The Air Force Academy is accepting Druids and Wiccans:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100201/ap_on_re_us/us_air_force_academy_earth_religion_3
Will CAP have to find some Druid Chaplains to keep up with our AF brethren?
Major Lord
With the title of this thread, for a moment, I thought I was fired!! :o :o
When I heard about this, my first thought was: "I wonder how many Wiccans and Druids are in the Academy?" The few that I have met, have tended to be fairly liberal and not exactly the military/military friendly types. My second thought was: "Does the demand justify the cost?" I guess if the space has multiple uses such as a park or reflection area I really don't have a big problem with it; but I suspect it's a solution looking for a problem...
I happen to know a few Wiccans and found that they are fairly conservative, and supportive of the military; so I take it that they have just as much political diversity, as any other <insert group here> has.
http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123187157 (http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123187157)
Here's the AF's article. A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American. I really don't like the comment from the CAP "MLO". I popped off a message to his wing chaplain expressing my distaste with his comment. I don't know if anything will come of it.
Almost forgot to mention that I heard almost 6% of AF officers are pagan so this seems a little over due to me.
Quote from: DogCollar on February 03, 2010, 01:02:25 PM
With the title of this thread, for a moment, I thought I was fired!! :o :o
Nahh, you can stay, you will just have to slaughter an animal ritualistically on Beltaine......
Major Lord
Quote from: davidsinn on February 03, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
Here's the AF's article. A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American. I really don't like the comment from the CAP "MLO". I popped off a message to his wing chaplain expressing my distaste with his comment. I don't know if anything will come of it.
ummm....what?!?! What place it is of yours to do that. here is what he said;
QuoteAs a volunteer lay chaplain with my local VA Medical Ctr and a moral Leaderhip Officer in the Civil Air Patrol I am appalled at such travesty to allow pagan worship at the AF Military Academy. Shame on the Chaplains for allowing this to go forward. Paganism has no place in our military protocol.
That is his opinion on a letter response board of hundreds of other personal opinions. Just like your opinion is "A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American", should I call your boss and tell him that you are easily "disturbed".
An apology should be sent to that Officer and his Command. You stepped past the line on this issue.
Within the last couple of years Arlington as well as all other VA and military cemetaries have started engraving Wiccan and Pagan symbols on tommbstones just as they have done for Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and Buddhist tombstones.
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:32:33 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 03, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
Here's the AF's article. A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American. I really don't like the comment from the CAP "MLO". I popped off a message to his wing chaplain expressing my distaste with his comment. I don't know if anything will come of it.
ummm....what?!?! What place it is of yours to do that. here is what he said;
QuoteAs a volunteer lay chaplain with my local VA Medical Ctr and a moral Leaderhip Officer in the Civil Air Patrol I am appalled at such travesty to allow pagan worship at the AF Military Academy. Shame on the Chaplains for allowing this to go forward. Paganism has no place in our military protocol.
That is his opinion on a letter response board of hundreds of other personal opinions. Just like your opinion is "A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American", should I call your boss and tell him that you are easily "disturbed".
An apology should be sent to that Officer and his Command. You stepped past the line on this issue.
Really? I don't think so. I think that person just made CAP look like it's part of some lunatic Christian fringe. What right did he have to mention CAP?
He can keep his bigoted views to himself, or at least as his own, without bringing in CAP into it.
^ Since others posted their names and positions in the military, it makes it OK to say what he does. It gives his argument supportive backing.
If we are going to play this game (retribution for what one posts), I guess I need to start writing letters to employers that were not spoken well of on Facebook and Myspace.
Remember a person is entitled to say or write what they think. However, it is not right to take what a persons says about a subject to the employer in hopes of causing some type of trouble. That is petty and small minded. Especially when the topic discussed has no bearing on CAP whatsoever.
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:52:21 PM
Especially when the topic discussed has no bearing on CAP whatsoever.
And THAT's why his superiors should be contacted. He wants to show his AmTal views? Fine by me. Bringing in CAP to somehow justify his views is not.
Is this what this "MLO" does at meetings? Will he now tell cadets not to apply to the AFA? We don't NEED people like him in the program. CAP is not Christian. CAP is not Jewish or Muslim or any Mainstream Religion. CAP is without religion.
But maybe it's the Atheist in me that feels closer to the "witches and pagans" than Christians simply because they don't want to burn me at the stake or send me to hell?
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on February 03, 2010, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:52:21 PM
Especially when the topic discussed has no bearing on CAP whatsoever.
Is this what this "MLO" does at meetings? Will he now tell cadets not to apply to the AFA? We don't NEED people like him in the program. CAP is not Christian. CAP is not Jewish or Muslim or any Mainstream Religion. CAP is without religion.
