I've always wondered why some CAP activities take place on sunday and how that effects Abrahamic religions. (Jews, and Christians)
"It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." - Exodus 31:17
I know CAP isn't really work but its an activity and hardly rest, I'm a Christian myself and always wondered that.
Abrahamic religions?
Quote from: Hawk200 on November 18, 2009, 03:34:42 AM
Abrahamic religions?
Yes, Religons that believe in the prophet Arbaham.
CAP activities take place on days that make sense for CAP. Members come from a variety of religious backgrounds and from no religious background at all. I've had squadron members who faithfully observe the sabbath on either Saturdays or Sundays, and in both cases these people were able to participate actively in CAP and uphold their religious convictions. That's plenty evidence for me that we don't need to cater to any one particular (or all) religious observance as an organization.
Or do you mean religions that attend church on Sunday? I would say its between you and God or your church. CAP has activities on the weekends to accommodate work schedules, not for any religious reasons.
Quote from: Pylon on November 18, 2009, 03:37:10 AM
CAP activities take place on days that make sense for CAP. Members come from a variety of religious backgrounds and from no religious background at all. I've had squadron members who observe the sabbath on either Saturdays or Sundays, and in both cases these people were able to participate actively in CAP and uphold their religious convictions.
8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday
Quote8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday
Your point?
These activities are at typical times, based on availability of participants, leaders, and in some cases, transportation.
Again, CAP does it because thats when most members, cadets and seniors can attend. It has nothing to do with the days people attend church.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 18, 2009, 03:47:25 AM
Quote8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday
Your point?
These activities are at typical times, based on availability of participants, leaders, and in some cases, transportation.
I'm not saying CAP chooses these days because we attend church on them (saturday/sunday)
I'm speaking that CAP does activities on days when theres a religious conflict
Well, they key is we're all volunteers, so you do not have to show up. Simple isn't? ;D
Search the net for discussions about observing the Sabbath. In addition to different beliefs about which day is the Sabbath, you'll also find New Testament references to justifications for no longer observing the Sabbath. Obviously not everyone subscribes to the New Testament. Instead of taking sides it is best for CAP to stay away from such issues. Each member makes their own choices about which activities they participate in.
Darn! Where was Daniel when I got stuck on Firewatch in the Corps on Sundays??? ;D
Well-- I'm just saying at encampment (which I think I got the days wrong, I think it was Friday-the next saturday)
I remember waking up and not even being able to cross myself much less pull out a bible and read abit as there was too much to be done
Quote from: Daniel L on November 18, 2009, 04:08:55 AM
Well-- I'm just saying at encampment (which I think I got the days wrong, I think it was Friday-the next saturday)
I remember waking up and not even being able to cross myself much less pull out a bible and read abit as there was too much to be done
I simply don't believe that. I don't believe for a minute that if you had made known your wishes to perform or go to some sort of religious observation, that it wouldn't have been accommodated. I also don't believe that, should you have wished to have taken some time to read a bible or pray, that your flight staff wouldn't have accommodated. Furthermore, I've never seen an encampment where cadets didn't have personal time which they could use as each individual saw fit.
I have been to encampments from New York to Hawaii, and have always seen Chaplains on staff. I have always seen cadets who desired given the appropriate time away from the activity and driven by SMs to Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish services. When I was the only person of my particular religious persuasion as a cadet at Flight Academy in Virginia, back in the day, I had a SM drive me all the way to the next town to attend services. I had a very faithful Orthodox Jewish cadet in my flight when I was an encampment TAC officer, and even he had no problems meeting the encampment standards and passing while taking off the appropriate times to meet his religious requirements.
If you make your desires known, CAP will be pretty accommodating. So let's not start rumors that Civil Air Patrol is so hard on our cadets that we don't give religious cadets even so much as a few free seconds to worship on their sabbath, because that would be categorically untrue.
