If so, please let me know how this is done and where in the regs it's found. Thank you.
Yes.
You are then a GTL at the "3" level, and anyone on your team drops to that level as well.
How its "done" is by completing the tasks on the GTL SQTR.
Its in the 60's.
Anyone over 18 can go from GTM 1,2, or 3 directly to GTL.
I don't recommend it, it seriously limits the missions you can lead teams on.
You can find more information in CAPR 60-3
Quote from: radar207 on January 03, 2010, 11:59:32 PM
If so, please let me know how this is done and where in the regs it's found. Thank you.
The preqs for GTL are GTM3 and 18 years old.
Quote from: IceNine on January 04, 2010, 12:31:50 AM
Anyone over 18 can go from GTM 1,2, or 3 directly to GTL.
I don't recommend it, it seriously limits the missions you can lead teams on.
You can find more information in CAPR 60-3
I see no reason why not to work on GTM1/2 and GTL at the same time. Yes a GTL with only GTM3 limits his/her team to GTM3 but that covers a lot of missions.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2010, 12:02:41 AM
Yes.
You are then a GTL at the "3" level, and anyone on your team drops to that level as well.
How its "done" is by completing the tasks on the GTL SQTR.
Its in the 60's.
Actually in 60-3 in the appendix, if you lead a team as a GTL, you get credit for GTL, GTM1-3.
As a GTL you you are supposed to have the knowledge of GTM1-3, even if there is a loophole built into the system, by going from GTM3 to GTL.
Non-concur.
You get equivalency credit for qualifications you already have under that row - don't possess it, you don't get it.
I also disagree that a GT3 with a GTL is supposed to know anything other than GT3 stuff. Since the team drops to his level, there's no requirement.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2010, 05:13:04 AM
Non-concur.
You get equivalency credit for qualifications you already have under that row - don't possess it, you don't get it.
I also disagree that a GT3 with a GTL is supposed to know anything other than GT3 stuff. Since the team drops to his level, there's no requirement.
Did they remove the appendix? I can't find it now......
Quote from: IceNine on January 04, 2010, 12:31:50 AM
Anyone over 18 can go from GTM 1,2, or 3 directly to GTL.
I don't recommend it, it seriously limits the missions you can lead teams on.
You can find more information in CAPR 60-3
A GTL is a GTL.....there is no need to be a GTL and a GTM1 to go on supposed GT1 missions.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 04, 2010, 08:05:20 AM
Quote from: IceNine on January 04, 2010, 12:31:50 AM
Anyone over 18 can go from GTM 1,2, or 3 directly to GTL.
I don't recommend it, it seriously limits the missions you can lead teams on.
You can find more information in CAPR 60-3
A GTL is a GTL.....there is no need to be a GTL and a GTM1 to go on supposed GT1 missions.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3 1-17 b (2) (a)
A ground team may only conduct operations within the limits of training of its lowest qualified member. A member qualified at one level, and having supervised trainee status for a higher level may be used operationally at the higher level if the trainee is properly equipped and supervised.
It would not make sense for this the exclude the GTL. He/she would have to be able to operate at the level of the team. So in theory the GTL/GTM2* could be supervised by a GTM2 as far as the GTM2 training but still be in command. Strange but no stranger than a 20 year old cadet GTL being supervised by an 18 year old senior member GTM3*
A GTL has completed all of the GTL tasks whether they went from GT3 to GTL or from GT3-GT2-GT1-GTL. The only difference is that the GT3-GTL leader probably has less experience since they would not have been required to do as many missions.
The limitation on operations applies only to the least qualified GTM.
Ok, i am not a big GT gut but I was looking at the SQTR's. The reqs for GTM 1 and 2 are the same for GTL, so if you complete GTL why arent you automatically a GTM 1 and 2?
Back to the original question, yes you can go directly from GTM-3 to GTL, unless your wing has a supplement requiring something else. For instance, Maryland requires GTM-2.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 04, 2010, 02:12:34 PM
Ok, i am not a big GT gut but I was looking at the SQTR's. The reqs for GTM 1 and 2 are the same for GTL, so if you complete GTL why arent you automatically a GTM 1 and 2?
Because they are different specialties and you therefore need the misison credits for them. However, many of the tasks do carry over.
Quote from: davedove on January 04, 2010, 02:15:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 04, 2010, 02:12:34 PM
Ok, i am not a big GT gut but I was looking at the SQTR's. The reqs for GTM 1 and 2 are the same for GTL, so if you complete GTL why arent you automatically a GTM 1 and 2?
Because they are different specialties and you therefore need the misison credits for them. However, many of the tasks do carry over.
Here's the kicker.....there is no need to maintain the GTM rateing once you have GTL.
Just as there is no need to maintain a scanner rateing once you get MP.
In going from GTM3 to GTL directly, which is OK per the reg as others have stated, five tasks are missed.
