CAP Talk

Operations => Emergency Services & Operations => Topic started by: Smithsonia on January 13, 2010, 12:37:54 PM

Title: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Smithsonia on January 13, 2010, 12:37:54 PM
If you've been on a non-emergency missions late night at your local airport, then these new devices are going to drive us all crazy.
In Colorado - We're calling it the Yuppie 911 system
http://www.denverpost.com/dontmiss/ci_14169778?source=rsshomemiss

Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: SarMaster on January 13, 2010, 12:53:27 PM
Quote from: Smithsonia on January 13, 2010, 12:37:54 PM
If you've been on a non-emergency missions late night at your local airport, then these new devices are going to drive us all crazy.
In Colorado - We're calling it the Yuppie 911 system
http://www.denverpost.com/dontmiss/ci_14169778?source=rsshomemiss



ALL Missions are 'Emergency' untill you verify otherwise!!!!!
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: flyerthom on January 13, 2010, 05:57:35 PM
So what you're saying is the device has an

I D 10 T error  >:D

It's not just CO. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/)

And on these notes I leave you with this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37137286@N00/434160444 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/37137286@N00/434160444)
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Smithsonia on January 13, 2010, 06:15:34 PM
The issues about these units are varied:
1. No training for owner or rules for usage
2. No knowledge of how the unit works electronically or/and mechanically
3. If set off accidentally, there is no indication the user is not aware of the activation - so user doesn't know how or when to shut their unit off
4. The owner/user use it like a 911 system. We have only one way to respond... as in a full and all out emergency. 911 Phones systems are specifically designed to gauge the issues and assign the proper response - fire, medical, police, etc.

As such I would think a couple things need to be done promptly. a) A sign up system, not unlike the new aircraft 406 ELT System. That way if there is a serial abuser of emergency services then we can get them mental/educational/or ticket them for misuse of these units. b) a feedback system - so the wearer/owner/user knows when their unit has been activated, especially if activated accidentally.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: sardak on January 13, 2010, 09:05:48 PM
QuoteIn Colorado - We're calling it the Yuppie 911 system
Following the lead of Matt Scharper, the California state SAR coordinator, who first used the term in an interview last October - and took both good and bad flak over it.

Quote3. If set off accidentally, there is no indication the user is not aware of the activation - so user doesn't know how or when to shut their unit off.
The unit in question in Colorado, an ACR PLB-300 (MicrOfix or ResQfix) has both a red and green LED that flash and the unit beeps when transmitting the 406 signal (every minute). If it's on in a pack, then yes, those features might not be of much benefit.

To activate the beacon, the antenna must first be deployed. This action lifts a cover from the on/off switch. Then the on/off button must be depressed for at least one second and released. The unit won't come on until the button is released. If the button is depressed for too long, the beacon won't activate when the button is released. These are in case something gets wedged between the switch and cover. Not idiot proof but hopefully more than a caveman can do. It's believed the beacon in Colorado wasn't accidentally activated.

QuoteAs such I would think a couple things need to be done promptly. a) A sign up system, not unlike the new aircraft 406 ELT System.
Federal law requires all 406 beacons in the US, including PLBs, be registered. But many beacons, including ELTs and EPIRBs, aren't. Registration is simple and done by mail or online:
https://beaconregistration.noaa.gov/rgdb/

The Alpine Rescue Team did a media blitz on the beacon in Colorado. Do a Google search of "plb berthoud pass." The team posted messages on backcountry ski/snowboard forums. Other forums and blogs picked up their message. The Outdoor Retailers Association carried the message. Signs were posted at the Berthoud Pass recreation area.

A few of the messages I came across on the Net:
Maybe someone duct taped the PLB to a fox and every time he tries to scratch it off, it activates it.

I'm heading out to buy up all the pitchforks and torches in the area. I figure if I can't ski then I can at least make a killing outfitting the angry mob that's soon to form when they figure out who the "perp" is.

Wow, so that is like someone having direct access to the batphone without realizing that it is a batphone. "Each detection of the PLB's signal starts a cascade of rescuers beginning with the US Air Force, the Colorado State Search and Rescue Coordinator, the local sheriff, and finally the local mountain rescue team. . . "

Mike
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Smithsonia on January 13, 2010, 09:32:13 PM
Like consumer lasers that can "shine" our plane crews at night. Like handheld aviation radios that some kid with bad intentions uses to jam up a freq and in this issue too...

1. There are expensive counter measures/tracking means/technical solutions. The trouble is these are expensive and take away from what we should invest in... methods and equipment to help victims, not track criminals or fools.

2. Like the Balloon Boy event, Emergency Services gets punked and hoaxed occasionally. Even occasionally is too often. The trouble with this "squandering" is ES morale, resources, attention, and response time.

Some day - some one will die because of the hoaxing of these clowns. Hoaxers - like taggers, pickpockets, burglars, thieves, and recently Large Banks and mortgage companies, steal what is not theirs... trust. Hope and help is what we give, trust that there are real people in trouble is what we rely on.

