Anybody know if the NHQ order listing of units with Unit Citations is on line, or where to get it?
There is no such resource.
It is more or less on the 'honor system.'
Somehow they usually manage to note how many prior citations the unit has received.
Actually, there is such a resource. I saw it years ago. It was a printed listing from NHQ, complete with order numer, dates and unit name. I just can't remember how or why I saw it and how to get a current copy. I do remember, however, that the last time I saw this list, it had been updated to reflect the Unit Citations awarded to NER and NY Wing for 9-11.
Perhaps it would be a good reference piece for the National CAP Museum because in the last couple of years, the Air Force developed an on-line registry reflecting the same unit citation information by unit.
Such an on-line reference, even if it was only in e-services, would also be a great resource to members who are researching if they are eligible for the ribbon. How many times do we have people transferring between wings and years later find out that they are entitled to the ribbon permanently.
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 21, 2010, 03:31:36 PM
Such an on-line reference, even if it was only in e-services, would also be a great resource to members who are researching if they are eligible for the ribbon. How many times do we have people transferring between wings and years later find out that they are entitled to the ribbon permanently.
You bring up a noteworthy point... as a cadet, personnel in my squadron were eligible to wear the unit citation award. After a lapse in CAP (as a patron member) with the result that my former squadron was disbanded and absorbed by another unit, I currently do not wear the unit citation ribbon because I wasn't sure if I was still eligible to display it... but I would like to learn of my eligibility.
If they gave you individual paperwork for it, you should be fine. If not, you would need something showing the unit got the award, then something showing that you were part of the unit when it got it. They used to publish unit citations in the old CAP News.
If you were part of the unit that was awarded the citation at the time it was awarded for..
For example, California Wing was awarded a unit citation for their participation in the Columbia event. If you were a member of CA-001 or subordinate units, you are authorized to wear the green ribbon, or stick a pin in it if you have one from prior.
There seems to be a lot of folks who dis the unit citation because "we didn't earn it, why should we wear it" type reasons.
Well.. maybe *you* didn't walk in the desert that day, or whatever else it was that triggered the recognition. But you are, as a member of that unit that earned it. By displaying it, you are able to show your *unit's* accomplishments. Plus the way it's supposed to work, everyone's job counts, everyones job contributes to further the mission. If thats what it means, you did in fact participate in that particular mission because of your participation, it meant someone else didn't have to do whatever and thus the calling could be answered.
('You', 'your', and derivatives are just used in third person referral context here, not singling out anyone)
Unit Citations are awarded from above, so if a unit is not in existence any longer, that scenario is most likely played out by a unit at the squadron or flight level, as a group or wing unit totally disbanding, and all paperwork vanishing, not very likely. So record of the award will exist above the chain, somewhere.
As for when you were a member of that unit, NHQ probably knows when you were, and what units you were.
So, if you were a member if CAWG during the Columbia mission window, and had transferred to some other wing after, you are entitled to wear the Unit Citation award as you meet that award criteria as described in the PA authorizing it's wear.
On the other hand, there were some members who causes a stir of the pot here, who were NOT part of CAWG at the time, not even sure if they were CAP at the time, but did participate in closer locale with the Columbia mission, and when the Unit Citation was awarded, they too, added it to their racks. Further discussion with them after being told "you were not members of CAWG during the period for which it was awarded.." and the answer was "but we participated in (one of the states where debris actually fell), collecting debris" (or similar, but albeit more direct participation). That reply implied understanding that they knew they were "bending" the meaning, and perhaps felt they were more deserving than those who were awarded it, and were not closer to the scene.
But.. the activity, and capacity they were participating in was probably not CAP, as if NHQ or Region recognized CAWG for it's support, I find it hard to believe that, if it were NHQ, they would not have also picked up NV, UT, AZ, CO, NM, TX, LA, MI, AL, FL.. possibly even GA, if those wings had participated at least as much as CAWG did. Or, if it was PCR that put in for it, that it would not have trickled to other regions, too.
I am NOT SAYING that these other wings did or did not get this, and am not debating the level of participation here, not at all. It's obvious other wings participated in greater detail due to proximity of the event. Just using this as a parallel example of awarding, and displaying of the award, and proper vs. improper wear.
The outcome of the particular scenario is not as relevant.
Thanx for the additional info about group(s) and wing(s) who may have been awarded the Unit Citation Award.
In my case (from a few decades ago), I just remember being chided by my cadet commander (at the time) for not wearing the unit citation ribbon on the Class A/B uniform... why we were eligible to wear it... I don't know, but from the discussion above, now I realize it might have been a group or wing-wide recognition award rather than just a squadron recognition thing. Unfortunately, my 201 file (as it was known then) is long gone!
Any mass-decoration should have a PA attached which details the members to which it applies.
If not, it's not being done correctly.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2010, 07:38:49 PM
Any mass-decoration should have a PA attached which details the members to which it applies.
If not, it's not being done correctly.
I would imagine that large wings like CA would kill a tree or two with the PA if the entire Wing got one.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 21, 2010, 08:14:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2010, 07:38:49 PM
Any mass-decoration should have a PA attached which details the members to which it applies.
If not, it's not being done correctly.
