Since we are such an oddity in the CAP, sound off!
I kept my NCO rank as I am proud of what I did in the ARNG. I work some with our Cadet program and my son. I want to focus on learning and this lets me do more variety of things without worrying about getting promoted. I had considered a sponsor membership but wanted to be more active than that.
CS
Hello citizensoldier !! Welcome to C.A.P. and CAP Talk ! I value the knowledge of an NCO ! Glad to see another NCO join C.A.P. ;D Have a great day! ;D
HI wing SSgt sounding off. Just about anybody can be a 2nd LT, it takes something special to be a CAP NCO!
+1 Agreed! I wish there were more NCOs in C.A.P.
Quote from: Flight Officer on October 20, 2009, 03:05:22 AM
+1 Agreed! I wish there were more NCOs in C.A.P.
Why?
(http://members.cox.net/dragnd/smileys/popcorn.gif)
There are far too many officers on the Senior Member side of C.A.P. (in my opinion). With more NCOs, cadet NCOs will have someone to look up to more than they would an officer. With C.A.P. being the USAF Auxiliary, I encourage NCOs to come in and remain an NCO bringing a broader spectrum in the Senior Member ranks. That is just my say. I am subject to being corrected in the near future if I am wrong.
^ We already have a problem with "Chief Forever". The cadet program is about being a mustang not stopping because NCO's get the work done.
Introducing a culture where cadets look up to NCO's "more than" officers as you say would cause a bottom heavy culture in the cadet program and lead to fewer cadets reaching potential.
I have nothing against the NCO corp, and while there is no NCO program there are invaluable lessons that we non-prior service can learn from anyone with time served.
Quote from: Flight Officer on October 20, 2009, 04:40:40 AM
cadet NCOs will have someone to look up to more than they would an officer.
Unless cadet NCOs stall out in the program, they are on their way to becoming a cadet Officer. Cadet NCOs need to be learning how to become cadet Officers. You can't compare Cadet NCOs with RM NCOs. Do you really want a cadet to stop progressing at cadet CMSgt because they feel superior to a cadet 2nd Lt?
With NCOs, NCO cadets will be able to look up to NCO and learn from them while they are the NCO ranks. I encourage cadets to move on up to being an officer and even go to Cadet Colonel. I am not saying that the cadet should stop at the NCO stage just because they might feel superior to a cadet officer.
That would only work if there were a program that used senior NCO's the same way the military does. What you said above isn't feasible by any stretch in the current rev of the senior program. We currently don't use CAP NCO's for any function that we don't use officers for, there is no functional distinction.
In CAP Senior NCO's are just seniors that don't get promoted, and wear their current or prior service on their sleeve.
There really are no programmatic advantages to being a CAP senior NCO. But their are express disadvantages. But you can see one of the other 15 threads on this for all of those arguments.
I reached my terminal grade(LtCol) 19 years ago. If CAP actually had a program where NCO's could get advancerd as proposed to the National Board, I would consider reverting to SMSgt and hopefully getting CMSgt at the appropriate time. Of course if National would grant COL to those who have completed the GRW requirements and a certain time in grade, I would wait on that.
Quote from: Flight Officer on October 20, 2009, 04:58:45 AM
With NCOs, NCO cadets will be able to look up to NCO and learn from them while they are the NCO ranks. I encourage cadets to move on up to being an officer and even go to Cadet Colonel. I am not saying that the cadet should stop at the NCO stage just because they might feel superior to a cadet officer.
As a recently retired USAF SNCO....you can do all those things while still being a CAP officer. Being a leader and a good example has nothing to do with what is on your collar or shirt sleeve.
The benifits of CAP NCO are outweighted by the confusion they cause because they do not fit into the CAP PD structure.
CAP NCOs are nothing more then then a clique of ex-/current NCOs who get to say "look at me I'm different".
I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?
Now...I think there could be a CAP NCO corp with a specific job, a progression process, and PD system....and I have made that suggestion here on CAPTALK...but I have not seen any intrest from national on that part.
Until the role of NCO's are clearly spelled out, their authority defined and a logical and acheivalbe progression system devised....there is just no point to CAP NCOs.
"I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?"
And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring. I sometimes wonder how the membership numbers would change if instead of being "officers" every senior members except for those in leadership (squadron,group,etc commanders) were enlisted? No shinny bling, no one impersonating officers, no berry boards, no trolling for salutes.