Well, that's the thing I'm heavily passive, I didn't make a sound. I had only about ten minutes personal time in the morning and 30 a night. What I'm more talking is that part of my religon always was very bold and CAP had activities on Sunday. Also, I wasn't putting anyone on trail, and there will be no ordeal. I just was interested in policies which is what CAPtalk if for. I didn't know I could ask for time for religious observation
Quote from: Daniel L on November 18, 2009, 04:28:28 AM
Well, that's the thing I'm heavily passive, I didn't make a sound. I had only about ten minutes personal time in the morning and 30 a night. What I'm more talking is that part of my religon always was very bold and CAP had activities on Sunday. Also, I wasn't putting anyone on trail, and there will be no ordeal. I just was interested in policies which is what CAPtalk if for. I didn't know I could ask for time for religious observation
Well, according to your signature block, you're an NCO. You should be speaking up, both for your needs and the needs of those under you. If you don't ask questions, you won't learn the answers. There's nothing wrong with coming on CAP Talk and asking, but you should be making the same questions of your chain of command.
Our Spring Encampment is spread over two weekends, Fri-Sun x 2.
The second Sunday we aren't there long enough before pass and review for church. The first week, those who wish to go to church/services are given the chance to do so. If we are short on time, then a chaplain will lead a small ceremony.
I'm not religious, so it never concerned me, but out of some 100 participants, I don't think more than 20 went any given year. Same for weekend activities, most people don't go to Church weekly, and if they do, sometimes they choose CAP over services.
Encampment Commanders, activity directors, etc are supposed to provide reasonable accommodations for those attending their activities including religious observation. Part of the reason there is the "complete 80% of an activity is specifically for these types of reasons.
For example, Orthodox Jews can't use cars on the Sabbath, which sometimes interferes with their abilities to arrive at encampments, activities on the designated starting day.
Also, I've never been to an encampment or other activity (COS, RCLS, ALS, etc) which didn't provide for religious accommodations, especially on Sunday mornings. On Saturday night the members were briefed as to what services were being held and where. They were also told that if they needed to go somewhere else (Temple, Russian Orthodox, Mosque, etc) that reasonable accommodations would be made.
The last encampment I attended had a Muslim cadet who needed to pray multiple times a day. It wasn't a problem. He noted his religious needs, the staff worked out accommodations.
Smaller activities, however, usually don't have the time to take half of their day to accommodate those types of needs because the time span is too short and the training would be able to get done. In those cases though, they're usually local and you have a better option of not going.
Reasonable accommodations are met, but realistically, you'd probably only have 3-4 days a year that weren't considered to be sacred days by some religion in the world.
If you need/want to worship, just let your staff know at these events - they will accommodate (reasonably).
The reason we have activities on Saturday and Sunday has almost nothing to do with religion directly. Indirectly, because of our Judeo-Christian Heritage our normal work week in the USA is Monday-Friday.
The simple fact is that most people in America work for a living, and most of them work Monday through Friday. That means there is a good chance if the activities were scheduled during the week instead of on the weekend, the activity director and most of the participants would be unable to attend. This isn't going to change until CAP starts paying us a salary, people have to feed their families.
When I was actively helping to schedule weekend training we learned how important faith is to the volunteers. To honor these needs we made local church services available to all participants, and when chaplains were available we rented the post chapel and services were conducted. We did our best, but there was nothing we could do if participants did not make their needs known.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 18, 2009, 01:12:11 PM
When I was actively helping to schedule weekend training we learned how important faith is to the volunteers. To honor these needs we made local church services available to all participants, and when chaplains were available we rented the post chapel and services were conducted. We did our best, but there was nothing we could do if participants did not make their needs known.
Exactly. In my experience in CAP commanders and chaplains will bend over backwards to respect and accommodate religious obligations and needs of the members who are at events, exercises or missions. It is up to the individual members to let the commanders know as soon as a possible about their religious needs.
I am not completely sure I understand the gist of your question. If you are asking why CAP activities occur on the only two days in the week most CAP members are not at work or in school, I think the reason is self evident. If you are asking if some members have a conflict with participating in any CAP activities on the Sabbath, the answer is clearly, that some do, but most don't. CAP makes reasonable accommodations for the religious beliefs and practices of its members at activities, but you have to be reasonable. If for instance, a Hasidic Jew decided that he had to let go of the controls of his aircraft at sunset on Fridays, things could get sticky.
