulate ever aspect of every activity, and leave commanders and other leaders with zero discretion.

Which is fine, except in the situation we're actually discussing, CAP commanders, on the whole (or at least the average), have been shown
to abdicate that responsibility.  When that happens, NHQ needs to intervene.

No.  There is no need for a national solution to what is a local problem.  You said it yourself, when you were a commander, you were able to deal with the issue, with no changes required to the regulations whatsoever.  So, by your example, there's nothing requiring a regulatory change wrong.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: JoeTomasone on June 30, 2014, 07:48:23 PM

if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".  If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.


I don't lay the blame for uniform violations at NHQ's feet.   That's completely in the hands of the unit commanders who actually SEE the personnel in question, and I'll include Group and Wing Commanders.    THEY are the ones who will enforce regulations - or not.   In my experience, most will not, because they are afraid that a member that they hold accountable will quit.    That attitude may save numbers, but it degrades integrity, and lowers the common denominator to which everyone will rise or fall. 


Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: DoubleSecret on June 30, 2014, 07:51:14 PM
if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".  If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.  If your personal integrity requires you to be in H/W limits, that's cool. If the bowling ball disguised as a Wing Commander has a diffrent point of view, let it go, Louie. . .the boss(es) don't care. . .

I've had people in my chain tell me "go ahead, get blues, no one's going to check."  Not happening until I make the cut.  I'd know.  Perhaps more importantly, the cadets would know.  I forfeit any moral authority to enforce standards if I'm knowingly doing it in an unauthorized uniform.

Some wear eagles and think differently.  That's between them and their consciences.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 07:52:50 PM
I agree to a certain extent - the authority already exists and needs no further strengthening...

...assuming you're even aware of it.  How many members, even commanders, have actually read 39-1?
How many conversations have we had here correcting the notion that the golf shirt is the MBU?

The real problem is the "You can't, I won't, you can't make me..." mentality of a lot of members.
That is generally >only< corrected by legalistic verbiage in various regs to the tune of "you will really really do 'x".

So no, no further authority is needed, but what >is< needed is something that reluctant CCs
can point to and say "I have no choice."

Whether that is HEADCAP saying "Do it, do it now." Or It being pushed through the chain with meaningful pressure.

As it stands today, the combination of apathy, reticence, and ignorance insures things will never change,
while leaving those who comply as a matter of integrity sometimes feeling as if their effort is wasted, so why
shold they look "different"?  (or follow AOBD directions, or complete for properly, etc., etc., etc.).
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 30, 2014, 08:18:40 PM
If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.  If your personal integrity requires you to be in H/W limits, that's cool. If the bowling ball disguised as a Wing Commander has a diffrent point of view, let it go, Louie. . .the boss(es) don't care. . .

Partial agreement.

The AF doesn't really notice much that we do, except for when it involves a major scandal, like a National Commander gone bad.

If they were to really drop the hammer on H/W regs, it would force them to look at themselves and admit that not all Air Force, AFRES, or ANG people are as svelte as they should be.

They certainly don't take a lot of notice of the State Defence Forces that have Air Wings and wear the USAF uniform (and, believe me, they could, through the State Adjutant General).  They sure don't look distinctive in "low light/at-a-distance."  You MIGHT have state collar brass or a different-coloured nameplate, but that's it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM

if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".  If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.


I don't lay the blame for uniform violations at NHQ's feet.   That's completely in the hands of the unit commanders who actually SEE the personnel in question, and I'll include Group and Wing Commanders.    THEY are the ones who will enforce regulations - or not.   In my experience, most will not, because they are afraid that a member that they hold accountable will quit.    That attitude may save numbers, but it degrades integrity, and lowers the common denominator to which everyone will rise or fall.

Exactly.  When I served as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, each attendee was sent a copy of the CAPM 39-1 in advance for them to consult and with the following instructions:

1) wear the uniform that you will be wearing to the CCRSC to our local squadron and have the cadets inspect you :) ;

2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.

3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

4) bring a set of g/w,  the blazer combo or a nice set of civilian attire because there is an inspection on the first morning of the CCRSC and if you are not meeting the standards, you will be asked to change into the appropriate attire.

For the event, a protocol officer is appointed who goes over the uniform wear in the informal evening meeting prior to classroom activities that begin the next morning.  The protocol officer conducts the inspection and available prior to the college for any questions/assistance as well as during the college for questions/assistance.

When your folks know what is expected and what won't be accepted, they will perform appropriately.  The commander of the unit (whatever level) or the activity director sets the tone.  As John Maxwell observes, "Everything rises and fall with leadership."
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on June 30, 2014, 09:19:51 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on June 30, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.  If your personal integrity requires you to be in H/W limits, that's cool. If the bowling ball disguised as a Wing Commander has a diffrent point of view, let it go, Louie. . .the boss(es) don't care. . .

Partial agreement.

The AF doesn't really notice much that we do, except for when it involves a major scandal, like a National Commander gone bad.

If they were to really drop the hammer on H/W regs, it would force them to look at themselves and admit that not all Air Force, AFRES, or ANG people are as svelte as they should be.

The Air Force have been actively working for several years to get the force fit and in shape, and have implemented multiple measures to accomplish that, to include incorporating more physical fitness training and kicking out those who, after many efforts, can't pass their physical fitness test. It's still work in progress, but it's much more better now than it was when I joined 18 years ago.

They certainly don't take a lot of notice of the State Defence Forces that have Air Wings and wear the USAF uniform (and, believe me, they could, through the State Adjutant General).  They sure don't look distinctive in "low light/at-a-distance."  You MIGHT have state collar brass or a different-coloured nameplate, but that's it.

The "State Defense Forces" are part of the militia of a State and are under the direction of the Governor of that State. We, on the other hand, are just civilians. We have been granted the privilege to wear an equivalent Air Force uniform, as long as we meet certain standards. It's not a right.

Military members earned the right to wear uniforms and can continue to wear them until they're no longer in the military; whether the decision to leave is theirs or whether they're forced out because of not meeting fitness standards.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 09:32:09 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?
Sure....save the money.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 10:05:38 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?

Arajca....we are talking about one event on an active USAF base.   This is also the practice of several RSCs as well as NSC.  No ribbons on shirts/blouses.  One certainly can wear their ribbons on the g/w uniform at their local squadron or at Wing/Region/National events or conferences.  They can wear them on their USAF-style uniform....but on an active USAF base which is hosting a training event, we are endeavoring to follow their culture.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 10:12:41 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?

Another interesting and apropos comment.

There are those who would assert that officers do not wear their decorations on the blues shirt when worn without a jacket.

So a CAP NCO, concentrating on the care and feeding of the other NCOs in the mirror, he can wear all his decs "whenever",
but a CAP Maj, running a Group to the fullest extent of CAP's expectations, he never gets to where them anywhere, right?

But the whites and blues are equal, right?  No class differential?

Right.

but on an active USAF base which is hosting a training event, we are endeavoring to follow their culture.

Perhaps more time spent developing CAP's culture and less time worrying about anyone else's is in order. Especially since CAP seems to be
the only one in on the "conversation".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 10:56:39 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:10:06 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.
And your point?  Since (by you fiat) more then 1/2 of our members don't meet H/W and Grooming standards we should NOT model our culture after out parent organization?

Sorry.....you are being inconsistent there. 

Listen.......in the long run, I actually agree with you.   I think CAP and the USAF needs to get together and hash out this problem and get one uniform.   I really do.

In the mean time.....we make do with what we got....and still try to build a central core culture.....even if it's got two uniforms.

If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

You are now arguing both sides of the debate.

And once again....let's not bring the NCO thing into this argument....because if you read the White Paper....and knew how to read between the lines......I think you will find that in the future there may be more NCO's then you expect.   But that's another thread.  :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:20:27 PM
The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 11:40:25 PM
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

Nope.

Establishing yourself is not the same as abandoning your parents.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SunDog on July 01, 2014, 01:52:11 AM
The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

Maybe not seperate, but get some more distance? I know many folks value the USAF uniform connection very highly, and it's quite important to them.  But as a personal opinion, personal preference, I just don't see the need for CAP to wear their uniform.  Or adhere so closely to their organizational structure.

Geez, they ain't actually, literally, family - they just have some management oversight. Our rank and file have little (or no) contact with USAF. We don't interoperate much at all.

Maybe grandfather the USAF uniforms for the die-hards, whip up some decent corporate combos, and loose the ghastly GWs? Those look like a crossing guard or tour guide's outfit.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on July 01, 2014, 03:05:46 AM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.
The Air Force and US Gov doesn't pay for photosensitive lenses either, at least not the times I went to the med group for my eye appointment.

The government pays for my Transition Lenses. The VA has gave me 2 sets in the past year or so. I lost the first set. My Glasses are prescription I would Assume. My glasses are for things Contacts cannot fix, with my TBI I have sensitivity to light.

I don't get it. It seems that most of the complaints regarding prohibition on sunglasses or transition lenses in formation are coming from Seniors.

Where are all the daylight formations happening, with Seniors in them, that makes this a problem?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on July 01, 2014, 03:07:56 AM
On the subject of just the G/Ws.

I agree that the ONE change I would make to them today IIWG....would be to find a supplier for a standard gray slacks and skirt and a set of tactical style pants and make that the only ones that could be worn.

That ONE change would fix a lot of heart burn for those who want the G/Ws to be more uniform.

Needs a non-gooberish hat/cap/cover/lid of some sort, too.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 01, 2014, 05:24:34 AM
if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".

"Porker"?

Sundog's post shows exactly the vector many members take as they realize how many of the things published as "regulations" are treated as "suggestions".

That's the lesson I've learned.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: a2capt on July 01, 2014, 06:16:28 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 01, 2014, 06:18:46 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 01, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 01, 2014, 08:46:14 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.

So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 01, 2014, 08:54:55 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
If the shoe fits......:)    Your outrage is a day late and dollar short.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 01, 2014, 09:24:15 AM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
If the shoe fits......:)    Your outrage is a day late and dollar short.

The fact that you're apparently okay with this says a lot about the complete dysfunction in CAP.  But remember this discussion the next time you want to lecture anybody on Respect.

But, hey, glad to see I'm a "day late" on the entire concept of respect.

Reminds me of a quote from the movie, Blade Runner...

""Skin jobs". That's what Bryant called Replicants. In history books he's the kind of cop who used to call black men (N-Word)."
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: jeders on July 01, 2014, 01:09:27 PM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
If the shoe fits......:)    Your outrage is a day late and dollar short.

The fact that you're apparently okay with this says a lot about the complete dysfunction in CAP. 

Actually, it says that we don't all have to get our panties in a twist over meaningless tripe. That you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, however, says a great deal about you.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 03:04:06 PM
+1 the poster is on self-inflicted terminal leave, and he's using terminology to press people's buttons as a going away present.

Regardless, the term >doesn't< rise to the comparison.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SunDog on July 01, 2014, 03:41:50 PM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
If the shoe fits......:)    Your outrage is a day late and dollar short.

The fact that you're apparently okay with this says a lot about the complete dysfunction in CAP.  But remember this discussion the next time you want to lecture anybody on Respect.

But, hey, glad to see I'm a "day late" on the entire concept of respect.

Reminds me of a quote from the movie, Blade Runner...

""Skin jobs". That's what Bryant called Replicants. In history books he's the kind of cop who used to call black men (N-Word)."
Dude, take a breath - I didn't call any individual participating here (or anyone in particular, anywhere) a porker.  Did not apply the term specifically to anyone; wouldn't do so, as it may hurt their feelings.  Not all that slim myself.  A generic tag, see?

Your outrage is out of proportion, to my mind. But I could be wrong. Sometimes I feel like the PC Posse think they own the language. . .give me a pass this time, and substitute "obese" or "overweight" where I wrote "porker".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 01, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?
If the shoe fits......:)    Your outrage is a day late and dollar short.

