Now I know for a fact this will probably stir up some people on here but it is something that has been cooking in my head for awhile.
You can become a cadet at the age of 12. This to me in my opinion is young and even myself being only 22 I'm young but 12? Now don't get me wrong, I have met some cadets who are 12 years old that come off as if they were 18 but that is a select few that I have met so far. I personally think that NHQ should take a look at this age limit and see what they can do about it and maybe make it a bit higher before you can join.
The one reason why I say this is because of the maturity level of a 12 year old compared to an 18 year old. I mean we are talking about having some squadrons with high schoolers and cadets in 6th grade (correct me if I'm wrong...i was 12 ten years ago and don't remember what grade I was in nor do i want to try to figure that out right now lol). I do however remember how I was character wise at 12 and then at 18. There is a major difference and although at the age of 18 in CAP you should be a mature individual and the role model for the younger cadets, sometimes this can get lost and things that a 18 talks about should probably not be heard by a 12 year old.
That being said...I don't think that we should not give everyone a chance because I am all about giving everyone a fair chance at anything in life, especially a volunteer organization such as this BUT I would hate to see something happen that morally/physically/mentally changes a very young cadet in a negative way. It was a concern that I have brought up and a concern I have heard others bring up. And I am even on the fence about it actually because I think it is a great experience to be here and it will certainly build up character and discipline but at the same time that can only really be done in the proper environment. The mind at 12 is a precious thing and is very delicate...they are still learning and they need a good environment in which to do so.
I figured I would throw that out there and see where it goes.
When we get 'em while they're young, they'll be better off when they turn 18, or 21, or whatever their end-time is.
I think it's great that they allow 12 y/o, it gives them something better to be doing with their time instead of playing Xbox all day.
I'm guessing that the ink is still wet on your membership card.
First, the mind of a 12 year old is neither precious nor delicate. The amount of crap kids are exposed to these days from TV, movies, the Internet, and most importantly, school, has taken care of that long before age 12.
Second, your thinking is 180 degrees from the truth. CAP is often the most stable, normal and positive influence in many cadets lives. These are often the cadets who excel in the program and are great role models for younger cadets.
It may sound a bit harsh, but you're barking up the wrong tree.
I joined right after turning 13, and most of my CAP Career-long friends joined a bit earlier at 12. Most of us (besides the home schooled one), had no problems understanding what the older 16-18 cadets were talking about. 12 year olds aren't innocent, they never really were, but it just makes it easier for parents and others to accept that myth for some reason.
And by the way, most of the cadets who joined at 15-16 seemed to be more set in their ways and would give a lot more push back to the cadet leadership. This especially was an issue when someone like me was placed in charge as a 14 year old C/NCO of 16 year old C/Airmen.
Other groups like the Scouts start even earlier, but in their own "squadron" ie. Cub Scouts. This acts like a pipeline into the group for older kids. Moving our starting age up would only widen the gap.
Not many years ago the rule was "12 or in sixth grade". I believe some 10 year olds joined back then, many 11 year olds as well.
Chris,
I think that you have brought up some valid concerns about cadet age, but my experience as both a cadet and a senior member are completely opposite to those concerns.
It's true that the average 12 year old lacks the maturity that older teens may have. Likewise, the average 15 year old lacks the maturity of the average 20 year old. Personally, I've never met an average teenager in the CAP Cadet Program who's been there for more than 3 months. That's because CAP is a program that creates above average people and allows above average people flourish.
While raising the minimum cadet age might raise the overall maturity level of cadets, I doubt that it would have any substantive effect on the overall program. And it certainly would put those younger potential cadets at a disadvantage because they would loose a major positive influence.
Now, what we should really be discussing is raising the max age of cadets so I can go back and work on my Spaatz. ;D
Valid points everyone!! I guess I'm talking about my childhood and how I was brought up...I went to private school in a hardcore Irish Catholic family so maybe in my mind a 12 yr old should/would be more innocent. I see where everyone is coming from now though for sure. And your not being harsh when you say im barking up the wrong tree...granted Im not really barking just throwing out something I was thinking about while bored at work.
