Alright ... I effectively have no mentor, his interests are else where and I'm getting no uniform guidance. What is the minimum a Senior Member needs for his Class Bs?
AF blue pants
AF blue short sleeve shirt
dress shoes
black dress socks
?
?
?
?
Thanks in advance.
Everybody duck!!!!
(http://a5.vox.com/6a00e398e57adc000400fad6a3798d0005-500pi)
Quote from: StopLoss on July 23, 2009, 01:16:58 AM
Alright ... I effectively have no mentor, his interests are else where and I'm getting no uniform guidance. What is the minimum a Senior Member needs for his Class Bs?
AF blue pants
AF blue short sleeve shirt
dress shoes
black dress socks
?
?
?
?
Thanks in advance.
A short sleeve service uniform would include the items you've listed along with a flight cap, web belt with silver AF belt buckle and appropriate insignia which would include the flight cap crest device, grey nametag and grey shoulder loops depicting insignia of grade. If you hold a specialty track rating, the appropriate device may be worn centered on either shirt pocket though the left side is normally used. Ribbons, both CAP and military, may be worn as an option just over the left shirt pocket. I'm not going to try to cover everything; please refer to CAPM 39-1. Much of it is out of date but the portion that covers the service uniform is still pretty accurate. Oh yes, we don't call them "Class B's" in CAP or in the Air Force.
CAPM 39-1 1-5. a. (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M39_1_cover_thru_chap_1.pdf) Page 8.
Okay.
First...there are a lot of people here (I'm not one) who just hate the use of the old "class-a" "class-b" terms for the Service Dress Uniform.
Second....CAPM 39-1 is your friend. Yes there a lots of holes and lots of gray areas, and other problems with it, but for 90% of uniform questions it is clear and you should down load a copy.
To answer your question.
The Short Sleeve Service Uniforms consists of the following:
Flight Cap with silver officer (not general officer) braid and Civil Air Patrol Officers insignia
Short Sleeve Shirt
--gray 3 line name tag
--Gray shoulder rank epalautte or CAP cut outs on the collar if you are SM with out grade.
Blue Pants
Blue belt with silver buckel
Black socks
Black Low Quarter shoes or combat boots (don't go with the boots if you can avoid it).
White "V" Neck T-shirt
That is the basic uniform.
ribbons, wings, duty badges and othe doodads are added as you progress.
I'll be nice, since his unit leadership is obviously less than stellar.
First thing - there is no such thing as a Class B uniform. Whoever is using that terminology is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Second - in the absence of a competent mentor, CAPM 39-1 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf) is your friend. Pages 21, and 45 through 52 provide the information you seek. Look in the short sleeve shirt column for X's to indicate the necessary items.
But most of us know what they are. Following is from the Air Force Times:
Blue Mondays has Class Bs flying off shelves
By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Sep 19, 2008 15:29:03 EDT
Dress Blues Uniform shops have been busy the last couple weeks. Sales of Class B uniform items such pants, shirts, belts and caps jumped 60 percent in the week following the Sept. 4 announcement that most airmen must wear the blue uniform on Mondays, said Army Lt. Col. Dean Thurmont, spokesman for the Army & Air Force Exchange Service.
Discuss the new "blue Monday" policy with other readers
The rush created a temporary shortage of belts and enlisted caps and AAFES is working with suppliers to get the items back in stock, he added.
Since 2001, when airmen were allowed to wear their ABU, BDU or flight suit every day to reflect that the nation was at war, many have gone months without wearing their blue uniforms.
If you are a Senior Member Without Grade (SMWOG), you wear silver metal CAP "cutouts" on the collar of your shirt, and you do not wear any epaulet sleeves - just leave your shoulders empty.
The blank epaulet sleeves sold at Vanguard are not intended for this purpose.
Further, if you are an SMWOG, the flight cap you wear is the enlisted type with the blue braid, not the silver.
The above is true until you are appointed to 2d Lt., at which time you remove the cutouts, get the appropriate epaulet sleeves, and change the flight cap.
There is no such thing as a class B uniform in CAP
Quote from: flyguy06 on July 23, 2009, 02:12:39 AM
There is no such thing as a class B uniform in CAP
Cite...((*snicker*))...((*snort*))...I can't get it out... >:D
Quote from: Short Field on July 23, 2009, 01:45:54 AM
But most of us know what they are. Following is from the Air Force Times:
Blue Mondays has Class Bs flying off shelves
By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Sep 19, 2008 15:29:03 EDT
Dress Blues Uniform shops have been busy the last couple weeks. Sales of Class B uniform items such pants, shirts, belts and caps jumped 60 percent in the week following the Sept. 4 announcement that most airmen must wear the blue uniform on Mondays, said Army Lt. Col. Dean Thurmont, spokesman for the Army & Air Force Exchange Service.
Discuss the new "blue Monday" policy with other readers
The rush created a temporary shortage of belts and enlisted caps and AAFES is working with suppliers to get the items back in stock, he added.
Since 2001, when airmen were allowed to wear their ABU, BDU or flight suit every day to reflect that the nation was at war, many have gone months without wearing their blue uniforms.
Considering that the same writers who write stuff for the Air Force Times also write stuff for the Army Times, the Navy Times and the Marine Corps Times, I'm not exactly surprised they get stuff like that wrong.
But a little proof reading would have been nice...
Hats off for the constructive feedback from the forum members. "I'll be nice, since his unit leadership is obviously less than stellar", I'll show more decorum and re-frame from my personal assessment least it undermine the chain of command. With the new change of command we've just had I'm in hopes there will be a renewed sense of direction for the new senior members. The immediate need is for some basic guidance, when I'm given the opportunity to mentor I'll ensure anyone assigned to me is squared away up front and not on the back side. Wading through the CAP website and manuals, in true military fashion, is less than intuitive.
Recommendations heeded, I've got a copy of CAPM 39-1.
Thanks again.
If you are wanting to be an agent of change in your unit, there is a good bunch of people here that are more than happy to offer constructive advice and information. Just because there isn't anyone to be an active mentor for you at your unit currently, doesn't mean that you need to start alone and without direction.
If you need any type of information, please don't hesitate to drop a PM and I'll help if I can.
Oh, and welcome to CAPTalk :)
People, you cannot merely point people blindly to regulations...there is a lot to be said for proper guidance and mentoring for new members.
I have long pitied the cadets that come here for guidance and are constantly knocked down by people too annoyed by a newbie question to answer constructively or the uniform NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY that occasionally rears its head.