From the Christian perspective, I think that the vast majority of American Christians fall back to Mark 2:27. Something along the lines of the Sabbath is made for Man, not man for the Sabbath. ( Yes, I know its not an exact quote, but unless you are fluent in Aramaic, ancient Hebrew, or Koena, keep it to yourselves!) I for one am glad the fire and police departments will come on Sundays! Some Christians believe that the biblical injunction against "killing"prevents any membership in the uniformed services. Some religions believe that killing unbelievers is their sacred duty, a practice CAP officially frowns on. I don't think most CAP members have conflicts between their work and their religious duties, but if they do, they are free to act as they choose without consequences arising from CAP.
Major Lord
Cadet Lewis,
A few thoughts from a retired CAP chaplain and former squadron commander.
First, CAP holds activities at times when the majority of its volunteers can LIKELY participate. That time is all-too-often evenings and weekends.
The intention is accommodation.
One of the important aspects of a chaplain's job is RELIGIOUS ACCOMMODATION, trying to accommodate the spiritual and religious needs of all CAP members within the limits and constraints of the program and the organization. All of the chaplains I knew or know were quite deliberate in his/her efforts to accommodate members.
These efforts were variously suucessful. But a key element to the potential for success has to do with communication. Both commanders (and that includes encampment commanders and mission ICs and the like) need to know of the needs of the members under their command. Those needs include spiritual and religious ones as well as more common ones such as food, water and rest.
Members must work with their leaders (ideally through the chaplains) and communicate their spiritual/religious needs or most likely they will be inadvertently overlooked.
I know as an encampment chaplain, myself, efforts were made to meet the religious needs of all faiths. I have conducted Christian worship services and participated in Jewish Sabbath observations while at encampments. I have arranged for Roman Catholic mass, and I know of a chaplain colleague who ensured several Muslim cadets that they could practice their daily prayer regimen even during the tight schedules of an encampment.
We even implemented a daily VOLUNTARY devotional (just before lights-out) which was very popular.
Again the key to this was communication. If the chaplain didn't know of the specific religious accommodations needed, said accommodations likely would not come to be.
Seek out the chaplain and make your needs known. That's why they're there in the first place.
But your personal responsibility in this communication process is equally vital. And as an Cadet NCO, you need to listen to those under your supervision as well, to ensure that they too are accommodated.
Also, on a more theological note, one can logically argue that Sabbath keeping (in the Christian tradition) need not occur on a specific day of the week, just that it does occur. Traditionally, Christians worship on Sunday (the day AFTER the Jewish Sabbath) as this was the "day of resurrection" and the first day of the week.
But Christians, seemingly, are free to choose the day and the means of Sabbath-keeping.
Marva Dawn has written a wonderful book about this entitled Keeping the Sabbath Wholly: published by Eerdmans (1989). It's a good discussion of meaningful, yet practical, Christian Sabbath-keeping within our ever-so-busy lives.
Blessings upon your CAP career.
Quote from: Daniel L on November 18, 2009, 03:32:34 AM
I've always wondered why some CAP activities take place on sunday and how that effects Abrahamic religions. (Jews, and Christians)
CAP is not a religious organization and thus our activities occur when most of the members can participate. It has been my experience that this
affects Abrahamic religions very little.
(By the way, the Jewish sabbath is not on Sunday. It occurs from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday)
Something I've suggested when folks complained about me scheduling courses I'm directing - direct one yourself. You can choose the schedule and work with folks to make it happen.
You'd think I was suggesting they kill their first born child or something...
To be fair, Muslims also consider themselves to be Abrahamic, or at least believe that Abraham was the first Muslim. Their Sabbath is Friday, but they don't have a no-work rule. With various flavor Christians, Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, Druids, Wiccans, Pastafarians, etc. there would not be any days left to conduct CAP activities. We have seen Cadets who could never go to encampment, or other RON activities, since their religion or parental units forbid skipping their particular services. Quite a shame. Trying to schedule things like Rocket School can get pretty iffy if you can't have consecutive weekends. I think anyone criticizing you for trying to schedule activities that don't fit everyone's exact needs should be soundly thrashed about the head and shoulders.....Without activities, the Cadet program is worthless.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on November 19, 2009, 10:05:56 PMWith various flavor Christians, Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, Druids, Wiccans, Pastafarians, etc.
mmmm....pasta...heavenly carbs....
