See http://www.appeal-democrat.com/news/student-86911-airplane-downed.html
Summary: Group of kids standing around Yuba City. One thinks he sees a plane crash. Another one says, "It did, I just got called out by the Civil Air Patrol" and leaves. The 1st boy then calls 911. Cops investigate and arrest kid#2 for inciting the 1st one to make the false report. Cops say he was arrested not just because of the false report but because of the "significant resources" that were spent responding (4 cop cars and 2 fire trucks looking around for a half hour).
Though the story doesn't say the arrested one was a cadet, I think we can assume he was or he wouldn't have made a statement about being called out by them. But, this assumption is based on a media report, so take it for what it may be worth.
If he was a cadet, he shouldn't be for much longer...
If he was a cadet, I think there should be a Form 2B in his future.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 25, 2009, 02:18:02 AM
If he was a cadet, I think there should be a Form 2B in his future.
I wouldn't doubt it. I think the "So called" Cadet just said that to get attention from his friends, it's not a cool thing to joke about.
A Termination of Membership in my opinion is most likely the best option.
Quote from: Lunsford on September 25, 2009, 02:24:45 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 25, 2009, 02:18:02 AM
If he was a cadet, I think there should be a Form 2B in his future.
I wouldn't doubt it. I think the "So called" Cadet just said that to get attention from his friends, it's not a cool thing to joke about.
A Termination of Membership in my opinion is most likely the best option.
Although, a serious offense on behalf of the "assumed cadet". I do not believe a termination would be the correct option, however a extensive counsel session with his squadron commander and/or group and wing commander should be the course of action. 2B would be a severe consequence and do the exact opposite of what the CAP Cadet Program is trying to display and instill within youth.
Quote from: USADOD on September 25, 2009, 02:57:28 AM
Quote from: Lunsford on September 25, 2009, 02:24:45 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 25, 2009, 02:18:02 AM
If he was a cadet, I think there should be a Form 2B in his future.
I wouldn't doubt it. I think the "So called" Cadet just said that to get attention from his friends, it's not a cool thing to joke about.
A Termination of Membership in my opinion is most likely the best option.
Although, a serious offense on behalf of the "assumed cadet". I do not believe a termination would be the correct option, however a extensive counsel session with his squadron commander and/or group and wing commander should be the course of action. 2B would be a severe consequence and do the exact opposite of what the CAP Cadet Program is trying to display and instill within youth.
Although I understand were you are coming from, I think it is petty to say a plane is about to crash just so your friends think your cool. A plane crash is a serious thing if a Plane were to crash I would be on sight with the blink of the eye, I really don't care if my friends think it is cool. It is my job to look for that crash site and make sure the victims of that plane crash are ok, if they are not, then call 9-1-1 if they are not already on site.
Actually as a cadet you are not allowed to approach a crash site, also as a young sm, I can still remember being a "kid" and wanting my friends to like that I liked, and I said some things that were not true about cap to make it look neat. If you claim you have never done this than you lie. What this cadet did was unbelievable, but I do not think it is worth 2b over. This cadet needs a sit down with the squadron commander, mom and dad, and maybe the school resource/dare officer for a little "come to (enter your version of the messiah)" talk.
Can you post the actual article?
One thing that is interesting is how the kid involved claimed to have gotten called out by CAP. I am assuming that this incident occurred on a school day, which would lead me to believe that said "cadet" would not get called from school.
I would like to ask other SM's out there if you had an incident during school hours, would you call out any cadets to assist?
The day after Katrina, my group at the time was asked by fema and the air force to turn 2 connected 747 hangers at Boeing into shelters for evacuees. The squadron commanders called parents and asked if they would allow their child to miss school, most agreed and even some schools gave extra credit to some cadets if they wrote papers about their experience with disaster relief. Now, let's say for a plane crash, even a commercial liner, the affected area would be small and fire/ems/police/feds would be all over it in minutes, so no would not "call" out cadets for something like this.
2B?? And they complain about the "one mistake" Air Force...
Yes, this is not a trivial matter but there are a lot of factors that need to be considered. Age of cadet, what was really said between the kids, past performance history of the cadet, what the cadet thought would happen, the cadet's intention. Yes, it was a goof up but these are still kids.
Quote from: Short Field on September 25, 2009, 06:41:19 AM
2B?? And they complain about the "one mistake" Air Force...
Yes, this is not a trivial matter but there are a lot of factors that need to be considered. Age of cadet, what was really said between the kids, past performance history of the cadet, what the cadet thought would happen, the cadet's intention. Yes, it was a goof up but these are still kids.