I just know (without naming any of them) far more cadets (12-14 yrs. old) who are in this because their parents are making them go because the parents want alone time at home AND because and I quote from a 13y/old cadet "i can dress up like G.I. Joe!!"...i think CAP is more than that.
And I will also say that even though my "Ink is still wet on my membership card" Ive seen one hell of an improvement from the squadron I transfered from in NY to OK
I originally joined CAP because of the BDUs.
My friend bugged me for 6 months to go to a meeting.
After the initial BDU thing went away, it was Drill.
Then it was the camaraderie. 1- 1.5 years later it turned to teaching younger cadets.
From age 16 to the point that I had to go inactive, the most pleasure I got out of the program was looking at a new cadet who just pinned their first stripe, and think "I helped him get there, and I still remember how good it felt when I got mine too".
Honestly, there are so many different things cadets can focus on, that you can't even pin it down. Some will become major ES geeks. Others will be all about Color Guard/Honor Guard/Drill Team. Some still will love AE. Others will love the "military experience".
There are just so many things to take away from CAP, that it makes no sense to judge the attitudes of the program based on cadets who have been in for less than a year or even two. By the end of my first year I was rocking C/MSgt chevrons. By the end of my second year I was a C/CMSgt. Got my Mitchell on the nose of the 3rd and my Earhart on the 4th.
Obviously my progression slowed from minimum time to double time on promotions, but I had a blast learning and experiencing as much as I could at each and every stage.
I joined when I was 12, back in 1987. My son will be joining this August when he turns 12. I have some young cadets, but they arent "young" very long. When they see the other older cadets, they immediately want to try and act like the older cadets. Again, it requires a good cadet staff, good seniors and parents who understand that at age 12, going to encampment right out of the chute may not be a good idea either.
The cadets that are forced to be in the program shouldn't be, plain and simple. In my experience those cadets are the ones that cause the most problems, at our squadron, we often ask the cadets if they want to be there, if they don't we show them the door. A cadet can not grow and develop unless they want to.
When I joined the first time, I joined as a 12 year old cadet. Believe me, I had no problems understanding what the 18 year olds were talking about. Repeating what others have said, we have a chance to get these cadets at a young age and have a great influence developing them into useful leaders. I have seen many squirrely young 12 year olds come in and by 15 they are as mature if not more mature than the average adult I would meet on the street. They have a firm grasp of their skills and know how to implement them wisely.
I don't think 12 years old is too young, it just ives us a chance to develop them at a young age and even if they don't stick around until they are 18, they are better for it.
Spike, I think the 6th grade rule is just for school-based programs.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 04:49:55 PM
I joined when I was 12, back in 1987. My son will be joining this August when he turns 12. I have some young cadets, but they arent "young" very long. When they see the other older cadets, they immediately want to try and act like the older cadets. Again, it requires a good cadet staff, good seniors and parents who understand that at age 12, going to encampment right out of the chute may not be a good idea either.
I agree with everything you wrote except Encampment. In my experience, every one of the 12 year old Cadets I ever had went to Encampment as soon as they could. The listened to the stories from the other Cadets, and told the parents that instead of summer camp they wanted to go to Encampment.
Now, we need to recognize that as Squadron Commanders there are times when a 12 year old and an 18 year old should not be together in various situations. Physical, and mental maturity is very different between a 12 and 18 years. Some forget this, and there have been situations where parents have to be calmed down.
I think starting CAP young is the right and correct thing to do, and our National Recruiting Campaign (do we have one??) needs to focus on that. I feel bad when I get a 17 year old kid wanting to join CAP. He or she may not get everything out of the program that a younger kid could have.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 24, 2010, 04:54:21 PM
Spike, I think the 6th grade rule is just for school-based programs.