Quote from: Major Lord on November 19, 2009, 10:05:56 PM
To be fair, Muslims also consider themselves to be Abrahamic, or at least believe that Abraham was the first Muslim. Their Sabbath is Friday, but they don't have a no-work rule. With various flavor Christians, Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, Druids, Wiccans, Pastafarians, etc. there would not be any days left to conduct CAP activities. We have seen Cadets who could never go to encampment, or other RON activities, since their religion or parental units forbid skipping their particular services. Quite a shame. Trying to schedule things like Rocket School can get pretty iffy if you can't have consecutive weekends. I think anyone criticizing you for trying to schedule activities that don't fit everyone's exact needs should be soundly thrashed about the head and shoulders.....Without activities, the Cadet program is worthless.
Major Lord
While I agree with what you've written about religious "needs" or "requirements" (within our religiously pluralistic nation and similarly pluralistic CAP and EXCLUSIVE, that is, of the "typo" regarding the Rastafarians) potentially eliminating activities to the detriment of the program (ESPECIALLY the Cadet Program), I do feel that some consideration needs to be given PROACTIVELY by activity leaders/planners to accommodate participating member's religious needs and/or practices, where possible/practicable.
This effort toward accommodation can complicate event planning, I know, I've been an IC, a Wing DOS, and on Region and NHQ (volunteer) staff. But even though it is difficult it is important, nevertheless. I've done it; it can be done.
That's where involving the Chaplain Corps in advanced planning can be helpful. Accommodating religious needs could be as simple as offering an ecumenical worship service or devotional BEFORE the beginning of the day's events or at its conclusion.
It might be that you politely excuse a Muslim member for brief periods during the day to pray. I know we allow "smoke breaks" (cough!) so why not breaks for the faithful?
While I will acknowledge that it would LIKELY be impossible to be completely accommodating and/or inclusive in all CAP activities, but we can try NOT to be inadvertently exclusive either.
Again, communicate with your chaplains, as I heard a Navy O-6 chaplain say on the PBS series "Carrier," chaplains are there to protect everyone's "First Amendment Right" to freedom of religion. They can and will help you.
Again, you won't be 100% successful, but it might help grow the program through hospitality and tolerance, both VERY American virtues. And that hospitality and tolerance are bilateral, they should be expected of the member as well. We must work together.
Shalom.
p.s. my postscript about "Religious Right" is a reference NOT to politics at all, but rather to false/phony piety (e.g. Mark 12: 38-40). Right is used in its Greek sense "Doxy." I apologize to all if that was misunderstood.
QuoteThey can and will help you.
:D
Thanks for the good laugh! ;D
A few comments:
-I think a better verse for Christians would be Mark 3:4. Most Christians (And Jews and Muslims and others) would argue that the saving of life takes precedence over religious observance. (A good example from a Jewish perspective would be Hatzollah, the Orthodox Jewish volunteer ambulance service.)
-The "Pastafarian" reference isn't a typo. It's a reference to the parody religion centered around the "Flying Spaghetti Monster."
-If cadets aren't permitted to take part in activities for religious reasons, it might be a good idea to confirm it with the parents. Some may be willing to let their kids take part in CAP activities, but the kids may not realize it, or be too afraid to ask.
You GUYs don't get it. We are 1st and foremost The United States Air Force's mainland Search and Rescue arm, That is our Duty to the American People who pay our bills. The USAF does not take SUNDAY off, neither do plane crashes or natural disasters. Police and Firemen never take Sunday off.
If you can't understand that maybe you need to re-read your Membership material, and CAP regulations.