Yes....but that would mean we would have to actually deal with problems and mentor our cadets. It is so much easier to just say "well he was a bad apple" and throw him to the wolves.
The youth, if indeed he is a CAP member, just needs to talk to a CAP CISM Team member. And that is done privately, definitely not with his squadron commander or parents.
This news story has me a little concerned. If either cadet truly believed there was an emergency, arresting them was way out of line.
So the kid might have been a bit overzealous. It happens. But there isn't much in the article to make the case the kid concretely knew there was no emergency, knew it was wrong to "incite" someone to call 911, and so forth.
Arresting the kid for it is pretty lame. A solid day of "counseling" from police down to parents - absolutely.
But the knowledge that 911 callers will be arrested if what you think was an emergency really wasnt is BAD. People could hesitate to call 911 in real emergency situations.
Punative or retalitory actions against people reporting safety concerns follows the same line. You deal with the report. Council in private.
cism...why? was he traumatized by the fake plane crash? i dont think that would help a 15 year old that lied to a fellow teen. He was just trying to make himself look cool in from of his peers. He needs a talking to, to let him know that cap is not to be used to impress friends
Quote from: NCRblues on September 25, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
cism...why? was he traumatized by the fake plane crash? i dont think that would help a 15 year old that lied to a fellow teen. He was just trying to make himself look cool in from of his peers. He needs a talking to, to let him know that cap is not to be used to impress friends
I wouldn't let a CISM talk to one of my kids.
Quote from: desertengineer1 on September 25, 2009, 12:11:20 PM
This news story has me a little concerned. If either cadet truly believed there was an emergency, arresting them was way out of line.
So the kid might have been a bit overzealous. It happens. But there isn't much in the article to make the case the kid concretely knew there was no emergency, knew it was wrong to "incite" someone to call 911, and so forth.
One of the comments after the article (which may or may not be accurate) indicated that a plane made an emergency landing in the area around the time this happened. If these kids saw or were aware of this, it supports the idea that one or both of them truly believed that there was an emergency.
Quote from: desertengineer1 on September 25, 2009, 12:11:20 PM
Arresting the kid for it is pretty lame. A solid day of "counseling" from police down to parents - absolutely.
But the knowledge that 911 callers will be arrested if what you think was an emergency really wasnt is BAD. People could hesitate to call 911 in real emergency situations.
Punative or retalitory actions against people reporting safety concerns follows the same line. You deal with the report. Council in private.
I'm more concerned that the second boy was arrested for "inciting" the actions of the first boy, who appears to have suffered no consequences for making the actual call. This is a really bad precedent that further undermines the concept of being responsible for one's own actions.
Sometimes smart kids do dumb things. A few kids standing around talking trash or competing to see who is the coolest shouldn't rise to a crime. So this kid was arrested, that doesn't mean a DA has to prosecute. One heck of a talking to about honesty and a healthy dose of parentally administered "house arrest" is in order, but an arrest? Kick him out of CAP (assuming he is a member)? Come on. I'd wager this kid will be really good from now on.
The only caveat, if the kid is a known trouble maker who just isn't getting the hint, then perhaps more aggressive action is called for.
A few thoughts:
Honestly, is this that much worse than the kids that start rumors about a fight after school or how we will all meet our doom in 2012?
Did the kid encourage anyone else to call 911? Did he reasonably CAUSE the report to be made? Or are we stretching it a little here?
Why call 911 if the accident was supposedly already reported and CAP was called out? What's the point?
Is it reasonable to hold kid #2 (the 15 yr old) accountable for kid #3 (the 911 caller) taking action that doesn't quite make sense under the circumstances?
Kid #1 (thought he saw it) started all this and there is no mention of his arrest.
Sounds to me like everyone involved needs to take a deep breath and chill out.
Agree with wuzafuzz
CAP talk forums have no place for outhouse lawyers and wannabe LE types or even wannabe CAP Sqdn CC's with"2B powers."
CAP cadets are still kids and some need more attention than others. Granted the LE community, school psychs, teachers, and God forbid, the parents ought to be involved to get this kid back on track
Gotta watch out for the CAP court of justice on this wesbsite ::) ::) ::) >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: flyguy06 on September 25, 2009, 05:54:14 AM
Can you post the actual article?
No, that would probably violate copywrite laws. Click on the link I provided in the first post.
