OK. CAP members are civilians, and, as such are ordinarily ineligible for USAF devices. However, CAP members can take various USAF courses, and earn Journeyman/Craftsman ratings in various fields, which could conceivably make us eligible for certain badges. So, are CAP members eligible to earn badges from the USAF?
No.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 03, 2009, 03:13:26 AM
No.
Not exactly.
CAP chaplains actually wear the USAF chaplain's badge ... with the approval/concurrence of the USAF Chaplain Corps.
Very same badge.
If stuff like that floats your boat you should have joined the Coast Guard Auxiliary... with a capital "A". I don't think you will see this in CAP anytime soon... auxiliary with a lower-case "a".
Everybody just got CGUC's... and can earn other unit/team awards etc, and the Boat Force Operations Insignia, along with other non-bling benefits of being much more closely associated with ones parent service. Not a major factor in me joining, but like I said... whatever floats your boat.
This is one area where CAP (USAFAux) and the USCGAux are very different. While there are some AF distance learning courses that CAP members can take, they can't do the courses that lead to AF badges, ribbons, etc. I think the last time CAP members were awarded military awards was during WWII.
The USCGAux is a very different story as CGAux members are allowed to attend USCG "C Schools" and various other CG training. Throughout the course of their service in the CGAux, they can be awarded not only CGAux ribbons and badges, but also USCG ribbons/awards. It seems that they are much more integrated and appreciated by their parent-service.
Granted, I'm still very new in the CGAux and so this is just what I've gathered from reading/research, and what I've seen/heard at my local flotilla. If I am incorrect about this, please do correct me. I'm not trying to start the debate as to which organization is better- they both have their strong points and their share of negative issues. I'm just focusing on which Auxiliary can participate in more parent-service training and be awarded actual parent-service ribbons/awards.
Edit: Oops... I just read the above post. I guess the same thought came to both of our minds.
I was just asking since I am planning to take the USAF PAO course, and a few other USAF courses. I'll just have to settle for college credit... (And, the nearest AUX flotilla is a ways away from me- and I can't really swim...(I did assist an AUX officer with a find of sorts, though...he lost a dental thing that I found for him...))
Quote from: Orville_third on July 03, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
I was just asking since I am planning to take the USAF PAO course, and a few other USAF courses. I'll just have to settle for college credit... (And, the nearest AUX flotilla is a ways away from me- and I can't really swim...(I did assist an AUX officer with a find of sorts, though...he lost a dental thing that I found for him...))
I'm not 100% sure if CAP members still take the USAF PAO course. I read something about only the CAP PAO course being offered now, but like I said, I'm not 100% sure about this. You can take a variety of other courses like Squadron Officer School, Staff College, War College, and for the most part you will get credit if you are also in the military, and in some cases, college credits.
As for swimming... Actually, (that I know of) none of the CGAux jobs involve swimming as I read somewhere that Auxiliarists cannot be rescue divers, etc. Likewise, while there are some on-the-water operations, there are tons of jobs that are on dry land. So, don't count the CGAux out just because of swimming.
You can take the Air Force Career Development Courses, but, that does not qualify you in that AFSC and thus you can not earn any Air Force Specialty Identification Badges.
Most AFSC's have training requirements in addition to the CDC's that must be completed before you are awarded that AFSC and the Badges are awarded to show what career field you're in and what training level you are at.
Officially CG Aux members are not allowed to enter the water to rescue anyone. That being said, I don't know a single Auxie who would hesitate to break that rule if they thought that they could successfully save someone's life.
Our squadron supports space shuttle operations during one of the landing Ops I had a long conversation with two young Airman who are the same AFSC that I was. My job 33 years ago was to do the initial Hazmat response during Launch operations wearing a Scott air pack. These guys had their Scott air pack with them but had no real experience in a Hypergol incident. I have decided to redo my AFSC course as a review and offer myself up to the section during landing operations in a dual mission response (not wearing a Scott air pack) that stuff is left to the younger canary. But I did do air monitoring in the air 33 years ago.
