Ok, so I just took th eonline Yeagar award and passed it. What else do I need to do in order to get the Yeagar award?
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 12:21:01 AM
Ok, so I just took th eonline Yeagar award and passed it. What else do I need to do in order to get the Yeagar award?
About 70 cents? ;D Check with your wing. In mine all you do is take it online and that's it.
You passed the online Yeager exam? Here's what you need to do.
Print the certificate you receive afterward, then send it to me along with a $40 processing fee. I'll send you an exact color copy of your certificate that you can frame along with the original you sent me.
Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.
Truth is, you have the award. It shows up automatically in e-Services once you pass. I'll still take your $40, though.
I'll provide a high-resolution scan of the certificate, along with a RIBBON for only $30! (plus $2.00 for shipping and handling).
So, all you gotta do is take a 100 question test? I thought there would be alittle more too it than that. Its a requirement to get a masters rating in CAdetPrograms and to complete Level IV. I thought it would be moe indepth, but whatever. Thanks for the replies guys.
Anyone notice that under the color coded system in Commanders Dashboard that CAP thinks your wing is doing a great job if only something like 12% of your seniors have received this award? Pretty low expectations.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 12:21:01 AMOk, so I just took th eonline Yeagar award and passed it. What else do I need to do in order to get the Yeagar award?
Know how to spell "Yeager" correctly. ;)
Quote from: raivo on January 25, 2010, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 12:21:01 AMOk, so I just took th eonline Yeagar award and passed it. What else do I need to do in order to get the Yeagar award?
Know how to spell "Yeager" correctly. ;)
God, I wish you were in my army unit. ;)
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 12:55:10 AM
So, all you gotta do is take a 100 question test?
Its not exactly the prestigious, study-group-level, achievement it used to be...
This is what happens when you make something online, open-book, no proctor, as is also being evidenced by people flying through the OBC. :(
What if it's just members doing better due to better knowledge? I spent under 10 minutes on my Mitchell and 15 for the Earhart. Closed book, no help, just me.
Does that mean that the Earhart is no longer as prestigious because I took it in under the allotted hour?
When I took the exam, I did it cold-turkey on a whim. Almost nothing in that test wasn't something I didn't have when I was a cadet, so I greased through it.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on January 25, 2010, 01:12:46 AM
What if it's just members doing better due to better knowledge? I spent under 10 minutes on my Mitchell and 15 for the Earhart. Closed book, no help, just me.
Does that mean that the Earhart is no longer as prestigious because I took it in under the allotted hour?
No, it means that you knew the material.
The OBC can now be completed by someone with no knowledge of CAP in an hour or two. Cadet tests will be the same way - cadets will pile up on the milestones and then we will wonder why they do so well online but not closed book.
For anyone interested in aviation, pilots, etc., the Yeager wasn't "rocket science" to start with (ok, it literally was, but from a different angle), allowing members to take the test online, open book, just means you don't have to think about it for 20 seconds before the test, and never again after.
Its always been an open book test - the AE book only - and it used to be as much a team-building experience as a test of AE knowledge.
That's "old school" now.
Click - search - click - search - click (already knew that one), rinse repeat, done.
Agreed. There was nothing on the Yeager test I didn't already know before I joined CAP.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 01:06:57 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 12:55:10 AM
So, all you gotta do is take a 100 question test?
Its not exactly the prestigious, study-group-level, achievement it used to be...
This is what happens when you make something online, open-book, no proctor, as is also being evidenced by people flying through the OBC. :(
I agree. Not challenging atall. Its an online openbook test. And its the same stuff I did as a cadet in CAP. Dont get me wrong. it was interesting. I learned that Russia had the first female "combat" pilots. But yeah, i agree OBC needs to be a heck of a lot more than just an online course.
On another note though, the AEROSPACE: The Journey of Flight needs to be updated. They said the Airbus was the latest andgreatest in commercial aviation. that was sooooo long ago.
All these folks bragging about how easy it was. it was an open book test. Who cares if you did it in 10 minutes or three hours. All you gotta do is look up the answers.
iagree it was better when it was a team building event and you did it as a grouip. CAP is becomming an organization of online testers and users. Pretty soon we will be doing everything online. Imagine no more weekly meetings just say what you gotta sayin a chat room and email.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 02:35:54 AM
On another note though, the AEROSPACE: The Journey of Flight needs to be updated. They said the Airbus was the latest andgreatest in commercial aviation. that was sooooo long ago.