We need to start helping each other out, especially new people, or else all the self righteous posturing many of you put up is is no more than mindless rhetorical drivel.
And don't insult anyone's intelligence here with a "if you can't stand the fire, stay out of the kitchen" or "you don't have to read the posts if you don't agree" arguments. Simply help a brother or sister CAP airman out. Is that too much to ask? They come here for help and we throw up a wall of discourtesy.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 23, 2009, 04:50:53 AM
People, you cannot merely point people blindly to regulations...there is a lot to be said for proper guidance and mentoring for new members.
I have long pitied the cadets that come here for guidance and are constantly knocked down by people too annoyed by a newbie question to answer constructively or the uniform NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY that occasionally rears its head.
We need to start helping each other out, especially new people, or else all the self righteous posturing many of you put up is is no more than mindless rhetorical drivel.
And don't insult anyone's intelligence here with a "if you can't stand the fire, stay out of the kitchen" or "you don't have to read the posts if you don't agree" arguments. Simply help a brother or sister CAP airman out. Is that too much to ask? They come here for help and we throw up a wall of discourtesy.
We also can't coddle new members. One of the reasons why we have cowboy senior members and cadets out there doing their own thing is because they have never read the regulations.
No one has ever forced them to look it up themselves. SM Newguy learns from SM Oldguy that boonie hats are just fine, and you wear wing patches on your "class A's" and that you can drop your cadets anytime you want.
So when SM Newguy says....help I don't know the answer....I point them in the right direction and give them the "right now" information that they need.
Sure we need to cut the newbys some slack....but not much.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 23, 2009, 05:04:50 AM
We also can't coddle new members. One of the reasons why we have cowboy senior members and cadets out there doing their own thing is because they have never read the regulations.
With all do respect I can't see that as coddling. The only thing worse than a CAP Officer or Cadet that has never read the regulations is on that has read them and applied them under a misinterpretation.
You know as well as I do that there are those that can make apply any regulation under any interpretation they desire. I have seen this happen both on purpose and on accident. The results being detrimental to all involved.
Sending newbies to the regs without the benefit of the guiding hand of experience is asking for screw ups. I know first hand, when I first started working in my Unit my then Group Commander would address my questions with "its all in the regs" and then get all bent out of shape when we didn't interpret the regs as it was intended.
No, Sir..."go to the REGS" is a cop out. You have more than an obligation to guide them, you have a duty.
QuoteNo one has ever forced them to look it up themselves. SM Newguy learns from SM Oldguy that boonie hats are just fine, and you wear wing patches on your "class A's" and that you can drop your cadets anytime you want.
The practice you describe above is a problem only for people who do not let their "regs" and "policies" walk hand-in-hand. No one is saying "don't read the regs, just do what I do," I am saying you had better guide them.
QuoteSo when SM Newguy says....help I don't know the answer....I point them in the right direction and give them the "right now" information that they need.
So, what issue are you taking with what I am saying?
QuoteSure we need to cut the newbys some slack....but not much.
Remember, recruiting officer, those people you are trying to use tough love on are new to the program and do not have the emotional investment in it to always react in the manner you hope. Those are brother and sister CAP airmen who are alone with the regs 166 hours a week and who take 2 hours (likely the timeit takes to ask and answer question) of your time for clarification at meeting. How about being a brother officer and guide them?
I provided a link to the reg. I pointed out some page numbers to look at. I gave a bit of instruction on which column to look in for the uniform he had a Q about. If there's a lack of understanding, then we can do Q&A on the finer points. Is that so wrong? I "showed him how to fish".
Quote from: SarDragon on July 23, 2009, 06:35:31 AM
I provided a link to the reg. I pointed out some page numbers to look at. I gave a bit of instruction on which column to look in for the uniform he had a Q about. If there's a lack of understanding, then we can do Q&A on the finer points. Is that so wrong? I "showed him how to fish".
He came here asking for a mentor. He effectively has no mentor, because the interests of that person are else where and he was getting no uniform guidance. I am sure he can read a regulation. If reading the regulations was all it took, then there would be no need to come to a forum like this.
All you have done by posting the following...
QuoteI'll be nice, since his unit leadership is obviously less than stellar.
First thing - there is no such thing as a Class B uniform. Whoever is using that terminology is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Second - in the absence of a competent mentor, CAPM 39-1 is your friend. Pages 21, and 45 through 52 provide the information you seek. Look in the short sleeve shirt column for X's to indicate the necessary items.
Is sort of swagger (as much as can be done in a forum of this sort) demonstrating that "you know stuff" and he "doesn't."
What you should have said was...
QuoteIn the absence of a mentor, let me first say that CAP and the USAF do not have uniform "classes." We call what you are describing "minimum basic service dress." Some people bring in the lingo of other services to CAP, however the proper terms should be used.
The proper items are listed in CAP Manual 39-1, Pages 21, and 45 through 52 provide the information you seek. Look in the short sleeve shirt column for X's to indicate the necessary items.
Said manual can be found here...
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf)
A nice, informative guiding hand without all the "swagger." Odds are a newbie might not know what "CAPM" means and saying "wrong, wrong, wrong" in that manner is more reminiscent of Col Wilhelm Klink than a Civil Air Patrol Lt Col. Your comments on his unit leadership are also unbecoming.
You also provided no link to the manual. Teaching a man to fish with no water, rod or reel is a bit of a sticky wicket now. isn't it?
Well, tact has never been one of my strong points.
That said, I DID provide a link. Look at my post again. I failed to underline the link in my usual manner, but there's one there, underlined this time -
Quote from: SarDragon on July 23, 2009, 01:42:33 AMSecond - in the absence of a competent mentor, CAPM 39-1 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf) is your friend. Pages 21, and 45 through 52 provide the information you seek. Look in the short sleeve shirt column for X's to indicate the necessary items.
It appears that we have different approaches to this issue, yours perhaps a little more friendly, mine more utilitarian. But, I have provided information, however sparse, and all you have done is deride us for our attitudes.
If I really had an "I know stuff and he doesn't" attitude, I would never have provided anything more than "look in CAPM 39-1" (no link) and left it at that. Now, let's try to continue to help this guy, instead of abetting a urination competition.
For StopLoss (and any new guy coming into CAP):
Some additional pointers on the uniform:
Most of the shirts made by DSCP (Defense Supply Center Philadelphia) are AF shade 1550 (a very light blue polycotton that looks almost white in bright sunlight after a few washings). They're also tapered to an athletic fit. You may need to wear a size or two larger for a comfortable fit. There is a poly-wool shirt that is a slightly darker shade (AF shade 1582, I believe) and is a fuller cut (made by Propper) but all I've seen them in is a long sleeve length. The latter shirt is much more expensive. You must wear a tie with the long sleeve shirt.