As a Volunteer you can Un-Volunteer on your day of worship, You should not expect your Peers to stop because you think we should, That would be un-American
Quote from: wingnut55 on November 20, 2009, 07:23:29 AM
You GUYs don't get it. We are 1st and foremost The United States Air Force's mainland Search and Rescue arm, That is our Duty to the American People who pay our bills. The USAF does not take SUNDAY off, neither do plane crashes or natural disasters. Police and Firemen never take Sunday off.
If you can't understand that maybe you need to re-read your Membership material, and CAP regulations.
As a Volunteer you can Un-Volunteer on your day of worship, You should not expect your Peers to stop because you think we should, That would be un-American
I was going to reply after the first 1/3 of the post. After the whole post...I won't bother.
Quote from: wingnut55 on November 20, 2009, 07:23:29 AM
The USAF does not take SUNDAY off, neither do plane crashes or natural disasters. Police and Firemen never take Sunday off.
What?!!?
Quote from: wingnut55 on November 20, 2009, 07:23:29 AM
You GUYs don't get it. We are 1st and foremost The United States Air Force's mainland Search and Rescue arm, That is our Duty to the American People who pay our bills. The USAF does not take SUNDAY off, neither do plane crashes or natural disasters. Police and Firemen never take Sunday off.
If you can't understand that maybe you need to re-read your Membership material, and CAP regulations.
As a Volunteer you can Un-Volunteer on your day of worship, You should not expect your Peers to stop because you think we should, That would be un-American
Perhaps I don't get it, but I doubt that. As a now-retired 23-year CAP veteran as well as a former street and flight paramedic and firefighter (who spent 30 years in emergency services), whose now a clergyperson (and an EMS chaplain), I take exception with most of what you've written.
First, that I/we "don't get it" ... that [CAP is] 1st and foremost The United States Air Force's mainland Search and Rescue arm." And you added that, "If you can't understand that maybe you need to re-read your Membership material, and CAP regulations."
As I recall my Level I orientation from 1985, and all of the Level I classes I taught (along with SLSs, CLCs and Staff Colleges) I believe CAP has THREE (3) missions. Whilst emergency services is ONE of those missions it is not stated anywhere within the regulations or "membership materials" that I can find that it is preeminent over the other two. Furthermore, I know that there are CAP members in good standing who are participants in one, two, or all three of those missions.
CAP's functional duty, thus to my mind, is BALANCING multiple missions effectively.
Second point of disagreement, CAP's emergency services mission is no longer exclusively to be the USAF's "mainland Search and Rescue arm." ES involves many other controlling agencies and missions from counter-drug to disaster relief to homeland security. Again CAP must BALANCE its resources, material and human, to accomplish effectively a diverse number of missions for a myriad of agencies and scenarios.
Third point, you wrote, "The USAF does not take SUNDAY off, neither do plane crashes or natural disasters. Police and Firemen never take Sunday off." While the entirety of the USAF doesn't take EVERY Sunday off, nor does EVERY firefighter or police officer or EMS responders, INDIVIDUALS, however, do.
Both military "warfighters" and civilian emergency workers have to BALANCE their careers and oaths with the needs of their own bodies, minds, and souls. They must BALANCE career and family. While you are an Airman by enlistment and oath 24/7, even in combat efforts are made to grant rest and recuperation. And the USAF and other branches of our armed forces are concerned enough about the spiritual/religious needs of their personnel to commission chaplains to minister to them, even in (especially during) combat situations. It's why we have mental health personnel to attend to their emotional needs and morale and welfare resources for the troops and their dependents back home.
As a retired paramedic and firefighter, I can tell you we do take time off. Mind you, when we are on-duty we re just that, on-duty. But off-duty time is vital too. Again the important term is BALANCE.
Fourth point, you wrote, "As a Volunteer you can Un-Volunteer on your day of worship, You should not expect your Peers to stop because you think we should, That would be un-American." I take great exception with any American calling another "un-American." Or suggesting that having BALANCE I one's life, or taking time to worship is similarly "un-American."
But my real objection is that to quote you, it seems you "don't get it." Cadet Lewis, who originally penned the question to the Board, was asking about BALANCING his new CAP member role with his faith life.