By design, every textbook is outdated and obsolete when its hits the store shelves because of the time-to-market required to print a book.
CAP needs to be looking to an all-online curriculum in formats compatible with notebooks, smartphones, and the new ebook readers, and as easy to update as a blog.
But then again, there's not much point to the expense of a textbook, or even bothering with online curriculum, when your allowed to just look up the answers online when you take a test, anyway.
I'm a huge proponent of online everything - I live in the Googleplex and we're trying to find new ways every day to leverage docs and Wave, but this is not the answer. Its only a test of you GoogleFu, not your knowledge of the subject.
I took it in the good old days (late 90s) and remember it being a closed book test. I seem to remember we had some lecture and took the test immediately afterward (don't think I ever saw a text).
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 02:35:54 AM
On another note though, the AEROSPACE: The Journey of Flight needs to be updated. They said the Airbus was the latest andgreatest in commercial aviation. that was sooooo long ago.
By design, every textbook is outdated and obsolete when its hits the store shelves because of the time-to-market required to print a book.
CAP needs to be looking to an all-online curriculum in formats compatible with notebooks, smartphones, and the new ebook readers, and as easy to update as a blog.
But then again, there's not much point to the expense of a textbook, or even bothering with online curriculum, when your allowed to just look up the answers online when you take a test, anyway.
I'm a huge proponent of online everything - I live in the Googleplex and we're trying to find new ways every day to leverage docs and Wave, but this is not the answer. Its only a test of you GoogleFu, not your knowledge of the subject.
iam not a proponent of going online with everything When you have kids and cadets and families that cant afford a computer it leaves them with a handicap . CAP is becoming an elitest organization where only the privileged can be involved. If you don't have a computer you cant take online test and if you have your way you wont be able to get your study matrials.
Another reason i don't like online everything is because it takes away from the group training. Online is More individual. I know we have a lot of IT nerds in CAP that like to sit in their cubicle all day an never speak to a soul but CAP needs to be interactive.
A third reason is some folks wont be motivated to do what they need to do online at home. Some people you have to sit down and go through it with them. At my old squadron, members knew they needed to do Level one, Buthow many of them actually took the time to go home aftera long day of driving trucks or working at the grocery store are going to sit down at a computer on their Free time and do internet work when they could open a cold one and relax? A lot of things need to be done in a group setting at the squadron meetings. ;D
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 02:35:54 AM
On another note though, the AEROSPACE: The Journey of Flight needs to be updated. They said the Airbus was the latest andgreatest in commercial aviation. that was sooooo long ago.
By design, every textbook is outdated and obsolete when its hits the store shelves because of the time-to-market required to print a book.
CAP needs to be looking to an all-online curriculum in formats compatible with notebooks, smartphones, and the new ebook readers, and as easy to update as a blog.
But then again, there's not much point to the expense of a textbook, or even bothering with online curriculum, when your allowed to just look up the answers online when you take a test, anyway.
I'm a huge proponent of online everything - I live in the Googleplex and we're trying to find new ways every day to leverage docs and Wave, but this is not the answer. Its only a test of you GoogleFu, not your knowledge of the subject.
Eclipse, I dont know if you are into aviation or not but most folks that are know that the Airbus has been out for many years. The 777 and the 787 Dreamliner are the "new" wow airplanes in the commerical market
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 02:40:06 AM
All these folks bragging about how easy it was. it was an open book test. Who cares if you did it in 10 minutes or three hours. All you gotta do is look up the answers.
iagree it was better when it was a team building event and you did it as a grouip. CAP is becomming an organization of online testers and users. Pretty soon we will be doing everything online. Imagine no more weekly meetings just say what you gotta sayin a chat room and email.
Really? When was this the policy for this test?
A test is a test. It's supposed to be an individual effort.
Why not let all the cadets in a specific grade do group testing on their leadership and aerospace tests? That sounds like
great team building exercise. ::)
Actually, wasn't its a "closed-book" corrected to 100%?