The rule was just going out when I joined CAP in early 2003.
I've met some C/Capt's who were just past 13 at that point too.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 24, 2010, 04:54:21 PM
Spike, I think the 6th grade rule is just for school-based programs.
Like USAFAUX said above. It is now a SEP only rule, you are correct.
So I think you all have given me a different view on the issue...like I said in the OP...I was on the fence so I was not 100 percent for changing the age limit.
I think we can all agree that the issue is making sure everyone is there for the right reasons and the ones that need to be the models are being positive role models.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 04:49:55 PMAgain, it requires a good cadet staff, good seniors and parents who understand that at age 12, going to encampment right out of the chute may not be a good idea either.
First-year encampment attendance is a significant factor in long-term retention, especially for younger cadets.
We do have provisions that prevent 18 year old cadets from being 'alone' more or less with the 12-14 year olds, especially at over night activities.
The one NCSA I've been to, I was 15.5, and my roommate was 18. There was nothing that he could have said that would have "mind blown" me at that age.
Quote from: Spike on February 24, 2010, 04:57:51 PM
I think starting CAP young is the right and correct thing to do, and our National Recruiting Campaign (do we have one??) needs to focus on that. I feel bad when I get a 17 year old kid wanting to join CAP. He or she may not get everything out of the program that a younger kid could have.
Yea I wish I was a cadet...I was a very busy kid in HS and didnt even know it existed until i was about 17 actually. I was in too many sports and other organizations (Key Club) so I never joined...Cadets and Senior officers laugh whenever I stand at attention when my squadron commander or higher Senior officer walks by...i tell them "I was never a cadet...just trying it out" haha
Customs and Courtesies apply to all CAP members, not just cadets.
...In theory. In practice, Military C&C are used by SMs only when it is a ceremony or they want to have some fun.
There was a C/Col that was 13 yrs old. Somewhat of a disservice I think. Im not sure how long she was in before she became a C/Col, but I dont think racing through the tests was the intent of the program.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 05:14:43 PM
There was a C/Col that was 13 yrs old. Somewhat of a disservice I think. Im not sure how long she was in before she became a C/Col, but I dont think racing through the tests was the intent of the program.
It's a disservice at 15 as well IMHO.
We have age requirements for NCSAs, why not for progression? Mitchell no sooner than 15, Earhart at 16, Eaker at 17. Leaves a year for the Spaatz.
Otherwise, we have 15.16 year old Spaatz cadets as well. But they are the exception not the rule.
I agree...but on the other hand....since the system allows for it....someone anticipated that it could and maybe even should happen.
Bottom line is if a cadet has fulfilled the promotion requirements....then he/she should be promoted regardless of age.
Edit:
I also want to add...that the rules have changed from way back when to eliminate the possibilty for a 13 year old Spaatz. Today we have a more or less hard age of 12....it takes a minimun of 3 years 4 months (assuming no JROTC time). If a cadet joined on his 12th birthday and took and passed his Curry that night and then hit everything just right (at the 8 week mark) then he/she would be 15 years old and 4 months on the day he completes their Spaatz.
But let's call it. That almost never happens. Both by design and the aptitude of your average cadet.
Bottom line...is that the unit commander has the final say and each promotion has that leadership expectations. If a cadet is not ready don't promote....if he is promote.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 05:14:43 PM
There was a C/Col that was 13 yrs old. Somewhat of a disservice I think. Im not sure how long she was in before she became a C/Col, but I dont think racing through the tests was the intent of the program.
That can never happen again with the required test spacing, and I would like to think that the required wait times were in part a response to that situation.
Does anyone know if
she's even still active? That was 2 or three years ago, so she'd be about 15 or 16 now.
Edit: OK, it was a he, not a she. Apparently from Ohio. This thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=86.0 indicates the
article appeared in the March 05 Volunteer, so that cadet would be about 19 now.