As for the insignia that goes along with the AFSC we can wear what we earned on active duty, National Guard, or reserve status.
I'd like to wear the Services specialty badge on blues, but at the time I was on AD that badge did not exist. So I don't wear it.
I don't see any reason why CAP members shouldn't be able to earn relevant AF specialty badges provided that the criteria fall within the realm of what CAP members are allowed to do and assuming that CAP members have a chance to access relevant courses. I'm not saying that this is possible under current AF/CAP regulations, but rather that it is something that that should be considered for some specialties. I've no clue which ones might be possible in that situation, but specialties like Public Affairs and Historian would seem to fall in that category.
Do you really think that doing a on-line course actually quallifies you in a USAF Speciality??? USAF training is NOT CAP training. You actually have to spend a lot of time training with a supervisor/trainer. And the OJT is not an hour a week for a year but at least 40 hrs a week for a year.
Quote from: Short Field on July 03, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Do you really think that doing a on-line course actually qualifies you in a USAF Specialty??? USAF training is NOT CAP training. You actually have to spend a lot of time training with a supervisor/trainer. And the OJT is not an hour a week for a year but at least 40 hrs a week for a year.
USAF Training is not CAP training. FINALLY, someone acknowledges that were talking "apples and oranges" here.
It is obvious that CAP and the USAF/USAFR have totally different schema in the execution of their missions.
Now, maybe we can start to develop CAP policy based on CAP needs, issues and procedure instead of trying to Graft the USAF on to an organization fundamentally different.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 07:03:28 PM
I don't see any reason why CAP members shouldn't be able to earn relevant AF specialty badges provided that the criteria fall within the realm of what CAP members are allowed to do and assuming that CAP members have a chance to access relevant courses. I'm not saying that this is possible under current AF/CAP regulations, but rather that it is something that that should be considered for some specialties. I've no clue which ones might be possible in that situation, but specialties like Public Affairs and Historian would seem to fall in that category.
They would seem to, but they don't. There is a great deal involved in an airman being AFSC qualified. Civil Air Patrol members don't get that level or duration of training. It requires a lot more than what amounts to a few weeks a year (which is what our specialty track training amounts to). If you want to take the AFIADL (or whatever it is this week) course, that's great, but it's not the same as attending tech school.
Did I say what we did now qualified us? No. Just that we may want to consider it for other specialties like we already have for CAP Chaplains. Do we need CAP missile techs? Of course not. But, if there are some AF specialties that are directly comparable to CAP specialties, it is worth exploring the possibilities. It all depends on exactly what the qualification requirements are.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 07:42:43 PMDid I say what we did now qualified us? No.
No, you didn't, said that Public Affairs and Historian seem to fall into a similar category, and they don't.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 07:42:43 PMJust that we may want to consider it for other specialties like we already have for CAP Chaplains.
Chaplains are unique in that a CAP chaplain has directly equivalent requirements to the military requirements.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 07:42:43 PMBut, if there are some AF specialties that are directly comparable to CAP specialties, it is worth exploring the possibilities.
With the exception of chaplain, there are none. Therefore, there are no possibilities to explore.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 07:42:43 PMIt all depends on exactly what the qualification requirements are.
For most specialties, as far as the Air Force is concerned, an
in-residence technical school ranging from 6 weeks to over two years. That's for the initial badge.
Before someone throws it out there, doctors, lawyers, nurses, chaplains, etc are professional commisions and follow a different acquisition path. All of our related specialties of those type have badges.
QuoteChaplains are unique in that a CAP chaplain has directly equivalent requirements to the military requirements.
QuoteTherefore, there are no possibilities to explore.