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 03:13:15 AM
Eclipse, I dont know if you are into aviation or not but most folks that are know that the Airbus has been out for many years. The 777 and the 787 Dreamliner are the "new" wow airplanes in the commerical market
And just exactly what does that have to do with the broad subject at hand?
If the book is so out of date, how do you propose to fund a new addition? We're having trouble keeping vital regs up to date, without getting into a book the size of the aerospace text.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 03:21:03 AM
Actually, wasn't its a "closed-book" corrected to 100%?
I believe that's correct, but only if you had a passing score to start with.
The Yeager was a closed book test back in early 90's. At the time
the Yeager test was very similar to the Aerospace Portion of the Spaatz Test. If you passed the Spaatz, the Yeager was easy. As I
recall the Seniors at the time had to study because of all the material
covered. I am not a big proponent of "on-line" because it becomes
just another box checked with little or no comprehension/learning.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2010, 03:13:15 AM
Eclipse, I dont know if you are into aviation or not but most folks that are know that the Airbus has been out for many years. The 777 and the 787 Dreamliner are the "new" wow airplanes in the commerical market
It doesn't matter if I know, only that Google knows.
That's the point.
Quote from: Senior on January 25, 2010, 04:00:55 AMI am not a big proponent of "on-line" because it becomes just another box checked with little or no comprehension/learning.
Yep.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 25, 2010, 03:32:57 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 03:21:03 AM
Actually, wasn't its a "closed-book" corrected to 100%?
I believe that's correct, but only if you had a passing score to start with.
Took my Yeager 5-6 yrs ago, open book all the way....
Quote from: Senior on January 25, 2010, 04:00:55 AM
The Yeager was a closed book test back in early 90's. At the time
the Yeager test was very similar to the Aerospace Portion of the Spaatz Test. If you passed the Spaatz, the Yeager was easy. As I
recall the Seniors at the time had to study because of all the material
covered. I am not a big proponent of "on-line" because it becomes
just another box checked with little or no comprehension/learning.
If you passed the Mitchell, the Yeager was easy.
Just a suggestion...
Have Kinkos print the .pdf file of the certificate on non-glossy cardstock. (Bring them the .pdf file to print, don't just make a copy of the one you printed) The way their machines print and when using cardstock, it makes it look much nicer and more professional than just printing it at home. For under $1, its really worth the difference. I do this with any .pdf certificates I receive or present.
At any rate. Thank you for everyones advice on my question.
Did anyone tell you congrats!
Completion means that you have an AE frame of reference that could be used to mentor cadets. By the way, your next step is to pursue a master rating in AE. Completion of those exams and various requirements leading to the master rating will entitle you for the Scott Crossfield Award.
One other note, it WAS a closed book exam in the 1990s when I first earned my award as a member of Mass. Wing. That wing, by the way, held weekend seminars then at Westover AFB where participants were walked though the curriculum in order to pass the test. Boy, have things changed. My group had 14...all of whom passed the test.
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 10:16:23 PM
Completion means that you have an AE frame of reference that could be used to mentor cadets. By the way, your next step is to pursue a master rating in AE. Completion of those exams and various requirements leading to the master rating will entitle you for the Scott Crossfield Award.
The Crossfield Award is an annual award by nomination and is only open to teachers. It not a normal progression of members on the AE track.
(1) Qualifications: Nominees must be Civil Air Patrol members, senior member or aerospace education member (AEM), and certified classroom teachers from grades kindergarten through twelve from any public, private, or parochial school. Nominees must either teach aerospace education* as a subject or use aerospace education to enrich the teaching of traditional subjects.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2010, 10:26:09 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 10:16:23 PM
Completion means that you have an AE frame of reference that could be used to mentor cadets. By the way, your next step is to pursue a master rating in AE. Completion of those exams and various requirements leading to the master rating will entitle you for the Scott Crossfield Award.
The Crossfield Award is an annual award by nomination and is only open to teachers. It not a normal progression of members on the AE track.
(1) Qualifications: Nominees must be Civil Air Patrol members, senior member or aerospace education member (AEM), and certified classroom teachers from grades kindergarten through twelve from any public, private, or parochial school. Nominees must either teach aerospace education* as a subject or use aerospace education to enrich the teaching of traditional subjects.