At the very least, someone needs to sit this cadet down and have a long talk about the fact that CAP does not self-activate for ES response...our assistance is requested by appropriate authorities.
I can't help it:
"2B, or not 2B. That is the question" ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, This makes my head hurt reading this...
Kid was monumentally stupid, but I'm trying wrap my head around the call to 911 and the reasoning behind busting the kid. It appears to be a neverending cycle of overreaction by all parties here.
I'm not sure about the criminal charges, I think since Columbine the pendulum's swung a little too far the other way when it comes to juvenile crime. The kid didn't make the call nor did he tell the other to dial 911, so I'm trying to figure out the crime here.
That's the criminal side, the CAP side - Kid would be gone. Demotion, suspension for 90 days and a long, hard talk with the parents about voluntarily terminating the membership. I definitely wouldn't want to have to come back to the unit after pulling off a stupid stunt like this.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on September 26, 2009, 04:43:01 AM
the CAP side - Kid would be gone. Demotion, suspension for 90 days and a long, hard talk with the parents about voluntarily terminating the membership.
Why??? Especially why talk to the parents about voluntarily terminating? If you feel strongly enough that what the 15 year old did merits being gone from CAP, then stand up to what you are doing to the kid. What did the 15 year old kid really do? He made a off the cuff remark to another kid. The other kid is the one who thought he saw an airplane go down and who called 911.
As I read the article, there is no reason to believe that the boy (cadet?) intentionally filed a false police report, lied, or obstructed justice. He may have been overly trigger happy on calling 911, but if you had a person knock on your door, and tell you that your neighbor was being raped and murdered, would you disregard it because it was a second-hand complaint? I don't see a violation of law here, only a mistake in fact, and to meet the standard for a fake 911 call, you would have to demonstrate bad faith on the part of the caller. Of course, in California, children don't commit crimes, they are only "youths in danger of leading idle, dissolute, or immoral life" , not criminals. Save your jail space for the people who call 911 because they are out of chicken Mcnuggets at Mickey-D's! As far as a 2B, let me respectfully suggest that trying to 2B a kid for a 911 call is.......insane. Cadets can go to the MARB too, and you would be hard pressed to explain how his acting to preserve life (albeit in error) was a terminable offense.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on September 26, 2009, 05:49:41 AM
As I read the article, there is no reason to believe that the boy (cadet?) intentionally filed a false police report, lied, or obstructed justice. He may have been overly trigger happy on calling 911, but if you had a person knock on your door, and tell you that your neighbor was being raped and murdered, would you disregard it because it was a second-hand complaint? I don't see a violation of law here, only a mistake in fact, and to meet the standard for a fake 911 call, you would have to demonstrate bad faith on the part of the caller. Of course, in California, children don't commit crimes, they are only "youths in danger of leading idle, dissolute, or immoral life" , not criminals. Save your jail space for the people who call 911 because they are out of chicken Mcnuggets at Mickey-D's! As far as a 2B, let me respectfully suggest that trying to 2B a kid for a 911 call is.......insane. Cadets can go to the MARB too, and you would be hard pressed to explain how his acting to preserve life (albeit in error) was a terminable offense.
Major Lord
Especially since the Cadet in question
DID NOT CALL 911 his friend did
How do we know the cadet in question did not get called?
Quote from: arajca on September 26, 2009, 02:42:13 PM
How do we know the cadet in question did not get called?
Because according to the article he said he got a call immediately after they thought they saw an aircraft go down. The call out process doesn't work that fast.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 26, 2009, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 26, 2009, 02:42:13 PM
How do we know the cadet in question did not get called?
Because according to the article he said he got a call immediately after they thought they saw an aircraft go down. The call out process doesn't work that fast.
And Northern and Central CAWG hasn't been alerted since 09/16
At worst this cadet lied to his friends, which obviously is a core value problem.
But, he could not reasonably have expected his friend to call 911 and in fact by saying that CAP had been called out could have reasonably expected his friends to realize that the authorities had already been notified and therefore there would not be a need to call 911. So arresting him was a huge over-reaction by the police.
But, CAP should not base its response on a mistake by another agency and I wouldn't suggest going beyond a strong talking to with this cadet.
2B? No way. If we kicked out every cadet who lied to his friends about something, we wouldn't have any left.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 25, 2009, 01:04:47 AM
See http://www.appeal-democrat.com/news/student-86911-airplane-downed.html
Summary: Group of kids standing around Yuba City. One thinks he sees a plane crash. Another one says, "It did, I just got called out by the Civil Air Patrol" and leaves. The 1st boy then calls 911. Cops investigate and arrest kid#2 for inciting the 1st one to make the false report.
