I'm looking for recommendations for a good general-purpose compass that is suitable for UDF map work as well as ground team land navigation. I've researched the pros and cons of the baseplate and lensatic compass types, but I'd like some input from those who have "been there and done that" before dropping coin on something that will be with me for a long time. I'd also like to have a little more to go on besides "cuz I said so" when making recommendations to my cadets.
I personally have one of these: http://www.thecompassstore.com/dakar.html
It's kind of the best of both worlds lensatic and orienteering. It works well so far. I think I got it at Wal-Mart for about $20.00...
You can get a pretty good idea of all the different types available here: http://www.thecompassstore.com/
The choices will give you a headache trying to compare them.
Almost 25 years of orienteering and I've only used the Silva Ranger. (http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html)
I used it extensively for ground ops in CAP, as a grunt in the Infantry and even during a few airfield assessments outside of the US. It works and it rocks.
(http://media.rei.com/media/408031Lrg.jpg)
This winner of the 2003 Backpacker Magazine 's Editors' Choice Gold Award keeps you moving in the right direction!
•This precise azimuth compass has a sighting mirror for taking accurate and quick bearings--great for serious and avid users
•Liquid-filled rotating capsule with anti-static liquid stops needle swing in less than 4 seconds-- sapphire-jeweled needle for friction-free movement
•Adjustable declination accounts for difference between true and magnetic north; lanyard key locks adjusted declination into place
•Sighting mirror with vee notch allows quick bearing acquisition on landmarks and also folds down to protect compass
•Includes a clinometer to measure slope angles- useful to winter travelers to help estimate danger on avalanche-prone slopes
•Features luminous points for better viewing, silicon map grippers on base, and meridian lines to help orient compass to map
•Uses 0 - 360 degree azimuth scale in 2-degree increments
•Includes has a removable 15 inch lanyard (30 inch circumference) with declination adjustment screwdriver
•Guaranteed to be accurate -40- +140 degrees Fahrenheit
•Meets or exceeds all forest service and military standards
I use both orinteering silva types and military lensantic.
There is no real best.....a lot depends on personal peference.
I find the lensatic is most helpful in the field...getting accurate bearings, and finding spot on distant targets....but it is a real pain doing planning and plotting on the map.
The one rule of thumb I will say is that you get what you pay for. Don't worry about the add ons, and fancy mirrors and magnifiers.....put the money into the basic compass.
AHHH yes ..the Silva Ranger Model 15 or Silva Ranger w/ clinometer used by many a Forester and firefighter nationwide
Now we still have the choice between Silva, Suunto and others
Silva Ranger and the TRUE GI "lenstatic" compasses....... swell pieces of equipment that will help pull ones fanny out of a fix!
I agree with Stonewall. I've had one for many years and I like it very much. I recommend it to people often.
Military Lensatic all the way!
With that said, it's totally personal preference. I also have a Silva Ranger, as the mirror setup can really come in handy.
Quote from: TACP on February 16, 2010, 08:38:42 AM
I also have a Silva Ranger, as the mirror setup can really come in handy.
I'll out myself as being compass-ignorant by asking what makes the mirror particularly handy? Grooming, signalling, or something else entirely?
^^^
More accurate bearing readings and the vertical line for lining up objects in distance, and reading the reciprocal, at least that is what I was taught.
The old saying? The mirror was for looking at the person who got themselves lost in the first place!
Someone here may have a better answer
Quote from: heliodoc on February 16, 2010, 01:53:20 PM
More accurate bearing readings and the vertical line for lining up objects in distance, and reading the reciprocal, at least that is what I was taught.
That!
Also, something not mentioned in my description of the Silva Ranger above is the scales of 1:24,000, 1:25,000, and 1:50,000 , it makes plotting easy no matter which type of topographic map you're using. This, to me, was one of the best features of the compass. Generally I used these 3 scales of map which meant I never had to carry along a protractor made by "Lighthouse for the Deaf and Blind".
Not at a full keyboard or i'd get the link for you.
Brunton sightmaster is the holy grail. Although not appropriate for map work.
Add a $10 silva orienteering and you're set.
I mentioned elsewhere that I had a Silva Ranger in with all that other stuff I got in the TAC gear I bought, and it sat for a couple years
because it wasn't as "hardkewl" looking as my nam-era Army lensatic.
While trimming down gear on a SAREx, I pulled it out and figured I'd try it and toss it.
Huge difference in accuracy, ease of use, alignment of the pointer on a fixed target, you name it. Its now compass #1 on my list.
Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
Almost 25 years of orienteering and I've only used the Silva Ranger. (http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html)
I used it extensively for ground ops in CAP, as a grunt in the Infantry and even during a few airfield assessments outside of the US. It works and it rocks.
(http://media.rei.com/media/408031Lrg.jpg)
This winner of the 2003 Backpacker Magazine 's Editors' Choice Gold Award keeps you moving in the right direction!
•This precise azimuth compass has a sighting mirror for taking accurate and quick bearings--great for serious and avid users
•Liquid-filled rotating capsule with anti-static liquid stops needle swing in less than 4 seconds-- sapphire-jeweled needle for friction-free movement
•Adjustable declination accounts for difference between true and magnetic north; lanyard key locks adjusted declination into place
•Sighting mirror with vee notch allows quick bearing acquisition on landmarks and also folds down to protect compass
•Includes a clinometer to measure slope angles- useful to winter travelers to help estimate danger on avalanche-prone slopes
•Features luminous points for better viewing, silicon map grippers on base, and meridian lines to help orient compass to map
•Uses 0 - 360 degree azimuth scale in 2-degree increments
•Includes has a removable 15 inch lanyard (30 inch circumference) with declination adjustment screwdriver
•Guaranteed to be accurate -40- +140 degrees Fahrenheit
•Meets or exceeds all forest service and military standards
I like it but the price is little high where can I find it cheaper.
Quote from: capcadetwilliams on February 16, 2010, 05:00:19 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
Almost 25 years of orienteering and I've only used the Silva Ranger. (http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html)
I used it extensively for ground ops in CAP, as a grunt in the Infantry and even during a few airfield assessments outside of the US. It works and it rocks.
(http://media.rei.com/media/408031Lrg.jpg)
This winner of the 2003 Backpacker Magazine 's Editors' Choice Gold Award keeps you moving in the right direction!
•This precise azimuth compass has a sighting mirror for taking accurate and quick bearings--great for serious and avid users
•Liquid-filled rotating capsule with anti-static liquid stops needle swing in less than 4 seconds-- sapphire-jeweled needle for friction-free movement
•Adjustable declination accounts for difference between true and magnetic north; lanyard key locks adjusted declination into place
•Sighting mirror with vee notch allows quick bearing acquisition on landmarks and also folds down to protect compass
•Includes a clinometer to measure slope angles- useful to winter travelers to help estimate danger on avalanche-prone slopes
•Features luminous points for better viewing, silicon map grippers on base, and meridian lines to help orient compass to map
•Uses 0 - 360 degree azimuth scale in 2-degree increments
•Includes has a removable 15 inch lanyard (30 inch circumference) with declination adjustment screwdriver
•Guaranteed to be accurate -40- +140 degrees Fahrenheit
•Meets or exceeds all forest service and military standards
I like it but the price is little high where can I find it cheaper.
Try Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silva+ranger)
Quote from: davidsinn on February 16, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: capcadetwilliams on February 16, 2010, 05:00:19 PM
I like it but the price is little high where can I find it cheaper.
Try Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silva+ranger)
First off, Capt Sinn, you owe my company a new keyboard and some paperwork that is now soaked with water that flew out my nose.
Secondly, Cadet Williams, I think I bought my Silva Ranger for about $50 almost 20 years ago. That means it cost me about $2.50 a year to own.
^^
Same here another 6 to 10 dinero for a leather carry case
Any cheaper one is lucky...make sure its not a Tijuana knock off
Quote from: Stonewall on February 16, 2010, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 16, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: capcadetwilliams on February 16, 2010, 05:00:19 PM
I like it but the price is little high where can I find it cheaper.
Try Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silva+ranger)
First off, Capt Sinn, you owe my company a new keyboard and some paperwork that is now soaked with water that flew out my nose.
Secondly, Cadet Williams, I think I bought my Silva Ranger for about $50 almost 20 years ago. That means it cost me about $2.50 a year to own.
Send the invoice to Eclipse. I got the idea from him months ago and have been waiting for juuuuuust the right moment. ;D
One cool thing that the Silva Ranger has (it's mentioned above) is it comes with a mini-key that allows you to adjust for the declination on the compass. That's awesome if you're working in a single area, but you'll have to adjust it if you leave.
There are very few pieces of equipment that I am adamant about, one of them is this compass. It has NEVER failed me and has traveled the globe, been in extreme cold/hot conditions, wet, submerged and in the highest of altitudes. I used it at NESA, Hawk, Bosnia, Laos, Florida, Shenandoah Mountains and most recently in Alpena, MI.
That said, added another piece of kit that I never leave home without. This came into my life about 5 years ago and is always strapped to my wrist when in the field. It's simple and is reliable. But like with everything that depends on batteries or a good line of site with satellites, it will fail you.
