Aside from asking the Knowledgebase, who may not answer this, is there any particular reason why the Mission Related Skills promotion chart states that someone who has a General Radiotelephone Operator License can immediately be promoted to 1Lt on completion of Level 1, but members who only have an FCC Amateur Radio License have no advancement, not even 2Lt?
It doesn't seem to make sense to me, because I personally don't know anyone who has a GROL, or for that matter how one would go about getting one (I'm sure it's a little more expensive than the Amateur licenses). All of the other Mission Related Skills have three levels of skill, each corresponding to a grade dependant on your advancement of skills. Communications only has one.
I'm not out trolling for butterbars or anything of the like, but it doesn't seem fair to those who spend years with amateur radio licenses who want to do communications-related things with CAP to not get at least a small token of appreciation for their knowledge of radio operations and communications. Because the way the chart looks, it seems to me that CAP only feels GROL licensed individuals are the only ones who have any communications experience, and that the rest of us with amateur licenses start from the very beginning like other members who have never used a radio.
Anyone know why? Thanks!
The KB does answer it, specifically, KB article # 720.
Bottom line, a GROL is a commercial license and allows the holder to install and internally repair various types of equipment. They can also certify equipment as per the various needs of CAP.
Valuable skills to CAP.
The GROL is a professional rating while the Amateur Radio License is not.
If you had an FCC Extra Linsense and wanted to go work for the local radio station you would still have to go get your GROL.
So I guess it's similar to the GROL = commercial bus/truck driver, as the Ham license = guy who drives the big old RV. Similar things, but one is more specialized and requires highly specific training.
Makes more sense to me now! Thanks.
PS. I would have looked in the KB, but I had a short amount of time on the computer while at work.
Quote from: kd8gua on January 07, 2010, 08:21:43 PM
So I guess it's similar to the GROL = commercial bus/truck driver, as the Ham license = guy who drives the big old RV. Similar things, but one is more specialized and requires highly specific training.
Makes more sense to me now! Thanks.
PS. I would have looked in the KB, but I had a short amount of time on the computer while at work.
No. It's more like the Ultralight pilot and an ATP flying the 787
Quote from: Eclipse on January 07, 2010, 07:07:14 PM
The KB does answer it, specifically, KB article # 720.
Bottom line, a GROL is a commercial license and allows the holder to install and internally repair various types of equipment. They can also certify equipment as per the various needs of CAP.
Valuable skills to CAP.
I would have to argue that a GROL is hardly valuable any more to CAP as more and more equipment is being required to be returned to NTC for repair.
Hams with emergency communications experience are much more valuable to CAP. The skills you learn as a ham will help you get your station on the air when the disaster or subsequent circumstances degrade your ability to do so. Proper communications operating practices and the ability to teach same are inherently valuable.
I don't care if the new member can repair a radio - that skill is not only needed infrequently, but is now almost exclusively out of the local unit's hands. However, if he can get a station on the air reliably when the antenna is broken in half and there's no electric? That to me is a valuable skill.
If a licensed amateur radio operator actually wants to work in Communications, why not allow an incentive of some kind? Unless we have a surplus of Comm folks nationwide, we would do well to let such folks know we value their participation.
As for the direct appointment to 1st Lt, why not allow it at the unit commanders discretion? Maybe require them to pass all the CAP communications tests first.
The reality of the situation here is that as a 2lt you are expected to have a fundamental understanding of your role in this organization. You should be able to spell "cap", and posess and wear A uniform properly.
Most members take at least 6 months to complete level 1, and otherwise posess the training and understanding necessary to be of value. I am in the camp that says "show me first, then we'll talk about reward. So no one gets a promotion from me without fundamental building blocks, and that typically takes every bit of the tig required for 2Lt.
I'm not saying comm guys don't desearve advancement, simply that advancement to 2Lt is pointless.
I would agree that 2Lt is more or less a given for anyone with a pulse and can spell out CAP (either the letters c, a, and p, or spelling out civil air patrol wins!). It just seems that the field/emergency experience that hams can give, especially compared to the laboratory type experience of GROL, is hardly recognized by CAP other than a hearty pat on the back. As we've discussed in other topics, in a volunteer organization like CAP, awards and promotions are ways we should be patting people on the back. If they have a skill or have done something important for CAP, they should be recognized.
I didn't know that the only reason GROL's got advance promotion was because they had the FCC certification to work on CAP radios. Even if NTC allowed GROL's to work on squadrons' radios anymore, you need to be more of a computer programmer more than anything, especially for Motorola and Johnson radios.
From my reading of the 52-16 (that's the right number for the SM PD regs right?), the promotion system allows for normal progression, mission related skills auto progression (with completion of Level 1), special duty promotions, and promotions if the commander feels one has skills or abilities not listed in the mission skills table that are deserving of said grade. so up to promotion to Capt. one can be promoted in a variety of ways.