Obviously there are absolutely no parallels between anything anyone in the AF does (except Chaplains) and CAP does, so I was horribly mistaken in thinking that it even deserved a little bit of thought. It would just be plain silly to think that there might be existing AF training materials or courses that might apply to CAP or that a lowly CAP volunteer could manage something as demanding as I am sure the badge requirements are for Public Affairs or Historian. Of course the AF would not even want to think about training CAP members to do certain things the AF way or that they might think it would be of use to them. My mistake.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 09:15:03 PM
QuoteChaplains are unique in that a CAP chaplain has directly equivalent requirements to the military requirements.
QuoteTherefore, there are no possibilities to explore.
Obviously there are absolutely no parallels between anything anyone in the AF does (except Chaplains) and CAP does, so I was horribly mistaken in thinking that it even deserved a little bit of thought. It would just be plain silly to think that there might be existing AF training materials or courses that might apply to CAP or that a lowly CAP volunteer could manage something as demanding as I am sure the badge requirements are for Public Affairs or Historian. Of course the AF would not even want to think about training CAP members to do certain things the AF way or that they might think it would be of use to them. My mistake.
Most military technical training lecture segments accompanied by supervised practical training (lab work). Most of the tech schools I attended had at least 33% lab work. The closest CAP analog I can think of right now is BCUT/ACUT, where we have a hands-on session after the classroom segment.
Attempting to use AF training materials outside that environment would, IMHO, be a waste of time, since the lab segment(s) would be missing.
YMMV.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2009, 09:15:03 PM
It would just be plain silly to think that there might be existing AF training materials or courses that might apply to CAP or that a lowly CAP volunteer could manage something as demanding as I am sure the badge requirements are for Public Affairs or Historian.
Most of the senior USAF historians are civilians with at least a master's degree. The NCOs in the career field are all cross-trainees from other AFSCs with at least a 5 skill level. Entry into the public affairs career field requires completion of the public affairs course - 60 classroom days.
True, most CAP members would likely be unable to get through some USAF training courses, as it would require OJT. Still, the USAF PAO Officer's course is recommended for CAP members to take, if they wish, and a CAP PAO does have some similar tasks to a USAF PAO.
Conceivably, some CAP members would have the experience to take certain USAF courses on their own, even if it would not specifically benefit their work in CAP. (USAF Distance Learning Courses are good for college credit.)
As to an earlier post, according to what I've heard, it's the CAP PAO Technician exam that's being temporarily witheld, due to a drastic need for updating.
Finally, the AFHRA courses could conceivably be taken by CAP Historians, but they would have to jump through a lot of hoops to do so. In addition, they are classroom courses.
Quote from: DBlair on July 03, 2009, 03:40:31 AM
Quote from: Orville_third on July 03, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
I was just asking since I am planning to take the USAF PAO course, and a few other USAF courses. I'll just have to settle for college credit... (And, the nearest AUX flotilla is a ways away from me- and I can't really swim...(I did assist an AUX officer with a find of sorts, though...he lost a dental thing that I found for him...))
I'm not 100% sure if CAP members still take the USAF PAO course. I read something about only the CAP PAO course being offered now, but like I said, I'm not 100% sure about this. You can take a variety of other courses like Squadron Officer School, Staff College, War College, and for the most part you will get credit if you are also in the military, and in some cases, college credits.
As for swimming... Actually, (that I know of) none of the CGAux jobs involve swimming as I read somewhere that Auxiliarists cannot be rescue divers, etc. Likewise, while there are some on-the-water operations, there are tons of jobs that are on dry land. So, don't count the CGAux out just because of swimming.
Just a quick correction here regarding swim operations: We (CGAux) do have auxiliary divers working along with gold side.
Also working on observer training at a CG Air station. Augmenting a cutter underway? Absolutely! Do you speak a foreign language? There are deployment opportunities. Weapons? You bet! We have auxiliary range masters and trainers for the gold side. You might be surprised at what the CG Auxiliary is doing these days....
QuoteJust a quick correction here regarding swim operations: We (CGAux) do have auxiliary divers working along with gold side.
