what Specialty tracks are considered Command staff for a (composite squadron if it matters) squadron. Also What are the other classifications for the other tracks . Is it just staff Officer? Anyone that is not either of the two would just be a member of the squadron?
From what I know and have seen in the member reports section is: Advisor to the commander, deputy commander, deputy commander for cadets, deputy commander for seniors, goverment relations advisor, health services, safety and Historian, Yes Historian are command staff positions. Any others?
Command is generally the Commander, Deputy(s) and Safety.
Meh, retract, thatr's more of an ICS deal than a 20-1 deal.
Again, subjective to the Commander....
Quote from: Eclipse on October 03, 2009, 06:38:17 AM
Command is generally the Commander, Deputy(s) and Safety.
Meh, retract, thatr's more of an ICS deal than a 20-1 deal.
Again, subjective to the Commander....
so your saying peronnel can be a command staff postion even though it is not listed in the reports under Member reports in e-services?
Quote from: messofficer on October 03, 2009, 06:43:06 AM
so your saying peronnel can be a command staff postion even though it is not listed in the reports under Member reports in e-services?
No, personnel is clearly a support function, but it really doesn't make much difference.
Bear in mind that 20-1 is a suggestion, not a prescription. Further, eServices has been playing catch-up with who falls where. I haven't looked lately, but I don't think they are perfectly aligned yet.
As of the regs today, the only required staff positions are CC, CS, AE, & Finance (if you have money to track). Everything else is based on whether the commander wants to fill that position, or just take care of any mandatory items and reporting himself.
I have no idea why Chaplains and Historians would be considered command staff, they certainly have no command authority, in fact CAP Chaplains are specifically barred from being commanders.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 03, 2009, 07:20:14 AM
Quote from: messofficer on October 03, 2009, 06:43:06 AM
so your saying peronnel can be a command staff postion even though it is not listed in the reports under Member reports in e-services?
As of the regs today, the only required staff positions are CC, CS, AE, & Finance (if you have money to track). Everything else is based on whether the commander wants to fill that position, or just take care of any mandatory items and reporting himself.
That is incorrect from the get-go. There are commanders and staff officers. Commanders are not staff officers, they are commanders. Staff officers support the commander. Commanders have a staff, they are not part of the staff. This is one of the reasons that CAP gets out of control - staff officers acting like they're commanders and telling people to do stuff, move aircraft, and firing folks. Staff officers only have the authority the commanders give them. "Command staff" is an ICS thing and has no analog in military or paramilitary organizations.
This "command staff" thing, in our context, is an oxymoron.
QuoteAs of the regs today, the only required staff positions are CC, CS, AE, & Finance (if you have money to track). Everything else is based on whether the commander wants to fill that position, or just take care of any mandatory items and reporting himself.
Actually, you are also required to have a public affairs officer, or at least have the commander officially assigned as the unit PAO, as well.
Quote from: RiverAux on October 03, 2009, 12:17:17 PM
QuoteAs of the regs today, the only required staff positions are CC, CS, AE, & Finance (if you have money to track). Everything else is based on whether the commander wants to fill that position, or just take care of any mandatory items and reporting himself.
Actually, you are also required to have a public affairs officer, or at least have the commander officially assigned as the unit PAO, as well.
Cite please.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 03, 2009, 01:46:07 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on October 03, 2009, 12:17:17 PM
QuoteAs of the regs today, the only required staff positions are CC, CS, AE, & Finance (if you have money to track). Everything else is based on whether the commander wants to fill that position, or just take care of any mandatory items and reporting himself.
Actually, you are also required to have a public affairs officer, or at least have the commander officially assigned as the unit PAO, as well.
Cite please.
QuoteCAPR 190-1, Paragraph 3
3. Assignment of the Public Affairs Officer (PAO).
a. Each unit commander shall appoint a qualified individual to be the PAO.
b. The PAO shall be appointed in accordance with current personnel procedures in CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status. The next higher headquarters shall also be notified of all PAO appointments.
c. In the absence of an assigned PAO, the unit commander is responsible for the duties of the PAO.
