I'm curious to what everyone has to say about this. Pulled it right off the meeting agenda for National Boards coming up in Sept. As I read this, this was tabled from 2001. Do I understand CAP to be voting on if they want to go to the AF and request the additional Stars? Not trying to start a huge debate but I'm curious to what the members think/know about this.
National Commander- Lieutenant General
National Vice Commander- Major General
National Chief of Staff- Brigadier General
National Legal Officer- Brigadier General
National Finance Officer- Brigadier General
National Controller- Brigadier General
Eight CAP region commanders Brigadier General
There's discussion on another thread that I'm too lazy to look up. IMHO, and that of others, it will go down in flames. There's no problem that needs that fix.
YMMV.
ahhh i didnt see it. Just curious to what the membership thinks of this? I personally think its a bad Idea. Im not to impressed with the direction CAP is going these days. How can having more Stars help us.
I think it is silly.
Of all the things that need to be done....this shouldn't even be on the list.
:redx:
I can't garantee what will happen but, consider this agenda item dead. ;D
Quote from: D2SK on August 25, 2009, 09:16:39 PM
I think it is silly.
Of all the things that need to be done....this shouldn't even be on the list.
Agreed.
This initiative is DOA as it should be. Our leadership should be much more concerned with the shrinking membership and mission loss instead of padding their shoulders with stars!
membership is shrinking because people arent getting what they thought CAP was when they joined?
Most guys on here dont care about rank anyway. But since the question was thrown out there I think each Wing Commander should be a Brig Gen. that way they can better sit down and talk with their respective state Adjutants General.
Commander should be a Brig Gen as well. I dontthink CAP should go above two stars though
Lets all just go to polo shirts.... Wouldnt that be easy? Cheap to. Plus that would cut down on National changing up the uniforms on us every 6 months.
Snowballs chance in hell... Don't see this going over well at all with "the approving authority", and it really is in poor taste given recent events. It still seems like CAP just got authorization for major general.
Frankly, thats too many general officers... CAP has too many colonels as it is, but making them brigadier generals just makes it worse. It'd be like the CGAux with all the 1,2 and 3 star commodores walking around.
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:30:59 PM
Lets all just go to polo shirts.... Wouldnt that be easy? Cheap to. Plus that would cut down on National changing up the uniforms on us every 6 months.
I would definanly quit CAP if we did that.
I just dont see how it would help CAP. We need National to be working on making CAP more user friendly, putting more training online, cutting down on paperwork. It seems the last few years its how we look to others and not how we do out job. Id also like to see them focus on CAPs internal customers... The Members.
Seeing as how CAP-USAF non-concurred with the proposal it is dead whether or not the NB approves it since the AF has final authority in this area.
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:35:17 PM
I just dont see how it would help CAP. We need National to be working on making CAP more user friendly, putting more training online, cutting down on paperwork. It seems the last few years its how we look to others and not how we do out job. Id also like to see them focus on CAPs internal customers... The Members.
And how are these ideas mutually exclusive?
Its an interesting mentality that asserts human beings, especially committees, are only capable of addressing a single issue at any given time. Its also a way to deflect a discussion from the real message and interject unrelated minutia.
I don't think adding stars to the membership lists means much either way, I'd frankly be in favor of measures which would raise the bar on anything above Captain and suppress the grade structure, perhaps even to the point of making Majors and Lt. Col. positional and temporary so that as people get older and start to be less active, they would collect at Captain instead of Lt. Col. Those that stick around
to a real retirement could be reinstated at their highest grade as part of the exit paperwork.
But just because this is on the table doesn't mean other work isn't getting done.
Perhaps if we could just close background noise questions like these quickly and efficiently, there would be more time for other discussions. Many of the questions being considered this round, and other recent meetings, have been on the table, in one form or another, for years. Many times instead of being voted down the proposals are rescinded and then they pop up next meeting.
Thats not a bad Idea... Maybe something along the lines of Group commanders LTC, Unit Commanders Maj. The rest of the membership Captains or below...
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:54:29 PM
Thats not a bad Idea... Maybe something along the lines of Group commanders LTC, Unit Commanders Maj. The rest of the membership Captains or below...
That gets rid of squadron members having higher grade than the CC, so I think that is a good idea.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 25, 2009, 09:34:20 PM
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:30:59 PM
Lets all just go to polo shirts.... Wouldnt that be easy? Cheap to. Plus that would cut down on National changing up the uniforms on us every 6 months.