But this is the one I recommend the Garmin Foretrex 101:
(http://www.expertgps.com/gps-receivers/images/Garmin-Foretrex-101.jpg)
(http://www.tramsoft.com/gps/garmin_foretrex101_overview_en.jpg)
I never go to a CAP activity w/o my Garmin III+ - ancient and reliable, but these days most decent cell phones have a GPS and a compass
which is adequate for land nav if not more pinpoint use.
You gotta love convergence.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
I never go to a CAP activity w/o my Garmin III+ - ancient and reliable, but these days most decent cell phones have a GPS and a compass
which is adequate for land nav if not more pinpoint use.
You gotta love convergence.
iPhone 3G/3GS = UDF force multiplier.
Look up tail #'s online, check regs, plot lat/longs in Maps, make calls, monitor weather, find the nearest gas/coffee/donuts, get the number for the FBO, lookup data on any airfield, take mission notes (like serial number, battery exp. date, etc), capture the lat/long of the ELT for the IC (heck, snap a picture), and email it all before you even leave the find site. :)
Oh, then add that find to your "Find" database on Google Docs. :)
The 3GS has a GPS *and* a digital compass.
Not to mention that if you enable Latitude you can track the team in real-time from the ICP.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 06:36:20 PM
Not to mention that if you enable Latitude you can track the team in real-time from the ICP.
There's a few tools for that, but the eat battery pretty quicky, so I would only use them if it was requested. Used it last year during a UDF during Sun & Fun and they knew where we were at all times.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 06:38:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 06:36:20 PM
Not to mention that if you enable Latitude you can track the team in real-time from the ICP.
There's a few tools for that, but they eat battery pretty quicky, so I would only use them if it was requested. Used it last year during a UDF during Sun & Fun and they knew where we were at all times.
Time to get a real phone with a high-capacity, replaceable battery!
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
I never go to a CAP activity w/o my Garmin III+ - ancient and reliable, but these days most decent cell phones have a GPS and a compass
which is adequate for land nav if not more pinpoint use.
You gotta love convergence.
iPhone 3G/3GS = UDF force multiplier.
Look up tail #'s online, check regs, plot lat/longs in Maps, make calls, monitor weather, find the nearest gas/coffee/donuts, get the number for the FBO, lookup data on any airfield, take mission notes (like serial number, battery exp. date, etc), capture the lat/long of the ELT for the IC (heck, snap a picture), and email it all before you even leave the find site. :)
Oh, then add that find to your "Find" database on Google Docs. :)
The 3GS has a GPS *and* a digital compass.
I can do all of that and more with the sole exception of the compass with my HTC Touch Pro 2. I also can get cell service with it too as I'm not tied to ATT >:D Did I mention every single spec on mine is better and the thing is cheaper? ;D
Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
Almost 25 years of orienteering and I've only used the Silva Ranger. (http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html)
How do you use that compass? Is the mirror so you can look at the needle and adjust the bezel while you're finding an azimuth?
I have a Cammenga lensatic compass that has served me pretty well. I also keep a Silva Starter in my pack for map work along with a variety of gridders from maptools.com.
Quote from: davidsinn on February 16, 2010, 07:03:05 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
I never go to a CAP activity w/o my Garmin III+ - ancient and reliable, but these days most decent cell phones have a GPS and a compass
which is adequate for land nav if not more pinpoint use.
You gotta love convergence.
iPhone 3G/3GS = UDF force multiplier.
Look up tail #'s online, check regs, plot lat/longs in Maps, make calls, monitor weather, find the nearest gas/coffee/donuts, get the number for the FBO, lookup data on any airfield, take mission notes (like serial number, battery exp. date, etc), capture the lat/long of the ELT for the IC (heck, snap a picture), and email it all before you even leave the find site. :)
Oh, then add that find to your "Find" database on Google Docs. :)
The 3GS has a GPS *and* a digital compass.
I can do all of that and more with the sole exception of the compass with my HTC Touch Pro 2. I also can get cell service with it too as I'm not tied to ATT >:D Did I mention every single spec on mine is better and the thing is cheaper? ;D
Let's not go there... I'll win, and it's more fun debating the regs. :)
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 07:40:09 PM
Let's not go there... I'll win, and it's more fun debating the regs. :)
Against Windows Mobile - maybe, against my G1, you're eating dust, buddy, and you don't even want to look a Droid or a Nexus One in the eye, but yes, back to the compass.
You align your fixed object in the v-goove at the top of the mirror and use the mirror to read the compass.