The trousers: AF shade 1620 matches the service dress jacket. It is also dry-clean only. The doubleknit polyester version (AF shade 1625) is wash and wear but also recommended to be dry cleaned. If you get the service dress jacket later on BE SURE that the shades and weaves match (1620 jacket and 1620 trousers). Don't wear 1625 trousers with a 1620 jacket - the mismatch is obvious.
Flight cap/service cap: While not required, try to match the shade/weave of the trousers to the cap. AAFES MCSS no longer sells the shade 1625 doubleknit polyester service dress jacket but may have the flight cap/service cap available in that shade. (Last time I was at the Nellis MCSS, all that was available is 1620.) Be very aware there are three distinct pipings on the flight cap: blue piping for cadets, SM without grade and SM NCOs; silver and blue diamond ('zipper') piping for officers through colonel and full silver piping for generals. Don't get the wrong kind. For the service cap, all grades captain and below wear a plain black leather visor; officers from major throug colonel wear clouds and darts ('farts and darts') in a pattern of four (two per side) on the visor; generals wear 'farts and darts' in a pattern of six (three per side). Again, don't get the wrong one. When getting the trousers hemmed, ask for the 'West Point break'. The front of the trousers, when properly hemmed barely rest on the shoe while the back is about 7/8" lower. Trouser cuffs are NOT worn.
Shoes: plain black leather low quarter oxfords. These should be lace-up shoes, no buckles. Plain toed black wellington boots are acceptable (but not with a cowboy boot heel!). Socks are either black or dark blue.
Belt: blue web or elastic with silver roller buckle and tip. The elastic one has some give for comfort. When wearing the belt, be sure to align the edge of the shirt front, belt buckle and trouser fly; this is the 'gig line'.
Undershirt: plain white V-neck. Back in my days WIWOAD (When I Was On Active Duty) crew-neck T-shirts were acceptable for wear with the short sleeve shirt with an open collar, but they are not allowed now. You can wear a crew neck shirt, but you'll have to close the collar and wear a tie.
Tie: The current AF blue tie is polyester and has a slight herringbone pattern. You may see plain dark blue ties as well. The official tie is the herringbone.
Insignia: it is recommended that you place plain white cardboard or foam board backings cut to the shape of the nameplate and other insignia; without them the weight of the insignia will cause them to sag.
Ribbons are optional; it is an unwritten tradition in the Air Force that enlisted always wear their ribbons on the light blue shirt, while officers generally do not wear them.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 23, 2009, 07:36:54 AM
Well, tact has never been one of my strong points.
That said, I DID provide a link. Look at my post again. I failed to underline the link in my usual manner, but there's one there, underlined this time -
Quote from: SarDragon on July 23, 2009, 01:42:33 AMSecond - in the absence of a competent mentor, CAPM 39-1 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082203102943.pdf) is your friend. Pages 21, and 45 through 52 provide the information you seek. Look in the short sleeve shirt column for X's to indicate the necessary items.
It appears that we have different approaches to this issue, yours perhaps a little more friendly, mine more utilitarian. But, I have provided information, however sparse, and all you have done is deride us for our attitudes.
If I really had an "I know stuff and he doesn't" attitude, I would never have provided anything more than "look in CAPM 39-1" (no link) and left it at that. Now, let's try to continue to help this guy, instead of abetting a urination competition.
Agreed.
Wow, AlphaSigOU, great post! Would you mind if I used it at my unit while training new members?
DN
Don't forget to purchase a pair of shirt stays. They are used to fasten your shirt to your socks. This prevents your shirt from comming out of your pants. I don't think it is listed in 39-1 but I would highly recomend purchasing a pair of them.
Quote from: Chief2009 on July 23, 2009, 03:57:05 PM
Wow, AlphaSigOU, great post! Would you mind if I used it at my unit while training new members?
DN
Please do use it!
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 23, 2009, 11:25:33 AM
Flight cap/service cap:
Socks are either black or dark blue.
Last I checked the flight cap comes in a shade 1620 which will match the wool blend coat and trousers while the service cap is in a shade 1625 which is the 100% polyester material. As stated the coat and trousers must match but the cap does not. As far as socks go I was under the belief that only black socks are authorized. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 23, 2009, 04:50:53 AM
People, you cannot merely point people blindly to regulations...there is a lot to be said for proper guidance and mentoring for new members.
I have long pitied the cadets that come here for guidance and are constantly knocked down by people too annoyed by a newbie question to answer constructively or the uniform NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY that occasionally rears its head.
We need to start helping each other out, especially new people, or else all the self righteous posturing many of you put up is is no more than mindless rhetorical drivel.
And don't insult anyone's intelligence here with a "if you can't stand the fire, stay out of the kitchen" or "you don't have to read the posts if you don't agree" arguments. Simply help a brother or sister CAP airman out. Is that too much to ask? They come here for help and we throw up a wall of discourtesy.
Most would hopefully be loathed to act that way in front of a cadet or new senior. Shouldn't be different here.
SGT Eppler
Also something to consider, forums let people get quick answers. Sometimes the answer is available fast. My civilian job has me neck deep in city, county, state and federal law books and CFR's along with the load of .mil stuff I used to have to know. Give help if you can and show them where to find it. Act like a leader. If I new an answer to a question being asked and don't help, I am a burden here.
Quote from: Camas on July 23, 2009, 05:08:06 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 23, 2009, 11:25:33 AM
Flight cap/service cap:
Socks are either black or dark blue.
Last I checked the flight cap comes in a shade 1620 which will match the wool blend coat and trousers while the service cap is in a shade 1625 which is the 100% polyester material. As stated the coat and trousers must match but the cap does not. As far as socks go I was under the belief that only black socks are authorized. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. Black socks only, per AFI 36-2903 and CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: StopLoss on July 23, 2009, 01:16:58 AM
Class Bs?
My Army comes out in me from time to time as well.......
Welcome!!
Who still refers to the short sleeve blues as 1550s? [raises hand] ;D
BTW, guys, while you can surely "help" people via the Internet, I think you'd be hard-pressed to truly "mentor" someone via a long-distance medium like this.
(speaking strictly from my 16+ years of experience on CAP Internet-based mediums such as this august body and the old CAPTalk mailing list)
Quote from: StopLoss on July 23, 2009, 01:16:58 AM
Alright ... I effectively have no mentor, his interests are else where and I'm getting no uniform guidance. What is the minimum a Senior Member needs for his Class Bs?