If CAP is without religion then why is there CAP Chaplains at at all?
What is a Druid?
One thing I have after taking command of an Army Company and moving up to CAP Wing Staff. You canhave your opinion but you must be careful what you say in public which includes these boards.
As a Company Commander, I cant just say what I feel because it relays an impression on soldiers.
Heck, I made a comment on CAPTalk about my views on hazing and caught flack from it. I represent 800 plus cadets so I have be carefulwhat I say.
So although I agree that the MLO has a right to his opinion, he needs to be careful about where and when he expresses that opinion.
Lets say for example that I was a Wiccan (which I am not,heck I dont even know what it is) And I knew this MLO's personal opinions of wiccans, would I feel comfortable talking to him or going to him? probably not. iit carries unnecessary stress.
Just like if the POTUS says one thing it is blown out of proportion. When you are you in thepublic eye or in an influential position, youhave to be careful of what you say. People want the glory of being a VIP, but they don't want the responsibility.
Now my personal opinion is I think all Americans have a right to religious freedom. I myself am Christian but I don't want to criticize anyone else for their belief.
And to say that all Wiccans and Druids are liberal is a label that I cant stand. Why do we have to break people down into either liberal or conservative. Republican or Democrat. There are mixtures of both in most people. Only a few percentage are extreme in both directions. We tend to polticalize everything and everybody. Cant we just live?
I was listening to Shan hannity onetime and he said that Democrats were not patriotic and the GOP was more patriotic. i called in and told him that I was a strong Democrat and had been in the military for 15 years so what does That make me? he tried to cut around my statement but I held strong and demanded an apology which he gave..
Guess what? There are liberals in the military. There are democrats in the military. We love our country just like everybody else(I am not a liberal btw) . And I am darn sure that there are Christians, Muslims, and Atheists in the military as well. Unfortunately some people are still old school and believe that you HAVE to be Christian and Republican in order to be a real American. Its unfortunate but what can you do? They have a right to their opinion just like we have a Right to ours.
To make the statement that Atheist should not serve is unfortunate as well. But heylets just all get along.
And that is the uplifting word for today. ;D
There are Chaplains there for the individuals. Just like the military.
In 7 years I've never started a meeting with a prayer, have you?
Quote from: JK657 on February 03, 2010, 04:21:13 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on February 03, 2010, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:52:21 PM
Especially when the topic discussed has no bearing on CAP whatsoever.
Is this what this "MLO" does at meetings? Will he now tell cadets not to apply to the AFA? We don't NEED people like him in the program. CAP is not Christian. CAP is not Jewish or Muslim or any Mainstream Religion. CAP is without religion.
If CAP is without religion then why is there CAP Chaplains at at all?
Actually religionis NOT the reson we have CAP nor military Chaplians. They are there for moral support. To comfort. To counsel. Not to promote their religion. If that were the case then a Christian Chaplain could not counsel a jewish soldier but they do it all the time. or Jewish Chaplain could not counsel a Muslim soldier but they do it all the time. They are there for support and comfort.
In regards to the CAP MLO's comments, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we do expect certain things from folks in CAP.
Just off hand, the actual words, not to mention the tone and gist of his statement, seem to me to show a lack of understanding of CAP's Core Values.
In addition to Volunteer Service, CAP's Core Values include: Excellence, Integrity, and, especially in this instance, Respect. I can see a conflict between the MLO's statement and at least one core value, and possibly as many as three.
The Core Values aren't just something to write on recruiting posters, they are real guidance for how CAP functions, and how its members interact.
We would all do well to pay a little more attention to those Core Values, they are pretty good guidance for life outside of CAP as well as within.
Thom
Druids were ancient Celts, and practiced ( as much as anyone can really verify) a sort of pantheistic, naturalistic religion. Many of their practices involved human sacrifice. The modern day practice of Halloween has much more to do with the Druids then the Christians, and involved Druid priests seizing your virgin daughters ( the "treat") or burning your house down ( the "trick") Stonehenge apparently had some connection to the Druids, although what it was used for is a matter of some conjecture. It was probably not a car wash.
Wiccans are a hybrid of Witchcraft, Gaea Worship, (Earth Mother God) and Naturist Beliefs. Although most deny their links to Satanism, its pretty thinly veiled, and its more of an agglomeration of beliefs which tend to justify their sometimes "freethinking" sexual practices.