O-0202 - Measure Distance with Pace Count - GTM2 only
O-0203 - Navigate Past an Obstacle - GTM2 only
O-0401 - Work with Canine Search Teams - GTM1 only
O-0701 - Recognize and React to Air/Ground Signals - GTM1 only
O-0703 - Employ Air/Ground Signals - GTM1 only
Also, all the UDF tasks except one, O-0010 Prepare Urban DF Team Individual Equipment, are part of GTM3 or GTL.
These missed tasks as part of the GTL rating are an oversight and not intentional. The intent is that a GTL has completed all the GTM/UDF tasks in order to lead any team regardless of the individual members' ratings.
Mike
I can do those five tasks in about an hour. Or am I missing somethig?
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 04, 2010, 05:58:03 PM
I can do those five tasks in about an hour. Or am I missing something?
No one said it was rocket science, but you still have to do them. None of the GT curriculum is overly complicated,
and most of the tasks are simple and easy to accomplish if you are prepared and understand the requirements.
You really need an airplane to do the a/g signals correctly, but the rest could be done at a unit meeting.
You also need 4 additional missions.
Edit: Those are the tasks that are missed in the going from 3 to GTL, not the GTL tasks.
If your schedule permits, I'd just go to NESA for the GTL School. I went through it back 2008 and you learn a lot. You also come out with the GT2, GT1, and UDF. That way you're not limited. Plus you're learning from the people who litterally wrote the book.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on January 04, 2010, 05:20:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2010, 05:13:04 AM
Non-concur.
You get equivalency credit for qualifications you already have under that row - don't possess it, you don't get it.
I also disagree that a GT3 with a GTL is supposed to know anything other than GT3 stuff. Since the team drops to his level, there's no requirement.
Did they remove the appendix? I can't find it now......
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/emergency_services/operations_support/education_and_training/sortie_equivalency.cfm
Quote from: davedove on January 04, 2010, 02:14:15 PM
Back to the original question, yes you can go directly from GTM-3 to GTL, unless your wing has a supplement requiring something else. For instance, Maryland requires GTM-2.
Maryland can not legally require GTM-2 for GTLs as that requires an approved Wing supplement to CAPR 60-3. Maryland does not have an approved supplement according to National. Check this site for all approved supplements:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved_supplements_waivers_ois_etc_to_capr_603.cfm
If a individual doesn't follow the regulations, how can they expect other people to following the regulations? More "do as I say, not as I do"?
One of the questions I have about the GTM levels....is that the 60-3 restrictions to training do not have anything to do with training levels.....but gear levels.
Quote(2) Team training and experience must be appropriate for the mission (proficiency in DF use, ground rescue knowledge, concentrated area search procedures, missing person search, etc.). Ground Team Members – Level 1 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training up to 72 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 2 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 48 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 24 hours.
(a) A ground team may only conduct operations within the limits of training of its lowest qualified member. A member qualified at one level, and having supervised trainee status for a higher level may be used operationally at the higher level if the trainee is properly equipped and supervised.
(b) Team assignments must be carefully matched with team member qualifications before releasing a ground team on a sortie.
These are time limitations not training limitations. That would make sense if the training was some how matched this thinking....but the skills needed to go out into the field for 24 hours are exactly the same as those required for 72 hours.
Quote from: Short Field on January 04, 2010, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: davedove on January 04, 2010, 02:14:15 PM
Back to the original question, yes you can go directly from GTM-3 to GTL, unless your wing has a supplement requiring something else. For instance, Maryland requires GTM-2.
Maryland can not legally require GTM-2 for GTLs as that requires an approved Wing supplement to CAPR 60-3. Maryland does not have an approved supplement according to National. Check this site for all approved supplements:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved_supplements_waivers_ois_etc_to_capr_603.cfm
If a individual doesn't follow the regulations, how can they expect other people to following the regulations? More "do as I say, not as I do"?
Interesting, they did have an approved supplement posted on the wing website but it's not there now, probably because 60-3 was recently updated.
Okay, they did require it and may do a supplement to require it again.
Still, check with your local wing. ;D
QuoteThese are time limitations not training limitations. That would make sense if the training was some how matched this thinking....but the skills needed to go out into the field for 24 hours are exactly the same as those required for 72 hours.
It's based on the current FEMA Wilderness SAR Team Typing.
FEMA Type III/IV teams have to be self-sufficient in terms of personnel, equipment and full search capability in a wilderness environment for 24 hours. Type II teams have to be self-sufficient for 48 hours and Type I teams for 72 hours.
The proposed FEMA typing, which is no where close to being published, does away with all that and all Land SAR teams (crews, squads) have to be self-sustaining for 72 hours minimum.
Mike
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 04, 2010, 05:58:03 PM
I can do those five tasks in about an hour. Or am I missing something?
You'll be missing five SQTR task signoffs if you whip through those tasks in only an hour if I'm supervising the GTM training. ;D
(Note: Flyguy and I are in the same wing- no flames intended.)
Good stuff. Thank you all.