An ongoing issue with most ham's I've talked to they get upset they can't use their personal equipment on our frequencies. The "If I can't use MY equipment, you aren't worthy" attitude just irritates the heck out of me. Unfortunately, that attitude is too common from my experience.
The GROL promotion is a hold over from why back when. I don't expect it to last too much longer.
52-16 is the Cadet Program reg. 50-17 is the PD reg.
Quote from: kd8gua on January 08, 2010, 06:51:30 PM
promotions if the commander feels one has skills or abilities not listed in the mission skills table that are deserving of said grade. so up to promotion to Capt.
As I recall, that type of promotion is definitely the rare exception rather than the rule. Requires justification paperwork and approvals up the chain, etc.
I agree with the comments on appointment to 2d Lt. I would rather see EVERYONE complete the requirements for 2d Lt and then get bumped up to whatever the appointed grade is to be.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 10, 2010, 09:18:44 AM
Quote from: kd8gua on January 08, 2010, 06:51:30 PM
promotions if the commander feels one has skills or abilities not listed in the mission skills table that are deserving of said grade. so up to promotion to Capt.
As I recall, that type of promotion is definitely the rare exception rather than the rule. Requires justification paperwork and approvals up the chain, etc.
I agree with the comments on appointment to 2d Lt. I would rather see EVERYONE complete the requirements for 2d Lt and then get bumped up to whatever the appointed grade is to be.
They have to now. You must complete level 1 before you can be bumped up.
It's about time that someone agreed with me. :D
I have a GROL plus the Radar Endorsement. You don't need a GROL to service Land Mobile Radios anymore, but you do need one to service Avionic Radios, Marine radios, and Radar. The GROL is one of several certifications CAP will authorize for radio repair, and pretty much anyone who can pass this test will be able to handle the computer related tasks. The GROL used to be required for TV and Radio Broadcast Engineers, and is a mandatory step in being a Ship's radio officer in the Mechant Marine. There are additional elements required for various levels of maritime practice. A ham license is a great thing to have, and in fact, a fair percentage of the questions on the Amateur Extra Class test are also on the GROL test, but frankly, the GROL test is a lot harder, and is more math intensive.
You can get a GROL in much the same way you got a ham license: Order the Gordon West book, test software, and and study materials and study, study, study. I studied constantly for about 2 months, took the practice tests, and found a testing location at a local college. I missed 1 question on the GROL and 1 question on the RADAR section, so the Gordon West materials came in very handy. I also found that the real tough math questions had a certain pattern in the answers, so I memorized the key-word to answer relationships, and as soon as I sat down for the test, I wrote the answer key down on my scratch paper, instead of actually working out each equation during the test. (Now before anyone gets upset, remember what they call the guy who finishes at the bottom of his class in Medical School......"Doctor")
Since I earned my GROL after I was a 1 LT, it made no difference to me ( although my Sq commander did not mention that my EMT cert could have allowed advanced promotion) Since I manufacture ham radio products (APRS trackers; www.byonics.com/microtrak) and also work in electronic counter-measures, the GROL is one piece of paper I can show a client to authenticate that I am a professional. The Amateur ticket ( I am an AE class) proves that you are an Amateur, and shows just that: that you are an Amateur, a hobbyist. Not a thing wrong with that, but I would not expect CAP to provide advanced promotions based on a non-professional license ( How about having a rating for legal officers of "guardhouse" lawyer? I think not) On the other hand, you can go all the way to Master in Comms' without having any license of any kind, so no one should feel handicapped (challenged?) by not having a GROL or Ham license.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on January 10, 2010, 05:11:01 PM
The Amateur ticket ( I am an AE class) proves that you are an Amateur, and shows just that: that you are an Amateur, a hobbyist. Not a thing wrong with that, but I would not expect CAP to provide advanced promotions based on a non-professional license.
Major Lord
Is that kind of like advanced promotions for pilots who aren't commercially rated? Private pilots get 2nd Lt and instrument rated pilots get 1st Lt.
35-5 defines a difference between professional appointments and promotions based on mission skills. While the GROL is a professional license, it is described in the mission related skills section and rates 1st Lt. At the end of the day, the squadron commander can do a duty performance promotion if he or she desires. So all hope is not lost for licensed amateur radio operators, if their squadron commander agrees. Otherwise, it's only 6 months to 2nd Lt, assuming all level 1 stuff is done.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 10, 2010, 06:46:30 PMAt the end of the day, the squadron commander can do a duty performance promotion if he or she desires.
"Duty Performance" promotions are the standard promotions based on TIG & PD, yes, a Unit CC can do that, but only after the requirements are complete and the flags are green in eServices.
"Special Appointments" and "Mission Related Skills" appointments require a Wing CC's approval, and in some Regions, Region CC approval.