I think that we in CAP should take a strong, courageous, and moral stand, and just say, Well, ritual human sacrifice is just unacceptable in CAP!" Some may have strong views to the contrary. Animal Sacrifice should be okay if carried out by a Chaplain whenever possible. ( I have to admit, that many Rabbits and chickens have met an untimely end at the hands of Cadet Survival School students)
Major Lord
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:32:33 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 03, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
Here's the AF's article. A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American. I really don't like the comment from the CAP "MLO". I popped off a message to his wing chaplain expressing my distaste with his comment. I don't know if anything will come of it.
ummm....what?!?! What place it is of yours to do that. here is what he said;
QuoteAs a volunteer lay chaplain with my local VA Medical Ctr and a moral Leaderhip Officer in the Civil Air Patrol I am appalled at such travesty to allow pagan worship at the AF Military Academy. Shame on the Chaplains for allowing this to go forward. Paganism has no place in our military protocol.
That is his opinion on a letter response board of hundreds of other personal opinions. Just like your opinion is "A lot of the comments are disturbing to me as an American", should I call your boss and tell him that you are easily "disturbed".
An apology should be sent to that Officer and his Command. You stepped past the line on this issue.
No apology will be forthcoming from me for sending the message I did. He posted his affiliation with our organization and the chaplaincy and then made comments contrary to what both stand for. He needs to be counseled on what his responsibilities are as a CDI and an officer.
Quote from: Spike on February 03, 2010, 03:52:21 PM
^ Since others posted their names and positions in the military, itmakes it OK to say what he does. It gives his argument supportivebacking.
It doesn't give his argument supportive backing as his statements are contrary to what we stand for.
If you wish to call my boss and tell him I am disturbed by those comments call my group commander not my UCC as he has taken a brief leave do to a personal matter and I'm acting commander.
If there are consequences to sending that message then so be it. I signed it. I own it. And I stand by it.
Getting back to the original question in this thread.
No, don't need any "new" Chaplians. The existing Chaplains will get an orientation on who/what the Druids are and what Chaplain services they may require.
Just like they do for every other religion.....
Chaplains are expected to be flexible and "fill in" for Chaplains of other faiths when they are not available.
I will fight to the death for an individuals' right of free speech. However, the respondant to the AF link identified himself as a Volunteer Chaplain with the VA and a MLO with the Civil Air Patrol. By giving such identifiers he says that the VA and CAP have shaped his opinion that what has been done at the Air Force Academy is wrong. While I don't have an issue with his exercise of his free speech, he has carelessly lumped all of us in the CAP Chaplain Corps as agreeing with his position. The Chaplain Corps position is to welcome and minister to all CAP members regardless of their religious identification or non-religious identification. This is specifically articulated in the CAP Chaplain Code of Ethics CAPR-265-1. To the best of my knowledge Character Development Officers are also bound by the ethic of pluralistic ministry.
Quote from: PHall on February 03, 2010, 05:24:31 PM
Getting back to the original question in this thread.
No, don't need any "new" Chaplians. The existing Chaplains will get an orientation on who/what the Druids are and what Chaplain services they may require.
Just like they do for every other religion.....
Chaplains are expected to be flexible and "fill in" for Chaplains of other faiths when they are not available.
If a Druid or Wiccian "leader, priest, whatever the propper term is" is interested in being a CAP Chaplain; why not? They just need to support everybody else, like all the chaplains do. Just have to create the badge, which is another can of worms.
Don't forget that a pagan or Wiccan chaplain would need to receive the required ecclesiastical endorsement from a religious body found on the Armed Forced Chaplains Board list and have a BA and a seminary degree as required by CAPR 265-1 prior to appointment.
(Click here for the AFCB List (http://prhome.defense.gov/mppchaplain_endorsements.html). Pretty interesting list, but I couldn't find anything for the Wiccans or pagans.)
Quote from: RogueLeader on February 03, 2010, 05:36:49 PM
Just have to create the badge, which is another can of worms.
Now you are talking! It all comes down to uniforms. I wanna help design the Pagan and Wiccan badges!
Quote from: Major Lord on February 03, 2010, 04:48:55 PM
Druids were ancient Celts, and practiced ( as much as anyone can really verify) a sort of pantheistic, naturalistic religion. Many of their practices involved human sacrifice. The modern day practice of Halloween has much more to do with the Druids then the Christians, and involved Druid priests seizing your virgin daughters ( the "treat") or burning your house down ( the "trick") Stonehenge apparently had some connection to the Druids, although what it was used for is a matter of some conjecture. It was probably not a car wash.
Wiccans are a hybrid of Witchcraft, Gaea Worship, (Earth Mother God) and Naturist Beliefs. Although most deny their links to Satanism, its pretty thinly veiled, and its more of an agglomeration of beliefs which tend to justify their sometimes "freethinking" sexual practices.