AF blue pants
AF blue short sleeve shirt
dress shoes
black dress socks
?
?
?
?
Thanks in advance.
Why don't you just buy the required senior member CAP Distinctive uniform -- White Aviator Shirt & grey pants, black belt, black shoes, black shocks.
See: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M39_1_chap_4.pdf page 75 & page 83 Table 4-3.
This is the least costly uniform & it allows you the most flexibility regarding wear. e.g. grooming standards, no hat, no weight standards, no outer wear jacket standards. You can use the money saved by not buying an AF uniform with all the required hats/outer wear etc, and utilize it to buy the Blue BDU Field Uniform. So than you will have two uniforms that will meet CAP requirements with the maximum wear flexibility.
Of course IF you are a AF "wanna bee" than by all means spend your money on the AF style uniform ;D
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 05:06:12 PMOf course IF you are a AF "wanna bee" than by all means spend your money on the AF style uniform ;D
RM
So, in your opinion, any senior member who wears the AF style uniform is a "AF wanna be"?
Nice to know you think so highly of us. Of course I retired from the AF Reserve with 31 years, does that still make me a wanna be? >:(
Quote from: PHall on July 26, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 05:06:12 PMOf course IF you are a AF "wanna bee" than by all means spend your money on the AF style uniform ;D
RM
So, in your opinion, any senior member who wears the AF style uniform is a "AF wanna be"?
Nice to know you think so highly of us. Of course I retired from the AF Reserve with 31 years, does that still make me a wanna be? >:(
I'm wondering the same thing. Then again, I didn't really spend anything on my blues, only on the CAP specific insignia. All those blue items were left over from when I was Air Guard. In order to wear CAP specific uniforms, I would have actually had to spend a
lot more money.
Why do blues and BDU's equal "wanna be"? That opinion is starting to get on my nerves.
I would also have to disagree that the aviator combo is the "least costly". The golf shirt combo is probably the actual least costly. I have actually considered one. I'd have to buy grey pants though. All the pants I own are pretty much khaki.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 26, 2009, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: PHall on July 26, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 05:06:12 PM
So, in your opinion, any senior member who wears the AF style uniform is a "AF wanna be"?
Nice to know you think so highly of us. Of course I retired from the AF Reserve with 31 years, does that still make me a wanna be? >:(
I'm wondering the same thing. Then again, I didn't really spend anything on my blues, only on the CAP specific insignia. All those blue items were left over from when I was Air Guard. In order to wear CAP specific uniforms, I would have actually had to spend a lot more money.
Why do blues and BDU's equal "wanna be"? That opinion is starting to get on my nerves.
I would also have to disagree that the aviator combo is the "least costly". The golf shirt combo is probably the actual least costly. I have actually considered one. I'd have to buy grey pants though. All the pants I own are pretty much khaki.
The context of the original post was from a new senior member who didn't (and most likely) had no AF military service. All of the other postings were basically leaning the new member to the AF style blue uniform. I just gave him MY perspective. For MOST new CAP senior members the corporate avaiator shirt is the least expensive. I would discourage ANY new members in buying expensive uniforms until they are really sure that the CAP program is for them. No need being an expensive "wanna bee" right off from the start ;D
For those of you (us) that are retired or former AF/AFR/ANG that meet the standards, surely save yourself some money and wear what you have available IF you in fact want to maintain the appropriate military wear standards as far as weight, hair etc. (I guess you (and I) wouldn't be a "wanna be", you would be a "have (had) a bee" ;D)
BTW I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only military retiree (or for that matter other current military members) who has the same opinion about the senior member AF "wanna bees" in CAP.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 07:10:31 PMBTW I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only military retiree (or for that matter other current military members) who has the same opinion about the senior member AF "wanna bees" in CAP.
RM
You know, as long as they wear the AF style uniform properly, I could care less if they're a so called "AF wanna be".
And properly means meeting weight and grooming standards.
Did any of you guys ever think that maybe we non-prior service might just want to wear the Civil Air Patrol uniform because we want to be in the Civil Air Patrol?
I should point out that a USAF style uniform with CAP Distinctive devices is no longer a USAF uniform per se, but is a CAP one covered by CAP Manuals and Regulations.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 07:10:31 PMBTW I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only military retiree (or for that matter other current military members) who has the same opinion about the senior member AF "wanna bees" in CAP.
So, I spent two nights out this week and most of the weekend working on CAP business because I'm a wanna bee? Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 27, 2009, 12:25:59 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 26, 2009, 07:10:31 PMBTW I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only military retiree (or for that matter other current military members) who has the same opinion about the senior member AF "wanna bees" in CAP.
So, I spent two nights out this week and most of the weekend working on CAP business because I'm a wanna bee? Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Hmm, I guess we would have to ask what type of uniform were you wearing while you performed all of those CAP voluntary duties to see if you fit the definition ??? :) ;D
I personally don't really care IF someone is an AF "wanna bee" or not -- doesn't affect me working with them in CAP at all. I do chuckle to myself when I see this. (and I'm sure many of you know exactly what I am talking about).
I'm more concerned about the assigned missions being accomplished rather than what CAP uniform a member is wearing, whether it be a golf shirt or BDU's with spit shinned boots, etc.
Again with new senior members we should look at what will cost them the least amount of initial funds outlay. For most it is going to be the aviator shirt & that's all the regulation requires for a uniform, including working at any mission base functions. Nuff, said :angel:
RM
I was going to join a volunteer fire department, but didn't want to be called a firefighter wannabe. Thanks for saving me from that fate.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 27, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
I personally don't really care IF someone is an AF "wanna bee" or not -- doesn't affect me working with them in CAP at all.
Face it, pal ... you stuck your foot in your mouth on this one. ;D
Those of us who choose --
choose -- to wear the AF uniform are by no means "wanna-be"s. I was AD AF ... so were many of us. But those who weren't aren't necessarily "wanna-be"s. The few -- very few, I might add -- that really are such make it bad for the rest of us, I grant you.
Your blanket statement casts a wide net, but catches few of your prey.
Jack
I'm not a wanna-be, but you could call me a usta-bee! ::)
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 27, 2009, 03:10:21 PM
I'm not a wanna-be, but you could call me a usta-bee! ::)
Is that anything like a "has been" ? >:D
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 27, 2009, 03:35:46 PMIs that anything like a "has been" ? >:D
No, that's an 'expert': Where ex- is a has-been, spurt is a drip under pressure! ;D
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 27, 2009, 03:35:46 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 27, 2009, 03:10:21 PM
I'm not a wanna-be, but you could call me a usta-bee! ::)
Is that anything like a "has been" ? >:D
Hey, I feel like that statement sometimes.........