Quote from: CAPR 39-3
17. The A. Scott Crossfield Award. Awarded by
National Headquarters to members who have earned the
master level rating in the aerospace education specialty
track and served as aerospace education officer.
So which is it?
Are there two?
It's the Item 17 from CAPR 39-3. Also, look at Block III on a Form 2A. Look at a CAP Ribbon Chart and you will see a light blue and gray ribbon after the Yeager or AEPSM Award. That's the A. Scott Crossfield Award. If you have an AEO who earns a master rating, you complete the Form 2A and submit it through channels to NHQ where a certificate is printed for appropriate presentation.
The difference between the two is that the Yeager shows up in e-services, the A. Scott Crossfield won't....just like the Brewer Memorial Award won't. It's just a certificate as well.
So, an AEO can earn as many as two ribbons in addition to devices on a speciality badge.
I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots. Those wings give an AEO a level of creditility and a viable mission skill.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2010, 10:49:51 PM
So which is it?
Are there two?
In a word, yes. I had to look it all up at my unit to clarify the confusion.
There's an award for teachers, and also the CAP PD award.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2010, 10:26:09 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 10:16:23 PM
Completion means that you have an AE frame of reference that could be used to mentor cadets. By the way, your next step is to pursue a master rating in AE. Completion of those exams and various requirements leading to the master rating will entitle you for the Scott Crossfield Award.
The Crossfield Award is an annual award by nomination and is only open to teachers. It not a normal progression of members on the AE track.
(1) Qualifications: Nominees must be Civil Air Patrol members, senior member or aerospace education member (AEM), and certified classroom teachers from grades kindergarten through twelve from any public, private, or parochial school. Nominees must either teach aerospace education* as a subject or use aerospace education to enrich the teaching of traditional subjects.
I think you mean the Brewer award and there are several catagories for it.
There is also the CAP AE teacher of the year adn CAP AE officer of the year awards.
Nope, the info is correct as posted in the quote.
By the way, I found this in the NB minutes from Aug 2008.
QuoteThe Crown Circle and A. Scott Crossfield AE Teacher of the Year awards are no longer
handled by Civil Air Patrol and should be deleted from consideration.
I should have said from the beginning that I'm a wing-level AE type. That's why I knew about the two awards.
This talk about the two ribbons has been good. The fact that there are two PD-type awards only shows how important the AE program is. Afterall, it is an AF-assigned mission and has such a tremendous impact on youth.
So now if I just challenge all of you to take AE seriously and strive to achieve the Yeager; if you haven't already. Then consider going through the AE speciality track to achieve the A. Scott Crossfield Award. You won't regret it and might enjoy being a fellow "Space Cadet."
Also, I find AE subjects and lesson plans an easier way to get into the schools. I'm working with one school now that is using the CAP AEX Program to keep kids interested during study halls.
Thanx again for completing the Yeager!
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 10:16:23 PM
Did anyone tell you congrats!
Completion means that you have an AE frame of reference that could be used to mentor cadets. By the way, your next step is to pursue a master rating in AE. Completion of those exams and various requirements leading to the master rating will entitle you for the Scott Crossfield Award.
One other note, it WAS a closed book exam in the 1990s when I first earned my award as a member of Mass. Wing. That wing, by the way, held weekend seminars then at Westover AFB where participants were walked though the curriculum in order to pass the test. Boy, have things changed. My group had 14...all of whom passed the test.
Thanks flyboy1,
No,i didnt know about the Scott Crossfield award. But dont Ineed to get the technician and Senior level ratings first b4 I can work onthe masters rating? I'd love to geta Masters rating in AE. You need at least two masters level ratings in a primary mission to get the OE I think. This awrd will help me get the masters in CP
Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2010, 01:28:49 AM
Nope, the info is correct as posted in the quote.
Where did that quote come from?
It is not in 39-3 P215 or P15.
Our good friend the KB...
It was also in some material sent out soliciting submissions for the teacher award. I saw it at a squadron meeting a few weeks ago. It might also have been in an email, but I don't have it here.