I would definanly quit CAP if we did that.
Yes, we know.
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:54:29 PM
Thats not a bad Idea... Maybe something along the lines of Group commanders LTC, Unit Commanders Maj. The rest of the membership Captains or below...
In my alter ego I'm a butter bar as a staff officer at the unit level. To change them out for silver I would have to be (or have been) the "deputy commander" or the "commander" for railroad tracks... or a staff officer at the "group" level and so on.
But like I said we still have "regionish commanders" who are one stars, some 2 star billets and a "national commander" who is a 3 star.IMO, your average CAP squadron is a captain billet or less for the commander. 1st lieutenant or less for the deputy(s)... both flights and groups should be mandatory and get wings off of state boundaries. Some "wings" today could conceivably be groups commanded by a Maj or Lt Col.
Every time they want to put more stars on shoulders at NHQ I'm reminded of the Harwell debacle and my head starts to hurt.
QuoteSome "wings" today could conceivably be groups commanded by a Maj or Lt Col.
Most wings were commanded by Majors and Lt. Cols. during WWII when membership was 5x what it is today. Heck, there was even a very short period where a Captain commanded the Kentucky Wing (Capt. Howard B. Brown, Jr., June 1-23, 1943).
Well if they want to be ridiculous, they might as well go all-out:
National CC - General
Region CCs - Lt Gen
Wing Commanders - Maj Gen
Group Commanders - Brig Gen
Squadron Commanders - Colonel
Wooooo! Generals for everybody! >:D :P
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:54:29 PM
Thats not a bad Idea... Maybe something along the lines of Group commanders LTC, Unit Commanders Maj. The rest of the membership Captains or below...
The more we interact with everyone else, the more I think that we need to go to positional ranks:
Squadron = Captain
Group = Major
IC's (while performing IC duties), Wing/Region SE or IG = LtCol
Deputies, one grade lower and no "special rank" for staff weenies
Since (as has been mentioned on this board many times), CAP rank is a way of "keeping score" on your progression through professional development we could expand the flight officer structure
Level One - Flight Officer - No insignia, plain grey epaulets on uniforms
Level Two - Technical Flight Officer - current FO insignia
Level Three - Senior Flight Officer - current TFO insignia
Level Four - Master Flight Officer - current SFO insignia
Level Five - Chief Flight Officer - current 2ndLt insignia
All insignia is already approved / made.
National auto promotes you when your award is processed.
No provisions for former ranks (commissioned or otherwise) or "mission related" skills.
Leave the position or go on an activity outside your home wing and revert to the appropriate FO grade.
Yep, it's a pipe dream - but you have to admit I be smoking some fine stuff.
Frankly, I see this agenda item as a non-issue. It was tabled from a previous NB...which meant that at sometime it needed to be revisited. Hence the inclusion in this year's agenda for action to be taken. IMHO the majority of those currently serving on the are not interested in seeing this agenda item approved. End of story.
As far as rank is concerned....the silver oak leaf on my epaulet sleeve and $3.55 will get me a Vente Latte everytime at the local Starbucks.
Well, it appears that the CG Aux way of doing things has some supporters on here. I am not a big fan of the CG aux way of using positional ranks, there is a much simpler solution.
Make the grade of Major or above much harder to achieve and require officers to screen for those ranks at the Wing or Region level and require Air Force PME courses to promote. For instance:
Major: current time in grade plus be selected for a group or Wing staff position or assistant and have completed the USAF Squadron Officer School
Lt. Col: time in grade plus be selected to serve as a group commander or Wing deputy commander or selected to serve as a senior region staff officer. plus completion of the USAF Air Command and Staff College.
Air Force PME is not waiver able except for those members who have either completed the course while serving as an active duty military officer or as a senior military NCO and have completed the appropriate senior NCO academy courses. (E-8 or E-9)
No need to have people revert back to their old grade when they leave those positions, you simply reassign them administratively to a wing reserve squadron where the wing commander or former wing commander is the commander. Sort of like a legislative squadron.
Units are commanded by Captains or above as needed. Commanders need to be screened first. to be selected for captain you should have to have your promotion package approved by a group or wing level promotion board that meets a minimum of three times each year or more as needed.
Wing or Region level promotion boards should meet once per year but no more than twice per year. This way, most members will top out at Captain if selected, otherwise they will stay 1st Lt. If you want to promote higher then Captain you need to earn those promotions with real education and job positions. No more 1st Lt being the region safety officer or Wing IG, In cases of extreme need they can fill in until another qualified candidate is selected. Easy right?