The fact that you're apparently okay with this says a lot about the complete dysfunction in CAP. 

Actually, it says that we don't all have to get our panties in a twist over meaningless tripe. That you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, however, says a great deal about you.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CoreValues_2AB4D48FE86A8.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CoreValues_2AB4D48FE86A8.pdf)

Page 4, Paragraph 1, 2nd sentence.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Private Investigator on July 01, 2014, 05:48:11 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.1.4. Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ inch above the CAP Crest or service badge.

So on the Corporate semi-formal uniform, can that be any miniature medal?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 01, 2014, 05:58:48 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.1.4. Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ inch above the CAP Crest or service badge.

So on the Corporate semi-formal uniform, can that be any miniature medal?

Yep... any miniature CAP medal. The way it's worded, though, it could also include military decorations as well.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
^ Not without conflicting with verbiage elsewhere which does not allow military medals
on corporate uniforms.

I wear my highest dec, though yes, it could be any of the CAP mini medals.
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 01, 2014, 06:33:22 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.1.4. Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ inch above the CAP Crest or service badge.

So on the Corporate semi-formal uniform, can that be any miniature medal?

Yep... any miniature CAP medal. The way it's worded, though, it could also include military decorations as well.

No, it doesn't. While CAPM 39-1 states the following regarding medals on corporate semi-formal uniform:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Para. 4.2.2.4
Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ above the CAP Crest or service badge. (Chaplain badge will be worn ½ inch above the medal.)

The paragraph on U.S. awards states the following:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Para. 11.2.1.1[/quote
US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn.

There's no reference about corporate uniforms regarding military decorations.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 06:39:27 PM
There's no reference about corporate uniforms regarding military decorations.

Right, which means they aren't authorized on >any< of them.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: jeders on July 01, 2014, 06:41:35 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.1.4. Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ inch above the CAP Crest or service badge.

So on the Corporate semi-formal uniform, can that be any miniature medal?

I usually carry 2 or 3 mini medals and swap them out throughout the evening/event to see if anyone notices.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Wow, I like that - good idea.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 01, 2014, 07:11:27 PM

There's no reference about corporate uniforms regarding military decorations.

Right, which means they aren't authorized on >any< of them.

That's what I said.

No, it doesn't...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.

<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf)

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 01, 2014, 08:01:32 PM
A commander or activity director can required that no ribbons be worn for uniformity purposes, since ribbons are optional on the service uniform. This has nothing to do with officer vs. NCO or AF-style vs. corporate-style uniforms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 01, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.


<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf)

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.

If the culture is not to wear the ribbons, why award them?  Just award certificates which people can put on their wall, or stuff in a drawer, as they prefer. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 01, 2014, 08:20:41 PM
In the USAF?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:14:07 PM
CAP.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 01, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
Because you can wear them if not otherwise restricted
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 09:41:12 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.


<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf)

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.

If the culture is not to wear the ribbons, why award them?  Just award certificates which people can put on their wall, or stuff in a drawer, as they prefer.

Araja...the restriction of ribbons that I was referring to applies to specific professional development training events -- RSC, CCRSC, and NSC.  As mentioned before, feel free to wear ribbons whenever/wherever provided the commander or activity director directs other wise.  For example, I am attending the CAWG Encampment.  Ribbons are not to be worn by cadets and seniors until the last evening's party and the following day's graduation.  That has been the practice since I began attending encampments in 1997.   I can't recall the last time I wore ribbons on my service shirt or white aviator shirt.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 01, 2014, 10:05:30 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.


<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf)

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.

If the culture is not to wear the ribbons, why award them?  Just award certificates which people can put on their wall, or stuff in a drawer, as they prefer.

Araja...the restriction of ribbons that I was referring to applies to specific professional development training events -- RSC, CCRSC, and NSC.  As mentioned before, feel free to wear ribbons whenever/wherever provided the commander or activity director directs other wise.  For example, I am attending the CAWG Encampment.  Ribbons are not to be worn by cadets and seniors until the last evening's party and the following day's graduation.  That has been the practice since I began attending encampments in 1997.   I can't recall the last time I wore ribbons on my service shirt or white aviator shirt.

Which gets back to my point, why bother with CAP ribbons, if they're not worn at major training events, and people don't wear them on the service shirts, because its not the culture, why waste the money on them and the time awarding them.  Just issue certificates (which also won't be worn).  They can show up in E-services, with the option to print.  If people don't want to bother, they don't, if they want to display them they can print them out and hang them, just like the SLS, CLC, and other certificates.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on July 01, 2014, 10:32:07 PM
There are times and places when awards and decorations are appropriate, and times and places when they are less so.

Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an approprate venue for bling.

Similarly, field or flying duty is rarely an appropriate venue for ribbons, medals, etc.

Reasonable minds can and do differ on where to draw the line, but many members believe that routine "office type" duty is not an appropriate venue for maximum blingage.  It is a time to get the job done.  That is my personal preference, but I certainly understand that others do not share my view.

And from time to time commanders or activity directors may set a UoD policy to includes or excludes optional items like ribbons. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:37:53 PM
Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an appropriate venue for bling.

For those who actually have the option...

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 10:38:37 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

On the contrary,  I am not making the AF tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirt into a CAP tradition.  I am following a custom that CAP follows at their RSC and NSC and have for years.  I was a student at NSC 2001 and on staff 2006, 2007, 2008 -- no ribbon policy.  The CCRSC/RSC has had a no ribbon policy as well. 

The following is not an AF pamphlet but comes from CAP: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf)

Read page 78 (Attachment 15 - first paragraph on Daily Classroom Wear) from another CAP publication:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/RSC_Directors_Handbook_20110331_FC903955AA92A.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/RSC_Directors_Handbook_20110331_FC903955AA92A.pdf)

As for the CAWG Encampment, simply following the directives set forth by the Encampment Commanders -- which I participated in since 1997. 

While Eclipse may state that the tradition has no place in CAP ... it has been in place since I joined in 1996 and has been practiced at every CCRSC I have attended as student, staff or director going back to 1997.  And NSC as mentioned above.

So this custom is not something new.

I see senior members wear their ribbons all the time at a SLS/CLC/UCC, Wing/Region/National Conferences, Squadron meetings on their blue service shirt or white aviator -- just not at CCRSC/RSC and NSC.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: THRAWN on July 01, 2014, 11:31:59 PM
Chaplain, the custom may not be new but it does come from the USAF.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 11:49:28 PM
Chaplain, the custom may not be new but it does come from the USAF.

Thanks, Thrawn.   In context, my response was to Arajca who wrote: "you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition".  The point I was endeavoring to make was simply that this is not something that I am initiating.   I am not making the AF tradition into a CAP tradition.   Rather, I am following the custom/protocol/tradition that CAP has been following for years -- which they as part of the USAF family is practicing.   I am taking my cues from CAP on a custom which has its roots in the USAF.   Nothing new.  When you stop and consider, where are most CCRSCs/RSCs and even NSC conducted???  An USAF Base (or now a Joint Military Base).   

I think that this has played out and time to move on.  Back to the topic at hand and the concerns.  We have a new CAPM 39-1...get familiar with it, put it to use and wear the uniform properly.
 

 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on July 02, 2014, 01:15:32 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, man, don't mess with the zipper suited sun gods.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:46:32 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, man, don't mess with the zipper suited sun gods.
I always thought it laundry day.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on July 02, 2014, 04:08:11 AM
There are times and places when awards and decorations are appropriate, and times and places when they are less so.

Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an approprate venue for bling.

Similarly, field or flying duty is rarely an appropriate venue for ribbons, medals, etc.

Reasonable minds can and do differ on where to draw the line, but many members believe that routine "office type" duty is not an appropriate venue for maximum blingage.  It is a time to get the job done.  That is my personal preference, but I certainly understand that others do not share my view.

And from time to time commanders or activity directors may set a UoD policy to includes or excludes optional items like ribbons.

I never gave it any thought. I started going "wings only, no ribbons" when I was a cadet officer. The only time I've ever worn ribbons on a shirt since 1970 or so was at encampment graduations and the like.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:18:22 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:24:21 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
I don't remember that tradition.

In fact IIRC the AFI state that you must be on flight status (or missile/space status) to wear them.

If that tradition does exists I make the following points.

a)  Traditions don't have to internally consistent.
b)  The reasoning behind the traditions are different for each tradition.  (Flight wings are mandatory....but specialty badges are optional)(although on the E-side the tradition is NO THEY ARE NOT).

So...trying to make sense of the various traditions is really a lost cause.  We often don't know where they came from, why we do them.  We just do.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:42:34 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.

This "tradition" literally sets up a situation whereby 1/2 the adult members would never wear their decorations.

So even if there was some "Good Reason®" to do it in the USAF, whatever that is doesn't apply in CAP,
since it's the only way 1/2 the adult membership could ever wear their decs. 

Here again is a place CAP wants to have it both ways.  "What's the big deal?"  "Trying to show off?"  Etc., etc.
when you make an issue of it while facing someone with a chest full or jelly beans telling others they shouldn't
be so excited about ribbons.  Time and again we hear how dec and plumage are the only way CAP can publicly
acknowledge accomplishments, and then the "tradition" is "don't bother".

Seriously?

Why does Capt Twiceayear get to stand in front of his peers and exhibit his 2-line rack of bare minimums and
Col WingCC, who did 3 tours in WWDS gets grief for wearing his?

I would hazard, and I believe it's been said here, that this started because USAF NCOs felt that the officers were showing off
their large racks compared to many in the enlisted ranks.

Again, assuming that is true.  It doesn't apply, even a little, to CAP.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:45:41 AM
Okay...but IMHO your reason to reject the USAF tradition is not enough to off set the benefits we gain from following this USAF tradition.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:49:48 AM
Okay...but IMHO your reason to reject the USAF tradition is not enough to off set the benefits we gain from following this USAF tradition.

What "benefit " does this provide anyone?

The USAF doesn't care GUARANTEED, and it potentially rankles the members affected.

And further, why do we spend so much time worrying about what people OUTSIDE CAP think, and
apparently much less about what the membership, that CAP depends on for its very existence think or feel?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 02, 2014, 05:14:19 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
I don't remember that tradition.

In fact IIRC the AFI state that you must be on flight status (or missile/space status) to wear them.

If that tradition does exists I make the following points.

a)  Traditions don't have to internally consistent.
b)  The reasoning behind the traditions are different for each tradition.  (Flight wings are mandatory....but specialty badges are optional)(although on the E-side the tradition is NO THEY ARE NOT).

So...trying to make sense of the various traditions is really a lost cause.  We often don't know where they came from, why we do them.  We just do.


AFI 36-2903 is pretty darn restrictive on who can wear flight suits these days.

Short story if you're a flyer, if you don't get flight pay - you don't wear the green bag.
Missile crews and UCAV crews have their own rules, but they're simular.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 02, 2014, 05:15:44 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.

This "tradition" literally sets up a situation whereby 1/2 the adult members would never wear their decorations.

So even if there was some "Good Reason®" to do it in the USAF, whatever that is doesn't apply in CAP,
since it's the only way 1/2 the adult membership could ever wear their decs. 

Here again is a place CAP wants to have it both ways.  "What's the big deal?"  "Trying to show off?"  Etc., etc.
when you make an issue of it while facing someone with a chest full or jelly beans telling others they shouldn't
be so excited about ribbons.  Time and again we hear how dec and plumage are the only way CAP can publicly
acknowledge accomplishments, and then the "tradition" is "don't bother".

Seriously?

Why does Capt Twiceayear get to stand in front of his peers and exhibit his 2-line rack of bare minimums and
Col WingCC, who did 3 tours in WWDS gets grief for wearing his?

I would hazard, and I believe it's been said here, that this started because USAF NCOs felt that the officers were showing off
their large racks compared to many in the enlisted ranks.