An update to the correction -- this is only a pilot project in the CG Aux and is only done in a few Districts. A few years ago they were planning for a national roll-out, but other than an Aug 2006 update I can't find anything about it on the national website.
Having experience in three Air Force specialities, I can honestly say that the training a CAP member receives, even in Public Affairs, isn't close to what I did in the 9 years I served in this career field. Perhaps, the real issue is the quality, number and style of the current CAP speciality badges...perhaps another Vanguard conspiracy! I sometimes think that the badges should be redesigned similar to the AF badges and minimized to a limited number. I will say, however, that it is possible for certain CAP members to earn AF ribbons. Years ago, CAP members were allowed to qualify on AR-16 at the Air Reserve Base in Ohio. Those that qualified were entitled and awarded the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.
Quote from: flyboy1 on July 04, 2009, 03:52:42 PM
Having experience in three Air Force specialities, I can honestly say that the training a CAP member receives, even in Public Affairs, isn't close to what I did in the 9 years I served in this career field. Perhaps, the real issue is the quality, number and style of the current CAP speciality badges...perhaps another Vanguard conspiracy! I sometimes think that the badges should be redesigned similar to the AF badges and minimized to a limited number. I will say, however, that it is possible for certain CAP members to earn AF ribbons. Years ago, CAP members were allowed to qualify on AR-16 at the Air Reserve Base in Ohio. Those that qualified were entitled and awarded the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.
I say, just take pride in the work and training done in CAP and not ashamed of it.
If one fulfills CAP training requirements, and they happen to include USAF courses via correspondence...aren't these in fact Civil Air Patrol met criteria and not USAF?
Small arms expert will not at all help in the execution of CAP missions. In fact, it would be out of the realm of the regs to carry firearms to most, if not all, CAP ES missions.
My questioning is not to belittle the USAF, it's training or its badges, but rather to point out that CAP distinctive badges should be worn on CAP uniforms for completing CAP criteria. If one earned these badges while in the service of the USAF, that is a horse of a different color.
Quote from: flyboy1 on July 04, 2009, 03:52:42 PMPerhaps, the real issue is the quality, number and style of the current CAP speciality badges...perhaps another Vanguard conspiracy!
How is that related to whether or not a CAP member can earn USAF badges?
Quote from: flyboy1 on July 04, 2009, 03:52:42 PMI sometimes think that the badges should be redesigned similar to the AF badges and minimized to a limited number.
In other words, if CAP members can't get real Air Force badges, then we'll go for the faux Air Force badges. What is so wrong about the ones we have?
Quote from: flyboy1 on July 04, 2009, 03:52:42 PMI will say, however, that it is possible for certain CAP members to earn AF ribbons. Years ago, CAP members were allowed to qualify on AR-16 at the Air Reserve Base in Ohio. Those that qualified were entitled and awarded the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.
What you should have said is that it used to be possible for CAP members to earn a SMEM ribbon. Just because people were able to get one in the past does not mean they can now. Air Medals were awarded back in the '40's and '50's to Civil Air Patrol airmen, but nowadays it doesn't happen. True in the past does not equal true in the present.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 04, 2009, 05:10:24 PMI say, just take pride in the work and training done in CAP and not ashamed of it.
Agreed, wholeheartedly.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 04, 2009, 05:10:24 PMIf one fulfills CAP training requirements, and they happen to include USAF courses via correspondence...aren't these in fact Civil Air Patrol met criteria and not USAF?
I hadn't thought of it that way, but I fully agree with the reasoning.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 04, 2009, 05:10:24 PMSmall arms expert will not at all help in the execution of CAP missions. In fact, it would be out of the realm of the regs to carry firearms to most, if not all, CAP ES missions.
Agreed. It's pretty much added fruit salad.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 04, 2009, 05:10:24 PMMy questioning is not to belittle the USAF, it's training or its badges, but rather to point out that CAP distinctive badges should be worn on CAP uniforms for completing CAP criteria.
