Does anyone use a driver training program for new drivers of our 12 (formerly 15) passenger vans? I've never really felt comfortable with just handing someone the keys and telling them to be careful. In the fire service, we have training requirements to be met before someone can even drive an agency pick up truck.
I've found quite a bit of information on-line, from universities and various branches of the armed forces, regarding the handling characteristics of these vehicles. I'm thinking of putting something together, to include CAP regulations and the proper way to perform vehicle inspections and fill out paperwork.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 30, 2009, 12:36:15 PM
Does anyone use a driver training program for new drivers of our 12 (formerly 15) passenger vans? I've never really felt comfortable with just handing someone the keys and telling them to be careful. In the fire service, we have training requirements to be met before someone can even drive an agency pick up truck.
I've found quite a bit of information on-line, from universities and various branches of the armed forces, regarding the handling characteristics of these vehicles. I'm thinking of putting something together, to include CAP regulations and the proper way to perform vehicle inspections and fill out paperwork.
Any thoughts?
I've been thinking about volunteering to be a driver, BUT I'm going to check with my insurance carrier first because CAP is probably one of the only non profit organization in the nation that makes its' unpaid volunteers responsible for paying for damages to vehicles (e.g. backing incidents, turning too quick with van & slicing tire on curb or scratching side of van, etc, etc. So that is a big motivation to get some training and be VERY VERY vigilant when driving that vehicle!!!!
I do agree that we should have a good program so that there's a comfort level with the drivers. Of course the most dangerous aspects is going too fast at freeway/turnpike entrances to highway & sudden "avoidance" movements while going over 35 MPH that could flip over the van. Other challenges include parking between vehicles & backing up into a parking slot.
I think the regulation kind of mentions having experienced drivers drive these vans, but it doesn't necessary mean driving a car gives one the complete experience/training necessary.
The key point is that any member that decides to drive this type of vehicle needs to be sure that they are complete knowledgeable about the hazards & how to drive it properly and ensure that when backing there's another member guiding the vehicle from behind, etc.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on August 30, 2009, 01:56:00 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 30, 2009, 12:36:15 PM
Does anyone use a driver training program for new drivers of our 12 (formerly 15) passenger vans? I've never really felt comfortable with just handing someone the keys and telling them to be careful. In the fire service, we have training requirements to be met before someone can even drive an agency pick up truck.
I've found quite a bit of information on-line, from universities and various branches of the armed forces, regarding the handling characteristics of these vehicles. I'm thinking of putting something together, to include CAP regulations and the proper way to perform vehicle inspections and fill out paperwork.
Any thoughts?
I've been thinking about volunteering to be a driver, BUT I'm going to check with my insurance carrier first because CAP is probably one of the only non profit organization in the nation that makes its' unpaid volunteers responsible for paying for damages to vehicles (e.g. backing incidents, turning too quick with van & slicing tire on curb or scratching side of van, etc, etc. So that is a big motivation to get some training and be VERY VERY vigilant when driving that vehicle!!!!
I do agree that we should have a good program so that there's a comfort level with the drivers. Of course the most dangerous aspects is going too fast at freeway/turnpike entrances to highway & sudden "avoidance" movements while going over 35 MPH that could flip over the van. Other challenges include parking between vehicles & backing up into a parking slot.
I think the regulation kind of mentions having experienced drivers drive these vans, but it doesn't necessary mean driving a car gives one the complete experience/training necessary.
The key point is that any member that decides to drive this type of vehicle needs to be sure that they are complete knowledgeable about the hazards & how to drive it properly and ensure that when backing there's another member guiding the vehicle from behind, etc.
RM
I didn't realize that we are responsible for damages to CAP vechicles. I think this is wrong.
Well, although the criteria are kind of vague, as long as you're not doing things that are truly stupid, you should be fine.
I am a little surprised that we haven't had yet another mandatory training course to cover this issue.
Well... we bother with a CAP license... and we do require an inspection and documentation when the vans are driven...
Right now it appears that we: (formally, some wings/squadrons may do more)
-- Check driving record
-- Issue license if record is good enough...
(anyone know what "good enough" happens to be?)
Granted smart squadrons are probably implementing their own system where they take members out and show them the ropes so to speak... we can probably figure most don't...
Course could cover:
- Responsibilities
- Liabilities
- Insurance issues
- Forms/documentation
--- I've seen so many documentation mistakes
-----(from members of a few wings)
- Best practices
- "Common sense"
-The inspection
- Etc, etc etc...
- I would think a course would be good...