Again, assuming that is true.  It doesn't apply, even a little, to CAP.


Enlisted pukes usually have more ribbons then the Officers do. Try again.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:17:01 AM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:23:48 AM
^ Not without conflicting with verbiage elsewhere which does not allow military medals
on corporate uniforms.

I wear my highest dec, though yes, it could be any of the CAP mini medals.

I should just wear the "Membership" medal.  :)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:28:29 AM
From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

I knew at my RSC when we did the Dining In, That the prescribed uniform was Mess Dress, USAF Service Jacket or a Civilian Jacket and Tie.  The Corporate uniform of any variety was frowned upon by the Protocol Officer/College Staff.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:33:54 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, if you could get away with wearing Pajamas at work...wouldn't you.  I loved my old command, if you were in a flight status...you could wear the flight suit everyday...you never know when the flight schedule will unexpectedly change.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Salty on July 02, 2014, 12:52:46 PM
The only tradition I remember from my USAF days is "all, some, or none."  It was left up to individuals on how they wanted to display their fruit salad on the blues shirt.

SARDOC, you're not the only person who wore a flight suit all the time because of "unexpected schedule changes."  When I was deployed to Southwest Asia all the aeromedical technicians wore desert flight suits due to "rapid response" capabilities.  None of us were on flight status and nobody ever said a word.  That only happened overseas though.  Back here in the States we wore our BDUs, hospital whites, or blues.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 02, 2014, 04:17:26 PM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.

Sardoc...just a point of clarification.   The wording applied to all uniforms that were to be worn at the event, not just USAF-Style.   Every participant was lined up for the inspection.  Even those wearing G/W have uniform infractions (i.e. wrong placement of insginias/badges; wearing the wrong type of belt (we have seen BDU or service dress blue belts worn).  Since our event is/was on an USAF base, being members of the Civil Air Patrol-USAF Auxiliary it is imperative that we look professional and carry ourselves as such.  We represent CAP on that base.  Many USAF personnel don't know about CAP and for that short time we are there, our members are the only exposure they may have to our organization.   We also encourage pride and correct wear in whatever uniform is being worn....because it is a privilege to wear a CAP uniform.  Remember membership in CAP is a privilege, not a right.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:26:02 PM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.

Sardoc...just a point of clarification.   The wording applied to all uniforms that were to be worn at the event, not just USAF-Style.   Every participant was lined up for the inspection.  Even those wearing G/W have uniform infractions (i.e. wrong placement of insginias/badges; wearing the wrong type of belt (we have seen BDU or service dress blue belts worn).   We encourage pride and correct wear in whatever uniform is being worn....because it is a privilege to wear a CAP uniform.  Remember membership in CAP is a privilege, not a right.

Seems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:30:40 PM
Seems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Chappie on July 02, 2014, 04:42:35 PM
Seems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.

Eclipse...I wholeheartedly concur.  Which gets us back to what I was initially responding to.   It is not up to NHQ to enforce the CAPM 39-1, it is up to the squadron commander, activity director...even more experienced members (cadets and seniors alike) to point out the infractions and assist the member to make the needed corrections.   No one is above having something out of line or off.  I have had items pointed out to me from time to time...did I find it offensive???  No...it was helpful. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:55:05 PM
Seems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.

Actually I'm talking about the organizational obsession with uniforms, ribbons, etc.  When I volunteer with the Red Cross my Disaster Action Team doesn't get in uniform.  We put on our clothes, wear our identification and get the JOB done.  When we go to training, we wear whatever clothes we wear, wear out identification and get the JOB done.  CAP seems far more interested in the sizzle (appearance) then the steak (doing the JOB). If we devoted a tenth of the commitment to our three fold mission, as we do to what people are wearing, can wear, should wear, we wouldn't have half the issues we do today.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Salty on July 02, 2014, 05:09:03 PM
Perhaps the answer is removing everything from the Senior Member program but an ID card, flying qualifications and ES qualifications.  That's the barebones of what CAP needs in order to complete the "primary" mission.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:10:00 PM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.

So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.



Nope.  An activity commander can set the UOD to something besides the MBU as long as participation is optional, and going to Encampment is optional.   You can't force a cadet to buy BDUs to attend a Squadron meeting, however.

Is it?  You could stretch the point to a cadet C/CMSgt who is being told "promote or be terminated" after a year with no progression.  At that point encampment is decidedly >not< optional.

It's an unwinnable argument in either way since the regs are clear but the practice runs counter to them and no one cares to fix it.

The reg make no allowance for the concept of "optional" vs. "non-optional" activities, we've made that logical assertion in these discussions, but that doesn't mean it would stand a complaint filed by a mom who actually reads the reg and can't afford BDUs. It simply and clearly says the only uniform a cadet can be compelled to wear is the MBU, unless the other uniform(s) or items are issued by CAP.

Frankly I'm glad it never came up while I was an encampment commander, but it was discussed every year.

So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

I gotta figure as a child ages he/she out grows his current set of BDUs and can donate the old ones to closet and as senior members "expand" over time the same thing. Also with donations from the USAF getting rid of existing stocks and individual Servicemembers  get rid of their old BDUs those closets should almost be fully functional supply rooms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
Actually I'm talking about the organizational obsession with uniforms, ribbons, etc.  When I volunteer with the Red Cross my Disaster Action Team doesn't get in uniform.  We put on our clothes, wear our identification and get the JOB done.  When we go to training, we wear whatever clothes we wear, wear out identification and get the JOB done.  CAP seems far more interested in the sizzle (appearance) then the steak (doing the JOB). If we devoted a tenth of the commitment to our three fold mission, as we do to what people are wearing, can wear, should wear, we wouldn't have half the issues we do today.

OK, come on.

The ARC isn't a paramilitary auxiliary organization, nor does it train youth to a paramilitary standard, serve as an introduction
to military life for its youth members, nor depend on the military for both missions and resources.

I whine as much as anyone, but the organizations are not really comparable, any more then the CAP and BSA.

The uniforms are the problem, per se, it's the schizophrenic nature of how they are used and allowed (which in turn
is due in part to the schizophrenic nature of CAP as a whole).
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:15:35 PM
Quote
In fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.

So a very rich Wing Commander could dictate any uniform he wants via supplement... he just has to buy everyone that supplemental uniform.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:16:12 PM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

If you're an Air Force rated officer or enlisted career aviator, you can wear the flight suit any time a utility uniform (i.e. ABU) is appropriate as long as you're in an appropriate aeronautical billet, whether you're in active flying status or not.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Para. 8.1.1.1
The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems that flight suits are not restricted to actual flying as long as you're a qualified aircrew member, perform flying related duties and the commander has approve its use.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:16:32 PM
Quote
In fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.

So a very rich Wing Commander could dictate any uniform he wants via supplement... he just has to buy everyone that supplemental uniform.

No, he would only have to buy the uniform for cadets.  Seniors are responsible for equipping themselves as directed.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:17:28 PM
So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

Many do exactly this - but those uniforms are "free".  Who pays for the initial stock?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 05:18:39 PM
OK, come on.

The ARC isn't a paramilitary auxiliary organization, nor does it train youth to a paramilitary standard, serve as an introduction
to military life for its youth members, nor depend on the military for both missions and resources.

I whine as much as anyone, but the organizations are not really comparable, any more then the CAP and BSA.

To some extent you're right, they are not comparable, but you can't have it both ways.  Either we are a paramilitary organization and introduction to the military and therefore the "second class" citizen uniform is appropriate.  Or, we are an organization whose primary purpose is to perform the tasks given us in a professional manner, in which case we do not need uniforms as shown by the ARC, who respond far more often and to far bigger events on a regular basis than we do.  In either case my original statement stands, if we spent a tenth of the effort on the mission instead of all the bellyaching over uniforms, we'd cut out problems in half
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:20:28 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?

Not >all< traditions, >this< tradition.  CAP doesn't even have an NCO program, yet the tradition says only NCOs wear ribbons on their shirts,
while at the same time a large portion of the membership can >only< wear ribbons on their shirt and no where else.

The USAF also has a tradition of aircrew wearing brown A2 jackets, but that's verboten in CAP.

Their culture is "up or out" not " stick around", but that's not how CAP works.

Etc., etc.

If a USAF tradition or practice "works", fine. This one doesn't in a CAP context.

perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all.
There are strong arguments for this, though that isn't necessarily a good idea.

Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either.
If you can't wear it, why award it?

When did CAP become all about the "bling"?
An interesting question considering how "colorful" your forum signature is.

It's always fun to have people who "can" suggest to people who "can't" why something they "can't" isn't important.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:23:35 PM
Those without the choice are left unable to display their plumage in the same way that those
who can wear the USAF styles do.  In fact, they pretty much can't wear them at all to formal
functions since the blazer doesn't allow it.

So Maj Fat and Fuzzy, who is the backbone of the wing, devotes 40 hours a week to CAP,
as well as being encampment staff and devoting his 2-weeks vacation every year to an NCSA
can't wear a "real" uniform to the banquets or PiRs, while Lt Twice A Year can do so whenever he please.

Or the good major is the commander of an even on a military base, and is forced to
wear the Realtor jacket while his subordinates all wear their brightest service dress.

And before you say "it shouldn't matter", maybe not, but it does, especially to newer guys with no choice,
especially since the rules are both arbitrary, and largely (pun intended) ignored by the very leadership
charged with enforcing them.

Quite well stated, sir.  I was hoping the new 39-1 would address this somehow, but obviously they chose not to.

They could rent a civilian tuxedo and wear all their mini-medals on it.

All the Services, including the USAF, have clear regulations on wearing decorations on civilian formal attire.

Generally that is wearing mini-medals only, no badges and ribbon only awards, worn on the lapel of the tails coat or over the left pocket  of the dinner jacket.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:25:51 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:33:30 PM
No matter which option we take with the uniform, someone will disagree and be upset. Let's review the most common ones discussed here on CAP Talk:


This is an over simplified list, but I think illustrate that no matter which decision is made, someone will be displeased and complain about it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:40:40 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?

Not >all< traditions, >this< tradition.  CAP doesn't even have an NCO program, yet the tradition says only NCOs wear ribbons on their shirts,
while at the same time a large portion of the membership can >only< wear ribbons on their shirt and no where else.

The tradition is not that NCOs get to wear their ribbons, but that officers usually don't wear theirs. There have been many high ranking Air Force officers who have tried for years to simplify the Air Force uniform, but most SNCOs would not support such efforts; much like CAP members I suppose.

That said, I've never seen or heard in the AF the type of discussions I do in CAP about uniforms or awards. Seriously, I like "bling" as much as the next guy, but it's not as big of a deal as many CAP members make it out to be. I didn't joined CAP because of the uniform, the badges, the awards or the grade; I joined because I believe in the mission and get satisfaction when we accomplish it successfully. All this discussions, IMHO, are a distraction.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:43:15 PM
This is an over simplified list, but I think illustrate that no matter which decision is made, someone will be displeased and complain about it.

Agreed.

So lead and make decisions which spread the pain around, while fulfilling the mission for the most people
and presenting a uniform appearance for the organization, which is supposed to be the purpose of a uniform
to start with.

There are also less "catastrophic" measures which could be taken such as consolidation of the operational uniforms
which would set the tone, and be a step in the right direction while not completely walking away from CAP's USAF roots.

Since camo no longer provides any USAF affinity, it serve zero purpose and is a liability in the field.
Green flight suits are by no means "unique" to the USAF, or even the military for that matter.

Dark blue for all and move on.  Keep the dress uniforms as is (for now).

Simple, and you're 1/2-way to an actual "uniform".  Further, since mission work is when most people
see CAP out in the open, all of a sudden you have an organizational identity.

Done.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:45:18 PM
That said, I've never seen or heard in the AF the type of discussions I do in CAP about uniforms or awards.