Oh...THAT Cadet...
Funny thing, he went to the same NCSA as I did the year before. I'd say from what the cadets who went that year as well told the rest of us, he is a poster child for the rules we have now.
I joined CAP shortly after my 15th birthday. I don't know if it was the right time for me or not. I wasn't super into it at first and just muddled around for a few months. That was the environment of the squadron and I didn't know any better.
However, there were cadets older and younger than I and the maturity levels ranged across the board. I wouldn't call any of us fragile. I will say though, that the number of cadets joining at 16, 17 and 18 were practically none. By that time, they had already found what sports they were going to play, had girlfriends, cars, etc - which can obviously limit the pool of potential candidates.
Over the past decade, I have come to find out that joining anything at around the age of 12 can be a very positive experience on a child (or in our case, Cadet). It's around that age where they start going to schools with the "big kids" and can be exposed to things that their parents wouldn't be too happy about. They become smart about things on the internet, have just enough freedom to get themselves into some serious trouble, etc. It really is a growing period in their lives.
So you take a 12 year old and expose them to things like integrity, selflessness, community service, discipline, honor, etc and it's going to be a good thing.
What can happen though (I've had to fix it a few times), is that the older cadets become disconnected from the younger ones. The older ones don't want to put the effort in to teach a bunch of immature 12 year olds - forgetting that they were that group a mere three years ago. This can greatly affect the experience that the 12 year old gets, disenfranchising them from the program.
When it comes down to it, the greatest influence that will change a 12 year old's experience in our program is the senior leadership in their unit. If the senior leadership views them as immature 12 year olds that shouldn't be in the program, it's going to affect their experience. If the senior leadership is willing to put the effort in and conduct the program as designed, those immature 12 year olds will become mature 17 year old leaders with a bright future.
Also, as a young senior member, you can be an extremely valuable resource to your squadron's cadet program. Seniors in our age range <35 are kind of rare. This gives your unit the opportunity to have someone that can get out and do some really physically demanding stuff with the cadets. It's not so much that you'd be conducting all the lessons, etc but the enabler.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on February 24, 2010, 06:14:30 PM
Oh...THAT Cadet...
Funny thing, he went to the same NCSA as I did the year before. I'd say from what the cadets who went that year as well told the rest of us, he is a poster child for the rules we have now.
But that is kind of a good thing.
Even with the old rules that let a 10 year old in because he was in 6th grade....and was in one of those squadrons that promoted solely on the basis of test passage and no the whole person model.
It was just one person in the last 5 years.
On the other hand I have seen many 18-19-20 year old Eaker and Spaatz cadets who are not really all that great either.
Either way....delaying our access to potential cadets will only mean that we will never get access to a great majority of them. Once they hit high school it is a loosing battle with dateing, cars, jobs, band, sports, college prep.
Get them young and train them early.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 24, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
Get them young and train them early.
+1 I'd be more in favor of bringing them in a little earlier (maybe 11?), and cutting things off hard at 18. I think are biggest influence
is to cadets under 18, anyone older than that is reaching for some specific goal, but is likely already molded.
National Headquarters has a Nation Wide Recruiting Program to get Cadets into CAP though. We should have to do nothing but sit back and let them beat down our doors.
Man, we have 70 or so teens join every year because they saw a CAP recruiting commercial on TV. CAP is mentioned on radio and on fliers everywhere. I can not believe how much advertising Maxwell does for us.
Why even worry about one Cadet when we all have 100 more to replace that one Cadet at any time?
/sarcasm off
I joined a week before I turned 15, not too long after I learned about CAP. Fro me it was a good age, due to maturity issues, but joining earlier might have helped in that area. Or not. I certainly would have had more time to advance farther, although the program was significantly different back then. This was pre-Sorenson.
