Seems to me that CAP should consider implementing a Random Illegal Drug Testing Program for all senior members as well as paid staff >:D
It very least for the volunteer members I would target commanders, finance officers, supply officers, & all pilots, since illegal drug usage could seriously impact any of these positions.
On the CAP employee level, especially at geographically separated from national headquarters locations e.g. wing administrators, state directors, wing financial analysts this could be a priority to implement.
Additionally IF any aircraft or vehicle accidents occurred this would automatically trigger a mandatory test.
This could be done right at squadron/group/wing meeting locations. Companies that do this testing usually obtained sample kits from the contractor that is processing the sample & a strict protocol must be followed. It is also possible to use a local contractor collection point for actually give the sample.
This would again show our potential customers that we are very serious on safety & homeland security & really are part of the USAF mission :angel:
Comments?
RM
This is my 12' pole:
(http://www.cosgroveaircraft.com/newmarketimages/471-6-12POLE.JPG)
that i'm not touching this subject with.
I would imagine paid staff already do so. Most jobs already require it, and I think anything related to government work does.
Accident related, I can understand. When it comes to aircraft and some other incidents in the military, it's normal to "pee and bleed". I don't think it's unreasonable.
As to the rest, I don't know. Do we have any documented cases where it's an issue? There are a couple former members of an old unit that were asked not to attend meetings due to smelling of alcohol. I don't think that's out of bounds, but requiring drug tests when there's not really an issue that calls for it seems a little much.
There is a cost factor to consider as well.
Good God!
Where the funding for this little mission??
Maybe start w/ some of the folks putting 39-1 together after that ganja party!
You really need to do something constructive....wanna help to put up sheet rock on my new 34X30 garage??? NO PAY!!
Oh wait..... THAT would require me to pull out my urinalysis cup >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:26:03 PM
This is my 12' pole:
{redacted}
that i'm not touching this subject with.
You're an overachiever. Most people use the standard ten foot pole.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2009, 11:32:37 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:26:03 PM
This is my 12' pole:
{redacted}
that i'm not touching this subject with.
You're an overachiever. Most people use the standard ten foot pole.
Yeah I know. It's all I could find on short notice. I was gonna use the 8' one that telescopes to 24', but THAT would have been overachieving.
Is there any evidence of CAP having accidents or other problems amongst that group of people that would warrant such an expensive program? Is there any evidence that such a program is effective at reducing accidents or other problems in volunteer groups such as ours?
Really?!!? Really this is not needed. The FED already takes care of the CAP-USAF side (State Directors, etc.), and the Wing Admins from my understanding go through a pre-employment background check and drug screening as well as all other paid staffers at Maxwell.
If someone can come up with say, $100,000 (more like $400,000) to do this, OK.
If not lets drive on into the next uniform discussion.
By the way, how would you do "unannounced" screening for volunteers?? When I see the white van with "Drug Screening Inc." printed on its side sitting outside the unit before a meeting, I would make a U-Turn and head home, give it a week to clear my system and test the next week.
By the Way, I do not use drugs. So Cadets....DO NOT DO DRUGS, and please stay in school. Society can not support you yet.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 15, 2009, 11:45:27 PM
Is there any evidence of CAP having accidents or other problems amongst that group of people that would warrant such an expensive program? Is there any evidence that such a program is effective at reducing accidents or other problems in volunteer groups such as ours?
To add to RiverAux's questions:
If you want CAP to adopt this so that we can appear 'more professional' to potential clients, and say that we are following Ma Blue's lead on random drug testing, answer this: Exactly how many potential clients have turned us down due to NOT currently having this system?
And, how many potential clients would give new missions to CAP if we DID implement this system?
The answers better represent about a $5 Million USD per year uptick in Paid Missions to overcome the cost of the program AND the loss of Privacy among members. If the differential is less than that, forget about it.
Thom Hamilton
Quote from: Spike on August 16, 2009, 01:12:24 AM
Really?!!? Really this is not needed. The FED already takes care of the CAP-USAF side (State Directors, etc.), and the Wing Admins from my understanding go through a pre-employment background check and drug screening as well as all other paid staffers at Maxwell.
By the way, how would you do "unannounced" screening for volunteers?? When I see the white van with "Drug Screening Inc." printed on its side sitting outside the unit before a meeting, I would make a U-Turn and head home, give it a week to clear my system and test the next week.
Really, I didn't know that civilian employees of CAP are drug tested randomly? Probably pre employment screening, but I didn't think any civilians were in the random program.
The beauty of random drug testing is you don't know until you show up at the meeting. Than the unit drug surveilliance officer approaches you and with an appropriate chaparone takes you to the rest room where you produce the sample & it is sent off to the lab by the UDSO!!! Only the commander and UDSO know who is on the random list so if you miss a week of meeting it doesn't matter because they will get you when you show up.
I administer the program for my employer for some of our employees that have to be in the program in order to comply with federal law. It is pretty easy to administer. We use a subcontractor that does the selection & also there's subcontractor operated lab specimen collection facilities. I also have some collection materials on hand in case of a supervisor suspection or serious accident directed sample.