And that's because CAP's multi-form is broken, and worse, not properly worn, nor is regulation compliance enforced.

Fix even 1/2 that sentence and most whining goes away.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:45:35 PM
Quote
2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:54:32 PM
And the circle is complete.

So.....what's the solution guys?

You are now the National Commander......make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

If I am ever lucky enough to rise to that level; I would adopt one khaki Corporate Service uniform (which i have described many times in other threads) for all Senior members.

USAF styles would be reserved for Cadets only.

The only exception to this would be the USAF-style Mess (Tuxedo) uniform.

BBDUs and Blue flight suits would become the standard Field and Flight duty uniforms.

Polo's would be authorized but with the khaki trousers for office duties and khaki tactical pants for semi-field duties.

One team, one uniform, one fight.
 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:55:58 PM
I'm sorry guys...but we keep comming back to this.

Nothing has changed....the same three less then optimal choices.

a) Ditch the USAF uniforms
b) Ditch the out of weight and grooming people
c) Keep the status quo.

Sadly, I believe you are correct.   :(
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
Quote
2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.

Yes because its my intention to spend as much money as possible at Vanguard.  Just out of curiosity, shuman, where do you pick up your shirts and trousers?  How do you define reasonably priced? 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:57:41 PM
....make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

Which is what the National CC should do, make the call.

Go to the USAF and discuss the height/weight and actually request, formally, that all members be in the same uniform.
Instead of conjecture about what might be refused, or "they told us 'no' over coffee", etc., submit the request and
insure it is formally addressed and responded to.

Depending on their response, then it will either be "all in blue" or "all in gray".  Lots of people will be unhappy, but lots
of people are already unhappy, it's time they at least knew who was making them unhappy.

The process should be 100% open, and done publicly, including all requests and responses from all parties,
this is, after all, a volunteer paramilitary organization which depends on the benevolence of its members for
its existence, not some intelligence hearings about Ukraine.  Nothing about the uniforms should be a "secret".

Then, once CAP has a "uniform", whatever it is, this conversation never have has to occur again.

If the USAF came out publicly and simply said "This situation is out of CAP's hands, we choose to
perpetuate the status quo and there will be no change to a single uniform as long as it is our call...".
then at least everyone would know where the blame lies, and the situation could be addressed
from a different vector (i.e. DOD, Congress, whatever).

Until then, because no one wants to be blamed, or risk being sad or making someone else sad, it
all lies in a dark corner and everyone can privately blame everyone else, while never actually doing anything.

There is, of course, the possibility that the BOG doesn't >want< a single uniform, for whatever reason,
and if that's the case, so be it, that's their call to make, but then they should own it.

Well stated Sir.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:11:35 PM
Quote
There are those who would assert that officers do not wear their decorations on the blues shirt when worn without a jacket.

Is that regulation or tradition?  ;)

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:21:13 PM
^ Not without conflicting with verbiage elsewhere which does not allow military medals
on corporate uniforms.

I wear my highest dec, though yes, it could be any of the CAP mini medals.

Another silly rule to add to the second class status of the Grey/Whites... no Military decorations and badges.

Never mind that every VSO with a uniform (VFW, AL, MCL, etc.) allows it on their uniforms...

or that many police and fire agencies at Federal, State and local levels allow it...

or that the USAF actually has regulations for the wear of decorations on civilian attire...

Lets make the second class feel even more left out.

Stupid.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 06:22:09 PM
There are also less "catastrophic" measures which could be taken such as consolidation of the operational uniforms
which would set the tone, and be a step in the right direction while not completely walking away from CAP's USAF roots.

Since camo no longer provides any USAF affinity, it serve zero purpose and is a liability in the field.
Green flight suits are by no means "unique" to the USAF, or even the military for that matter.

Dark blue for all and move on.  Keep the dress uniforms as is (for now).

Simple, and you're 1/2-way to an actual "uniform".  Further, since mission work is when most people
see CAP out in the open, all of a sudden you have an organizational identity.

Done.

This is the route I've advocated for a while.  This would have been a great step with the introduction of the new CAPM 39-1.

I was hoping this regulation was going to generate this kind of change...but it seems not much has changed at all, begging the question...why did it take so long if it's primarily just a reformat?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

Concur.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:33:32 PM
So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

Many do exactly this - but those uniforms are "free".  Who pays for the initial stock?

Donations from the USAF and Servicemembers get rid of BDUs.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:44:31 PM
Quote
2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.

Yes because its my intention to spend as much money as possible at Vanguard.  Just out of curiosity, shuman, where do you pick up your shirts and trousers?  How do you define reasonably priced?

I buy my uniforms via AAFES, on average an ASU white costs $20.00 USC. I think that is quite reasonable for dress shirt.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:52:47 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on July 02, 2014, 06:54:32 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 06:56:46 PM
The ASU shirt is great. I bought both long and short sleeve versions. Better material, looks great,.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:59:24 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 07:00:04 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?

No, that's fine, even specified sometimes.  It's the wear of CAP decs and badges on that attire which is prohibited.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 07:00:40 PM
The ASU shirt is great. I bought both long and short sleeve versions. Better material, looks great.

My point exactly.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 07:01:46 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?

No, that's fine, even specified sometimes.  It's the wear of CAP decs and badges on that attire which is prohibited.

But military would be fine.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 07:04:37 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?

No, that's fine, even specified sometimes.  It's the wear of CAP decs and badges on that attire which is prohibited.

But military would be fine.

In many cases the persons who are wearing the corporate uniforms have never served in the military, so they are still prevented from wearing their CAP awards
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 07:07:09 PM
But military would be fine.

If you want to wear civilian attire with military decorations and badges, CAP has no say or concern in the matter.

If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

So no, you could not wear a brown suit with a CAP ribbon rack on it.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: MHC5096 on July 02, 2014, 07:28:03 PM
Umm...the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, NOAA Commissioned Corps and Public Health Service all permit (and in some cases require) military creases. The Air Force is the odd man out with this.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Garibaldi on July 02, 2014, 07:49:09 PM
So I'm wrong. All I've ever seen was Marines with their pocket creases on their khaki shirts. Never once saw it on a Soldier, Sailor, or Airman.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 02, 2014, 07:54:57 PM
So I'm wrong. All I've ever seen was Marines with their pocket creases on their khaki shirts. Never once saw it on a Soldier, Sailor, or Airman.

The new white shirt worn with the Army Service Uniform (ASU) has permanently sewn military creases in both the issue (DSCP) and commercially procured versions (Marlow White). Most times the soldiers I've run into on Redstone Arsenal (where I work) wear the ACU in daily use.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Private Investigator on July 02, 2014, 08:19:41 PM
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.1.4. Medals. One miniature medal may be worn centered above the pocket so that the bottom portion of the medal is ½ inch above the CAP Crest or service badge.

So on the Corporate semi-formal uniform, can that be any miniature medal?

I usually carry 2 or 3 mini medals and swap them out throughout the evening/event to see if anyone notices.

That is so excellent. Thanks for the heads up.  8)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Private Investigator on July 02, 2014, 08:22:56 PM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, man, don't mess with the zipper suited sun gods.
I always thought it laundry day.

I did too  :clap:
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.

So there are several SDFs that authorize the wear of both CAP and USCGAux decorations on their uniforms, showing that they have a great respect for the service of the Military Auxiliaries, yet CAP's regulations would prevent a current CAP member, who is also a member of one those SDFs, from wearing those decorations?

In a word... stupid.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 02, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.

So there are several SDFs that authorize the wear of both CAP and USCGAux decorations on their uniforms, showing that they have a great respect for the service of the Military Auxiliaries, yet CAP's regulations would prevent a current CAP member, who is also a member of one those SDFs, from wearing those decorations?

In a word... stupid.

CGAux does not allow wear of CAP awards and decorations and vice versa,
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:40:10 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.

So there are several SDFs that authorize the wear of both CAP and USCGAux decorations on their uniforms, showing that they have a great respect for the service of the Military Auxiliaries, yet CAP's regulations would prevent a current CAP member, who is also a member of one those SDFs, from wearing those decorations?

In a word... stupid.

CGAux does not allow wear of CAP awards and decorations and vice versa,

I don't understand that one either... you'd think the two Auxiliaries would respect each others service more.  :-\
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 02, 2014, 09:47:19 PM
Ma Blue only allows the wear of state National Guard awards on the uniform while performing state service. If called up for Federal service, the state 'gongs' (to use that quaint, veddy Britsh slang term) must come off.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on July 02, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.


As it turns out CAP doesn't really have a horse in this race.  The "no military decorations on corporate uniforms" rule was imposed by CAP-USAF based on an opinion by their JAG interpreting the AF rules about wearing military decorations on civilian attire.

I've spoken with the CAP-USAF commander and the particular JAG involved, and believe the opinon is incorrect, but they were unpursuaded.

So the rule remains until we can convince CAP-USAF otherwise.

(And I submit that publicly calling the rule "ignorant" or "stupid" will not be helpful in that regard.  Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .)

Ned Lee
Member at Large, NUC
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 10:35:12 PM
In many cases the persons who are wearing the corporate uniforms have never served in the military, so they are still prevented from wearing their CAP awards

That may be the case in your neck of the woods.  My Squadron has a number of Military Retirees and Veterans...  It goes along with being in a military town.  Most wear the Corporates some for Grooming Standards (don't want to be required to do the maintenance after over 20 years of service) Some like me who don't meet the Weight Standard... for various reasons.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 10:37:50 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.

So there are several SDFs that authorize the wear of both CAP and USCGAux decorations on their uniforms, showing that they have a great respect for the service of the Military Auxiliaries, yet CAP's regulations would prevent a current CAP member, who is also a member of one those SDFs, from wearing those decorations?

In a word... stupid.

The SDF in my state does not recognize CAP or CGAUX awards...because they aren't "Military".  It has to go with the "Awarding Authority"  Not, saying I agree or disagree with it.  Not being in the SDF it doesn't really impact me.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 10:40:27 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\

I had a couple of State Awards and a couple of federal awards listed on my NGB22...  I wore the federal ones and not the state, because it depended on which status you were in which ribbon rack to pick.  I never bothered.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
Quote
If you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.


As it turns out CAP doesn't really have a horse in this race.  The "no military decorations on corporate uniforms" rule was imposed by CAP-USAF based on an opinion by their JAG interpreting the AF rules about wearing military decorations on civilian attire.

I've spoken with the CAP-USAF commander and the particular JAG involved, and believe the opinon is incorrect, but they were unpursuaded.

So the rule remains until we can convince CAP-USAF otherwise.

(And I submit that publicly calling the rule "ignorant" or "stupid" will not be helpful in that regard.  Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .)

Ned Lee
Member at Large, NUC

And if that doesn't sum up the second class status of those required to wear Grey/Whites... the USAF considers it "civilian attire" and not a uniform.  :(
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on July 02, 2014, 10:57:52 PM
And if that doesn't sum up the second class status of those required to wear Grey/Whites... the USAF considers it "civilian attire" and not a uniform.  :(

I don't think that is a fair assessment. 

The terms "uniform" and "civilian attire" are not necessarily inconsistent when the clothing in question is being worn by a civilian.  In other words, it could be both.

The JAG based the opinion on relevant USAF OIs.  It was not a snap judgment, but a reasoned legal opinon.

Like I said, I disagreed with it, but your characterization of the opinion is not fair.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Salty on July 02, 2014, 11:04:19 PM
Seems to me the USAF-like uniforms CAP members wear would be "civilian" uniforms just like the G/W combo.  I fail to see the distinction between the two other than the color of the fabric.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:18:06 PM
Seems to me the USAF-like uniforms CAP members wear would be "civilian" uniforms just like the G/W combo.  I fail to see the distinction between the two other than the color of the fabric.
Unfortunately.......it is not your understanding of the law, regs and OIs that counts.
The CAP-USAF CC went to this JAG...who provided an opinion.

