Hi there everyone. I had a big problem today when I went to the bx for uniform items. They held me on base for twenty minutes, the people at the gate, and at first told me CAP can't access the base and I have been going for uniform items for a year there now. Finally they called someone and found the regulations regarding CAP and the bx and let me in, but I felt like a total criminal being held there waiting in the car to get in. I think on the back of the photo id it should say something like, "Authorized to patronize AAFES for uniform items" or something like the CG Aux ones do. Maybe it will help when I have my CG Aux id as well so I'll have two aux ids to show that I'm not bad.
I'd recommend you keep a copy of CAPR 147-1 in your wallet or glove box... http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503080356.pdf
Quote from: Al Sayre on August 17, 2009, 11:35:21 PM
I'd recommend you keep a copy of CAPR 147-1 in your wallet or glove box... http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503080356.pdf
Is there a matching AF regulation or instruction? The folks at the gate may not be impressed by a CAP regulation.
My ancient (circa 1981) Sea Cadet ID card did include a statement about exchange priviliges on the back. It quoted the pertinent Navy regulation so doubters could look it up. Getting through the gate was another story, but it worked like a charm at the exchange.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 17, 2009, 11:50:10 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on August 17, 2009, 11:35:21 PM
I'd recommend you keep a copy of CAPR 147-1 in your wallet or glove box... http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503080356.pdf
Is there a matching AF regulation or instruction? The folks at the gate may not care much about a CAP regulation.
They don't. But the Army Regulation 215-8/AFI 34-211(I) joint pub referenced in 147-1 would probably be useful.
Edit:
This will probably be useful: http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r215_8.pdf
Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 17, 2009, 11:50:10 PM...My ancient (circa 1981) Sea Cadet ID card did include a statement about exchange priviliges on the back. It quoted the pertinent Navy regulation so doubters could look it up. Getting through the gate was another story, but it worked like a charm at the exchange.
That would be handy. Seems like it used to be on CAP ID's, but I don't remember when.
I think it would definitely need to reference a specific AF regulation to be useful. Otherwise you've just got some ID they've never seen that claims to allow access. No reason for them to believe a statement like that.
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 17, 2009, 11:29:58 PM... Maybe it will help when I have my CG Aux id as well so I'll have two aux ids to show that I'm not bad.
You may be in the same boat (pun intended)... While you would be authorized to shop at AAFES MCSS or NEX for uniform items only, the back of the Aux ID states: "AUTHORIZED PATRONAGE COAST GUARD EXCHANGE/MWR".
While the regulation may state that you can use the MCSS for uniform supplies, ultimately it is up to the installation commander to authorize your visit to the base. If, for some reason, he says "Those Civilian Air Patrolers are more of a headache than its worth..." he can stop CAP members from being on his base.
While it may be inconvenient to get stopped when there is a new guard at the gate, remember that you are ultimately a guest to the base and if you want to get on, you have to play their game.
But, as was pointed out, it may be a little easier if you come prepared with a copy of some regulations.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 17, 2009, 11:50:10 PM
Is there a matching AF regulation or instruction?
Yes - AFI 10-2701 wwwpublic.wpafb.af.mil/cap/forms/afi10-2701.pdf
However don't get your shorts bunched. On a lot of bases who is allowed to get in is completely subjective to the personnel manning the gate or visitors center, and on occasion everyone gets randomly pulled over.
We have days where everyone is sent to the VC for a full day pass, and others where your ID and a smile are all you need. And its not just CAP. Recently a few of our reservists got stopped at the gate despite their CAC's because they didn't have decals and we are on the base of a service which still issues and requires them.
Putting verbiage about some regulation a civilian security guard has never heard of isn't going to help much.
Ahhh... I get my CAC on Monday...