There are two "Crossfield Awards" One is given by CAP for completing the Master's level of the Aerospace Education track. The other is awarded by the National Conference on Aviation and Space Exploration, to an outstanding AE teacher who may or may not be a CAP member
Yes, it is in CAPR 39-3., page 6, on the top right of the e-reg page:
17. The A. Scott Crossfield Award. Awarded by
National Headquarters to members who have earned the
master level rating in the aerospace education specialty
track and served as aerospace education officer.
Flyguy: Yes, you are correct, you will need to progress through the technician and senior ratings before achieving a master in order to qualify for the Crossfield Award. Please check out the speciality track guide to start. The exams for each level are on line. You won't regret it.
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 11:56:43 PM
I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.
We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training. National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers. MPs who are MOs get counted twice.
Quote from: Short Field on January 28, 2010, 01:45:42 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 11:56:43 PM
I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.
We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training. National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers. MPs who are MOs get counted twice.
I dont think thats fair. Everybody doent want to be in ES. Every pilot doesnt need to be involved in missions. Cant I be a pilot and join CAP only to fly cadet O rides. You mean I would be forced in a volunteer organization to go through training I dont want to go through?
No one said forced. We strongly advocate....as in...."the more MOs and MPs we got on the books the more money we get for training"...no one is forcing anyone to take on any thing they don't want to.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 29, 2010, 07:01:15 AM
Quote from: Short Field on January 28, 2010, 01:45:42 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 26, 2010, 11:56:43 PM
I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.
We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training. National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers. MPs who are MOs get counted twice.
I dont think thats fair. Everybody doent want to be in ES. Every pilot doesnt need to be involved in missions. Cant I be a pilot and join CAP only to fly cadet O rides. You mean I would be forced in a volunteer organization to go through training I dont want to go through?
That was never the point. The point was giving AEOs credibility in their speciality and provide them with aviable mission skill. If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.
Good idea.
I would love to get the Scott Crossfield Award. but i am currently heavy into CP.
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 29, 2010, 11:47:52 AM
If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.
Pilots who can only do O'rides are fine with me. However, when I look for O'ride pilots, I start with MPs first - and the ones who show up for SARs and SAREXs get first dibs on the free flying.
Quote from: Short Field on February 02, 2010, 04:24:56 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on January 29, 2010, 11:47:52 AM
If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.
Pilots who can only do O'rides are fine with me. However, when I look for O'ride pilots, I start with MPs first - and the ones who show up for SARs and SAREXs get first dibs on the free flying.
Well, thats not fair. Why look at Mission pilots first for O ride pilots? Again, some people may not have the desire tobe mission pilots. Why discriminate against them? Isnt CAP volunteer? You can come and choose the things you want o participate in. Why be penalized or put to the back of the line because you may not have the time to participate in SAREx's or you just have no interest. SO, if a CFII with 1000 hrs dual given comes to you and only wants to be an O ride pilot you wil tell him "AFter all the 300 hur Mission pilots who do no instructing have their pick" You would choose a 300 hour non instructor over a 1000 hour pilot who does nothing but instruct?
I agree with flyguy
There are plenty of CFI and CFII types that get very little chance to do the MP stuff all the time and why "discriminate" against them?
O flights ought to be done by other squadron line pilots who, at times, have to to wait for Johnny 30 year MP pilot to get to the front of the line
SAREX and O rides are two separate operations where you, quite possibly, have to come across to the right seater, as a true customer.
I remember so folks here writing about ALL those expectations for MO/MS in the right seat. Leave to O-ride missions to the line pilots and not MP's. They are orientation flights...the basics of getting cadets and seniors to understand and enjoy some of the options of flying and CAP flying.......not some feel good audience for Johnny 30 year MP for the right seater to ohhh and ahhh about just 'cuz one has 100,000 hours of CAP flying ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just because one shows up at 1000% of SAREX's and missions, by in no means, makes them a qualified O Flight pilot. Just because Johnny 30 yr MP has zillions of hours...doesn't mean he /she is ace of the base in everything flying. So squadrons have had a number of CFI's and airline drivers LEAVE CAP due to all the mickey mouse of the organization. Saying Johnny 30 MP is the only thing going for O flights, is part of that Mickey Mouse >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
But this is CAP.....where EVERYTHING is up for debate
Well....maybe because ES is the primary purpose of the AIRCRAFT in the first place.