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 27, 2009, 03:10:21 PM
I'm not a wanna-be, but you could call me a usta-bee! ::)
Better than a never-wuz.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 23, 2009, 01:53:17 AM
If you are a Senior Member Without Grade (SMWOG), you wear silver metal CAP "cutouts" on the collar of your shirt, and you do not wear any epaulet sleeves - just leave your shoulders empty.
Further, if you are an SMWOG, the flight cap you wear is the enlisted type with the blue braid, not the silver.
Hey Eclipse... where did you get this? I have a new SM and that was my understanding too. I pulled out the 39-1 to show him and couldn't find it anywhere. Appreciate it... perhaps I was looking at the wrong version of the 39-1, what a surprise.
Also, Class A and B and then Utility is what they were called in the 80's when I was a cadet and then real AF. Old habits die hard but I really don't see an issue when people use it. As long as we know the official names for them, these have always been nicknames.
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 08, 2009, 05:44:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 23, 2009, 01:53:17 AM
If you are a Senior Member Without Grade (SMWOG), you wear silver metal CAP "cutouts" on the collar of your shirt, and you do not wear any epaulet sleeves - just leave your shoulders empty.
Further, if you are an SMWOG, the flight cap you wear is the enlisted type with the blue braid, not the silver.
Hey Eclipse... where did you get this?
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Page 41 & 43
2. Flight Cap: Senior members wear small double clutch back senior member cap device. Cadet NCOs
and airmen wear the cadet enlisted double clutch back cap device. Cadet officers wear miniature or
regular size metal grade insignia on the flight cap. Cap will not be crushed. Senior member officer
flight cap has silver and blue braid. All others wear flight cap with solid blue braid.
More clear...
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Page 51
Worn slightly to the wearer's right with
vertical crease of the cap in line with the
center of the forehead, in a straight line with
the nose. The cap extends approximately 1
inch from the eyebrows in the front. If not
worn, tuck under the belt on either side,
between first and second belt loops; cap will
not fold over belt. Cap has dark-blue colored
edge braid for cadets, senior member NCOs,
Airmen and senior members without grade;
silver and blue in a diamond pattern edge
braid for all senior member officers; and
silver-colored edge braid for general officers.
All shades and materials of cap are authorized
with any uniform combination. Top of cap
will not be crushed or made to form a peak in
the rear. Senior members wear metal satin
finish flight cap insignia. Cadet officers wear
metal grade insignia. Cadet NCOs and
Airmen wear metal flight cap insignia.
You can find it in 39-1 Lapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade.
:clap: Thank you for the assist...
Glad to be of help!
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 08, 2009, 05:44:52 PMAlso, Class A and B and then Utility is what they were called in the 80's when I was a cadet and then real AF. Old habits die hard but I really don't see an issue when people use it. As long as we know the official names for them, these have always been nicknames.
That terminology was just as wrong in the '80s as it is today.
We have long posts on getting the color right for the blues, and shorter posts on which hat is right for the non-officer folks, so why can't we use and teach the correct names for our uniform combinations? It would sure simplify things for our new members.
Is there a regulation that says "do not use any other names for a uniform combination"??
I know Air Force units (an an entire Air Reserve Base) that use A,B,C and D terminology.
It is only simplifying the situation by using that terminology.
I don't know why people are so hung up on this thing. There are more important things to be focusing on in CAP. (By the Way, CAP is not the military....local unit commanders can make up any words they wish to describe uniforms, as well as prescribe exactly what is to be worn)
Because if its not "right" it's "wrong". period.
Should it be the focus of your CAP career? No.
Should incorrect terminology be corrected when it comes up. Yes.
Oddly enough I was just at the gainesville (FL) Regional Airpoprt where a bunch of T-6's and T-1's had just landed. They were suck becuase of weather further west on the Florida Panhandel Mobile Bay area. They were talking about clothing, and ine Major said he brought class A uniform, but the other 12 pilots said they brought only class B and flight suits. So it looks like USAF is still calling the uniforms A, B, C, and D.
LOL - CAP correcting the USAF on what to call USAF uniforms because "its not right". Call the CAP uniforms anything you want but don't correct me for wearing my Class Bs to work in the late 70's.
This problem is part of a larger mentality that we are trying to reinforce. We have several groups of rules that we enforce because they are important to the organization. Our members are taught that adherence is important to maintain consistency in our operations.
Then we randomly, and seemingly capriciously, decide that we can refer to our uniforms by special, nonstandard nicknames because "that's what they've always been called". What an endorsement for consistency.
It also shouldn't matter what the AF uses. We're our organization, with our own uniform regulation. I seriously doubt that these designations actually appeared in the AF uniform regulation back then, but I'm willing to be proven otherwise.
Let's look at an example. Joey Bagodonuts joins CAP in Hispeed Composite Squadron, and learns all the proper terminology. Then he transfers to Outintheboonies Cadet Squadron, and is told that the UOD for the next meeting is Class Bs. He is understandably, and unfairly, clueless, because his old unit didn't teach it that way. He has nowhere to look it up, because these definitions are only verbal, and likely inconsistent between units.
That's why I, and others, have such heartburn over this. These convenient nicknames haven't been in any CAPM 39-1 I've ever seen, and I have copies going back to 1968.
I'm not sure I can explain it any better.
Quote from: Spike on August 09, 2009, 08:52:26 PMI know Air Force units (an an entire Air Reserve Base) that use A,B,C and D terminology.
I've heard of Class A and B. "Class C" is listed in 670-1, but I've never heard the term used in the Army. There is no "Class D" spelled out. So, where exactly is the Air Force Reserve reference to "Class D"? What exactly is a "Class D" uniform?
Quote from: Spike on August 09, 2009, 08:52:26 PMIt is only simplifying the situation by using that terminology.
Not really. Especially when using undefined "terminology".
Quote from: Spike on August 09, 2009, 08:52:26 PM....local unit commanders can make up any words they wish to describe uniforms
No, they can't. That's how you end up with an organization that has communication problems. It's the same concept as different people speaking different languages.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 10, 2009, 12:26:57 AMThat's why I, and others, have such heartburn over this. These convenient nicknames haven't been in any CAPM 39-1 I've ever seen, and I have copies going back to 1968.