It was CAP-USAF's decision........to follow his JAG's professional advice.

You really can't fault the guy for following his expert's advice.

If you disagree with it....as Ned said......a well written and researched White Paper would be your best bet.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 11:51:46 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

The Federal Government does have a say so over the SDF uniforms. 

Quote from:  AR 670-1
c. State Defense Forces (SDF) may adopt the service uniform and the utility uniform, provided all service uniform
buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S.
Army. State insignia will not include “United States,” “U.S.”, “U.S. Army”, or the Great Seal of the United States.
Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap.
The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, “Texas State Guard”). The utility
uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of “U.S. Army” over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the
Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

The army doesn't inflict H+W uniform standards on the SDF Volunteers though.   
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on July 03, 2014, 12:42:08 AM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?


No, that's fine, even specified sometimes.  It's the wear of CAP decs and badges on that attire which is prohibited.

And confusing.

An ex-military CAP person can attend a CAP event and wear:

1)CAP blazer with bow tie and ONE CAP miniature medal; OR
2) Civilian suit, sport coat, blazer (non-CAP) or no coat at all, with regular tie, bow tie, bolo tie or no tie at all, with all of his earned military medals, but no CAP medals.

[“You don’t have to put them on only if you’re in a parade,” said VA Secretary Jim Nicholson. “Wear them when you go play golf. Wear them when you go to the store. Let America know that you took that oath and served.” (October, 2006).]


Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 12:45:20 AM


The Federal Government does have a say so over the SDF uniforms. 

Quote from:  AR 670-1
c. State Defense Forces (SDF) may adopt the service uniform and the utility uniform, provided all service uniform
buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S.
Army. State insignia will not include “United States,” “U.S.”, “U.S. Army”, or the Great Seal of the United States.
Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap.
The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, “Texas State Guard”). The utility
uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of “U.S. Army” over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the
Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

The army doesn't inflict H+W uniform standards on the SDF Volunteers though.

That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Most GCC's replace the following with:

US Seal buttons with State Seal buttons

Hat Badge replaces the thirteen stars with a State Seal (barracks/service cover)

Beret blue patch replaced with red version (NY uses grey)

U.S. collar brass replaced with two letter State initials (California uses a gold "U.S." with a superimposed black enamel "CA" on top of it)

Red nametag replaces black nametag (California uses maroon and I think NY uses Grey)

Army Branch insignia is often replaced with a crossed musket and saber insignia

on ACU's the Army tape is replaced with a State tape and the US Flag with a State Flag.

At first glance it's really hard to tell a SDF GCC from an Army Soldier.
 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 03, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .

Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

I don't understand that one either... you'd think the two Auxiliaries would respect each others service more.  :-\

Having been a member of both Auxiliaries, it is correct that CAP ribbons, devices etc. cannot be worn on the CGAUX uniform.

However, as to the reverse, it depends on who you ask.

I have asked two former unit commanders, both prior-service retired (one USMC SNCO and one USN CWO) about this.

Both of them said exactly the same thing: that they could find nothing directly prohibiting it in CAPR's, and that, since the awarding authority for CGAUX ribbons comes from the Commandant, USCG, through the Chief Director Auxiliary (a USCG Captain), that counts as "competent military authority."

I have worn CGAUX ribbons (after all CAP ribbons) and the single USCG ribbon (before CAP ribbons) I earned as an Auxiliarist on the CAP/AF blue uniform and have never been challenged on it, even by wing commanders who have seen it.  If said ladies and gentlemen had ordered me not to wear them, the order would have been obeyed.

A lot of ANG people I've known have had two sets of ribbon racks - one with both Federal and State ribbons, and the other with just Federal.

At first glance it's really hard to tell a SDF GCC from an Army Soldier.

It's equally hard to tell Air/Naval SDF's from their AD counterparts.

(http://www.calguard.ca.gov/CSMR/PublishingImages/Collier_photo.jpg)
Command Chief Master Sergeant Charles W. Collier, California State Military Reserve.  I don't see anything distinctive other than the red nameplate.  I can't tell about his collar brass.

(http://www.navalmilitia.ohio.gov/images/osborn.jpg)
RDML Robin E. Osborn, Ohio Naval Militia
Other than the small circular badge centred on Admiral Osborn's left breast, I just see a Navy officer.

The Texas State Guard Maritime Regiment is even allowed to use the Marines' EGA with "TX" superimposed, which surprised the heck out of me given the Marines' intense protectiveness of said symbol.

(http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/Data/Sites/1/txsgpics/tmar/tmar_ega.jpg)

Disclaimer: None of these citations is meant in any way to demean, dishonour or disrespect the achievements of the individuals given as examples, or to any member of an SDF. 

I also know that SDF's serve under their State Military Justice Codes.  However, to the best of my knowledge, none are trained as actual combat troops (someone please correct me if I'm incorrect); DR is a big part of their mission (as with ours) as well as support to their State's National Guard.

But it does not look to me like the Army, Navy or Air Force impose any real "distinctiveness" requirements on them as are imposed on us, and I certainly don't know of "alternative" uniforms they have to wear.

NOTE: On closer examination (and use of bifocals) I can see the "CA" collar brass on the Command Chief Master Sergeant's uniform.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 01:57:19 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 03, 2014, 01:58:27 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

I said can, not would.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 02:00:04 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

I said can, not would.
So what is the problem?
You can always follow up.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 03, 2014, 02:05:28 AM
Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

And you know it was your suggestion that prompted the change and not 100 other people simultaneously submitting something self-evident?

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 03, 2014, 02:07:10 AM
Cyborg, look a little closer to Chief Collier's collar brass. They say CA not US.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 02:07:26 AM
Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

And you know it was your suggestion that prompted the change and not 100 other people simultaneously submitting something self-evident?
Yes....because I sent it to my Wing CC who put it on the agenda, presented it to the NB and the NB voted on it while we were getting updates in more or less real time.

:)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: abdsp51 on July 03, 2014, 02:18:16 AM
And what was the recommendation?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 02:22:37 AM
And what was the recommendation?
Adopted in part.   The part reject was adopted in the most recent printing of 39-1.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 03, 2014, 02:31:10 AM
And what was the recommendation?
Adopted in part.   The part reject was adopted in the most recent printing of 39-1.

Which, was.......
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 02:34:04 AM
I wrote a white paper making suggestion to change 39-1 to expand the wear of the Commander's badge.

At that time there was only the medal badge for blues.

I suggested and used AFI language to allow its wear on BDUs and BBDU as well as Flight suits.

I suggested the elimination of the command service ribbon and the wear of the badge below the line for alumni commanders.

The only not adopted at this time is the elimination of the Command Service ribbon
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 03:35:02 AM
That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Not According to National Guard Regulation 10-4

Quote from:
d. Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States
except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.

It doesn't specify branch, just applies to SDF's that Interact with the National Guard.  Which I believe is Unconstitutional.

The United States Constitution, Article I, Section 10, Clause 3, prohibits any State from keeping troops without the consent of Congress.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 03:43:41 AM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: sardak on July 03, 2014, 04:23:46 PM
I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Not According to National Guard Regulation 10-4

Quote from:
d. Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States
except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.

It doesn't specify branch, just applies to SDF's that Interact with the National Guard.  Which I believe is Unconstitutional.

The United States Constitution, Article I, Section 10, Clause 3, prohibits any State from keeping troops without the consent of Congress.

They are authorized by the consent of Congress, read Title 32 of the United States Code under the section "Maintenance of Other Troops".

NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:28:34 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

Concur, the logic... or lack there of... escapes me.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:39:13 PM
I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike

Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:13:14 PM
NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)

The National Guard Regulation isn't an Army Regulation. 

NGR = National Guard Regulation which is Promulgated by The National Guard Bureau (NGB) which a Joint Command involving the Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force.

AR = Army Regulation which is Promulgated strictly by the Department of the Army.

The Army National Guard falls under the NGB and isn't required to abide by Army Regulations unless adopted by reference into the National Guard Regulations as an additional reserve component of the United States Army An example is the Army Regulation 670-1.

For Example National Guard Regulation NGR 600-100 adopts Army Regulation 670-1.

Quote
2-4. Wearing of the uniform and insignia
Pursuant to Title 10, USC, section 772(a), AR 670-1 prescribes the wear of Army uniforms, insignia, and accouterments for Army National Guard soldiers

The National Guard Regulation only applies to State Defense Forces (no branch specified) if they are affiliated or have interactions with the National Guard (Army or Air).

The SDF in my state still wears the BDU although they can technically wear the ACU. Primarily because of the expense and the AR 670-1 no longer specifies the wear of the BDU uniform meaning the State can do whatever they want with it (just can't say U.S. Army).

Does the SDF in your State have any interaction with the Guard?  I know that in my state they both work for the Adjutant General and the State Department of Military Affairs.  The "Naval" and "Air" militia has long ago become incorporated into one SDF organization and now wear the Army uniform because of these regulations.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: GroundHawg on July 03, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike

Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.

I didnt know about the MUC. I have orders for the LA ES Medal, but not for the MUC. It would be more drama than it is worth to get it added to a NGB22.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: GroundHawg on July 03, 2014, 06:53:39 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?

They moved to be inline with the USAF, and now we cant wear any foreign badges unless we are in that country. Boooo
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:58:51 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?

They moved to be inline with the USAF, and now we cant wear any foreign badges unless we are in that country. Boooo

You can wear one, unless in Mess Dress than you can wear them all.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 07:50:49 PM
NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)

The National Guard Regulation isn't an Army Regulation. 

NGR = National Guard Regulation which is Promulgated by The National Guard Bureau (NGB) which a Joint Command involving the Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force.

AR = Army Regulation which is Promulgated strictly by the Department of the Army.

The Army National Guard falls under the NGB and isn't required to abide by Army Regulations unless adopted by reference into the National Guard Regulations as an additional reserve component of the United States Army An example is the Army Regulation 670-1.

For Example National Guard Regulation NGR 600-100 adopts Army Regulation 670-1.

Quote
2-4. Wearing of the uniform and insignia
Pursuant to Title 10, USC, section 772(a), AR 670-1 prescribes the wear of Army uniforms, insignia, and accouterments for Army National Guard soldiers

The National Guard Regulation only applies to State Defense Forces (no branch specified) if they are affiliated or have interactions with the National Guard (Army or Air).

The SDF in my state still wears the BDU although they can technically wear the ACU. Primarily because of the expense and the AR 670-1 no longer specifies the wear of the BDU uniform meaning the State can do whatever they want with it (just can't say U.S. Army).

Does the SDF in your State have any interaction with the Guard?  I know that in my state they both work for the Adjutant General and the State Department of Military Affairs.  The "Naval" and "Air" militia has long ago become incorporated into one SDF organization and now wear the Army uniform because of these regulations.

I live in Indiana, the Indiana Guard Reserve (IGR) is the State's Defense Force. From what I see, they are very interactive with the IN Army National Guard but not so much with the IN Air National Guard.

From what I can find online, Indiana did have a Naval Militia until just before the Korean Conflict when all its assets were rolled into the Navy and/or Marine Corps Reserves; and had an Air Component Command until the early 1980's (which wore USAF style uniforms) which was disbanded and its assets and manpower were rolled into the Ground Component Command.

The IGR's website can be located here: http://www.in.gov/igr/index.htm (http://www.in.gov/igr/index.htm)

I attended training once with the IGR a few years ago. I was working to complete my Military Emergency Management Specialist (MEMS) certification and needed to attend a residence ICS-300 course. The IGR was teaching one close to home and asked to attend.

I was very impressed with all the instructors and the attendees. Almost everyone was prior Service and most of those were all combat veterans. The training was very professional on par with most Reserve course instructions I've had over the years if not better.

They made me feel welcome from the moment I showed up until the class's completion. Their military bearing and uniform appearance was all top notch as well.