Hence examples must be made and fines levied so we can get past this hoaxing phase of behavior.
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=130686&catid=339
Soon messing with ES response will be as nasty on the ground as messing with a airline crew in flight.

A need for fame can be a crazy sickness not an ambition.
For related articles on this topic see here: http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=130682&catid=339
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=130689&catid=339
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: wuzafuzz on January 14, 2010, 01:43:04 AM
On one hand SAR teams in general don't want to charge for rescues because that may cause some people to delay calling for help.  On the other hand, frequent beacon-enabled trivial calls are driving the same teams batty.  The beacons are here to stay...and we can't effectively outlaw stupidity. 

I'd be all for a law that punishes grossly stupid behavior involving non-emergency activations of PLB's.  That example from the Grand Canyon should have earned someone a summons and hefty fine. Leaving the fines for the serious moron moments shouldn't discourage too many people from using the beacons.

Used properly, the beacons are a great tool.  How many previous deaths would have ended differently if beacons were available?  How many extensive searches would have been completed faster with beacons?  I have no idea what percentage of searches or rescues result from brain dead decisions.  I know I'll take one for any cross country adventures, because unexpected things can and do happen.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Johnny Yuma on February 08, 2010, 05:24:35 AM
I've been preaching this for 5 years now.

I can pick up tomorrow half a dozen PLB's for less than $300 at my Cabela's store in KC out of the Bargain Cave. No documentation, no registration instructions.

Folks are buying these things and going to use them as a portable On-Star. I'm waiting for the day we got on one of these missions and find a pissed-off soccer mom at  the local lake [censored]ing at us as to why it took us 12 hours to come change her tire. IT's going to happen!
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Nick on February 08, 2010, 03:03:20 PM
That's cool.  Then let the Air Force bill her for the manpower and resources involved in finding her (man hours for the AFRCC controller, NOC duty officer, wing alert officer, IC, UDF team, and any local law enforcement support, all at a nominal rate), the 50 cents per mile per vehicle, including POVs and corporate vehicles, to get to her, plus any miscellaneous charges for mission support ... she'll re-consider calling AAA next time.

And we don't call it a fine.  We put it in terms that they'll understand ... say "user access fee".
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 03:23:53 PM
I went to a Seniors Center a few days ago to give a AE presentation. Several people who have fading memories wondered if they could obtain these PRB units in case they got lost. I counseled them that these were usually backwoods operations - Not for urban use. I stated that a tag with your phone numbers around your neck is a much better fix. I showed them my 101 card in a ID badge. I said you should put this around your neck and carry a cell or put 4 quarters in this little packet. That way anyone can help you. You needn't call out the CAP in moments of confusion.

That simple plan didn't seem to register with them and I think they were setting off to purchase a PRB for "I forget where I am's can you come get me's?" It seemed to me that they didn't want to rely on picking a person who might take advantage of them and prefer to be found by the nice man in the blue uniform instead who talked to them at the Seniors Center. Even when I explained it would take us 6 to 12 hours to mount a mission, they didn't seem dissuaded. Anyway this is going to become an issue.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: jeders on February 08, 2010, 03:36:32 PM
This reminds me of a mission we had out here a couple of years ago. We'd get a call out once or twice a week because a guy had an old ELT and he liked to mess with people. Eventually, we figured out which house the signal was coming from, even though he shut off the ELT whenever he saw us coming down the road. Then it was just a matter of the Sherrif going in and arresting him.

Turned out to be a former AF SNCO.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Flying Pig on February 08, 2010, 04:54:32 PM
Most LE agencies dont charge for SAR because its already paid for by tax dollars.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 03:23:53 PM
I Even when I explained it would take us 6 to 12 hours to mount a mission......

Holy Crap Batman!!!  6 to 12 hours?  Whats wrong with you guys?

We had a REDCAP yesterday...A/C was at the plane in 15 min...


Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: davidsinn on February 08, 2010, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 03:23:53 PM
I Even when I explained it would take us 6 to 12 hours to mount a mission......

Holy Crap Batman!!!  6 to 12 hours?  Whats wrong with you guys?

We had a REDCAP yesterday...A/C was at the plane in 15 min...

I think that's the total time from PLB activation to them actually finding it.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 05:45:08 PM
Thats still pretty steep...
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: RiverAux on February 08, 2010, 05:59:40 PM
I'm not sure whether we really have a good grasp on estimated times for CAP activation and resolution of PLB missions like we had in the "old" days for ELTS/EPIRBS.  We also have to factor in that the locals are running things and they may or may not be prompt about requesting CAP assistance. 
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 08, 2010, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 03:23:53 PM
Several people who have fading memories wondered if they could obtain these PRB units in case they got lost.


I just had a vision pop in my head of a full response to a PLB, the "victim" being an elderly woman in her house, who, upon seeing her rescuers, uttered the immortal words:

"I've fallen...  And I can't get up!!"

Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 06:16:03 PM
Example...2 nights ago.  AFRCC paged out the Wing  for a PLB, and a 406 together.  Mission went to CAP within 7 min of the SARSAT hit.   Sheriff and local medevac helo were on scene within 15 min of CAP getting the mission.   The first call as the IC was to the local sheriffs office to dispatch their assets.   our crew was at the A/c  ready to go when the Sheriff located the crash...The good news is all survived with minor injuries.

Yes that was an ideal scenario with less then a 30 min from crash to rescue.

Most people dont know that AFRCC works all missions (ELT,PLB,SAR) for quite some time before CAP gets called.

Some States PLB's go to the sheriff....Some go strait to CAP.
In FL we have a heads up as to a few of our Wing Duty Officers work for Emergency Mgt...so we get the call when the Sheriff does.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 06:17:07 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 08, 2010, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 03:23:53 PM
Several people who have fading memories wondered if they could obtain these PRB units in case they got lost.


I just had a vision pop in my head of a full response to a PLB, the "victim" being an elderly woman in her house, who, upon seeing her rescuers, uttered the immortal words:

"I've fallen...  And I can't get up!!"

HAHAHA.... Congtats Joe!
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Smithsonia on February 08, 2010, 06:43:15 PM
The 6-12 hour mission mounting time that I quoted above has been misunderstood. Our teams can be in the field nearly instantly.
I didn't want the ol' folks at the Senior Center to know that. I was attempting to downplay PRBs for the forgetful.

We had a non distress closed in 30 min last week. BUT, then the UDF team was at the airport when the call came in for another meeting.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 07:11:33 PM
Gotcha...  I agree with Joe....we would have a million PLB calls becouse grandpa fell out of his chair...
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: JayT on February 08, 2010, 07:30:40 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on February 08, 2010, 07:11:33 PM
Gotcha...  I agree with Joe....we would have a million PLB calls becouse grandpa fell out of his chair...

For a while, my company was getting a lot of calls for the "fallen and I can't get up" units direct from there operator. The bosses finally put a stop to it because it was such a burden for our units.

We were getting calls for
1. I need a trip to my dialysis clinic.
2. I need to refil my percription, can you drive me to CVS?
3. There's a hornets nest outside of my door!
4. I feel three days ago and my friend said I might be having a stroke.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: sarmed1 on February 08, 2010, 09:30:15 PM
My fire department has a general rule that after something like 5 false activations a month for fire alarms (usually commercial) they will start billing the company for manpower and resources.

mk
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: sardak on February 20, 2010, 05:25:05 AM
The mystery beacon and its owner that were the original topic of this thread were located in Boulder, Colorado last week. After almost a month of silence, the beacon signals reappeared in the original target area. This time, though, the signal stayed on long enough to be located by the local SAR team. The case is under investigation, so my sources couldn't/wouldn't say anything more than the beacon was taken into custody as evidence while the owner was not.

Interestingly, the beacon was located over 20 miles from the most recent three Sarsat hits, which were in a cluster. The SAR team was enroute to the area of the hits when they detected the signal. A good example of why you don't want to just go to the Sarsat location before starting to DF.

Mike
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: wuzafuzz on February 20, 2010, 04:16:33 PM
^^^^
Busted!   :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I guess someone took the "Keep Boulder Weird" bumper stickers too much to heart! 
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: sardak on March 03, 2010, 10:39:27 PM
The official media release about locating the owner and beacon was released today.  From the Denver Post:
Rescue group finds ignorant beacon owner who triggered false alarms http://www.denverpost.com/ci_14501974

From the press release http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/CCSO_1-mar-2010_Press_Release.pdf
Last year he received the PLB as a birthday present from an out‐of‐state relative who knew he skied a lot. The message from his relative was that this was an avalanche beacon and that they wanted him to be safe. Having not read the information in the box or on the back of the device, he would turn‐on the beacon every time he began to take a run in the backcountry.

He had no idea that every time he turned it on it he was broadcasting a distress signal to international satellites that send the signal to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center.

No charges will be filed and the PLB device has been returned to its owner. A sheriff's officer watched the PLB owner register this PLB.


Mike
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Eclipse on March 03, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
Quote from: sardak on March 03, 2010, 10:39:27 PM
He had no idea that every time he turned it on it he was broadcasting a distress signal to international satellites that send the signal to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center.

We've had two of these missions in the last month to the same area downstate - unregistered PLB.  When we get there the signal is gone.
They haven't determined yet if its someone doing it on purpose or an uneducated user.

Registration should be required at time of purchase, same with new ELTs.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 05, 2010, 05:09:41 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 03, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
Quote from: sardak on March 03, 2010, 10:39:27 PM
He had no idea that every time he turned it on it he was broadcasting a distress signal to international satellites that send the signal to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center.

We've had two of these missions in the last month to the same area downstate - unregistered PLB.  When we get there the signal is gone.
They haven't determined yet if its someone doing it on purpose or an uneducated user.

Registration should be required at time of purchase, same with new ELTs.

I've been watching the REDCAPs go out on that one, was just wondering what happened with it. I am interested to know what happens with it.
Title: Re: PLB/PRB missions find idiots
Post by: Eclipse on March 05, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
No joy and no recall since last week.