IIRC, there was a 13 year old female cadet in the Georgia wing that made C/Col. Her family was very active and she moved to Texas I believe. She was in the 10 year old/6th grade rule I believe. You know it would be hard to raise the age of cadets if you want to have these very successful middle school squadrons out there.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2010, 05:44:08 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 05:14:43 PM
There was a C/Col that was 13 yrs old. Somewhat of a disservice I think. Im not sure how long she was in before she became a C/Col, but I dont think racing through the tests was the intent of the program.
That can never happen again with the required test spacing, and I would like to think that the required wait times were in part a response to that situation.
Does anyone know if she's even still active? That was 2 or three years ago, so she'd be about 15 or 16 now.
Edit: OK, it was a he, not a she. Apparently from Ohio. This thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=86.0 indicates the
article appeared in the March 05 Volunteer, so that cadet would be about 19 now.
No, the cadet Im talking about was female. She was on the volunteer as well. Probably about 2 yrs ago. She got her Spaatz at age 13.
The female cadet is mentioned on page 4 of the link eclipse posted.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on February 24, 2010, 09:25:52 PM
The female cadet is mentioned on page 4 of the link eclipse posted.
OK, I really need to RTFM - the link above has nothing to do with this conversation, and I will go back and remember that the 13 yro Spaatzen was a female.
Anyone?
Her other accomplishments outside CAP were also impressive, according to the article. She likely had all the "right stuff" to legitimately earn her Spaatz.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 24, 2010, 09:58:42 PM
Her other accomplishments outside CAP were also impressive, according to the article. She likely had all the "right stuff" to legitimately earn her Spaatz.
No question, but does anyone know if she remained active?
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2010, 05:44:08 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 05:14:43 PM
There was a C/Col that was 13 yrs old. Somewhat of a disservice I think. Im not sure how long she was in before she became a C/Col, but I dont think racing through the tests was the intent of the program.
That can never happen again with the required test spacing, and I would like to think that the required wait times were in part a response to that situation.
Does anyone know if she's even still active? That was 2 or three years ago, so she'd be about 15 or 16 now.
Edit: OK, it was a he, not a she. Apparently from Ohio. This thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=86.0 indicates the
article appeared in the March 05 Volunteer, so that cadet would be about 19 now.
No, the cadet Im talking about was female. She was on the volunteer as well. Probably about 2 yrs ago. She got her Spaatz at age 13.
Yup... TXWG Encampment a few years ago if I remember correctly...
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 24, 2010, 04:49:55 PM
My son will be joining this August when he turns 12.
Does the unit still have that "spare" nameplate? ;-)
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on February 24, 2010, 05:29:08 PM
It's a disservice at 15 as well IMHO.
We have age requirements for NCSAs, why not for progression? Mitchell no sooner than 15, Earhart at 16, Eaker at 17. Leaves a year for the Spaatz.
My advice is don't try to fix what isn't broken. :)
There are subtleties to cadet progression that we aren't taking into account. Only in rare cases is progression perfectly linear. A middle-school cadet may rocket up to the Mitchell award in 2 years. But then they get into high school where they have much less available time for CAP. It may take them another 3-4 years to work their way up to the Eaker. Male cadet officers often stall out trying to pass the CPFT as the standards get tougher with age and grade. Others have trouble writing a proper essay or SDA and they take awhile to master those skills.
We also know that in general, young females mature faster than males. A 14 YO female will often master cadet officership more easily than her male counterpart, who is likely more comfortable being an action-oriented flight sergeant than a flight commander who is responsible for planning the quarterly training/activity agenda.
I wanted to join CAP since I was 6 years old. We had a hard time finding and contacting a unit until I was 13. I like to think that I would have made at least Eaker if I had been in a better unit. I think a cadet is not defined by his or her age, rank, grade, ES qualifications, encampments, etc... A whole person concept would be applied.
^ Whole person is usually the norm. Cadets are promoted (in theory) based on the "whole person" concept. Promotions are neither automatic or guaranteed.