When I retire from the Federal Forces, an IGR recruiter will be my first phone call the following day.  ;)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Alaric on July 03, 2014, 08:20:52 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.

Because the military is a Federal service and US Government non-military agencies are Federal services.  It would be a nightmare determining the order of precedence between every organizations medals, where does it end. Could city police/fire/ems wear their decorations, county?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 03, 2014, 09:16:13 PM
From what I can find online, Indiana did have a Naval Militia until just before the Korean Conflict when all its assets were rolled into the Navy and/or Marine Corps Reserves; and had an Air Component Command until the early 1980's (which wore USAF style uniforms) which was disbanded and its assets and manpower were rolled into the Ground Component Command.

More like early 1990s for the Indiana Air Guard Reserve.  I was at a school in IN WING in the early '90s and I remember encountering an IN AGR 1st Lieutenant.  He was in short-sleeved blues with the lightweight jacket (which was unzipped!).  I'm not sure what their role was.  They seemed to be very small and not enough personnel to take over the operations of the two ANGB's in Indiana if need be.  I know that most states' SDF's primary role is augmenting/armoury management if the Guard is put into Federal service.

He had no distinguishing marks other than a blue nameplate which said "INDIANA STATE DEFENSE FORCE" and a small kind of bronze-coloured badge on the left side of his flight cap.  Everything else was standard, off-the-rack, unmodified USAF.

I'm not sure why he was there but he was a nice guy.  I was wearing the Marks of Cain (berry boards) at the time and he asked, "why the hell are the Air Force making you do that?"  I parrotted the "official" <cough!> line <hack!> about the AF wanting us to look more "distinctive" <vomitando!>.  He said "that's silly," or words to that effect.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 09:44:01 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.

Because the military is a Federal service and US Government non-military agencies are Federal services.  It would be a nightmare determining the order of precedence between every organizations medals, where does it end. Could city police/fire/ems wear their decorations, county?

True, it could get messy, but I'm a firm believer that recognition is earned and should be able to be displayed.

Most National Guards and SDFs allow for the wear of other States' decorations on their uniform. Their normal precedence is your current State of Service first, then any other States following in alphabetical order with the decorations from the States in that State's order of precedence.

So to follow my logic, State Government non-Military Agency awards would follow behind the State Military awards with the precedence set up above by alphabet.

So for example if CAP were to allow USCGAux awards and State Military and civilian decorations to be worn this would be the precedence following USAF guidelines (found online so not 100% sure they are correct):

A. US Military Decorations
B. US Unit Awards
C. US non-Military Decorations
D. US Merchant Marine Decorations
E. Prisoner of War Medal
F. Combat Readiness Medal
G. Good Conduct Medals
H. Campaign, Service and Training Awards
I. Marksmanship Awards
J. Air Force Training Ribbon
K. US Merchant Marine Service Awards
L. Foreign Military Decorations
M. Foreign Unit Awards
N. Non-US Service Awards
O. CAP Awards

(Proposed below)

P. USCGAux non-Military Awards
Q. State Military Awards
R. State non-Military Awards
S. 2nd (and so on) State Military Awards
T. 2nd (and so on) State non-Military Awards

As to anything below (i.e. County, City, Town, Village, etc.) a State government decoration (Military or non-Military), they would require approval of at least Wing (or above) to be worn.

Really not as messy as you thought.  ;)



Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: RiverAux on July 03, 2014, 09:46:43 PM
Quote
Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.

Hmm, I never got my LA award for deploying to LA for CAP during Katrina.....
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 09:50:57 PM
Quote
Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.

Hmm, I never got my LA award for deploying to LA for CAP during Katrina.....

I'd write a letter of inquiry to the TAG's Office in Louisiana with a copy of your proof of service during the period. You just might get a Memorandum of Record or a certificate or two and a ribbon or two back.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 07, 2014, 03:23:57 AM

Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

We're not the Army either. Last I checked, we're the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force does not allow military creases on their uniforms.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 07, 2014, 03:28:29 AM

They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

That's a carryover from the Air Force, which does not allow state awards for the regular active duty component or the reserve. Only the Air National Guard is allowed state awards on the Air Force uniform.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 07, 2014, 04:12:21 AM
Only the Air National Guard is allowed state awards on the Air Force uniform.

And then only when not in Federal status.  A lot of Air Guard members have two sets of ribbons - one with state awards, one without.

I am not sure how the Army does it for their Guard personnel.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 07, 2014, 04:19:41 AM
Only the Air National Guard is allowed state awards on the Air Force uniform.

And then only when not in Federal status.  A lot of Air Guard members have two sets of ribbons - one with state awards, one without.

I am not sure how the Army does it for their Guard personnel.

Same way, can't wear "State" awards on a "Federal" uniform.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: ZigZag911 on July 07, 2014, 11:08:19 PM
By the state vs. federal reasoning, CAP ought to be allowed to wear state awards on the Corporate uniform (which is no way federal!)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: RiverAux on July 07, 2014, 11:21:57 PM
Logical, but do we want to add even greater complications to this reg for the relatively small number of people that it would benefit? 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 07, 2014, 11:29:59 PM
Logical, but do we want to add even greater complications to this reg for the relatively small number of people that it would benefit?

I'd be willing to bet more members could wear state decorations then could wear HMRS, NBB, and NCSA stuff combined, not to
be confused with NESA stuff because apparently they are sensitive about being lumped in with HMRS and NBB, so just to be clear
they only have the patch, oh and the hat, which a lot of people where, and I've seen t-shirts, but that's it, so don't get them confused or
lump them together.  Again, just so everyone is clear, NESA only has an NCSA patch, hat, and t-shirt, that's it.


If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 07, 2014, 11:38:34 PM
Logical, but do we want to add even greater complications to this reg for the relatively small number of people that it would benefit?

I'd be willing to bet more members could wear state decorations then could wear HMRS, NBB, and NESA stuff combined.

If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?

State decorations are military decorations too.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 12:10:05 AM
Logical, but do we want to add even greater complications to this reg for the relatively small number of people that it would benefit?

I'd be willing to bet more members could wear state decorations then could wear HMRS, NBB, and NESA stuff combined.

If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?

To what "NESA stuff" are you referring to? Other that items worn at the school, there are no authorized NESA special uniform items to be worn with the CAP uniform. Cite please.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 08, 2014, 12:30:40 AM
Well....there is the NESA patch.   8)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 08, 2014, 12:44:08 AM
Well....there is the NESA patch.   

Yeah, that's about it - included them just to "not not" include them.

They have special mention, but only for the NCSA patches.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 01:09:36 AM
Every (or at least most) national special activities have patches; hardly a reason to single out NESA with NBB and HMRS.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: jeders on July 08, 2014, 05:45:02 PM
If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?

Person 1: I see you have the [Some State] Medal of Valor
Person 2: Huh?...Oh that? That's the [Other State] Community Service Ribbon


Need I say more?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 05:51:13 PM
I have several state awards. Can't wear them anymore on either my Air Force or CAP uniforms. It doesn't bother me at all. And that's not to say that I'm not proud of my accomplishments in the ANG, but I don't get wrapped up around the axle when it comes to things like this.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 08, 2014, 05:52:13 PM
If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?

Person 1: I see you have the [Some State] Medal of Valor
Person 2: Huh?...Oh that? That's the [Other State] Community Service Ribbon


Need I say more?

^ And we care, why?

The world ends because one person's dec is similar to another's but they are awarded for different things?

At least both are having the conversation, and both get to wear them somewhere.

Not to mention the fact that in the majority of cases, people don't move around a lot.
It's not like you'd have hundreds of people intermingled from different SDFs in one state
all the time, even at national conferences they would be few and far between.

Most people see a blur of jelly beans, and move on.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: jeders on July 08, 2014, 05:56:16 PM
If members can wear military decorations on the USAF-Style uniforms, which are irrelevant to CAP, why shouldn't
those with state decs have the same choice and incentive with the whites?

Person 1: I see you have the [Some State] Medal of Valor
Person 2: Huh?...Oh that? That's the [Other State] Community Service Ribbon


Need I say more?

^ And we care, why?

Because we already have enough confusion, do we really want to add more?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Marvin on July 09, 2014, 07:20:10 AM
I find it so odd, if not ludicrous, that members are required to "obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here" and goes on to describe those two options, but fails to ever require them to be worn.  True, there are certain situations, such as specified in 1.2.4 where A uniform must be worn, but even in those, one could easily wear another combination and satisfy the reg.  If one maintains and wears, for example, a flight duty uniform for aircrew duties and a Class B long sleeve shirt combination, that minimum short sleeve shirt will never be worn.  Yet the regs say it must be owned and maintained. 

Perhaps the intent of the reg. was that members should "obtain and maintain one of the uniform combinations appropriate for intended involvment..." but that, of course is not what is prescribed....
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 11:51:37 AM
I find it so odd, if not ludicrous, that members are required to "obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here" and goes on to describe those two options, but fails to ever require them to be worn.  True, there are certain situations, such as specified in 1.2.4 where A uniform must be worn, but even in those, one could easily wear another combination and satisfy the reg.  If one maintains and wears, for example, a flight duty uniform for aircrew duties and a Class B long sleeve shirt combination, that minimum short sleeve shirt will never be worn.  Yet the regs say it must be owned and maintained. 

Perhaps the intent of the reg. was that members should "obtain and maintain one of the uniform combinations appropriate for intended involvment..." but that, of course is not what is prescribed....

If CAPM 39-1 prescribed that a particular uniform combination be worn for a given event, it would interfere with the commander's prerogative to prescribe which uniform will be worn for particular events. That said, CAPM 39-1 is clear that the minimum basic uniforms "meet the requirements of most CAP events." What that means is that, while commanders retain the authority and discretion to prescribe the uniform to be worn, in most instances the minimum basic uniform would be acceptable.

I doubt many commanders would prohibit that the minimum basic uniform be worn to weekly meetings, although they still retain the authority to "specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions." CAPM 39-1 also states that commanders will "refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:22:06 PM

Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

We're not the Army either. Last I checked, we're the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force does not allow military creases on their uniforms.

Still doesn't change the fact that every other Service allows it... so why is the USAF the odd man out on this one?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:26:40 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:27:05 PM
Only the Air National Guard is allowed state awards on the Air Force uniform.

And then only when not in Federal status.  A lot of Air Guard members have two sets of ribbons - one with state awards, one without.

I am not sure how the Army does it for their Guard personnel.

Same way, can't wear "State" awards on a "Federal" uniform.

You are correct... officially... but I routinely see current and former Guardsmen, on Title 10 status, wearing their State awards.

Most likely because the Army lives in ACUs these days. The only time you see most Soldiers outside of MDW in ASU or Dress Blues is at a formal function.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:31:56 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:36:55 PM

Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

We're not the Army either. Last I checked, we're the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force does not allow military creases on their uniforms.

Still doesn't change the fact that every other Service allows it... so why is the USAF the odd man out on this one?

Because they can. And what makes you think that those of us in the Air Force want to look more like the Army or another service anyway? I could ask you the same about the Army's overuse of badges and insignias on their uniform, which no other service does. But that's the Army's uniform and they can do what they want. The Air Force is not the Army. We, as the Air Force Auxiliary, wearing an Air Force uniform with CAP insignias, should be emulating our parent service and no other.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

See the post directly above, to more clearly illustrate this.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:39:14 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:42:24 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.

The Army has limits too... four badges.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:43:13 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:43:22 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

Maybe not your point, but many other CAP members would like to embrace the Army way were every badge or insignia earned goes on the uniform. That's simply not the Air Force way.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:44:50 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

Maybe not your point, but many other CAP members would like to embrace the Army way were every badge or insignia earned goes on the uniform. That's simply not the Air Force way.

Oh I concur, too much bling looks bad.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:54:33 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.

The Army has limits too... four badges.