Quote from: CAP Producer on October 03, 2009, 01:49:59 PM
c. In the absence of an assigned PAO, the unit commander is responsible for the duties of the PAO.
Point accepted, however they are all like that - CC does what is not assigned to someone else, though I suppose this is another situation where there's supposed to be a box checked with a name.
In the Air Force, they'd call it a "command section." It includes commanders, deputy commanders and first sergeants. The functional address symbols match — CC, CD*, CF.
E-services adds safety officers, yada yada, into the command section... but they aren't. E-services isn't always aligned with regulation.
Also, a public affairs officer is a PA. Note there's no "O." We don't call communications officers COs, DCOs or DOKOs. Why does the "PAO" misnomer run rampant?
*CV for vice commander. Wouldn't we all love to be in charge of vice?
First Sergent would be CCF. IIRC Executive Officer is CCE. Please note these are functional address symbols, not duty titles.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 03, 2009, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: CAP Producer on October 03, 2009, 01:49:59 PM
c. In the absence of an assigned PAO, the unit commander is responsible for the duties of the PAO.
Point accepted, however they are all like that - CC does what is not assigned to someone else, though I suppose this is another situation where there's supposed to be a box checked with a name.
Except that your Wing WILL get dinged in a SAV or CI if you don't have the commander appointed in writing as the PAO if someone else is not in that position. Have seen this happen very recently. I think it is redundant myself, but am just telling you how NHQ is interpreting that reg.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 03, 2009, 04:12:43 PM
In the Air Force, they'd call it a "command section." It includes commanders, deputy commanders and first sergeants. The functional address symbols match — CC, CD*, CF.
E-services adds safety officers, yada yada, into the command section... but they aren't. E-services isn't always aligned with regulation.
Also, a public affairs officer is a PA. Note there's no "O." We don't call communications officers COs, DCOs or DOKOs. Why does the "PAO" misnomer run rampant?
*CV for vice commander. Wouldn't we all love to be in charge of vice?
Hey, I'm a CO but it has nothing to do with CAP or Comms.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJAlso, a public affairs officer is a PA. Note there's no "O." We don't call communications officers COs, DCOs or DOKOs. Why does the "PAO" misnomer run rampant?
PA is an office symbol. PAO is an abbreviation/initialism (NOT an acronym). Communications Officers frequently have their title shortened to CommO. I don't recall any others like that, right now.
YMMV.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 04, 2009, 03:28:18 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJAlso, a public affairs officer is a PA. Note there's no "O." We don't call communications officers COs, DCOs or DOKOs. Why does the "PAO" misnomer run rampant?
PA is an office symbol. PAO is an abbreviation/initialism (NOT an acronym). Communications Officers frequently have their title shortened to CommO. I don't recall any others like that, right now.
YMMV.
I think the "O" carries over from when the title was "information officer" and the functional address symbol was IO. When the "I" became "PA," well, you can see how it happened. It's another one of those folk traditions for which CAP is legendary.
MIKE: Those are the CAP functional address symbols for a cadet first sergeant and cadet executive officer. CCC and CCD are cadet commander and deputy commander. Basically a "C" in front of anything makes it a cadet position... assuming that functional address symbol chart is still anywhere in CAP regulations. Of course, the cadet symbols are nearly superfluous outside the cadet command section. But anyway....
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 04, 2009, 04:57:45 AM
MIKE: Those are the CAP functional address symbols for a cadet first sergeant and cadet executive officer. CCC and CCD are cadet commander and deputy commander. Basically a "C" in front of anything makes it a cadet position... assuming that functional address symbol chart is still anywhere in CAP regulations. Of course, the cadet symbols are nearly superfluous outside the cadet command section. But anyway....
Wrong. Go read an Air Force Directory.
The functional address symbols are listed in Attachments 5 and 6 of CAP R10-1. For years, I've heard the Deputy Commander Cadets called the DCC, but that's incorrect. I've also heard Aerospace Education Officers called AE Officers, but looking at the list, apparently that's incorrect too.