-- I would see the course as a "culture of safety" builder not as a check off... I hope others would too...
Make the license real, something earned & not given, and it will probably be respected more.
So who has the time to put together a grass roots course?
- I don't have the time to put it together, but my squadron could field test it...
After going thru an ATV course with a major natural resource agency and the previous life in the RM and wildfire service....we all had to go through a drivers course, written or online course given by AAA or others.
Where's CAP on this one?? With all the emphasis on towing aircraft in out of the hangar and the tow ring and tow hook issues (which, by the way are normal replacement items for FBO's and REAL flight schools)
It is about time CAP spends time on this issue. What's good for the pilots is good for the ground teams and squadrons using the equipment. Sure, sure, that checklist covers all doesn't it??
How about a CAP Roadeo like we HAD to do for wildland fire. I still have to qual on 1 ton and above equipment that remotely hauls water...
CAP, in its infinite wisdom, out to be on top of this one.........20 yrs ago!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Hmmm...Maybe if we have more constructive conversations like this one... and things get accomplished as a result... NHQ wont insist on... well... things like the Safety related changes that will be reviewed in the next couple of days....
-- Changes discussed in other threads
So, anyone up to the "challenge" of putting such a course together?
- Anyone already do it?
Any other commanders willing to implement the course as a requirement in their Squadron/Group/Wing/Region to get/keep a CAP License?
That training also better include
the basic of jumping or recharging a vehicle safely
Recovery to include towing with ACTUAL towstraps or chains
Driving in real mud and related
What else? How about checking an AF or Army operators manual....NOT a watered down CAP checklist....
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Quote from: heliodoc on August 31, 2009, 02:34:22 AM
That training also better include
the basic of jumping or recharging a vehicle safely
Recovery to include towing with ACTUAL towstraps or chains
Driving in real mud and related
What else? How about checking an AF or Army operators manual....NOT a watered down CAP checklist....
I've been a volunter firefighter for years. Our drivers training doesn't include jumping batteries, recharging, or towing.
AF or Army operators manual? For what? Last I checked, I'm not in the Army (not since '99) or the AF. No need for their manuals. Not to mention we already have a checklist, it's called the form 73.
I used to be a CDL-B driver. I drove a 48 foot, dual rear axle tanker filled with hazmat and had airbrakes. It was the vehicle I learned to drive a standard in too, 5 speed with a two speed rear axle.
Boy was that fun to drive. But you know what. The extent of the "training" that I had was self taught. I went to the DMV, they gave me a book. I studied the book, set up an appointment for a road test and took the exam.
The written exam was 50 questions for the driving rules. 10 questions each for the tanker, hazmat and air brake endorsements. The driving test included no driving instruction, only a practical vehicle inspection, parking test and then a live road test.
It took me a whopping 2 days to get that endorsement. Driving the CAP van is like "normal people" driving a Honda Fit.
Our state doesn't even require that our CDL-A drivers have "formal driving training" to get their license, just an evaluation before the endorsement.
With our drivers in CAP (since I'm our unit's transportation officer), we have a "driving exam" that is standard in our wing before you can recommend someone for their license. It has a checklist that includes items like "can back up into a parking space" and "can merge onto highway safely."
We take the whole package, application, exam results, and driving record and send them along.
My main question for a suggestion like this is: Have we had a lot of problems with inexperienced drivers? If not, why would we need yet another bureaucratic obstacle to our people doing their jobs?
Yeah, there is a bit of difference in driving a van over driving a car, but if the states don't differentiate the licensing requirements, why isn't that good enough for us?
It is probably worth reviewing the vehicle-related accident reports in CAP to see if there are any trends that could be addressed with a course.
I used these in the Army, and now for the Squadron. Good slide show describing the "why" behind van safety, and the specifics of why vans get broken.
Great course, has a test, provides answers and has a certificate to print out!
15 Passenger Driver Improvement Course
http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety.ppt (http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety.ppt)
http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety%20-%20Answer%20Key.pdf (http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety%20-%20Answer%20Key.pdf)
http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety%20-%20Test.doc
(http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/VanSafety%20-%20Test.doc)
http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/CERTIFICATE%20OF%20COMPLETION.doc (http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/15PassVan/CERTIFICATE%20OF%20COMPLETION.doc)
Quote from: brasda91 on September 01, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Do they have "X" amount of time behind a CAP Van?
- What I'm trying to ask... are you letting them behind the wheel transporting people/cargo without a license(monitored I presume)... to see if thy are capable of handling the license?