Last night I happen to be playing with My Touch Android phone before driving home. I found there is a Navigate under Google Maps. So I tried it compared to my Garmin Nuvi 760. H O L Y C O W! It was more accuarate than the Garmin!
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 07:44:51 PM
You align your fixed object in the v-goove at the top of the mirror and use the mirror to read the compass.
So, aside from the single aimpoint, you're fiddling with the bezel too? I think I might prefer my military lensatic with the moving numbers.
But, to each their own. :)
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on February 16, 2010, 07:51:22 PM
Last night I happen to be playing with My Touch Android phone before driving home. I found there is a Navigate under Google Maps. So I tried it compared to my Garmin Nuvi 760. H O L Y C O W! It was more accuarate than the Garmin!
Yeah, turn-by-turn with voice rocks - add GPS manufacturer to the list of businesses not to be in anymore..
Quote from: N Harmon on February 16, 2010, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2010, 07:44:51 PM
You align your fixed object in the v-goove at the top of the mirror and use the mirror to read the compass.
So, aside from the single aimpoint, you're fiddling with the bezel too? I think I might prefer my military lensatic with the moving numbers.
But, to each their own. :)
It works the same as a lensatic in that respect, only one thing moves.
Quote from: N Harmon on February 16, 2010, 07:31:05 PM
Is the mirror so you can look at the needle and adjust the bezel while you're finding an azimuth?
Yes. Is pretty useful on the planes where you see only grass for miles and miles and miles, but in the mountains/forested area it doesn't really matter that much. The mirror basically makes it function more like an orienteering compass.
Really, the only thing I tell my cadets when they're looking for a compass is to keep it simple, and find one that doesn't have any air bubbles in it. The problem I've seen with Silvia Orienteering compasses are that a lot of them already have an air bubble under the spiny dial, rendering it useless before you even buy it (was trying to buy one at Sportsman's Warehouse, and all 3 compasses they had on the rack had an air bubble).
So to sum up my compass-buying advice: stay cheap, make sure you can read the bearing down to a 1 degree accuracy (so 2 deg tick marks are okay), and make sure the compass doesn't have any air bubbles in the liquid before you buy it. Extra bells and whistles are nice, but ultimately not necessary.
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 16, 2010, 07:59:56 PM
find one that doesn't have any air bubbles in it.
Just for edification purposes, what's the reason behind that? I presume inaccuracy, but don't know exactly why.
Too bad we can't have a smartphone smackdown thread.. Could be entertaining. >:D
Quote from: N Harmon on February 16, 2010, 07:31:05 PMHow do you use that compass? Is the mirror so you can look at the needle and adjust the bezel while you're finding an azimuth?
The mirror is almost irrelevant as far as I am concerned and as far as land nav is concerned, but I do use it for other things (applying camo, popping a zit, making sure my nose is clean). On the mirror itself is a solid black line with a notch at the end of it to assist you in a more accurate azimuth.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 16, 2010, 07:59:56 PM
find one that doesn't have any air bubbles in it.
Just for edification purposes, what's the reason behind that? I presume inaccuracy, but don't know exactly why.
Yes, inaccuracy. Especially if you have a floating platform dial, the air bubble prevents that from freely spinning, thus resulting in bearings that can be 90 or more degrees off. So if you have air bubbles in your orienteering compass (as these use the circular platform) your compass is basically trash.
It's not as critical in a needle compass if you're careful, just ensure that your air bubble is well away from your needle so that it will turn freely in the liquid and you'll be okay. But don't intentionally buy a compass with this problem, as it's a PITA to deal with sometimes.
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 16, 2010, 08:22:57 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 16, 2010, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: Pingree1492 on February 16, 2010, 07:59:56 PM
find one that doesn't have any air bubbles in it.
Just for edification purposes, what's the reason behind that? I presume inaccuracy, but don't know exactly why.
Yes, inaccuracy. Especially if you have a floating platform dial, the air bubble prevents that from freely spinning, thus resulting in bearings that can be 90 or more degrees off. So if you have air bubbles in your orienteering compass (as these use the circular platform) your compass is basically trash.
It's not as critical in a needle compass if you're careful, just ensure that your air bubble is well away from your needle so that it will turn freely in the liquid and you'll be okay. But don't intentionally buy a compass with this problem, as it's a PITA to deal with sometimes.
Cool, thanks. I'll have to check the knock-off of the $50 one posted above that I bought to see if it's got any air.
There are a few compasses in the PX.. Might have to check out what they carry here just for the heck of it. Might be interesting to put the iPhone's to the test with it.