I would imagine that large wings like CA would kill a tree or two with the PA if the entire Wing got one.
Actually no trees are harmed, but we do kill off a whole bunch of electrons. ;)
CAWG quit printing PA's a few years ago. They get posted on the wing website. If you need a paper copy you download it and print it on your printer.
Quote from: PHall on February 21, 2010, 09:25:18 PM
Actually no trees are harmed, but we do kill off a whole bunch of electrons. ;)
CAWG quit printing PA's a few years ago. They get posted on the wing website. If you need a paper copy you download it and print it on your printer.
Just sayin'. >:D
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2010, 07:38:49 PM
Any mass-decoration should have a PA attached which details the members to which it applies.
If not, it's not being done correctly.
Well, NER (that's right, the entire region) got one back when I was a cadet, and there was never anything put in my 201 file. I "heard" about it a few times, but was never able to really confirm it until I was surfing around [urlhttp://ner.cap.gov/history.htm]here[/url] (scroll to bottom) and saw that the rumour was true. I checked with the Region admin folks, who sent me a verifying email that now resides in my record. I now wear it along with the others I got in CAWG.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 21, 2010, 08:14:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2010, 07:38:49 PM
Any mass-decoration should have a PA attached which details the members to which it applies.
If not, it's not being done correctly.
I would imagine that large wings like CA would kill a tree or two with the PA if the entire Wing got one.
Actually, the PAs I've seen just say the "members of the wing", and the lower units just enter it into the records.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 21, 2010, 09:58:00 PM
Well, NER (that's right, the entire region) got one back when I was a cadet, and there was never anything put in my 201 file. I "heard" about it a few times, but was never able to really confirm it until I was surfing around [urlhttp://ner.cap.gov/history.htm]here[/url] (scroll to bottom) and saw that the rumour was true. I checked with the Region admin folks, who sent me a verifying email that now resides in my record. I now wear it along with the others I got in CAWG.
Interesting. During/after 9/11, I was in patron status in NER-NY-001. I can't find anything in the regs that says that I am
not eligible for that unit citation. Can anyone else?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 21, 2010, 10:13:12 PMInteresting. During/after 9/11, I was in patron status in NER-NY-001. I can't find anything in the regs that says that I am not eligible for that unit citation. Can anyone else?
The only thing that might be relevant is this:
Quote from: CAPR 39-2 Chapter 3-1b(2)Patron Members may not:
[...]
c) Participate in CAP activities in any capacity except to attend specified conferences and social events outlined in paragraphs 3-1b(1)e and f
d) Be promoted while in patron status
It doesn't specifically say you cannot be awarded CAP special or professional development awards. Some may argue that the above quote would prohibit you from being awarded the Unit Citation given the fact that it wasn't allowed for you to be an active member (outside of social events) during the award period.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not your name was listed on the PA for the award. If the PA didn't list individual names, then it's probably your commander's call.
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 23, 2010, 12:32:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 21, 2010, 10:13:12 PMInteresting. During/after 9/11, I was in patron status in NER-NY-001. I can't find anything in the regs that says that I am not eligible for that unit citation. Can anyone else?
The only thing that might be relevant is this:
Quote from: CAPR 39-2 Chapter 3-1b(2)Patron Members may not:
[...]
c) Participate in CAP activities in any capacity except to attend specified conferences and social events outlined in paragraphs 3-1b(1)e and f
d) Be promoted while in patron status
It doesn't specifically say you cannot be awarded CAP special or professional development awards. Some may argue that the above quote would prohibit you from being awarded the Unit Citation given the fact that it wasn't allowed for you to be an active member (outside of social events) during the award period.
I'll see your 39-2 and raise you a 39-3:
Quote
SECTION A - GENERAL
5. Eligibility. A member must be in good standing at
the time of the distinguished act and must meet the
criteria established for the award.
Patron members are in good standing.
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 23, 2010, 12:32:59 AM
Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not your name was listed on the PA for the award. If the PA didn't list individual names, then it's probably your commander's call.
Region award - and I now am no longer in that Region - I'm not sure how a Commander in another region could easily make such a judgment call.
I'm not planning on wearing it (perhaps that's another debate -- should I? Unit pride and all versus not being there at the time), but given that I couldn't find much guidance on it, thought I would seek the opinions of my fellow Barracks Lawyers. :)
I really wish they would track that stuff as part of individual records at National. I genuinely have no idea how many unit citations I was part of. :/
By definition, Patron members do not contribute anything but financial support and certainly don't qualify for any awards or decorations.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
By definition, Patron members do not contribute anything but financial support and certainly don't qualify for any awards or decorations.
Cite please. That's what I am looking for. 39-3 only mentions members in good standing, which any dues paying member is.
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 21, 2010, 03:31:36 PM
Actually, there is such a resource. I saw it years ago. It was a printed listing from NHQ, complete with order numer, dates and unit name. I just can't remember how or why I saw it and how to get a current copy. I do remember, however, that the last time I saw this list, it had been updated to reflect the Unit Citations awarded to NER and NY Wing for 9-11.
You could always give national a call and request the list directly.
If you get them to send it to you, please post it here so we can all print off a copy.
I tried that once, and was told that they had no "list" as such. There was no consolidated record available.