Although I don't think this is a major issue, it is one of those minor irritants that makes me become less excited about being the "AF aux". You would think between the two organizations they would be able to come to some sort of mutual agreement about the form of our IDs that would let us avoid some of the hassles other civilians go through to get on base. After all, we do have to go through background checks to be a CAP senior member. No, I don't expect a full easy-access pass, but it is ridiculous that we have to carry around copies of AF regulations on this issue.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 18, 2009, 03:39:05 AM
Although I don't think this is a major issue, it is one of those minor irritants that makes me become less excited about being the "AF aux". You would think between the two organizations they would be able to come to some sort of mutual agreement about the form of our IDs that would let us avoid some of the hassles other civilians go through to get on base. After all, we do have to go through background checks to be a CAP senior member. No, I don't expect a full easy-access pass, but it is ridiculous that we have to carry around copies of AF regulations on this issue.
It's pretty much the Base Commander's option on who gets access to their base.
There have been times in the past when we had to be escorted to the MCSS from the Main Gate and back again because a Base Commander had a bad experience with somebody from CAP.
Yes. Can be quite vexing. As a result of my life circumstances I have occasion to visit a number of bases.
From Hickum to Vance, Columbus, Maxwell, Ft Rucker and the Air Force Academy just last week (and a few others in-between) I have never had a problem with my ID. Sometimes in uniform, sometimes not, I have always been treated with respect and recognition.
Ironically, on the ARB here at home where wing HQ is located, I have to call at least a day in advance to get put on a list for admission.
I agree with the above in that we probably have ourselves to blame in large part.
As the AF Aux we get dissed yet the guy working at Burger King on base gets on without a second look. At least we are subjected to a FBI fingerprint check. The criminal cooking up your Whopper has easier acces than CAP !!!!!!
Quote from: Smokey on August 19, 2009, 03:40:34 AM
As the AF Aux we get dissed yet the guy working at Burger King on base gets on without a second look. At least we are subjected to a FBI fingerprint check. The criminal cooking up your Whopper has easier acces than CAP !!!!!!
Haven't had too many Burger King guys buying stuff they're not authorised to buy in the BX.
And most of the people working at the on-base Burger Kings are usually military dependants.
Quote from: PHall on August 19, 2009, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: Smokey on August 19, 2009, 03:40:34 AM
As the AF Aux we get dissed yet the guy working at Burger King on base gets on without a second look. At least we are subjected to a FBI fingerprint check. The criminal cooking up your Whopper has easier acces than CAP !!!!!!
Haven't had too many Burger King guys buying stuff they're not authorised to buy in the BX.
And most of the people working at the on-base Burger Kings are usually military dependants.
are you sure these contractors don't get some sort of background check?
From what I've been told, no background checks on the workers there or the vendors in the BX. Others allowed on are folks like appliance repairmen (like Sears) cable TV folks, etc. They just show ID, usually a drivers lic, at the gate and go right on through.
And although some of the Burger King workers are dependants, others are Joe off the street. They get base access without question.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 18, 2009, 12:43:14 AM
While the regulation may state that you can use the MCSS for uniform supplies, ultimately it is up to the installation commander to authorize your visit to the base. If, for some reason, he says "Those Civilian Air Patrolers are more of a headache than its worth..." he can stop CAP members from being on his base.
While it may be inconvenient to get stopped when there is a new guard at the gate, remember that you are ultimately a guest to the base and if you want to get on, you have to play their game.
But, as was pointed out, it may be a little easier if you come prepared with a copy of some regulations.
I would perfer no changes. Just call ahead in advance to your local military base and get comfirmation that you can get on base. Don't forget to get the persons name that you talked to for a refrence just in case you are denied entrance to the base.
This is a place where your State Director can be of great help.
My Department of the Army civilian contractor CAC card actually has imprinted on the face specific exchange/MWR privileges I can use. (AAFES is the only game in town on Kwajalein!)
I'll agree that when - and if - they update the CAP ID card (not the library card membership card - that should go away) they could add the following blurb on the face of the card:
Authorized Patronage:
Limited Exchange (AR 215-8/AFI 34-211) and limited MWR with military support authorization (MSA) letter; MCSS and food court only without MSA.