Regarding bubbles, I had one develop in a Silva Ranger that was large enough to make the compass unusable. A friend told me that Silva compasses are guaranteed for life. I called Sliva and they said to send it back to them. For the cost of postage to send it to them, they sent me in return a brand new replacement. They discuss this on their website:
We intend that our compasses are free of bubbles; however, if a small bubble forms in the liquid-filled capsule, it has no influence on the accuracy of the compass. Its appearance and disappearance are due to changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure. If a bubble larger than 1/4" in diameter appears, it is probably the result of a leaking capsule, usually caused by some form of shock damage, and the capsule will have to be replaced. In that case, just call our customer satisfaction department for a return authorization number and shipping address. From the U.S.A, call 1-800-572-8822 between 8 am-6 pm, eastern time. From Canada, call 1-800-263-6390.
I own two Rangers. The use of the sighting feature is beneficial for long range bearings (azimuths) and for more accurate short range ones. And yes, the mirror comes in handy for the other uses mentioned, as well as for signaling and detecting breathing. I also own a Suunto sighting compass, that isn't made anymore, which can be read to a 1/2 degree. It looks like the current model KB-14 but with a plastic case and the specs of a KB-20. http://www.suunto.com/en/Products/#filter=897 I have these because I do custom mapping work which requires additional accuracy but not enough for surveying equipment.
For general land nav, the Suunto for sure is overkill and the added accuracy of the sighting feature on the Ranger may or may not be necessary. This feature can be useful for long range DFing, which most people never have to do, and in which the accuracy of the DFing is generally worse than the accuracy of the compass (several degrees on the DFing vs the 2 degree increment on the compass). I also teach land nav courses in which accurate bearings/azimuths are a big help.
Mike
It is all about training and farmiliarization. The orienteering compass takes about 10 hours to become proficieint with and the Lensatic takes about 50-70 (Per the DOD). If you have the time to commit the extra 40-60 hours it does not really matter as they both have a needle that points north.
V/R
Lt J.
A lot of good points here. I am more familiar with the military lensatic
compass and prefer using it. I have used Silva Compasses and they are simple to use. I keep a very small Silva in my map case for general direction finding. When I was at PJOC the PJ's all used the Silva Compasses. I would warn anybody not to buy a Military Type or
Military Style Lensatic Compass from Wal-Mart, etc.. Make sure you buy a Lensatic that is made by Stocker and Yale or Cammenga. Make sure the dial rotates without any hesitation when the compass is held level if new or used. I have bought used military issue lensatics that worked fine. Good luck.
Quote from: sardak on February 17, 2010, 04:38:58 AM
Regarding bubbles, I had one develop in a Silva Ranger that was large enough to make the compass unusable. A friend told me that Silva compasses are guaranteed for life. I called Sliva and they said to send it back to them. For the cost of postage to send it to them, they sent me in return a brand new replacement. They discuss this on their website:
We intend that our compasses are free of bubbles; however, if a small bubble forms in the liquid-filled capsule, it has no influence on the accuracy of the compass. Its appearance and disappearance are due to changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure. If a bubble larger than 1/4" in diameter appears, it is probably the result of a leaking capsule, usually caused by some form of shock damage, and the capsule will have to be replaced. In that case, just call our customer satisfaction department for a return authorization number and shipping address. From the U.S.A, call 1-800-572-8822 between 8 am-6 pm, eastern time. From Canada, call 1-800-263-6390.
[...]
Mike
That's pretty cool, thanks for the info. Maybe it's the altitude that most compasses I see tend to have a bubble or two in them. It's actually why I made the switch to using a lensatic compass after the case on my hand-me-down military orienteering compass cracked, and became unusable.
Compasses are fine and all, but I want to know what UNIFORM looks best while using a compass! >:D Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Seriously, I have a Brunton Eclipse and Pingree1492 educated me about the air bubble(s) in mine. The thing is usually accurate, but the air bubble does cause it to read as much as 20 degrees off once in a while. No point in using it if I have to rely on a second compass for a confidence check. This thread reminds me to buy a new compass.
I think the correct uniform to wear would be the PWHM uniform.
You could also wear so much gear if you drop the compass you would
fall over trying to pick it up and be crushed, or all the gear would change the reading on your compass. I know I couldn't resist either :P ;)
I too, use a Silva Ranger. The thing just works.
Watch out.. when buying a compass at a store that generally doesn't sell that sort of thing. Even the sporting goods section of Wally World.. the day you have the cashier there that does not normally do that dept.
Oh, this is a $50 item.. it probably has the anti-theft tag in it..
.. scan.. and then over the deactivator pad .. ;-)
D'oh!