They're not listed in the April 1949 Civil Air Patrol Manual, or the February 1944 Civil Air Patrol Handbook either.
Beginning to wonder if Civil Air Patrol has ever used uniform "class" terminology, or if it's just been a case of pretending the whole time.
I'm guessing that it got carried over verbally from the Army, and never went away. YMMV.
To further stir the hornets nest of the terminology police out there (said in complete satire)... >:D
If we drop the Class A, B, C, D or whatever... how do we differentiate between uniforms when we call the blue uniforms nothing but "Service Dress" as so many think is the only way of thought? Since there are several variances to this uniform, how do people know if they are to wear the service coat or not since that's what makes a Class B a Class A?
Again, the whole idea of Class A, B or C being nothing but a nickname for what version/form of uniform we are wearing, where is the harm? Really??? As long as people know its called the "Service Uniform" and what we are then doing is simplifying what exact flavor is expected for the UOD, its saving time and space being brief and using nicknames. My guess is, this is why the branches of service all do this. Just a guess mind you, I mean I've only been in CAP a total of 8 years with a 20+ year gap while I split my cadet and SM days with active duty AF and all. I think rather than jumping down people's throats every time they use the nickname perhaps we should just be more informative with new members, in the squadron and on this board, what the official names are versus what members have nicknamed them. Seems fair right?
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 10, 2009, 06:03:47 PM
If we drop the Class A, B, C, D or whatever... how do we differentiate between uniforms when we call the blue uniforms nothing but "Service Dress" as so many think is the only way of thought? Since there are several variances to this uniform, how do people know if they are to wear the service coat or not since that's what makes a Class B a Class A?
You tell them what to wear in more detail.
Service dress with jacket
Service dress, short sleeve, no tie
Service dress, long sleeve w/ tie
Not really much of a challenge...
I understand that of course... but when making up a weekly schedule with numerous columns, sometimes abbreviations do help. That's most like the source of how this all began. Brevity...
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 10, 2009, 06:27:11 PM
I understand that of course... but when making up a weekly schedule with numerous columns, sometimes abbreviations do help. That's most like the source of how this all began. Brevity...
Just say something like "blues" or "BDUs".
There's also a lot of disconnect on what "class" means what. "Class C" means something different to one person than it does to another. No branch of service even uses the term of "Class D", but some people have made up their own definition. Hence the problem.
There are terms that everyone knows, but when you make them up terms, that's where problems start, and then continue.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2009, 06:12:28 PM
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 10, 2009, 06:03:47 PM
If we drop the Class A, B, C, D or whatever... how do we differentiate between uniforms when we call the blue uniforms nothing but "Service Dress" as so many think is the only way of thought? Since there are several variances to this uniform, how do people know if they are to wear the service coat or not since that's what makes a Class B a Class A?
You tell them what to wear in more detail.
Service dress with jacket
Service dress, short sleeve, no tie
Service dress, long sleeve w/ tie
Not really much of a challenge...
Eclipse obviously doesn't know what
service dress is from the looks of that post.
Service dress is the service uniform combination that includes the coat. Class A's for you rebels.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 10, 2009, 07:51:06 PM
Just say something like "blues" or "BDUs".
Saying "blues" is just as bad as saying "Class B's." Each configuration of the service uniform has a proper name, and if you want your people in a specific uniform "blues" ain't gonna cut it.
;) Exactly...
Quote from: MIKE on August 10, 2009, 07:54:40 PMSaying "blues" is just as bad as saying "Class B's." Each configuration of the service uniform has a proper name, and if you want your people in a specific uniform "blues" ain't gonna cut it.
"Blues" will do just fine if you want people in some kind of blues. If you want them in service dress, you tell them: "wear service dress". If you want them in long sleeves, tell them that. Telling folks "Class B" isn't any clearer, because it covers a great deal. There are still specifics missing.
Now tell me something, Mike, if you're specifying a specific uniform combination, are you going to be doing heavy abbreviation on your directive? I'd hope not.
But back to other questions: What is a "Class A"?
What is a "Class B"?
What is a "Class C"?
What is a "Class D"?
I'm curious how many different answers will show up. I know the Army designations, but somehow I doubt the various opinions here will match.
A=Service Coat
B=Short/Long Sleeve w/o Coat
C=Utilities ie BDU's
D=No clue
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
A=Service Coat
B=Short/Long Sleeve w/o Coat
C=Utilities ie BDU's
D=No clue
OK, here's some sort of definition. Now, how do we get the other 48, 597 (±5,000) members to embrace and use that definition?
Until it's codified and published in an official directive, it shouldn't be used. This whole "class" thing is just as wrong as Hawk bling, first sergeant whistles, and boonie hats, and has no official basis that I can find.
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
A=Service Coat
The Army uses that, so I know it. Fairly consistent.
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
B=Short/Long Sleeve w/o Coat
OK, also consistent. To an extent. Is a tie worn with the short sleeve? What about ribbons/badges, or RDI/DUI?
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
C=Utilities ie BDU's
It could be. AR 670-1 states in Para 1-6. e that "Class C uniforms are the utility, field, hospital duty, food service, and other organizational uniforms."
If someone were to say "Class C", which uniform is that? It's not mentioned, but that includes a flightsuit. Context is important.
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AMD=No clue
Neither do I, but a claim was made in thread that there are AF Reserve units that use A,B,C, and D terminology. What does the "D" desegnator stand for?
Does it really simplify things if there are inconsistencies? And what purpose does it serve to use the terminology of the Army? We're not Army, we haven't been associated with them for decades. Why use their terms?
Quote from: SarDragon on August 11, 2009, 05:33:36 AM
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
A=Service Coat
B=Short/Long Sleeve w/o Coat
C=Utilities ie BDU's
D=No clue
OK, here's some sort of definition. Now, how do we get the other 48, 597 (±5,000) members to embrace and use that definition?
Until it's codified and published in an official directive, it shouldn't be used. This whole "class" thing is just as wrong as Hawk bling, first sergeant whistles, and boonie hats, and has no official basis that I can find.
Hold on there, there is lots of stuff that is CAP culture that is on codified in CAP regs. Things such as CAP meeting templates, the prohibition on the wear of a tie with short sleeve service dress, the blasphemy that results from people who wear service caps, posting on CAP related forums and a whole lot of other things that are as "CAP" as the three bladed propeller, but that cannot be found in regs.
There are many here that show righteous indignation about things they don't like that are not in the regs, but also show ambivalence to or even support for things they
do like that are subject to the same "its not in the regs" conundrum.