It is not discrimination.....but trying to force some of or more static members to join in the fun.
I would not go so far as saying "absolutely not" to someone who only wants to do O-rides.....but if you have a choice between an active MP and an O-ride only guy......I too would give the assignment to the MP pilot. It gives more time to the MP and still fulfills the O-ride requirements for the cadets. So we kill two birds with one stone.....saves money....increases the MP's skills and gets the cadets some air time.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 02, 2010, 06:45:09 PM
Well....maybe because ES is the primary purpose of the AIRCRAFT in the first place.
It is not discrimination.....but trying to force some of or more static members to join in the fun.
I would not go so far as saying "absolutely not" to someone who only wants to do O-rides.....but if you have a choice between an active MP and an O-ride only guy......I too would give the assignment to the MP pilot. It gives more time to the MP and still fulfills the O-ride requirements for the cadets. So we kill two birds with one stone.....saves money....increases the MP's skills and gets the cadets some air time.
This is where I would disagree with you sir. I DO NOT believe that ES is th primary purpose of the aircraft in CAP. And too many old pilots have that attitude. Cadet Flying is a major mission in CAP. It is equally as important as ES. If it weren't, the USAF wouldn't fund it. Again, different people join CAP for different reasons. To say that in order to be an O ride pilot you MUST be a Mission pilot or to give favoritism to MP's is discrimination against those who either cannot be a MP or choose not to be a MP. Some people cant devote the time out of their busy schedules to go t MP training So do we just discard them? everyone is CAP does not own their own business or has alot of money and cant take the time of a 40 hour week job to attend SARex's or NESA ( an d I am a NESA graduates so don't think I hate NESA, in fact, I loved it)
But I strongly disagree with the attitude that ES is CAP's primary mission. All three missions must be done to the same level. I dream of the day to see every cadet in my wing have at least one O ride. I dream of the day to see more cadet pilots in CAP. I joined CAP to introduce youths to aviation and flying which is my passion. Don't get me wrong, I am a MP and plan to become an IC oneday, but my primary reason for being in CAP is to teach cadets about flying and leadership. SO, am I to be treated like a second class citizen because ES is not at the forefront of my interests?
We would loose a lot of good members if we made it a requirement to participate in ES or even looked favorably on people that do ES over people that opt not to.
Again, as I have said on other threads. the culture in CAP is turning into a "volunteer EMS organization that wants to wear polo shirts only and get out inthe woods and so search missions for ELT's that are going out of service" type of organization. and we are going to loose good people.
But hey,. once again (and I am guilty myself) I started this thread to say that I passed my Yeager award. How it turned into a discussion about O ride pilots vs MP's I have no idea. I guess its something I just have to deal with. lol
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PM
This is where I would disagree with you sir. I DO NOT believe that ES is th primary purpose of the aircraft in CAP. And too many old pilots have that attitude.
Sorry Fly, you need to accept this and move on.
The only reason we have government-funded airplanes is ES - the other advantages we take and make of having those planes is great and a value-add for Uncle Sam's money, but we don't have them so that we can provide cadets a handful of pattern rides (assuming they get them).
ES may not be the "primary" mission, but its the reason with have all the expensive toys, and its always going to fight for #1 with the CP, with AE being an afterthought, since most of the goals of the AE program are accomplished through the CP and ES.
You (nor anyone else), should make the mistake of equating your personal reasons for participating with the overall missions or goals of the organization as a whole.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMCadet Flying is a major mission in CAP.
I got to say you are not correct on this point. Just look at the funding levels.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMIt is equally as important as ES. If it weren't, the USAF wouldn't fund it.
Yes...look at how the USAF funds it. It is important....I do not gain say that....but equally? I don't think so. If push came to shove and we could only fund ES flying or O-rides...the USAF would fund the ES.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMAgain, different people join CAP for different reasons. To say that in order to be an O ride pilot you MUST be a Mission pilot or to give favoritism to MP's is discrimination against those who either cannot be a MP or choose not to be a MP.