Quote from: Spike on September 01, 2009, 02:08:57 PM
I used these in the Army, and now for the Squadron. Good slide show describing the "why" behind van safety, and the specifics of why vans get broken.
That's some good stuff right there! Maybe CAP should institute something like this as a requirement to get a CAP DL; might cut down on the number of accidents and parking rash that turn up in the Sentinel.
Or would that be too proactive?
I think having a proactive system would be great; I have seen way to many near accidents do to the fact that the van driver did not know how to handle the van. This would also weed out the bad drivers. I think it would be interesting to know how many accidents are caused by lack of knowledge and how many by lack of knowledge.
Quote from: notaNCO forever on September 01, 2009, 07:41:47 PM
I think having a proactive system would be great; I have seen way to many near accidents do to the fact that the van driver did not know how to handle the van. This would also weed out the bad drivers. I think it would be interesting to know how many accidents are caused by lack of knowledge and how many by lack of knowledge.
Did you perhaps mean one of those to say skill(s)?
I meant lack of knowledge and just being an unsafe driver, must have forgotten to proof read.
By unsafe drivers I mean people who choose to make unsafe driving choices like speeding and not paying attention. By lack of knowledge I'm referring to people who are used to driving their commuter car and not big vans.
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 01, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 01, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Do they have "X" amount of time behind a CAP Van?
- What I'm trying to ask... are you letting them behind the wheel transporting people/cargo without a license(monitored I presume)... to see if thy are capable of handling the license?
No, I haven't implemented anything. I wouldn't/don't allow anyone to drive the van until they have been licensed.
What I would do would be, once the license for the individual is sent to me, I would take that member out in the van for "X" amount of time and let him/her put in some time. Ask them to parallel park, back into parking spaces and anything else I can think of. It would be a standardized course so that all new drivers in the squadron would do the same thing. All of this would be done without anyone but myself or another authorized staff member in the van. Heck you could even make it a "step" program. So many hours with an instructor, progressing to a fully loaded van and then giving them their license.
Thanks for the clarification....
Quote from: brasda91 on September 02, 2009, 12:42:18 AM
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 01, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 01, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Do they have "X" amount of time behind a CAP Van?
- What I'm trying to ask... are you letting them behind the wheel transporting people/cargo without a license(monitored I presume)... to see if thy are capable of handling the license?
No, I haven't implemented anything. I wouldn't/don't allow anyone to drive the van until they have been licensed.
What I would do would be, once the license for the individual is sent to me, I would take that member out in the van for "X" amount of time and let him/her put in some time. Ask them to parallel park, back into parking spaces and anything else I can think of. It would be a standardized course so that all new drivers in the squadron would do the same thing. All of this would be done without anyone but myself or another authorized staff member in the van. Heck you could even make it a "step" program. So many hours with an instructor, progressing to a fully loaded van and then giving them their license.
What are you going to do when they decide having a CAP drivers license isn't worth the hassel (especially if you are the only squadron requiring it) and you have no one to drive the van? In my area, just getting a copy of their driving record so they can apply for the license costs them $10 and a three hour trip to the DMV...
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 02, 2009, 11:27:12 AM
What are you going to do when they decide having a CAP drivers license isn't worth the hassel (especially if you are the only squadron requiring it) and you have no one to drive the van? In my area, just getting a copy of their driving record so they can apply for the license costs them $10 and a three hour trip to the DMV...
Ouch... Not an issue here... Our wing either gets them for free or pays for them for ND Records. Those with records from other states I reimbursed $3 or $5...
Most records should be available by request online at the state DMV website... This is even available in ND... and we still use outhouses and horses ;)
--Added---In our squadron... we have more licensed members then actual willing drivers... Those that do the driving now would probably be supportive of a standard... Those coming in wont know different and well... too bad?
- Like everything... it would be a "pilot program"... we will see how it works out... modify... continue... etc...
There were lots of ideas of things that should be covered... Don't know how practical all of them were... applicable maybe... practical to teach on a regular basis within the confines of CAP... not sure...
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 02, 2009, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 02, 2009, 12:42:18 AM
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 01, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 01, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Do they have "X" amount of time behind a CAP Van?
- What I'm trying to ask... are you letting them behind the wheel transporting people/cargo without a license(monitored I presume)... to see if thy are capable of handling the license?
No, I haven't implemented anything. I wouldn't/don't allow anyone to drive the van until they have been licensed.