QuoteHold on there, there is lots of stuff that is CAP culture that is on codified in CAP regs.
Should that read "not codified"?
We're talking about antique, outdated, and undefined terminology that hasn't had any official status since at least 1968. Until it becomes such, it shouldn't be used, because of the inconsistencies involved. The other examples I gave have similar issues.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 11, 2009, 06:49:37 AM
QuoteHold on there, there is lots of stuff that is CAP culture that is on codified in CAP regs.
Should that read "not codified"?
We're talking about antique, outdated, and undefined terminology that hasn't had any official status since at least 1968. Until it becomes such, it shouldn't be used, because of the inconsistencies involved. The other examples I gave have similar issues.
You might want to read the rest of it. I can see the sarcasm.
As Sparky points out, there is a lot of "Everyone knows that" which usually translates to "That's what I want".
Quote from: SarDragon on August 11, 2009, 06:49:37 AM
QuoteHold on there, there is lots of stuff that is CAP culture that is on codified in CAP regs.
Should that read "not codified"?
We're talking about antique, outdated, and undefined terminology that hasn't had any official status since at least 1968. Until it becomes such, it shouldn't be used, because of the inconsistencies involved. The other examples I gave have similar issues.
Never forget that printed policy and practice seldom jive in totality. Recent legislation in our Congress shows that to be true (most Senators and Representatives don't even read everything they vote on). It is likely 60% of the things you, Sir, and I do are likely against some code, ordinance, State/Commonwealth law or even those of the National government. Many times the "write one thing, do another" goes on and is only brought to life during times of blatant serious and public violation.
Also, remember that the goal of communication is based on relaying the mental image in a persons mind to that of another. If someone says "class A" or the like and another person knows what has been said, has not the above been satisfied? People new to CAP are not inborn with CAP regs in their mental lexicon of knowledge.
Furthermore, if it were not for adobe PDF files, "cut and paste" and certain search functions inherent in modern computer information systems...it would not be possible for some of the regs to be so instantaneously accessed.
Odds are, most CAP officers do not have ALL the REGS memorized, I doubt many active duty types do for their published instructions as well.
Well, I think I'm done peeing into the wind.
Y'all can have more fun without me.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 11, 2009, 07:15:00 AM
Well, I think I'm done peeing into the wind.
Y'all can have more fun without me.
Couldn't address the issues...eh? Pity, I was hoping you would make an argument that would sway me into thinking the use of uniform "classes" posed a clear and present "danger" to the future of CAP.
Instead you have proven the whole thing as it really is...a NON-ISSUE. The terminology and "slang" of the Civil Air Patrol exist...despite any personal pet-peeves.
Just because it's widespread, that doesn't make it "right". I think I clearly explained my reasoning, and the impact of the issue on the organization. Further discourse seems futile, since I'm probably at the point where I will only be repeating myself.
Like I said, have fun without me.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 11, 2009, 07:50:09 AM
Just because it's widespread, that doesn't make it "right". I think I clearly explained my reasoning, and the impact of the issue on the organization. Further discourse seems futile, since I'm probably at the point where I will only be repeating myself.
Like I said, have fun without me.
What I don't understand is why this bother's you so. it seems trivial...like people having a debate over that I should be called "Joe Ely" or "Jose Ely" or even "Sparky," in then end it is the same person.
Service dress and "Class A" means something to some people and, while it may not be correct, it is what they have come to call it. I was referring to that combination in Jr High School, before I even heard of CAP or of the nomenclature of the Army as "Class A." That meant you had a formal jacket and tie on. I didn't hear it in military parlance until I was in high school, late high school, and a friend of mine's father had been Army and referred to that uniform as Class A.
I want to understand why you choose to make this an issue...understanding so might lead me to better understand your frustrations and learn more about what those issues are important. I suspect you think people refer to it thus because they want to be somehow "hardcore" and use that jargon to appear somehow more "military."
It hinders good communication.
On more than a few occasions, I have been with a group of cadets from more than one unit, and heard and seen confusion when one cadet talks about Class As, and other cadets ask, "What's that?" I have seen the same thing in groups of SMs.
When cadets go to encampment, they are given standards to follow. The concept of standards is reinforced all week. Sadly, these standards vary from wing to wing, and even from year to year within the same wing. But the concept is still there. Now you, and others, seem to advocate the perpetuation of a non-standard nomenclature, that has never really been a standard since I joined CAP.
"We've always done it that way", has, IMHO, never been a good reason for doing something. Taken to extremes, it has killed people in the aviation arena among others, so why encourage that attitude in the first place? It may be a tough nut to chew, but change is not impossible. It does, however, only come about when there is willingness for it to happen.
FWIW, I was taught that "Deltas"were "Organizational clothing" such as cooks whites, mechanics coveralls, corpsman's scrubs, etc.
That having been said, I tend to agree that we should call them by thier proper name to avoid confusion.
Quote from: Lt Domke on August 11, 2009, 04:55:21 AM
A=Service Coat
B=Short/Long Sleeve w/o Coat
C=Utilities ie BDU's
D=No clue
WIWAC, our squadron used those designators, but it broke down like this:
A = Blues w/ Service Coat
B = Blues w/ Tie (short or long sleeve)
C = Blues w/o Tie
We didn't have Class D, we just called the BDUs, BDUs.
We've now had at least 4 different explanations of what Uniform A, B, C, and D are. We've also seen that they are in no way documented for everyone nationally in a standard CAP reference or publication.
And, people still think it's stupid when I explain how we came to have NIMS and ICS so that we could share a common language at emergency/disaster/incident scenes...
Thom Hamilton
Here we go. Class D: http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/ww2/uniform%20classes.htm
Part of CAPs modification of this probably comes more from the Marine nomenclature however. i.e service "C".
(http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/images/ww2/crowder/p043b.gif)
Note the requirement with class "D" to button the top button and wear your grandmother's gardening hat
I bet everyone knows what "Class Six" is though!
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 11, 2009, 11:56:54 AM
WIWAC, our squadron used those designators, but it broke down like this:
A = Blues w/ Service Coat
B = Blues w/ Tie (short or long sleeve)
C = Blues w/o Tie
We didn't have Class D, we just called the BDUs, BDUs.
That's how our squadron labeled them in the late 80's
Quote from: Spike on August 11, 2009, 04:20:11 PM
I bet everyone knows what "Class Six" is though!
;D Race ya to it! ;D
Quote from: Spike on August 11, 2009, 04:20:11 PM
I bet everyone knows what "Class Six" is though!