I might add that if it already isn't being done (documented) every CAP aircraft & vehicle should also have the drug sniffer dogs run through it every once and awhile (just like the military does).
RM
Radioman
I as well as a number of 66 series TI's were tasked with this little trinket of a job and reasoned our E-6 tails off of the detail when approached the Commander of an Aviation Brigade and asked politely and tactfully, why the ARNG was wasting TI's time when it could be handled by SGT X rather than aircraft inspectors....
It took awhile for them to see the reasoning, but a 160th SOAR buddy of mine and I got off the detail and back to aircraft inspections..
My question is...........You really into this gig? Saw this stuff in civilian life also
But I have not really REALLY seen any drug taking riff raff in CAP to really warrant this or these actions
Pony up the money, my man, and START the program...you'll be glad you did!!!
I'm agreeing with heliodoc? I guess I did see a hog at 500' this afternoon... (and in honor of heliodoc >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D )
Law suit!
Chain of custody!
Selctive Randomness!
Drug Testing as retaliation!
Cost of Program!
Think it through!
Not a good idea.
(http://www.mildenhall.af.mil/shared/media/ggallery/hires/AFG-090722-006.jpg)
There could be something to this. Perhaps we could find out what they are using when they come up with uniform changes and some other absurd proposals.
This sounds like yet another solution in search of a problem.
You guys need to get off the computer and get out more!
(http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsxp/images/using/setup/hwprograms/67411-click-turn-off.gif)
(http://www.treehugger.com/computer-power-button.jpg)
This is what outside looks like...
(http://www.chemistryland.com/ChemEdArticle/PictureWindow1.jpg)
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2009, 11:32:37 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:26:03 PM
This is my 12' pole:
{redacted}
that i'm not touching this subject with.
You're an overachiever. Most people use the standard ten foot pole.
He has raised it to a new and arguable unacceptable level.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 16, 2009, 02:09:27 AM
Law suit!
Chain of custody!
Selctive Randomness!
Drug Testing as retaliation!
Cost of Program!
Think it through!
Not a good idea.
Hmm, Cost would be the biggest concern & again perhaps the AF could come up with a method, funding, & actually maintain control/administration based upon an appropriate sampling plan that would result in a very high confidence level that at least a critical select group of CAP'ers are drug free.
This would be especially applicable to when CAP members are performing AF directed/funded missions, with special emphasis on pilots & secondary other flight crew members. Perhaps some sort of small testing pilot program could be tried first by the AF & depending upon results (and funding availability) expanded or eliminated.
It's interesting that CAP'ers want to talk the talk & walk the walk as far as a military auxiliary, but bring up random drug testing and there seems to be resistance.
Please remember that these type of random test programs protects us all and is preemptive strike BEFORE serious issues arise and a knee jerk response will then be required.
RM
Having been in a random drug test program, there are some issues that have not been addressed.
1. Proper sample taking procedures. After being tapped for a random sample, the employee/member/etc must be driven to a testing site. This is usually a medical clinic of some sort. Proper paperwork must be completed. Samples cannot be stored overnight at the testing site. Testing sites have a designated restroom that is used with such features as dyed toilet water and remote water shut-off valves.
2. As noted, overnight storage of the sample is not permited. The lab must receive it the smae day as the sample was taken. (I had several issues as a bus driver because I was taken to the clinic after the courier left for the day.)
3. The military system will not work for us because WE ARE NOT MILITARY PERSONNEL. CAP would need to follow the accepted civilian practices. Failure to do so could lead to a lawsuit CAP could not win.
4. What percentage of senior wold need to be tested and on what cycle?
QuoteIt's interesting that CAP'ers want to talk the talk & walk the walk as far as a military auxiliary, but bring up random drug testing and there seems to be resistance.
There is resistence because you have not shown any evidence that it is a necessary expense or that it would accomplish anything. There are plenty of programs that make sense for the military that don't necessarily make sense for us (not that I think random drug testing is necessary for the military either).
yeah, I am going to have time to go take a p*%#!* test during the day. Please dont sugget that we create a duty postion for a guy at the squadron to collect it. I think drug testing is a good idea, but this is not the place. If we adopt a program where does it stop.... Cadet Comp,,, ;D.
The original message is the kind of post that always makes me wonder if it's legitimate inquiry or just someone trying to light off a flame war.
Is there a problem in CAP, or is this a solution in search of a problem?
Others have already mentioned the cost. Do you have any notion of how much work goes in to a program like this? I was until recently responsible for random testing in a small Part 121 airline flight department... maybe 80 personnel all together. It took probably two days a month of scheduling, fiddling, and paperwork. Magnify that by the entire CAP, and you'll have an idea what the job would entail. Do you have someone in your squadron willing to spend a couple of man days a month on being the drug testing officer? And it's hideously expensive. Unless there's a known, systemic problem, we don't need to go there.
Post-accident drug testing I can see a use for. It would be very difficult to manage properly, though.
And I wonder how redundant it would be - how many of us are already covered under random testing programs where we work? I am, and I'll bet a significant percentage of us are.