I think that we in CAP should take a strong, courageous, and moral stand, and just say, Well, ritual human sacrifice is just unacceptable in CAP!" Some may have strong views to the contrary. Animal Sacrifice should be okay if carried out by a Chaplain whenever possible. ( I have to admit, that many Rabbits and chickens have met an untimely end at the hands of Cadet Survival School students)
Major Lord
I'd really like to hear what a druid or wiccan thinks of this characterization of their beliefs. I don't know enough about their religions to tell if what you stated is completely true or not, but it sounds like it comes with a serious slant.
Case in point. I sorta doubt they would say they worship Satan. Dunno maybe they do.
Plus nobody was even talking about animal sacrifices. So thanks for taking that strong moral stand against something nobody suggested we were going to do in CAP.
Quote from: DogCollar on February 03, 2010, 05:36:18 PM
I will fight to the death for an individuals' right of free speech. However, the respondant to the AF link identified himself as a Volunteer Chaplain with the VA and a MLO with the Civil Air Patrol. By giving such identifiers he says that the VA and CAP have shaped his opinion that what has been done at the Air Force Academy is wrong. While I don't have an issue with his exercise of his free speech, he has carelessly lumped all of us in the CAP Chaplain Corps as agreeing with his position. The Chaplain Corps position is to welcome and minister to all CAP members regardless of their religious identification or non-religious identification. This is specifically articulated in the CAP Chaplain Code of Ethics CAPR-265-1. To the best of my knowledge Character Development Officers are also bound by the ethic of pluralistic ministry.
I would agree. I find the comment distasteful as well. The individual has basically spoken for both of the organizations he mentioned.
The right of free speech is an individual right, it does not allow an individual to speak for any organization of which they are a part. His statement has probably already caused damage to our organizations' name, as well as the VA.
If I found that someone had made a statement mentioning our organization in such a manner, I would definitely have a counseling session with the individual.
Maybe Emailing the moderator to remove the organization names would be best..,.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 03, 2010, 04:48:55 PM
Druids were ancient Celts, and practiced ( as much as anyone can really verify) a sort of pantheistic, naturalistic religion. Many of their practices involved human sacrifice. The modern day practice of Halloween has much more to do with the Druids then the Christians, and involved Druid priests seizing your virgin daughters ( the "treat") or burning your house down ( the "trick") Stonehenge apparently had some connection to the Druids, although what it was used for is a matter of some conjecture. It was probably not a car wash.
Wiccans are a hybrid of Witchcraft, Gaea Worship, (Earth Mother God) and Naturist Beliefs. Although most deny their links to Satanism, its pretty thinly veiled, and its more of an agglomeration of beliefs which tend to justify their sometimes "freethinking" sexual practices.
I think that we in CAP should take a strong, courageous, and moral stand, and just say, Well, ritual human sacrifice is just unacceptable in CAP!" Some may have strong views to the contrary. Animal Sacrifice should be okay if carried out by a Chaplain whenever possible. ( I have to admit, that many Rabbits and chickens have met an untimely end at the hands of Cadet Survival School students)
Major Lord
Citation for any of that sir?
"In a world where billions believe their Deity concieved a mortal child with a virgin woman, its stunning how little imgination most people have."
I'm not sure, but I think (and hope) that Major Lord wrote his post with tongue in cheek.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 03, 2010, 04:48:55 PM
Druids were ancient Celts, and practiced ( as much as anyone can really verify) a sort of pantheistic, naturalistic religion. Many of their practices involved human sacrifice. The modern day practice of Halloween has much more to do with the Druids then the Christians, and involved Druid priests seizing your virgin daughters ( the "treat") or burning your house down ( the "trick") Stonehenge apparently had some connection to the Druids, although what it was used for is a matter of some conjecture. It was probably not a car wash.
Wiccans are a hybrid of Witchcraft, Gaea Worship, (Earth Mother God) and Naturist Beliefs. Although most deny their links to Satanism, its pretty thinly veiled, and its more of an agglomeration of beliefs which tend to justify their sometimes "freethinking" sexual practices.
I think that we in CAP should take a strong, courageous, and moral stand, and just say, Well, ritual human sacrifice is just unacceptable in CAP!" Some may have strong views to the contrary. Animal Sacrifice should be okay if carried out by a Chaplain whenever possible. ( I have to admit, that many Rabbits and chickens have met an untimely end at the hands of Cadet Survival School students)
Major Lord
Major Lord,
I dont think we have to denounce human sacrafice in CAP. Its kinda already against the law. Its called Murder. I think thats getting a bit deep. Thank you for the research on Druids and Wiccans, My life is more fulfilled now. lol. just kidding.