My two cents' worth - before taxes take it all away! ;D
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 19, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
My Department of the Army civilian contractor CAC card actually has imprinted on the face specific exchange/MWR privileges I can use. (AAFES is the only game in town on Kwajalein!)
I'll agree that when - and if - they update the CAP ID card (not the library card membership card - that should go away) they could add the following blurb on the face of the card:
Authorized Patronage:
Limited Exchange (AR 215-8/AFI 34-211) and limited MWR with military support authorization (MSA) letter; MCSS and food court only without MSA.
My two cents' worth - before taxes take it all away! ;D
Very smart. I agree.
I agree
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
AlphaSigOU - exactly.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
Unless you're on a MSA (Military Support Authorization), the only thing you can buy at AAFES are uniform items.
If you're on a MSA you can buy everything at the Exchange except alcohol and tobacco.
True i was talking about uniforms
Quote from: PHall on August 20, 2009, 12:54:41 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
Unless you're on a MSA (Military Support Authorization), the only thing you can buy at AAFES are uniform items.
If you're on a MSA you can buy everything at the Exchange except alcohol and tobacco.
Even furniture and other "big ticket" items?
Quote from: SarDragon on August 20, 2009, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 20, 2009, 12:54:41 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
Unless you're on a MSA (Military Support Authorization), the only thing you can buy at AAFES are uniform items.
If you're on a MSA you can buy everything at the Exchange except alcohol and tobacco.
Even furniture and other "big ticket" items?
I certainly wouldn't - at least not for personal use, though its at least technically authorized. I suppose if I needed a television, or DVD player for the unit on base, encampment, etc., I might consider it, but that's a sure way to get the light of scrutiny shined on you for no good reason.
At least in my AOR, the prices at the exchange don't compete very well with the Big Box down the street.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
The point of the thread is that some base security is confused about giving CAP access to the base at all.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 20, 2009, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 20, 2009, 12:54:41 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
Unless you're on a MSA (Military Support Authorization), the only thing you can buy at AAFES are uniform items.
If you're on a MSA you can buy everything at the Exchange except alcohol and tobacco.
Even furniture and other "big ticket" items?
The current reg was written before AAFES started carrying "big ticket" items, so it's not addressed.
But I don't think I would want to be the first person to try it though.
And since I have a military ID, I don't have to.
I'm in the same catagory as PHall so I don't worry about the ID cards. However, I seem to remember a fewa years back seeing a chart hanging on a wall in the exchange. It had pictures of the various ID cards and an explaination of their authorized use. A CAP ID was one of those cards.
Quote from: Rotorhead on August 20, 2009, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 12:39:11 AM
if you have your official CAP membership card you should be able tobuy things at AFFES.
The point of the thread is that some base security is confused about giving CAP access to the base at all.
Its base dependant. Here in Atlanta, CAP members have to notify the Wing Administartor 24 hours inadvance if they are visiting the base so they can be put on a list for the security folks. I dont agree with that. I think thats why we have CAP[USAF to be that bridge between CAP and the USAF (hense the name) CAP-USAF folks need to explain to base commanders who we are and what we are.
I have to say that having access and exchange privileges isn't really as great as it sounds. I recently went shopping for a new Sony LCD. After shopping around, the BX was one of the highest priced places. Best Buy and Sears were less money than AAFES by $400 for the exact same tv. Granted AAFES matched the price and I saved on tax, but I had to jump through hoops to prove the price. I felt as if they thought I was trying to pull something on them to get their TV for less money. The craziest thing was I use to work for AAFES part time.
The BX isn't what it use to be. I know that we have the privilege to purchase uniform items from MCSS, but we also have access to multiple sources online to get what you need. Not everyone lives next door to an AFB and they seem to do just fine for what they need. I personally wouldn't deal with the headache. I have been to a number of bases and in fact the last base had complete support by the instillation commander to include a written authorization that was posted at each gate and members still had problems getting on base.