How about the board decides to end this dream once and for all, instead to be replaced with a proposal to go back to the AF (after a decade and a half!) and ask for our blue rank slides back!
Seriously, we have been punished long enough over stupidity that happened before many members were even members!
I along with a few others here know the individual(s) responsible for the maroon now gray epaulet slides. They have since left the program. Time to recover from their stupidity.
Major and Lt. Col. is already "screened" at the Wing and Region Level, respectively.
The flaw in the reasoning above is that you can't force people to participate in a holding or legislative squadron, and doing so would result in most of your higher-speed, involved members becoming non-operational. Nice reward for a job well done.
The biggest issue with using the military grade model in CAP, is that in a volunteer organization "up and out" / "up or out" is not workable and self-defeating. When you can't forcibly assign people to drudge work, and you can't afford loss of experienced members, you can't be pushing people out the door just because they did well and attained a high grade and a lot of qualifications. If they decide they want to go back to a unit, etc., and help out, TA-DA! We say "thank you, thank you" and welcome them back.
It also doesn't account for term limits, which many states and Regions are now pushing - I'm not going to be inclined to reach for the top if after 3-4 years I wind up being marginalized in a legislative squadron.
Unless we change the current paradigm and buy the attrition that will come with it, changes like these aren't workable.
Instead of flushing our rank system down the toilet and coming up with something that no one will recognize, why don't we actually make our ranks worth obtaining?
Or are we just so stuck on mediocrity that we should trade our military rank insignia for something worthless? Then again maybe people would rather have a case of haves and have-nots?
Or maybe it's just a case of people stuck on another organization, that for whatever reason want CAP to be just like that one. What's wrong with being Civil Air Patrol? It would be nice if the folks wanting to turn CAP into something else would actually show the same dedication to making this one better.
QuoteWell, it appears that the CG Aux way of doing things has some supporters on here. I am not a big fan of the CG aux way of using positional ranks, there is a much simpler solution.
While I've been accused of trying to CG Auxify the CAP, I'm not in favor of using positional ranks in CAP based on squadron/group/wing staff or leadership positions. If I were to start over it would be with a system based on ES qualifications - see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.0 for discussion.
I would not seriously take this as an attempt to "promote" the promotions. I think this was an agenda item that had been open and never closed and needed to be closed. This would help stop some of the speculation and desires around this idea.
Mt .02 worth.
Quote from: MIKE on August 25, 2009, 10:37:27 PM
... both flights and groups should be mandatory and get wings off of state boundaries. Some "wings" today could conceivably be groups commanded by a Maj or Lt Col.
I like both ideas.
Flights should be more activity oriented (for that matter, so should squadrons)....much of the administrative happiness ought to be handled at group level.
Right now with state= wing structure, we have wings smaller than the group I commanded some years back, and other wings (NY, CA, TX, FL) that probably rival the smaller regions in terms of membership....poor span of control.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 26, 2009, 02:23:11 AM
Right now with state= wing structure, we have wings smaller than the group I commanded some years back, and other wings (NY, CA, TX, FL) that probably rival the smaller regions in terms of membership....poor span of control.
You also have individual squadrons that are the size, or double the size of some wings. I think my unit is about 1/2 the size of RIWG...
And the SEP's really skew the numbers...
Quote from: caphistorian on August 26, 2009, 01:55:46 AM
I would not seriously take this as an attempt to "promote" the promotions. I think this was an agenda item that had been open and never closed and needed to be closed. This would help stop some of the speculation and desires around this idea.
Mt .02 worth.
It does look like someone had some time on their hands and decided to go back through the old minutes looking for unfinished business.
Quote from: Spike on August 26, 2009, 12:57:55 AM
How about the board decides to end this dream once and for all, instead to be replaced with a proposal to go back to the AF (after a decade and a half!) and ask for our blue rank slides back!
Seriously, we have been punished long enough over stupidity that happened before many members were even members!
I along with a few others here know the individual(s) responsible for the maroon now gray epaulet slides. They have since left the program. Time to recover from their stupidity.
Now this one makes sense.
More Generals in CAP?
Yes, they have ENTIRELY TOO much time if they are still even thinking of this issue.