Now, before I get hate mail from 50 people saying,"I'm here to serve" We all know there are plenty here who are here for the service to community and country. I'm talking about those who are here for the sole purpose of being called an officer and getting to dress up. It reminds me of an old thread on here about VSAF and whether people would still volunteer if they weren't allowed to wear their rank. Many people didn't care but there were still those who put the bling before service.
.02
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PM"I am not putting down anyone who has chosen to remain and NCO....I'm not....but what does a CAP NCO do that a CAP Lt can't?"
And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.
Why do you think a CAP Lt wouldn't have the same if not more prior military experience? And with all the professional educators floating around, you really don't want to compare experience in teaching, training, and mentoring.
The CAP Cadet Program may use military ranks, but it does not mirror the RM. It comes closer to mirroring the various ROTC programs. In ROTC, you progress through cadet enlisted ranks for the first two years, then if you stick iwth the program, you are a cadet 2nd Lt and compete for officer rank the last two years. There are no "career" cadet NCOs. There are also no RM NCOs training the cadets in ROTC. (If someone saw a RM NCO training cadets, let me know as I never saw one. There might be a few NCO led programs like firearms training but I only saw senior cadets leading the training.)
FYI - I am a retired mustang officer so I do understand and value the NCO experience.
Promotions in CAP represent special skills and professional development. RM NCOs are afforded advanced promotion based on their rank and receive credit for their military PME.
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PMAnd what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.
Sure thing...and that RM NCO can become a CAP officer just as easy with out complicating our already convoluted rank structure.....I know because I did and I do.
CAP officers have a training program, a progression program and for the most part a structure that is understood by people both in and out of CAP.
You start throwing in NCOs.....well what if the good SSgt wants to be an IC or a mission pilot. We got outside people scratching their head trying to figure out why the SSgt is bossing around a bunch of Lt Cols and Majs.
I think CAP could use an NCO corps....with a very specific job and progression program. But as it stand right now....CAP NCOs are simply former (or current) NCOs who want to be outside the normal CAP system.
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 20, 2009, 06:30:14 AM
Of course if National would grant COL to those who have completed the GRW requirements and a certain time in grade, I would wait on that.
I support that idea whole-heartedly, Cecil! In fact, I think I made a suggestion a while back of such a thing: promote to colonel with a GRW and 15 to 20 years in grade at lieutenant colonel. (I know that's
way longer than required in the RM, but hey -- how many people stick around that long? Shouldn't they be rewarded for it in some way?)
Jack
Quote from: lordmonar on October 21, 2009, 09:02:40 AM
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PMAnd what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't? At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.
Sure thing...and that RM NCO can become a CAP officer just as easy with out complicating our already convoluted rank structure.....I know because I did and I do.
CAP officers have a training program, a progression program and for the most part a structure that is understood by people both in and out of CAP.
You start throwing in NCOs.....well what if the good SSgt wants to be an IC or a mission pilot. We got outside people scratching their head trying to figure out why the SSgt is bossing around a bunch of Lt Cols and Majs.
I think CAP could use an NCO corps....with a very specific job and progression program. But as it stand right now....CAP NCOs are simply former (or current) NCOs who want to be outside the normal CAP system.
As we can agree that we could use an NCO Corps, it does have to begin somewhere. The question now becomes what do we do to make it into something? I do disagree that we are out of the normal CAP system, maybe the current histoical one. In our Civil Defense past, we had enlisted members and NCOs.
CS
CS
http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/Art_Media/large/MilitaryUniforms_CAP1942_B3CivilAirPatrol.jpg
I would fully support instituting promotions for CAP NCO's. We did have them, way back in the mists of time, from WWII until the 1970s (not sure about the year that ended). I've seen pictures of a CAP NCO rank structure in an old book on U.S. military insignia that was:
Airman: one stripe
Airman First Class: two stripes
Sergeant: three stripes
Staff Sergeant: three stripes/one below
Technical Sergeant: three stripes/two below
Master Sergeant: three stripes/three below
And, of course, I'm sure many of you have seen this picture:
http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Image:M-sgt-cap.jpg
I would also support bringing back warrant officers.
That would be good for seniors who want to just follow one specialty track, excel at it, and who don't have any aspirations toward command. I'd jump to that in a heartbeat (Captain to CW3).