Frankly that is the strangest arrest I've ever head in my life ??? ::) The logic of the arrest escapes me because if kid #2 said (when the PD was called) that CAP had already been alerted than the dispatcher should have known something was astray!!!!
I'm not a lawyer but you do have to be careful when this comes before a judge, especially if it will change "case law". If a kid is dumb (as in this case) and calls 911 for whatever reason and the other kids "incited" him that is a real stretch in my mind.
RM
Would the cadet's future in CAP depend on if there is a conviction or not?
I don't know - I'm asking.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 26, 2009, 07:08:14 PM
Would the cadet's future in CAP depend on if there is a conviction or not?
I don't know - I'm asking.
Not really, for two reasons:
1. Based on the article, the only possible offense for the troop is a prosecution for some sort of "false report of an emergency" which in California is a misdemeanor. Misdemeanor convictions are not disqualifying for CAP membership. And as others have pointed out, even that charge is a huge stretch. This will never even get to the DA's office for a decision, let alone to court.
2. As a practical matter in California, it is impossible to CAP (or any outsider for that matter) to have access to the necessary juvenile court records to show whether there was some sort of adjudication. A 15 year old cadet could be "convicted" of child molest or even murder and CAP would have no way to verify the fact of the adjudication.
Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer (in CAWG)
HAHA....I know a Former Cadet that got 2b'd becouse using juvi records obtained illegally by a CAP member/COP.....
Quote from: Ned on September 26, 2009, 08:50:40 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 26, 2009, 07:08:14 PM
Would the cadet's future in CAP depend on if there is a conviction or not?
I don't know - I'm asking.
Not really, for two reasons:
1. Based on the article, the only possible offense for the troop is a prosecution for some sort of "false report of an emergency" which in California is a misdemeanor. Misdemeanor convictions are not disqualifying for CAP membership. And as others have pointed out, even that charge is a huge stretch. This will never even get to the DA's office for a decision, let alone to court.
2. As a practical matter in California, it is impossible to CAP (or any outsider for that matter) to have access to the necessary juvenile court records to show whether there was some sort of adjudication. A 15 year old cadet could be "convicted" of child molest or even murder and CAP would have no way to verify the fact of the adjudication.
Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer (in CAWG)
I think this cadet should only take minor punishment because it could have been something else but mistaken for an airplane he had the right intentions supposedly. What if it was an actual plane and he had not told then some people could have been injured or even killed. :)
Quote from: 1st Lt Daniel Sauerwein on September 25, 2009, 06:08:14 AM
One thing that is interesting is how the kid involved claimed to have gotten called out by CAP. I am assuming that this incident occurred on a school day, which would lead me to believe that said "cadet" would not get called from school.
Eh, not that weird. As an 18 high school cadet, I was "on call" for SAR missions. Say what you want about cadets getting to go on missions or whatnot, but as far as I've read, there isn't anything in the regs against schoolday missions, and if you have a real mission, the cadets being out of school for a day is likely not going to measure up to the good they can do in the field.
What confused me is how the situation actually went down...
Kid1: Hey, did a plane just crash over there?
Kid2: Yeah, the CAP satellites just saw it and contacted me over my cochlear implant.
Kid1: Oh... alright... uh...
Should Kid2 get punished? Yeah, regardless of whether or not he broke the law, he did try to use his membership in CAP for all the wrong reasons. Having cadets use their uniform to act as super-secret SAR agents isn't exactly jiving for what we're aiming for when we grant the cadet the responsibility for wearing that uniform.
A 2b? Eh... I'm not sure about that.
1) It cost the government a lot of money and annoyance, but nobody ended up getting hurt.
2) While the kid should have known better, it is HIGHLY unlikely he knew what the consequences of his actions were going to be, meaning that this is a CORRECTABLE problem.
Whenever there is a problem that can be corrected, I have a hard time justifying to myself why we should give them the axe. Generally, I reserve that for cadets who do something clearly, insanely wrong by either CAP regulations or the law, AND the cadet knew full and well approximately what the consequences were for those actions. Those types of people knew what they were doing, knew the effect it would have, and did it anyway, making what they did intentional and clearly not a simple correctable mistake.
This kid didn't really do either of those things, and while the consequences for what he did were pretty bad, I would bet my membership that, based only on the information provided in this news article, that he wouldn't do that again.
YMMV