Likely, he's been worshiping far longer than he's been in CAP. It is a fair question to ask. I suggest all CAP members, likewise, need to ask questions about BALANCING their involvement with the other priorities in their life (e.g. family, work, education, etc.).
That is healthy. One could potentially place too great a priority on CAP involvement to a degree that one loses their job, their marriage, drops out of school and the like. I certainly don't think it would be un-American to suggest to a CAP cadet that quitting school to be in the cadet program would be a poor choice. Likewise it would not be un-American to advise a senior member not to get themselves fired from their job (and sole financial support for their family) to chase an ELT.
A good choice is one of proper BALANCE.
I do not suggest shutting down CAP activities on weekends, that is the most accommodating time for most CAP members to attend. It's sensible.
Likewise I do not suggest hanging a moniker of "un-American" on a CAP member who either chooses (for whatever reason) NOT to participate in the ES mission or in a given CAP activity because of other priorities, whether family, work, or religion. To me that's a principled stance reflexive of the highest American value, freedom of choice.
However, I wasn't suggesting shutting down or discouraging participation in weekend missions, training or activities. I was suggesting working to accommodate the great diversity in CAP membership and their varied faith traditions.
For example, take a weekend SAREX (or REDCAP) ... hold a worship service for Christians on Sunday BEFORE morning briefing or several times during the extensive crew downtime during the day. Hold SAREXs over Friday-Sunday so that those who feel the need to take Sabbath on Friday-Saturday could train on Sunday when some of members who wish to worship on Sunday might be able to enjoy some downtime and worship.
Navy Chaplain Carey Cash in his book "A Table in the Presence" described how, while deployed with the Marine invasion force during Iraqi Freedom, he was able to share the Christian sacrament of Holy Communion with Marines by going from one armored personnel carrier to the next quickly granting those troops (who desired the sacrament) the chance to receive it before battle. Sounds both pretty cleverly accommodating and quite American ... and wonderfully pastoral as well.
All I wanted to suggest to Cadet Lewis was that we all need to work together to accommodate and look out for one another in CAP. It's a two way street. We all need to give and we all need to communicate our needs. I also wanted him, and everyone else to know that, where religious accommodation is concerned, it is CAP regulation that our chaplains handle that task as they are most qualified to handle it. It is a highly underutilized resource for commander and ICs, IMHO.
I don't want anyone to "un-volunteer" but I, also, don't want people to have to choose between their faith and CAP because there's no reason that they should have to. We can minimize or eliminate that problem with some thoughtful planning, some gracious accommodation, and some very American hospitality.
However, name-calling or discouraging members from CAP participation for making principled life priority-based choices benefits no one; not CAP, not the USAF, not those plane crash victims, and certainly not the "American People who pay [the] bills."
Shalom.
Amen, Chaplain.
Further, not only is it in my religious belief system to encourage people in the exercise of their religion, even if I may disagree with it (I'm one of the Baptists who hasn't forgotten the early days of Baptists in the USA), I also am a firm believer in an individual's First Amendment rights to believe whatever they wish to believe, and that, as CAP members, we should respect that, even if we disagree. We may not be called to protect other people's right to exercise those like the military has been, but those ideals are part of what citizenship entails.
To Chaplain Don. Good job on the explanation. The "bumper sticker" theological implication is both unfortunate and humorous. The "religious right" is a term that has the potential to be inflamatory and blankets a groups with a diversity of views that are, to one degree or another, as different as those who characterize the left. I once saw a bumper sticker that said "The Religious Left Will Be", and found it to be humorous as well, but I will not mount in on my bumper, nor will I appeal to it as my moniker.
Quote from: Daniel L on November 18, 2009, 03:32:34 AM
I've always wondered why some CAP activities take place on sunday and how that effects Abrahamic religions. (Jews, and Christians)
In my experience very few CAP activities are held on Sunday. If anything avoiding the use of Sunday for SAREXs really limits our training opportunities. However, while the main event of our SAREXs is usually on Saturdays, there are often opportunities on Sunday for some extra credit.
I do hear from some old timers that they liked it better when SAREX's would go overnight, sometimes from Friday night till Sunday afternoon.