Since I'm not familiar with Army regulations, I won't argue that. That said, all you have to do is look at the Army service dress and compare it with the Air Force's; you'll see many other insignias, patches and uniform items on it, worn all the time. Some badges are worn over the pockets, others above it, with different setup combinations. I've also seen Soldiers with three badges above the U.S. Army tape on the ACU, while Airmen are only allowed two on the ABU. I've never seen the Marine Corps or the Navy wear as many insignias either as I've seen the Army.

The again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: foo on July 09, 2014, 12:56:25 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.5.1 (page 60)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 01:12:58 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.5.1 (page 60)

My point exactly.

Unlike the USAF-style uniform, which has an authorized shirt, the G/W has authorized shirts.

Which means there is a lack of uniformity.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 01:14:34 PM
Quote
The again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

Yet CAP authorizes more badges to be worn at one time than the USAF.  ???
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 01:20:40 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

4.2.5.1 (page 60)

My point exactly.

Unlike the USAF-style uniform, which has an authorized shirt, the G/W has authorized shirts.

Which means there is a lack of uniformity.

While that is true and it's viewed as a problem to some, it's also viewed as a benefit to others, cost and availability through multiple commercial sources being the primary concern.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 01:24:30 PM
Quote
The again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

Yet CAP authorizes more badges to be worn at one time than the USAF.  ???

Not true. Please read CAPM 39-1; with the exception of the command badge, only four badges can be worn at any given time. There's also specific placement of those badges. Where CAP departs from the Air Force is with number of patches authorized on the BDU.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 09, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
I thought the Air Force had a maximum of four badges in their uniform, am I wrong?

CAPM 39-1 states "not more than four badges."

If USAF=max of four badges and CAP=max of four badges, how does that makes it USAF amount of badges on uniform =/= amount of CAP badges on uniform?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
Quote
The again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

Yet CAP authorizes more badges to be worn at one time than the USAF.  ???

Not true. Please read CAPM 39-1; with the exception of the command badge, only four badges can be worn at any given time. There's also specific placement of those badges. Where CAP departs from the Air Force is with number of patches authorized on the BDU.

I am mistaken, thank you for correcting me, just reviewed both the USAF and CAP instructions and you are right, my bad.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 03:34:16 PM

We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.
the one vanguard sells
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 09, 2014, 04:47:53 PM
Most likely because the Army lives in ACUs these days. The only time you see most Soldiers outside of MDW in ASU or Dress Blues is at a formal function.

I have never seen a Soldier in anything but ACU (including local National Guard troops) for the past several years.

I have never even seen a Soldier wearing the "new" blue dress uniform.

However, I do have to admit that in the past, seeing Soldiers in the green dress uniform (which my dad hated; he was in during the changeover from the Ike jacket to the greens and wore his Ike jacket until the last possible time), with all the ribbons, bells and whistles, I wonder how they kept it all straight.  I think the only real "extra" my dad had was the blue Infantry shoulder cord and blue disks backing his collar brass...despite the fact that he was in an Armored (4th Armored) and not an Infantry division. ???
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 09, 2014, 05:27:04 PM

We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.
the one vanguard sells

The regulations do not say that "the one Vanguard sells" is the only acceptable one.

In fact, you can get ones of near-identical cut and, in some cases, better quality fabric, at pilot shops (brick and mortar/cybershops).
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 09, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
The regulations do not say that "the one Vanguard sells" is the only acceptable one.

In fact, you can get ones of near-identical cut and, in some cases, better quality fabric, at pilot shops (brick and mortar/cybershops).

The Van Heusen 'Aviator' is but one type of shirt that is acceptable per CAPM 39-1 (excerpt of the manual quoted below); I prefer wearing Pilot Shops (http://www.pilotshirts.com) relaxed fit oxford shirt; as it has mitered pocket flaps identical to the AF-style Class B shirt and is a pinpoint oxford. I never liked VH's poplin material (still have a couple I'd be willing to give away). It's convenient that ScamGuard sells it but it ain't the definitive shirt.
 
Quote
4.2.5. Men’s Aviator Shirt Uniform. (Figure 4.16)
 
4.2.5.1. Shirt (Long and Short-sleeved). White cotton-polyester blend aviator style shirt is authorized. Shirt must be oxford, pinpoint, poplin, or broadcloth fabric with white buttons. Two standard sewn flap pockets with no top openings and with or without pen slots. Pocket flap may have straight bottom or curved bottom and be buttoned. Scalloped flap pockets are not authorized. Straight collars only, no button downs. Two epaulet straps. No eyelets for badges. No military creases. Shirt will be tucked neatly into trousers.
 
4.2.6. Women’s Aviator Shirt Uniform.
 
4.2.6.1. Shirts. One of these two shirts may be worn.
  4.2.6.1.1. Aviator Shirt (Long and Short-sleeved) (Figure 4.17). White cottonpolyester blend aviator style shirt is authorized. Shirt must be oxford, pinpoint, poplin, or broadcloth fabric with white buttons. Two standard sewn flap pockets with no top openings and with or without pen slots. Pocket flap may have straight bottom or curved bottom and be buttoned. Scalloped flap pockets are not authorized. Straight collars only, no button downs. Two epaulet straps. No eyelets for badges. No military creases. Shirt will be tucked neatly into slacks or skirt.   
4.2.6.1.2. Overblouse (Figure 4.18). White Overblouse (Long and Short-sleeved). Semi-form fitting princess line with two epaulets and short or long sleeved. With arms hanging naturally, long-sleeves will end ¼ to ½ inch below the wrist, but not be visible below the sleeves of the service coat. The long-sleeved blouse will have rounded cuffs with buttonhole closures on each cuff. The blouse may be modified at the member’s expense to accommodate cuff links. White, V-neck or crew neck style undershirts are optional. If worn, they will be tucked into the skirt or slacks.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 10, 2014, 04:32:36 AM
The Van Heusen 'Aviator' is but one type of shirt that is acceptable per CAPM 39-1 (excerpt of the manual quoted below); I prefer wearing Pilot Shops (http://www.pilotshirts.com) relaxed fit oxford shirt; as it has mitered pocket flaps identical to the AF-style Class B shirt and is a pinpoint oxford. I never liked VH's poplin material (still have a couple I'd be willing to give away). It's convenient that ScamGuard sells it but it ain't the definitive shirt.

Does anybody have any experience with the Elbeco "Wings" (http://www.elbeco.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=9113#tabsTop) shirts?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 10, 2014, 06:40:40 AM
The Van Heusen 'Aviator' is but one type of shirt that is acceptable per CAPM 39-1 (excerpt of the manual quoted below); I prefer wearing Pilot Shops (http://www.pilotshirts.com) relaxed fit oxford shirt; as it has mitered pocket flaps identical to the AF-style Class B shirt and is a pinpoint oxford. I never liked VH's poplin material (still have a couple I'd be willing to give away). It's convenient that ScamGuard sells it but it ain't the definitive shirt.

Does anybody have any experience with the Elbeco "Wings" (http://www.elbeco.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=9113#tabsTop) shirts?


I haven't bought one but from reading their description on a couple of pilot uniform websites the flap pockets are 'non-functional' and accessed through a Velcro closure at the top of the pocket flap. As long as the pockets aren't used to stuff junk in (and believe me, it's a common uniform violation) it should be fine.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: NIN on July 10, 2014, 10:21:06 AM
The regulations do not say that "the one Vanguard sells" is the only acceptable one.

In fact, you can get ones of near-identical cut and, in some cases, better quality fabric, at pilot shops (brick and mortar/cybershops).

Flying Cross makes a shirt on their "Distinguished" line of shirts that is a white pilot shirt *copy* of the USAF blues shirt.

They are also the people who make those "higher end" wool-poly blend USAF blue shirts, so that makes sense. Both my short sleeve blues shirt and my aviator shirt are made by Flying Cross.

Unfortunately, I've had a difficult time finding the white Flying Cross Distinguished shirt.  I want to replace the short sleeve one and get a long sleeve, too.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: AlphaSigOU on July 10, 2014, 11:46:51 AM
Look at Flying Cross (Fechheimer's military/law enforcement line) Duro shirts... they have the identical style as the Distinguished line except in cotton/poplin. http://www.flyingcross.com/search.aspx?keyword=duro+poplin (http://www.flyingcross.com/search.aspx?keyword=duro+poplin)

According to Fechheimer's the military shirts are not available for sale to the general public. Oh, to have a standardized white shirt and gray trousers! (Fat chance! :D)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: shuman14 on July 10, 2014, 12:21:39 PM
Quote
despite the fact that he was in an Armored (4th Armored) and not an Infantry division.

Wear of the Blue Cord and Discs is by assignment to an Infantry Billet within any given type of Unit not by assignment to a Unit itself.

For example the cooks in the 1st Infantry Division do not wear the Cord and Discs because they are assigned to a Cook's Billet, the type of Division matters not.

In any given Armored Division there will be numerous Infantry Billets which would have authorized your father the right to wear the Cord and Discs.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Camas on July 10, 2014, 04:24:30 PM
Does anybody have any experience with the Elbeco "Wings" (http://www.elbeco.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=9113#tabsTop) shirts?
I own a couple of these and I've been very happy with them. I highly recommend them.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SARDOC on July 10, 2014, 11:19:21 PM
Quote
despite the fact that he was in an Armored (4th Armored) and not an Infantry division.

Wear of the Blue Cord and Discs is by assignment to an Infantry Billet within any given type of Unit not by assignment to a Unit itself.

For example the cooks in the 1st Infantry Division do not wear the Cord and Discs because they are assigned to a Cook's Billet, the type of Division matters not.

In any given Armored Division there will be numerous Infantry Billets which would have authorized your father the right to wear the Cord and Discs.

That's True.  I was in a Cavalry Unit...my Company was the infantry component...Blue Cords and Disks with the Cavalry Stetson and Spurs
Title: Name tapes / CAP tapes / cloth rank
Post by: supertigerCH on July 18, 2014, 07:27:43 AM
So, for the BDU and Field Uniform (BBDU), will CAP be changing from "Ultramarine Blue" cloth/tapes... to dark blue (Navy blue)?

Although this has been talked about (and somewhat expected) over the past year... the new 39-1 seems to be in conflict with its self over this.  For example... compare pages 67, 70, 71 with what it says/shows on page 125.


So do our BDU or BBDU uniforms allow us to wear dark blue (Navy blue) nametapes, CAP tapes, cloth rank... or not?

Anyone?


(Please read the parts of the new 39-1 that I indicated... then come back here and share your thoughts...)

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: vento on July 18, 2014, 04:01:34 PM
^^^ Most members believe we are to stay with the UltraMarine Blue based on the wording and that the illustrations in the new 39-1 are wrong.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 18, 2014, 04:16:56 PM
Nevertheless, an RFI for clarification would not hurt.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 18, 2014, 04:35:00 PM
There's no change.  The diagrams were re-done with the assumption of moving both field uniforms
to dark blue, then they were rushed out without being fully vetted at the last minute.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 18, 2014, 05:20:38 PM
...then they were rushed out without being fully vetted at the last minute.

Which seems to happen far too often. ???
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 18, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
Maybe someone who actually worked on this draft can shed some light on this.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 18, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
Maybe someone who actually worked on this draft can shed some light on this.

Are there any CT habitues who did work on it?
Title: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 18, 2014, 05:30:40 PM
I don't know, but it would be nice if someone could offer some factual information on what happened, other that conjectures or assumptions.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on July 18, 2014, 05:41:26 PM
I worked on it, but don't remember the discussions on this particular issue.

The NUC is meeting soon, and I'll see if I can get it on the agenda.

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 18, 2014, 05:43:37 PM
Thanks, Ned!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 18, 2014, 06:20:58 PM
I don't know, but it would be nice if someone could offer some factual information on what happened, other that conjectures or assumptions.