I agree that the libary card needs to be replaced with something more professional, but until then I recommend avoiding the headache you get by trying to get on base with your CAP ID.
Being in a military family, I know what you mean. It just depends on what you are buying at the time. I do think that CG Aux are treated much better when it comes to getting on bases though for some reason.
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Being in a military family, I know what you mean. It just depends on what you are buying at the time. I do think that CG Aux are treated much better when it comes to getting on bases though for some reason.
Real Auxiliary. CAP is not.
Yes, I am finding that out very fast and have only been an aux coastie for a few months now, but sort of like it a little bit differently than CAP. I get to spend more time with active duty in the CG Aux.
Quote from: Spike on August 20, 2009, 10:10:41 PM
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Being in a military family, I know what you mean. It just depends on what you are buying at the time. I do think that CG Aux are treated much better when it comes to getting on bases though for some reason.
Real Auxiliary. CAP is not.
Quote from: Spike on August 20, 2009, 10:10:41 PM
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Being in a military family, I know what you mean. It just depends on what you are buying at the time. I do think that CG Aux are treated much better when it comes to getting on bases though for some reason.
Real Auxiliary. CAP is not.
Define "real."
CAP is real. To me I think there should be some changes about how the AF sees us though. Like in the CG Aux, its not the COast Guard Auxiliary and the Coast Guard, its the Coast Guard and we're not treated as separate organizations, we are actually a component of the uniformed service like the reserves.
Quote from: Rotorhead on August 20, 2009, 10:25:42 PM
Quote from: Spike on August 20, 2009, 10:10:41 PM
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Being in a military family, I know what you mean. It just depends on what you are buying at the time. I do think that CG Aux are treated much better when it comes to getting on bases though for some reason.
Real Auxiliary. CAP is not.
Define "real."
Why do insist on putting your responses above the quotes? Its really hard to read.
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 10:47:42 PM
CAP is real. To me I think there should be some changes about how the AF sees us though. Like in the CG Aux, its not the COast Guard Auxiliary and the Coast Guard, its the Coast Guard and we're not treated as separate organizations, we are actually a component of the uniformed service like the reserves.
No, you're not. You are an incorporated civilian auxiliary, same as CAP, with a very narrowly defined scope as to your participation. Do not confuse the circumstantial nature of where you participate with what your role within the framework is.
Forgive me I use a screen reading program due to my sight impairment, so it automatically does that.
CAP is a corporation and the CG Aux isn't. CG Aux is actually a all the time part of the regular CG.
Why don't CAP members get like the CG Aux allowed to purchase anything from the AF exchanges except tax free items like we get in the CG Aux purchase anything at CG exchanges?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2009, 11:06:41 PM
Why do insist on putting your responses above the quotes? Its really hard to read.
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on August 20, 2009, 10:47:42 PM
CAP is real. To me I think there should be some changes about how the AF sees us though. Like in the CG Aux, its not the COast Guard Auxiliary and the Coast Guard, its the Coast Guard and we're not treated as separate organizations, we are actually a component of the uniformed service like the reserves.
No, you're not. You are an incorporated civilian auxiliary, same as CAP, with a very narrowly defined scope as to your participation. Do not confuse the circumstantial nature of where you participate with what your role within the framework is.
You might want to spend some time with your charter and your bylaws, as to the shopping question,
if where we can shop is a barometer of our level of integration with our parent service, I'd say the priorities are in the wrong place.
Why are people in this orginization always concerned with BX privliges. If your at a active base they give you a MSA for schools and encampment. Shopped at the BX for years, not a big deal!!!! . I think our photo ID is fine, you should have seen what we had in the 80's and 90's I have known types in CAP who just want to hang around the base and try to use the exchange and other services. I know in the past CAP members have been caught using these service with out permission.
Its human nature to want something you don't need when someone says you can't have it.
Right now there are disgruntled members 500 miles from their nearest base stewing because they can't pay 20% more for a TV.