Never said that to be an O-ride pilot you MUST be an MP as well.....I only said that if you had the choice between an MP and an O-ride only pilot....I would give the O-ride assignment to the MP. It gives me more bang for the buck.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMSome people cant devote the time out of their busy schedules to go t MP training So do we just discard them?
Again...never said that....don't agree with that sentiment at all. We need everyone. But if it came down two a choice....
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMeveryone is CAP does not own their own business or has a lot of money and cant take the time of a 40 hour week job to attend SARex's or NESA ( an d I am a NESA graduates so don't think I hate NESA, in fact, I loved it)
Yes I understand....but if you got a guy who takes his time from his other commitments and does the ES training and he wants to do the O-rides as well....I would be more inclined to throw the O-ride missions his way vice giving them to the guy who only has time for O-rides.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMBut I strongly disagree with the attitude that ES is CAP's primary mission. All three missions must be done to the same level. I dream of the day to see every cadet in my wing have at least one O ride. I dream of the day to see more cadet pilots in CAP.
I'm not one of those guys. Never said that ES is CAP's primary mission....I only said the purpose that CAP bought the aircraft....their primary purpose....was to fulfill our ES mission. There is no reason why you can't get all your cadets and O-ride. There is plenty of money to fly O-rides. In fact CAP (at least NVWG) routinely underflies their O-ride monies for one reason or another. But the fact remains.....the airplanes are here for ES. Point in case. Last November my wing CC was reporting that CAP was not getting it's congressional plus up like they were expecting. One of the first things they cut back on was the O-ride monies.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMI joined CAP to introduce youths to aviation and flying which is my passion. Don't get me wrong, I am a MP and plan to become an IC oneday, but my primary reason for being in CAP is to teach cadets about flying and leadership. SO, am I to be treated like a second class citizen because ES is not at the forefront of my interests?
Don't get your pants in a bunch...I too am mainly a CP guy. I do ES as well (MO, GTL, and the rest of the mission base alphabet).....No one is saying we should be treating CP and O-ride pilots as second class citezens. But we have to have priorities. We have to balance everyones needs and desires against a limited amount of aircraft and funded flying.
So....back to the main point. If there is a choice between giving the assignment to an MP or an O-ride only pilot....the MP is more likely to get the assignment because....I'll get more out of him, he has committed more time, and in the long run the mission gets completed.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMWe would loose a lot of good members if we made it a requirement to participate in ES or even looked favorably on people that do ES over people that opt not to.
Maybe so....but that is the nature of any business. We have to balance the costs of doing something against the benefits. Assigning Pilot X to the O-ride flight.....gets us what? The pilot gains experience and the cadets gets an O-ride. If I give the assignment to an MP he becomes a better MP and a better O-ride pilot as well as getting the O-ride mission done. Giving the assignment to an O-ride only pilot, he becomes a better O-ride pilot and we get the O-ride mission done. Which of those two options give more benefit to CAP as a whole?
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMAgain, as I have said on other threads. the culture in CAP is turning into a "volunteer EMS organization that wants to wear polo shirts only and get out in the woods and so search missions for ELT's that are going out of service" type of organization. and we are going to loose good people.
If we turn into a "hard core cadet only oriented program" we will just as many people. Again no one is saying that you can not specialize. There are plenty of ES only people, AE only people, and CP only people. There a lots of admin only people as well. But if you got a limited number of "goodies" to hand out. How do you choose who to give them to? Do you give them to the guy who only works one of CAP's missions....or do you give them to the guy who is doing all of them?
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 02, 2010, 07:19:31 PMBut hey,. once again (and I am guilty myself) I started this thread to say that I passed my Yeager award. How it turned into a discussion about O ride pilots vs MP's I have no idea. I guess its something I just have to deal with. lol
We all do that now and again....congraduations on the Yeager by the way. :)
My unit has a 350+hr/yr airplane. About a third of those hours are for cadet O-flights, and we have an aggressive O-ride program. However, I do believe that non-mission rated pilots should stand equally in the queue to fly O-rides.
We just did O-rides last weekend, and one of the four pilots was non-mission rated. We take whoever is available, without any prioritizing according to ratings. If someone is O-ride qual'd, he (or she) is in the pool.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 02, 2010, 08:07:24 PMWe take whoever is available, without any prioritizing according to ratings. If someone is O-ride qual'd, he (or she) is in the pool.