Indeed.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 18, 2014, 06:21:48 PM
I don't know, but it would be nice if someone could offer some factual information on what happened, other that conjectures or assumptions.

Indeed.

Thanks, Ned!

Again Jedi Master Ned steps in. ;D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: supertigerCH on July 18, 2014, 11:05:32 PM
I worked on it, but don't remember the discussions on this particular issue.

The NUC is meeting soon, and I'll see if I can get it on the agenda.



Much appreciated Ned!
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Ned on July 22, 2014, 04:11:17 PM
So, after a discussion with NUC and NHQ folks, it appears that the text / image mismatch on the BDU / BBDU tapes is indeed an artifact from a proposal concerning the ABU. 

They were already aware of the issue and are working the correction.  Watch for "change 1" to the 39-1 to arrive shortly after the summer CC meeting that will address this and a few other minor corrections.

Bottom line - we will continue to use the ultramarine blue tapes that we have used for many years and that share a USAF heritage.

Ned Lee
Member at Large, NUC

Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 22, 2014, 04:36:19 PM
Thank you, Colonel Lee.  That's kind of what I figured you'd say.

Although I think ultramarine looks bad on the BDU's, they don't look horrible on the BBDU's.

Anyway, it would be too much of a PITA to take my existing insignia off, get new ones and put them on. 8)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 22, 2014, 07:35:46 PM
Bottom line - we will continue to use the ultramarine blue tapes that we have used for many years and that share a USAF heritage.

Thanks.  Always good to have clarification even if we assumed that to be true.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: GroundHawg on July 23, 2014, 02:59:42 AM
Quote
despite the fact that he was in an Armored (4th Armored) and not an Infantry division.

Wear of the Blue Cord and Discs is by assignment to an Infantry Billet within any given type of Unit not by assignment to a Unit itself.

For example the cooks in the 1st Infantry Division do not wear the Cord and Discs because they are assigned to a Cook's Billet, the type of Division matters not.

In any given Armored Division there will be numerous Infantry Billets which would have authorized your father the right to wear the Cord and Discs.

That's True.  I was in a Cavalry Unit...my Company was the infantry component...Blue Cords and Disks with the Cavalry Stetson and Spurs

I was in the same boat. I took an inordinate amount of crap when I did my spur ride and when I got my combat spurs for being an 11 series. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Panache on July 25, 2014, 08:16:37 AM
Bottom line - we will continue to use the ultramarine blue tapes that we have used for many years and that share a USAF heritage.

(sigh)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: PHall on July 25, 2014, 10:50:28 AM
Bottom line - we will continue to use the ultramarine blue tapes that we have used for many years and that share a USAF heritage.

(sigh)

What's with the sigh? ???   
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: supertigerCH on July 26, 2014, 06:07:38 AM
Thanks for checking on it Mr. Lee... and for clearing things up.

Most of us had a feeling that would be the answer, but it's always good to have everything spelled out in a way that's 100% clear.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 26, 2014, 04:02:15 PM
What's the rationale with keeping the ultramarine tapes on the corporate field uniform? They look out of place.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on July 26, 2014, 04:54:21 PM
Having the nametapes be uniform?  >:D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 26, 2014, 05:25:05 PM
Having the nametapes be uniform?  >:D

And ugly... don't forget ugly.  ;D
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 26, 2014, 05:58:12 PM
What's the rationale with keeping the ultramarine tapes on the corporate field uniform? They look out of place.

I have a feeling that it is at least two fold.  For one is the uniformity in the name tapes.  But also, help prevent the costs from sky rocketing.  Since the transition was suppose to be in response to getting ABUs, there was no was reason to make the change.  For members wearing the BDUs, transitioning to ABUs would require sewing new patches and tapes on.  So the over all cost was minimal.  In addition, the National could drop the cost of having two different colored insignia at Vanguard.  Thus, it would make sense to force BBDU members to make the switch, even though they would get hit with an expense. 

Now that none of that is happening, there was really no justification to require members to get new tapes.  Especially after the change from CAP to US CAP to CAP plus removing the flag and rearranging patches. 
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 27, 2014, 05:44:08 AM
Yet we are authorised to have navy-blue backed grade insignia on flight suits...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: supertigerCH on July 27, 2014, 06:28:10 AM

Great point Cyborg. 

Thinker has given us a good explanation (that has a lot of truth in it)... however, Cyborg asked the million dollar question.  If all those things are true about minimizing costs... then why make so many of the members of CAP who wear navy blue flight suits buy 2 colors of name tapes?  It just doesn't make much sense.


Storm Chaser... I think you're right too.  Even if we concede that there are some reasons to keep using Ultramarine Blue on the BDU uniform (distinctiveness, Air Force history, etc)... why must the BBDUs not be allowed to have name tapes that match the uniform being worn?  Again... just hard to make sense out of it all.



On the other hand... not everything is about making sense (as most of us know from experience)... and in the end things like this are not the reasons why we are part of CAP.  so i guess as always... it comes down to let it go, drive on , and do what we're here to do.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Sketch on July 30, 2014, 05:59:35 AM
So I've been trying to get a definitive answer on whether or not senior members may wear NCSA patches earned while as a cadet on BDUs. I've heard a few conflicting answers but generally I get the standard "I dont know, go look it up." I've searched through the new 39-1 and unless I missed something (which is probably the case) both Ch. 5 and Ch. 10 say nothing about this. So what is the policy on seniors wearing NCSA patches?

Here is all I could find:
Quote
10.7.15. National Cadet Special Activities (NCSA) Patch. Members who have successfully completed an NHQ-endorsed NCSA may wear the associated patch as reflected on the NHQ-website. Patches earned for prior NCSAs which are no longer current or in this list may continue to be worn.


Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SarDragon on July 30, 2014, 06:13:40 AM
My interpretation - Member implies cadet or SM, so patches earned as a cadet may be worn after crossing to the dark side.

The bigger question is - should they be worn by SMs? I think folks should move on and wear SM patches that they have earned, and save the cadet patches for "I love me" wall decoration.

YMMV.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Sketch on July 30, 2014, 07:27:59 AM
My interpretation - Member implies cadet or SM, so patches earned as a cadet may be worn after crossing to the dark side.

The bigger question is - should they be worn by SMs? I think folks should move on and wear SM patches that they have earned, and save the cadet patches for "I love me" wall decoration.

YMMV.
Thanks for the answer, I'll assume that because the manual doesn't specify either way its not a written rule and is up the individual.

I agree with you to a certain extent - if a SM has earned more current patches as a SM they should wear those, however it depends on how active they are. For example, if a SM went to COS as a cadet, but regularly returns as staff I think they should wear the patch, where as someone who went to SUPTFC once many moons ago, and is no longer active in that program, probably shouldn't wear it IMHO.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: SarDragon on July 30, 2014, 09:24:39 AM
Aren't we talking about patches for utility uniforms here? How often are these uniforms worn at the activities you mentioned?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: lordmonar on July 30, 2014, 12:47:54 PM
So I've been trying to get a definitive answer on whether or not senior members may wear NCSA patches earned while as a cadet on BDUs. I've heard a few conflicting answers but generally I get the standard "I dont know, go look it up." I've searched through the new 39-1 and unless I missed something (which is probably the case) both Ch. 5 and Ch. 10 say nothing about this. So what is the policy on seniors wearing NCSA patches?

Here is all I could find:
Quote
10.7.15. National Cadet Special Activities (NCSA) Patch. Members who have successfully completed an NHQ-endorsed NCSA may wear the associated patch as reflected on the NHQ-website. Patches earned for prior NCSAs which are no longer current or in this list may continue to be worn.
What is confusing about that.   "Members" that would be everyone.  "Cadet Member" would be just cadets.  "Adult Members" or "Senior Members" would just be old folk.   

If you have successfully completed and NCSA you may wear the patch.

You don't need to go digging any deeper....it ain't rocket science.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 30, 2014, 12:57:32 PM
My interpretation - Member implies cadet or SM, so patches earned as a cadet may be worn after crossing to the dark side.

No interpretation required.  It states it there in CAPM 39-1:

Quote
1.2.3.8.6. “Members” indicate adult officers, NCOs and Cadets.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on July 30, 2014, 01:55:09 PM
So I've been trying to get a definitive answer on whether or not senior members may wear NCSA patches earned while as a cadet on BDUs. I've heard a few conflicting answers but generally I get the standard "I dont know, go look it up." I've searched through the new 39-1 and unless I missed something (which is probably the case) both Ch. 5 and Ch. 10 say nothing about this. So what is the policy on seniors wearing NCSA patches?

Here is all I could find:
Quote
10.7.15. National Cadet Special Activities (NCSA) Patch. Members who have successfully completed an NHQ-endorsed NCSA may wear the associated patch as reflected on the NHQ-website. Patches earned for prior NCSAs which are no longer current or in this list may continue to be worn.
The quote seems pretty clear to me, is the SM a member?  If so, then they can wear them.  Remember that NCSAs are not only attended by cadets, and in some cases, some NCSAs (such as NESA) have student programs from seniors.


Now that leads me down another train of thought, if cadets and seniors alike go to these activities and earn the same stuff (patches, ribbons, etc), why are they called National Cadet Special Activities?  Though that is a discussion for another time most likely.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 30, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
Now that leads me down another train of thought, if cadets and seniors alike go to these activities and earn the same stuff (patches, ribbons, etc), why are they called National Cadet Special Activities?  Though that is a discussion for another time most likely.

History.  The primary focus when these programs were started were cadets and Air Force job orientation (1950s).  Most programs were taught by active duty Air Force with very little senior member participation.  Over time, the Air Force participation has dropped while senior member participation has increased.

Now, if I could find out why the NCSA ribbon has no medal, while the encampment ribbon does?  I might have to send up a proposal to get that changed.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 30, 2014, 03:24:34 PM
Can you earn it as a senior?  Then wear it.  If not, it comes off.

NESA stays, HGA goes.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Tim Medeiros on July 30, 2014, 04:02:26 PM
Can you earn it as a senior?  Then wear it.  If not, it comes off.

NESA stays, HGA goes.
And your regulatory guidance for that is?
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 30, 2014, 04:55:55 PM
The precedent of most other similar awards.

Those that indicate they can be worn after transition either say so, or are indicated as award-able to seniors.
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: LSThiker on July 30, 2014, 05:16:38 PM
The precedent of most other similar awards.

Those that indicate they can be worn after transition either say so, or are indicated as award-able to seniors.

CAPM 39-1 states members, which is defined as cadets and senior members.  Thus, the HGA patch can be worn by seniors transitioned from being cadets:

Quote
Members who have successfully completed an NHQ-endorsed NCSA may wear the associated patch as reflected on the NHQ-website

Besides, the HGA patch can be earned as senior member:

Quote
5 Senior Mentors

1 Health Services Officer

1 Finance and Administrative Officer

1 Safety Officer

1 PAO (Can be a cadet with the apply to take pictures and write articles)5 Cadet Flight Commanders (Cadets HG experience preferred)
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 30, 2014, 05:28:15 PM
Well, there you go...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Sketch on July 30, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
Aren't we talking about patches for utility uniforms here? How often are these uniforms worn at the activities you mentioned?
My point was not about a specific activity; if someone attends an NCSA regularly as a SM (that was earned while still a cadet) I think it would be appropriate to wear that patch over someone that went to it once and doesn't go anymore. It shows their commitment to that program.

FWIW I no longer wear my NCSA patches because I haven't been to them in awhile. If I go back as staff I'll probably slap them back on until I earn a new one...
Title: Re: The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available
Post by: Eclipse on July 30, 2014, 06:23:32 PM
A lot of NCSAs are "once and done" - yes they have a core staff that may stick around for years,
but a lot of members participate once and then move on to "other", and getting there at all may have
been an uphill climb of vacation time, travel expenses, etc.

For many it's a "once in a CAP lifetime" deal.