At the end of the day its all coffee-house fodder except for what you, as a member, want to do.
If aviation, cadets, and an inland operational mission are your thing, CAP is the way to go.
If checking fire extinguishers and counting life preservers "floats your boat" (heh, good one) - join the CGAux.
If you have time, join both, and the ARC, and your local CERT team and live out of your 79 Pacer SAR Beast. Whatever. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges, especially in a hierarchal sense. It gets us nowhere, and just hacks off the monkey!
(http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Speciesism/monkey-stick_1207558i.jpg)
The guards at the gate does not have to let you in. They can make you go to a visitor's center and get a visitor's pass if they wanted too. I work for AAFES. If they have the proper authorization then I have no problem with CAP buying anything at PX/BX. But if not authorized then that could you and the clerk in trouble with CID. Access to base and AAFES is subject to Base Commander. Now in reference to the BK worker comment, yes all AAFES employees are subject to background chech before hiring. So I don't know where you heard that. They will either get a DoD CAC or an AAFES ID card both of which says "Limited Patronage". The AAFeS ID card is the old dependent ID card from the 80's and 90's. Of course they get them because they have to enter the base everyday. But is still subject to inspection. No one is immune to inspections. I was driving the Adjudant General of MD on base one day and was still searched. My advice. Just do what you are told when you get to the gate. Don't argue with the guards. If they refuse to let you enter with your CAP card then so be it. It's not worth it.
A reminder about purchasing uniform items. This does not include field gear. Only uniforms and unform accessories. Also remember that purchase must be made in cash or credit/debit. You may not be able to return things so make sure it's what you need and size that you need because to return items you must be in DEERS.
About the photo ID card. I think it looks pretty good. It does look professional. Better then MDDF's old ID card. What I would suggest is CAPHQ send an example of it to AAFES HQ to update the ID card list. Current list has the CAP membersip card (before the current blue). So maybe USAF-CAP can send a sample of the photo ID card to CG of AAFES.
Quote from: md132 on August 21, 2009, 07:57:11 PM
About the photo ID card. I think it looks pretty good. It does look professional. Better then MDDF's old ID card. What I would suggest is CAPHQ send an example of it to AAFES HQ to update the ID card list. Current list has the CAP membersip card (before the current blue). So maybe USAF-CAP can send a sample of the photo ID card to CG of AAFES.
A solution :clap:
Another suggestion is have your state director, with the permission of HQ and Wing, send a sample of it to all the Post/ Base Commanders and Head of the Department of Law Enforment and Security on base in your state. That way the police knows what it looks like and may not question it. The operativer word is MAY.
Quote from: md132 on August 21, 2009, 03:57:22 AM
Also remember that purchase must be made in cash or credit/debit. You may not be able to return things so make sure it's what you need and size that you need because to return items you must be in DEERS.
No true. Call AAFES and register as a CAP Member. Then you can use a personal check at an MCSS.
As for returns......no need to be in DEERS when you present a valid CAP ID Card, and Drivers License and receipt.
Remember I work for AAFES. Unless AAFES HQ changed that and not tell the managers then what I said was true. When a check is run or refund is processed, we use SSN to check the status of the patron. If the patron is military, retired, dependent and have no debts then it wouldn't be a problem. When a check is run, then it checks the system for any debts and if that person is authorized.
The system only lets us use SSN because since each person's SSN is unique. We don't search by name because there could be more then on person with the same name. Even whole name. I met a soldier that had the same full name as myself. But if your MCSS/PX/BX let you do it the so be it. I know APG and Ft Meade will not.
^ google "AAFES REG's" and read.
Your location is varying from the normal routine. There may have been a reason in the past for a deviation, but it is not how it is everywhere else.
As for the Social Security Number when running a check through checkout, it is to see if the customer owes any money to AAFES. If so, the check will not clear. It was never meant to screen. Screening is done at the door through verification of correct Identification.
Trust me.......I know how AAFES works. I may be the guy that hired you.... you never know ;)