Progression from WO1 to CWO5 would be roughly equivalent to progression from 2/LT to LTC, but with more emphasis on professional development in one's chosen specialty track than on leadership responsibilities.
Restating the obvious: The AF doesn't have WO's, though there has been talk about bringing them back. However, the AF also doesn't have the Flight Officer grades, and we do. The AF has promotable enlisted/NCO's, and we don't. We have buck sergeants and the AF doesn't.
But it is all so much a chasing after the wind.
Quote from: BGNightfall on October 20, 2009, 03:04:00 AM
HI wing SSgt sounding off. Just about anybody can be a 2nd LT, it takes something special to be a CAP NCO!
Yes, service in the military.
We have a CPT who would have retained his CWO 3 if he could have. He was a Blackhawk pilot with the 160th SOAR. He actually encouraged me keeping the NCO rank.
CS
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PM
And what can a CAP LT teach that a NCO can't?
That they understand fully how CAP works.
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PM
At least with an NCO you have someone who has prior military experience and most times someone who has experience in teaching, training and mentoring.
Not a factor - we get that with all types of members, and you could make the counter argument that most of CAP Senior Member staff duties are more professional/managerial than hands-on, in which case an NCO would be an inappropriate fit.
Quote from: JK657 on October 20, 2009, 10:39:39 PM
I sometimes wonder how the membership numbers would change if instead of being "officers" every senior members except for those in leadership (squadron,group,etc commanders) were enlisted? No shinny bling, no one impersonating officers, no berry boards, no trolling for salutes.
It would be exactly the same. The uniform and grade are certainly a recruiting factor, but few members who are of any value stay for just that or rise to positions of authority.
Repeating now for those of you who don't have the benefit of the SEARCH button.
First, 90+ percent of Americans, and probably a higher percentage of CAP members (especially Seniors) don't have a clue about the role or importance of the enlisted corps in our military. They only know what they see on television and movies and rarely is any "hero" in a mainstream movie enlisted, and when they are, their grade usually isn't a factor in the story.
I would hold up Band of Brothers as one of the rare exceptions (without meaning to solicit more examples).
Second, for all that it is, and is not, the enlisted corps is first and foremost a caste-like system which divides the "doers" (and the "diers") from the "managers". This is by design, of course, as it is very difficult to send 10,000 men to mortal combat if you are personal friends with all of them. Further, it is difficult, with exceptions, to train the same person to be effective in small-squad tactics, and Regimental(+)-level deployment and logistics, and have them be proficient on a whim at both.
The other hard-fast reality here is that the enlisted get most of the crap jobs and less pay, in return for less high-level, non-specialized responsibility.
None of this is relevant to CAP.
Because of its volunteer paradigm, CAP 2nd Lt's command units and large activities, while Col's empty trash cans. There is no division of duty, task, or responsibility based on grade. Only training, qualifications, and staff posting, designate authority and responsibility.
I'd have no issue at all with instituting an enlisted-type grade structure to either lengthen the time to 2nd Lt, or indicate those who prefer to specialize in tactical roles instead of staff or command. (Most pilots should probably just be flight officers and be left alone about PD until such time as they are interested in command). But all that system would do would be to indicate TIG and inertia of the membership, it would not and could not separate duties by grade.
For all of you who advocate a true "enlisted corps" in CAP, one with a real division of duties between "doers" and "managers", what do you think it would do to the morale and membership status of the average new member who sees that the "officers" get to tell the "enlisted" what to do, and push all the crap jobs downstream?
We know today that we have too many "misinformed" field-grade officers who believe they have some special mojo because of their finery. How do you think these same people would act if they really could exercise job assignments based on rank?
And without that division, if you think being an NCO means anything in a CAP context, you just don't get it.
To bring this back to the intent of the OP, you asked for CAP NCO's to check in, and you've gotten about the same response here as in the "real" world.
At my last check there were less than 100 total in the whole of CAP, which doesn't say anything about CAP anymore than it would saying the same thing about the ARC. The counter to that would be that a Wing CC should really be a General, were we to match similar authority and scope of command to similar services, but when that subject comes up, no one thinks its a good idea. If grade is that important to the equation, you need to be consistent all the way from start to finish.
The current structure has evolved to the point where grade is an indicator of longevity and training - to be respected for what it is in our context, especially for those who carry it properly, and nothing more (or less).