I'll bet ya don't. :)
WIWAC back 67-71, USAF (and CAP IIRC) had uniform combinations. Combination 1 wasn't used (I believe it refered to a then-obsolete uniform). Combination 2 was dress blues. Combination 3 was 1505s or 505s. Combination 4 may have been the old blue shirt w/tie that matched the pants (hazy on that). I'm not sure if there was a combination 5.
Returning to uniform combinations IMO would be useful.
From the 1968 CAPM 39-1:
Combination 1: Lightweight and heavyweight blue service uniform
Combination 2: Heavyweight blue service uniform with blue flannel shirt
Combination 3: Heavyweight blue service trousers with blue flannel shirt and lightweight blue wool/polyester service trousers with blue wool/polyester shirt
Combination 4: Tan service uniform
Combination 5: Tan service shirt with bernuda shorts
Combination 6: The lightweight and heavyweight blue service uniforms may be worn with white shirt and black bow tie as a semiformal dress uniform
Can someone please cite for me where in CAPM 39-1 it describes a "class B" uniform?
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 12, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
Can someone please cite for me where in CAPM 39-1 it describes a "class B" uniform?
The same place the "green weenie," "wheel caps," "zoom bags" and other such terminology that are commonly used in CAP are.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 12, 2009, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 12, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
Can someone please cite for me where in CAPM 39-1 it describes a "class B" uniform?
The same place the "green weenie," "wheel caps," "zoom bags" and other such terminology that are commonly used in CAP are.
Let's not forget the oft-denigrated term "cover" for your hat, which is mostly a term from the Navy and
gets some people off their tree when you use it.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 12, 2009, 03:35:16 PMThe same place the "green weenie," "wheel caps," "zoom bags" and other such terminology that are commonly used in CAP are.
Only one of those terms is even unique to CAP. The "green weenie" I've actually only ever seen used on boards. I've never heard it spoken, seen it written, or in any way referenced on anything other than Captalk or Cadetstuff.
"Wheel cap" probably predates CAP. I've heard it referenced a few times by members of almost every branch of service. I've heard it called a "bus driver hat" more often than "wheel cap". Amusing in a way, considering that most cadets have probably never seen a bus driver wearing one.
"Zoom bag" was also not commonly referenced in the Air Force, most times I've heard it, it was used in a derogatory manner. Same thing with "green bag". Then again, I wasn't aviation in the Air Force.
"Class B" as a specific terminology is typically Army. The Marines use similar terms such as "Dress B", or "Service A", although I've heard them termed as "bravos" or "alphas" before.
Either way, it's best to teach and stick with terms that we have listed in published regulations. We do that, and noone can ever say that they can't find the terms. It keeps things far simpler. We have enough problems as it is communicating with each other, there's really no reason to compound that.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2009, 04:47:30 PMLet's not forget the oft-denigrated term "cover" for your hat, which is mostly a term from the Navy and gets some people off their tree when you use it.
I don't get up in arms about that one, I just don't see the point. Why not just call it a "hat" or a "cap". It's easier and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about when you say that. Not so with "cover".
The one that does annoy me is "blouse" when referring to a BDU shirt. It doesn't come from within CAP at all. Why use it?
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 12, 2009, 05:18:26 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2009, 04:47:30 PMLet's not forget the oft-denigrated term "cover" for your hat, which is mostly a term from the Navy and gets some people off their tree when you use it.
I don't get up in arms about that one, I just don't see the point. Why not just call it a "hat" or a "cap". It's easier and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about when you say that. Not so with "cover".
For one thing, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". If for example, you have a majority of your activities on a Navy base, their terminology tends to creep into your lexicon. Since we tend to gather members from all the uniformed services, as well as the PD and FD, this kind of "newspeak" is just natural.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 12, 2009, 05:18:26 PM
The one that does annoy me is "blouse" when referring to a BDU shirt. It doesn't come from within CAP at all. Why use it?
Actually, the BDU "shirt" is a "coat" per the label, so which is more confusing to the average civilian?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2009, 05:37:07 PMActually, the BDU "shirt" is a "coat" per the label, so which is more confusing to the average civilian?
Good point. The manual uses the term "BDU shirt" when it comes to what goes on it, so that's what I go with. I don't know anyone that wouldn't know what "shirt" means.
I can understand, to a point, if local environment terminology might get used to explain to the "locals" what you mean. But how is it justified if there are no Navy or Marine corps personnel within hundreds of miles of you, and you don't interact with them?
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 12, 2009, 06:03:15 PM
I can understand, to a point, if local environment terminology might get used to explain to the "locals" what you mean. But how is it justified if there are no Navy or Marine corps personnel within hundreds of miles of you, and you don't interact with them?
I suppose it doesn't - but at some point it simply is, what it is, and we should all get over it.
People using an incorrect term, especially one that create confusion, should be actively corrected, but if they persist, whatever.
The class-A,B,C thing is a problem because no one really knows what it means - Class A, sure, B, maybe. I have no idea by C (and only a vague, disturbing, image of "6").
Common use terms like "cover" "blouse" aren't unique to CAP, Google them, its all over, and if you tell someone to put on their "cover", or button their blouse, odds are there won't be much, if any confusion.
Quote from: Eclipse
I suppose it doesn't - but at some point it simply is, what it is, and we should all get over it.
People using an incorrect term, especially one that create confusion, should be actively corrected, but if they persist, whatever.
That is the best approach. No matter how hard anyone tries to get everyone to use the official names for things, nicknames and slang are going to creep in, no matter what the source. It's only natural and happens everywhere, not just in CAP.
In CAP, we get people from all the different services, different civilian occupations, different age groups, and occasionally other countries. There is no way everyone is going to have the same frames of reference.
This even happens in the military, and they have the advantage of processing their members through an intensive indoctrination.
Sure, try to correct things, but don't have a stroke if it doesn't work. :o
Quote from: SarDragon on August 12, 2009, 05:50:45 AM
From the 1968 CAPM 39-1:
Combination 1: Lightweight and heavyweight blue service uniform
Combination 2: Heavyweight blue service uniform with blue flannel shirt
Combination 3: Heavyweight blue service trousers with blue flannel shirt and lightweight blue wool/polyester service trousers with blue wool/polyester shirt
Combination 4: Tan service uniform
Combination 5: Tan service shirt with bernuda shorts
Combination 6: The lightweight and heavyweight blue service uniforms may be worn with white shirt and black bow tie as a semiformal dress uniform
I was close! Not bad for 41 years. ;D