What I would do would be, once the license for the individual is sent to me, I would take that member out in the van for "X" amount of time and let him/her put in some time. Ask them to parallel park, back into parking spaces and anything else I can think of. It would be a standardized course so that all new drivers in the squadron would do the same thing. All of this would be done without anyone but myself or another authorized staff member in the van. Heck you could even make it a "step" program. So many hours with an instructor, progressing to a fully loaded van and then giving them their license.
What are you going to do when they decide having a CAP drivers license isn't worth the hassel (especially if you are the only squadron requiring it) and you have no one to drive the van? In my area, just getting a copy of their driving record so they can apply for the license costs them $10 and a three hour trip to the DMV...
Then I don't need the new member. I need quality members, not quantity. We have training in other areas before we send the new members off unassisted (GTL). Why not incorporate some form of drivers training to help protect the youth of our nation that may be in the van? If someone balks at that, do you really want them behind the wheel? What other training are they going to try and get out of? The whole purpose behind training is so that you understand the task and can perform it safely on your own.
What's the point? What problem is being solved? The training is supposed to teach you how to drive the van? Who will conduct the training? What will their qualifications be?
States conduct drivers exams and issue licenses. There is nothing special about our vans - they are not commecial vehicles. Safety officers conduct briefs. Aside from that, if you're licensed, you're good to go.
How about we stick to real issues. This is not one of them.
During her opening remarks, Gen Courter was just talking about making CAP the best place to volunteer and one of the plans was for streamlining regs etc.
If being 21 or over, and having a valid DL are the requirements set by NHQ & your Wing; then placing more hurdles, like your own version of a driver's'ed program, in front of the new members is not something we should be doing at the squadron level.
I posted a link to some great visual aids about vans, and why they roll over. That is really all that is needed. Tell the prospective van driver, "look at these slides, and see why vans get in crashes.....then have a safe trip"
This has been an interesting discussion; thank you all for your opinions. I had been thinking that despite haven driven CAP vehicles at squadron, wing and region level activities, I never once had to demonstrate competency.
After reading of vehicle incidents in the Sentinel, and stumbling across Internet articles on van crashes, it occurred to me that we may be missing an important component of our safety program. We spend lots of time and energy checking off boxes for no apparent reason, but we're willing to send a van full of cadets down the road with a driver who might not know the first thing about the vehicle that he's driving.
The fact that a member has a driver's license and a clean history doesn't necessarily mean that he is aware of how easy our vans can roll over. Google van safety and it's pretty obvious that this might not be true. Read through back issues of the Sentinel and it appears that some of our van operators don't know how to use mirrors and maneuver the vehicles. I say appears because details are few, but inferences can be made.
I respect the view of those who say that this isn't a squadron issue. However, I think that it's important that drivers know the handling characteristics and mechanical components of the vehicles they will actually be driving, not a generic vehicle type.
Moving forward, I'm going to work on a basic program for my squadron. I plan to incorporate material and ideas presented in this forum.
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 02, 2009, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 02, 2009, 12:42:18 AM
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 01, 2009, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: brasda91 on September 01, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I've thought about requiring my senior members to have "X" amount of hours behind the wheel before I give them their license. I don't think it's right or safe to simply say "OK, here's your license. Take them to ____". Some of them may never have driven anything as big as our vans.
Do they have "X" amount of time behind a CAP Van?
- What I'm trying to ask... are you letting them behind the wheel transporting people/cargo without a license(monitored I presume)... to see if thy are capable of handling the license?
No, I haven't implemented anything. I wouldn't/don't allow anyone to drive the van until they have been licensed.
What I would do would be, once the license for the individual is sent to me, I would take that member out in the van for "X" amount of time and let him/her put in some time. Ask them to parallel park, back into parking spaces and anything else I can think of. It would be a standardized course so that all new drivers in the squadron would do the same thing. All of this would be done without anyone but myself or another authorized staff member in the van. Heck you could even make it a "step" program. So many hours with an instructor, progressing to a fully loaded van and then giving them their license.
What are you going to do when they decide having a CAP drivers license isn't worth the hassel (especially if you are the only squadron requiring it) and you have no one to drive the van? In my area, just getting a copy of their driving record so they can apply for the license costs them $10 and a three hour trip to the DMV...
In California you can go online and have DMV send you a report of your driving record.
Quote from: EMT-83 on September 04, 2009, 02:20:47 AM
Moving forward, I'm going to work on a basic program for my squadron. I plan to incorporate material and ideas presented in this forum.
When you have version 1 of your program... I hope you share the plan/outline/etc...