Quote from: AirDX on August 16, 2009, 04:28:20 PM
The original message is the kind of post that always makes me wonder if it's legitimate inquiry or just someone trying to light off a flame war.
Is there a problem in CAP, or is this a solution in search of a problem?
Post-accident drug testing I can see a use for. It would be very difficult to manage properly, though.
There's no intention by me to start a flame war on the board. IIsn't the lobby the proper place to bring up potentially controversial subjects ???
I agree with others that even random testing in the military may not be necessary BUT acts as a deterrance to illegal drug usage. I always found that commander directed testing because of a incident (accident or personnel management related) or information from investigative sources (e.g OSI) had a higher hit rate than the random testing, but it too was not very significant overall.
I agree that implementation of this in CAP, including post accident/incident would be difficult to implement as some have indicated.
Hopefully the consensus of the group that this is a solution in search of a problem is correct. HOWEVER, without a testing program one will really never know (or perhaps a better way to put it is that NO one really wants to know).
RM
Are you effing joking???
Random pee tests for a volunteer .org? We've got enough problems recruiting and retaining members without having to go through this crap.
You want to dope test someone after a major accident, say you total an aircraft or vehicle accident with injuries, we can talk. Those are few and far enough between that it might be worth the effort.
I've got enough to do at wing than worry if I should have stuck my Whizzinator in my pocket before I drove to Salina.
If there was a way to have it funded, I would agree with this policy... especially for pilots.
If being substance free(especially as an aircraft operator or a Senior in charge of cadets) is an issue for someone, is this really the type of member we would want to retain?
When dealing with aircraft, most post accident testing is post mortem. I prefer to prevent accidents over investigating them.
I would have no problem with drug testing Senior members and paid staff. The only problem I see is the cost. A drug program I belong with my employment cost $100.00 every time someone is radomly tested.
Like has been said, this seems like a solution looking for a problem.
If there is a significant problem within CAP, and I'm not talking a few isolated cases, then the cost and effort is not justified.
I understand about preventive measures, but we don't round up a whole neighborhood because one of them MAY have committed a crime.
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:35:00 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2009, 11:32:37 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:26:03 PM
This is my 12' pole:
{redacted}
that i'm not touching this subject with.
You're an overachiever. Most people use the standard ten foot pole.
Yeah I know. It's all I could find on short notice. I was gonna use the 8' one that telescopes to 24', but THAT would have been overachieving.
I need one of those for work. It would help us place the blade tie downs.
Quote from: flyerthom on August 21, 2009, 02:19:39 AM
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:35:00 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2009, 11:32:37 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on August 15, 2009, 11:26:03 PM
This is my 12' pole:
{redacted}
that i'm not touching this subject with.
You're an overachiever. Most people use the standard ten foot pole.
Yeah I know. It's all I could find on short notice. I was gonna use the 8' one that telescopes to 24', but THAT would have been overachieving.
I need one of those for work. It would help us place the blade tie downs.
You find those at Home Depot. Extendable light bulb replacement tool. Replace end fixture with a hook made from #10 wire and there you are. And it collaspes down to 36 inches.
This is my 12' pole:
that i'm not touching this subject with.
Amen!!
The logistics of simply getting people to take the EO training and Ground Handling Videos demonstrates one potential set back in implementation. I will point out a few other flaws, to add to the ones already listed in the above thread I have read.
1) The nature of CAP, spread out, where even metropolitan units, like Corpus Christi, are isolated from their Group and Wing Command (250 miles or so to Group, some 400-plus miles to Wing) We hardly ever even see Group and Wing Staff in our area...now you would have one come in to enforce a screening. The only other alternative would be to send a CAP Officer a letter demanding a test be taken locally. This would violate the integrity of the test.
2) Every unit has people on their roles that are not active although listed as "active members." They continue on in CAP merely to contribute money or to prevent their file from erasing when they wish to or can be active. While they should become patrons, there is no current way (short of ghost squadrons) to force them to patron status. When these people become selected (Congrats!!! Urine the the new program!!!) what then? Wasted money, time and probably hassle.
3) Random? Really? I've seen people "randomly" selected for jury duty some time five times in two months. I imagine that a person could find themselves "selected" a little too often. This would smack of some for of machination to "drive them off." I smell LAWSUIT!!!
4) Which program is going to have to be curtailed or sacrificed to pay for such a program? ES? AE? CP? The USAF would not spend a dime, cut a program nor even try to allocate for such a thing. One could call for "volunteer random screenings," where one is selected and the volunteer pays for the screening under the auspices of the Unit Commander or other official. They could then cite refusal to pay as proof of a violation of the Core Value or Integrity and issue a CAPF 2b. However, I think everyone would label that ridiculous.
12 foot poles be darned!!!
I think when I start getting a paycheck from the CAP they can test my urine.
They can test me anytime they want . I have nothing to hide. Now my point...would this be ncesessary. I am 100% in support of testing if you are involved in any accident. ONLY
I think it should be the newest 2nd Lt. After all the rank matches the color..heheheh