CAP is not moving troops or making Theater Level decisions that require some MORE levels of education and tactical decision making. They may think they are. The real decisions had better be made on CAP can integrate its mission into the HLS realm, if that is their desire. But this kind of thing does not require a CAP 'Generalship" no matter how the Sr CAP "leadership" thinks so
This type of CAP "decision making" is what makes us look like some Third World dictators
Really time to table that agenda item and BURY it
CAP Generals as a volunteers.....sheeeshhh....look out for those egos >:D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Spike
CAP recover from previous stupidity?? CAP has had enough time to recover from it...they choose not to or leadership skills are NOT sharp enough to recover
Quote from: RiverAux on August 26, 2009, 01:27:46 AM
QuoteWell, it appears that the CG Aux way of doing things has some supporters on here. I am not a big fan of the CG aux way of using positional ranks, there is a much simpler solution.
While I've been accused of trying to CG Auxify the CAP, I'm not in favor of using positional ranks in CAP based on squadron/group/wing staff or leadership positions. If I were to start over it would be with a system based on ES qualifications - see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.0) for discussion.
What do you do in a cadet squadron that, for whatever reasons, doesn't have an ES presence? What ranks do their senior members hold?
Well, we could go back to the old days, as in 1960's, when the 20-1 had "manning tables".
There were limits to how many 2d Lts, 1st Lts, Capts, Majors and Lt Cols you could have in a unit.
The more members you had in a unit, the more grade authorizations you had.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 26, 2009, 03:02:21 AM
Quote from: caphistorian on August 26, 2009, 01:55:46 AM
I would not seriously take this as an attempt to "promote" the promotions. I think this was an agenda item that had been open and never closed and needed to be closed. This would help stop some of the speculation and desires around this idea.
Mt .02 worth.
It does look like someone had some time on their hands and decided to go back through the old minutes looking for unfinished business.
If you read the whole agenda item, you'll see that when it was postponed, it was with the note that it be reviewed at the Summer/Fall 2009 NB meeting. So, by definition, it has to be brought up. IMHO, it will be one of the quicker items to be considered and defeated.
We already have enough people in CAP walking around thinking that they are Generals ;D
Quote from: JC004 on August 25, 2009, 11:19:38 PM
Well if they want to be ridiculous, they might as well go all-out:
National CC - General
Region CCs - Lt Gen
Wing Commanders - Maj Gen
Group Commanders - Brig Gen
Squadron Commanders - Colonel
Wooooo! Generals for everybody! >:D :P
That's almost as bad as the purple BDU's >:D
Quote from: Nolan Teel on August 25, 2009, 09:08:05 PM
I'm curious to what everyone has to say about this. Pulled it right off the meeting agenda for National Boards coming up in Sept. As I read this, this was tabled from 2001. Do I understand CAP to be voting on if they want to go to the AF and request the additional Stars? Not trying to start a huge debate but I'm curious to what the members think/know about this.
National Commander- Lieutenant General
National Vice Commander- Major General
National Chief of Staff- Brigadier General
National Legal Officer- Brigadier General
National Finance Officer- Brigadier General
National Controller- Brigadier General
Eight CAP region commanders Brigadier General
It was not called back to the floor by a NB member, and therfore as an old business item it dies permanently. This was an intentional parlamentary move by the NB.
DARN! Does this mean I have to take my General Uniform back? AAHHHHH...Darn you to heck VANGUARD. I was so close to being a General!
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Quote from: Flying Pig on September 04, 2009, 11:34:52 PM
DARN! Does this mnea I have to take my General Uniform back? AAHHHHH...Darn you to heck VANGUARD. I was so close to being a General!
Dang! You California Cops wear such neat uniforms
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 05, 2009, 12:09:54 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 04, 2009, 11:34:52 PM
DARN! Does this mnea I have to take my General Uniform back? AAHHHHH...Darn you to heck VANGUARD. I was so close to being a General!
Dang! You California Cops wear such neat uniforms
Right down the the black tilted name tag.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 26, 2009, 01:27:46 AM
QuoteWell, it appears that the CG Aux way of doing things has some supporters on here. I am not a big fan of the CG aux way of using positional ranks, there is a much simpler solution.
While I've been accused of trying to CG Auxify the CAP, I'm not in favor of using positional ranks in CAP based on squadron/group/wing staff or leadership positions. If I were to start over it would be with a system based on ES qualifications - see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.0 for discussion.
You so stand accused... ;)
I can see it now the National CAC will want to make themselves Cadet Generals
NCAC Chairperson - General
NCAC Vice Chairperson - Lt General
NCAC Recorder - Maj General
Region Reps - Brig General