+1
Patrick, i understand what you are saying and I appreciate that. The reason I get so emotional about the prioritation of missions is for one my CAP job dictates that I promote the CP and two:
The Squaddron I used to belong too has many older members in it. I am talking members in their 70's and 80's. out of 6 pilots, I was the ONLY MP. We have two commingup but havent done the MS yet. We have two members that are in their 80's they are veryinteresteted in flying cadets,. and thats all they want to do., They dont want to be involved in ES. One of them is 83 years old and feels all that training you have to go through(Gen ES, MS, MP, two SAREx's) is more that he wants to do or maybe is able to do he is a Korean War C-130 pilot and vet. He flies C-172's on a regular basis. He loves the cadets and wants to fly cadet O rides. Why should I deny this veteran the opportunity to participate in CAP the way he wants to? Why should Iput that MP quaified pilot in front of him?
I am a CFI with 1100 hours of which is 400 dual given. I take non pilots flying for a living. Iteach flying for a living. Supose I wasnt a MP. You suggest that the 350 hour MP who is not a CFI should be given first opportunity to fly cadets. The purpose of an O ride is to introduce cadets to aerodynamics, flight controls, weather and so forth. I teach this stuff daily. A non CFI does not. Just because you can fly does not mean you can teach flying You have to know how to convey information to a non pilot in a way they will understand. thats what CFI's do. So, again, who makes the better O ride pilto? The 300 hour CFI or the 2000 non CFI mission Pilot?
btw, in 2008, I went to Las Vegas for an interview with Scenic Air. I went to a Nellis Comp Squaron CAP meeting. I enjoyed it very much. didnt like Las vegas though (no grass) lol
Thanks for the compliment.
I coordinate O flights for our group and the pilot who gets to fly O flights is the first one who volunteers. Cadets need a pilot and a plane, beyond that I don't care.
Quote from: heliodoc on February 02, 2010, 02:20:48 PM
O flights ought to be done by other squadron line pilots who, at times, have to to wait for Johnny 30 year MP pilot to get to the front of the line
You really do seem to have a thing for MPs. :D
CAP operates on the basis of "Qualified" or "Not Qualified". If a person is qualified to fly a specific type of mission as a MP, then they can fly it. Same for O'rides - you are either signed off as qualified and can fly or your are not signed off as qualified and cannot fly.
By the way - what is a "line pilot"?
Quote from: Short Field on February 02, 2010, 10:34:48 PM
By the way - what is a "line pilot"?
From an airline perspective, haven't heard that term in a long time, is a pilot who flies a scheduled line as opposed to a managment pilot.
Or reserve pilot, like me.
Its a common term used inthe airline world but not the CAP world
OK OK
I should have used better terms for CAPers
I was referring to pilots that are not CFI's, CFII's, folks who hold no CAP command positions....
I should have known better sooooo sorry! >:D
Quote from: heliodoc on February 03, 2010, 06:09:33 PM
OK OK
I should have used better terms for CAPers
I was referring to pilots that are not CFI's, CFII's, folks who hold no CAP command positions....
I should have known better sooooo sorry! >:D
So, you're saying that a squadron commander cant be a CFI? >:D (just stirring the pot, I'm bored)
This topic is drifting
A question to the motley crew here...
Would the Yeager ribbon be a good point to use for recognition of other AE awards/certifications/etc (yet to be devised) via attachments?
Quote from: arajca on February 04, 2010, 02:20:21 PM
A question to the motley crew here...
Would the Yeager ribbon be a good point to use for recognition of other AE awards/certifications/etc (yet to be devised) via attachments?
Yes. Just add an attachment to it.
Quote from: arajca on February 04, 2010, 02:20:21 PM
A question to the motley crew here...
Would the Yeager ribbon be a good point to use for recognition of other AE awards/certifications/etc (yet to be devised) via attachments?
Please clarify...what do you mean by an attachment? Yes, the Yeager Award is a good example to present to senior members/officers as a means to continue (or really) begin their professional development process. It's a good and easy first step. As far as attachments, however, there aren't any authorized for this ribbon.