Quote from: LtCol057 on October 05, 2009, 12:26:18 AM
The functional address symbols are listed in Attachments 5 and 6 of CAP R10-1. For years, I've heard the Deputy Commander Cadets called the DCC, but that's incorrect. I've also heard Aerospace Education Officers called AE Officers, but looking at the list, apparently that's incorrect too.
And why not?
As suggested above, separate the office symbol from the title. There's nothing at all wrong with shortening the title to AE Officer, or even AEO, for use in conversation. This joins PAO and CommO in a list of common abbreviations.
YMMV.
I stand somewhat corrected. I've seen "CCF" used for Air Force first sergeants. But I also noticed that, according to AFMAN 33-326, there is some latitude in assigning functional address symbols — and with some guidance from AFI 33-101 among other sources, they're issued by the communications people, not the admin guys. So there might be little inconsistencies that make some CAP folks' heads asplode.
One other thing I noticed is that the techies are SCs, not ITs, unless I read that wrong.
LtCol057 noted there's no such thing as a DCC. It's CD, though in composite squadrons, you could just as easily use CDC and CDS... though, no, it's not in CAPR 10-1. (Hey, it's not like anyone's following CAPR 20-1, so make it whatever you want. Southeast Region's using A-staff designations — don't remember that organization in the regs!)
Also, a side note: AFMAN 33-326 is a great read if you really want to get that letterhead precise. CAPR 10-1 used to go into some of this sort of detail.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on October 05, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
I stand somewhat corrected. I've seen "CCF" used for Air Force first sergeants. But I also noticed that, according to AFMAN 33-326, there is some latitude in assigning functional address symbols — and with some guidance from AFI 33-101 among other sources, they're issued by the communications people, not the admin guys. So there might be little inconsistencies that make some CAP folks' heads asplode.
That's a half true statement. There is no longer an "admin" career field in the Air Force -- it has been replaced by the Information Management (3A0X1) field, which is owned by AF/A6 (the comm people). The information management (AFPD 33-3 and the 33-3xx series) pubs are mostly published by SAF/XC (AF Warfighter Integration and CIO office) because they are the strategic communicators (written, verbal and electronic) for the Air Force. So yes, you are correct -- the IM pubs are issued by comm people -- but that's because the comm people ARE the admin people.
Anyway, back on the subject of command staff...
Aside from the ICS environment that Bob already covered, my take on command staff is that command staff = people with command in their title: commanders, vice commanders and deputy commanders. Everything else supports the command staff as a matter of the squadron type:
With a composite squadron, there is the commander's support staff, which include the safety officer, chaplain/MLO, admin officer, and PA officer... and special staff officers (personnel, recruiting, legal, finance, medical, testing and historian). The remainder fall under the deputy commander for seniors. Now, I would love to know some day how NHQ came up with the conclusion of which positions fall under special staff and which positions fall under the deputy commander for seniors, but hey.
Then with the senior and cadet squadrons, all support staff positions fall under the deputy commander.
Confusing and obscure? Sure. Reminds me of the whole A-staff conversation I've had on several occasions with people like Maryland Wing. I think sometimes we'd be best served organizing the squadrons into S-staff, but I'm afraid too many heads would blow up like Buckeye was sayin'.
Quote from: McLarty on October 05, 2009, 03:47:15 PM
With a composite squadron, there is the commander's support staff, which include the safety officer, chaplain/MLO, admin officer, and PA officer... and special staff officers (personnel, recruiting, legal, finance, medical, testing and historian). The remainder fall under the deputy commander for seniors. Now, I would love to know some day how NHQ came up with the conclusion of which positions fall under special staff and which positions fall under the deputy commander for seniors, but hey.
In ways, it doesn't make much sense at all, other than to try to delineate two sides of the house. Safety falls under the commander, but logistics for the entire unit falls under the deputy commander for seniors? Seems to me you'd want positions common to the entire unit under a unified command, but then you're probably undermining the concept of adults vs. cadets.
Maybe the organizational thing to do is put 'em all under one commander and deputy commander, then separate cadets into a detachment with its own commander.
(scratching head)