At present, the only badges I'm authorized from CAP are specialty track badges. I wear them. With pride in the accomplishment. Did I spend the same amount of time getting them as it took for the military badges? No, but as far as I'm concerned, it still shows accomplishment. I'm glad to have accomplished something in CAP.
CAP badges are not inferior to military ones, just different. Different accomplishments, different missions, so we we should have different insignia. Military badges indicate military accomplishments, CAP badges show CAP accomplishments.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2009, 05:33:14 PM
CAP badges are not inferior to military ones, just different. Different accomplishments, different missions, so we we should have different insignia. Military badges indicate military accomplishments, CAP badges show CAP accomplishments.
Well said, that was what I was trying to say...but words got in the way (regards to Debbie Gibson).
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 04, 2009, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2009, 05:33:14 PM
CAP badges are not inferior to military ones, just different. Different accomplishments, different missions, so we we should have different insignia. Military badges indicate military accomplishments, CAP badges show CAP accomplishments.
Well said, that was what I was trying to say...but words got in the way (regards to Debbie Gibson).
Great minds think alike, eh, brother? That's the benefit of a good team, we know what the others are thinking.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 04, 2009, 03:35:32 PM
QuoteJust a quick correction here regarding swim operations: We (CGAux) do have auxiliary divers working along with gold side.
An update to the correction -- this is only a pilot project in the CG Aux and is only done in a few Districts. A few years ago they were planning for a national roll-out, but other than an Aug 2006 update I can't find anything about it on the national website.
Any chance this is happening in the 7th District?
Quote from: sandman on July 04, 2009, 03:25:20 PM
Also working on observer training at a CG Air station. Augmenting a cutter underway? Absolutely! Do you speak a foreign language? There are deployment opportunities. Weapons? You bet! We have auxiliary range masters and trainers for the gold side. You might be surprised at what the CG Auxiliary is doing these days....
And don't forget.... http://www.healthandsafety.auxnaco.org/
Quote from: DBlair on July 06, 2009, 02:42:48 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 04, 2009, 03:35:32 PM
QuoteJust a quick correction here regarding swim operations: We (CGAux) do have auxiliary divers working along with gold side.
An update to the correction -- this is only a pilot project in the CG Aux and is only done in a few Districts. A few years ago they were planning for a national roll-out, but other than an Aug 2006 update I can't find anything about it on the national website.
Any chance this is happening in the 7th District?
There may be already. Sure would rather go diving in 7 than 17.
I'm a little upset- the USAF has discontinued the PAO Officers course and the History of the USAF course. Oddly enough, the CAP PAO Technician course, which I had heard last year would be discontinued, is still listed...
(One non-USAF weird thing. I'm trying to get my college degree, and while USAF History would not be necessary for said degree, it would be fun to take. The American Council on Education (ACE) evaluates military courses for college credit. According to them, the CAP Senior Officer's Course equates to two lower-level semester hours in Communications, one lower-level semester hours in leadership, and two upper-level semester hours in military history. The history of Airpower wasn't good for any due to the "limited, specialized nature of the course."
In case you want to look through the USAF courses (or USCG, or any others you may have taken) to find some creditworthy ones, go to:
http://www.militaryguides.acenet.edu/ )
(In case you were wondering:
USAF Squadron Officer School is good for three upper-level semester hours in managerial communications, and three upper-level semester hours in national security studies and military strategy
Air Command and Staff College is worth 6 graduate-level semester hours in military history, 3 in regional studies, 6 in defense resources management, and 6 in national and international securities studies.
Air War College is worth 6graduate-level semester hours in military history and strategy, 3 in regional studies, 6 in defense resource management, and 12 in defense policy/national and international security.)
They're unlikely to discontinue the CAP PAO course until they have something to replace it with otherwise it would leave a lot of people unable to advance in the pao specialty track.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 14, 2009, 02:30:03 AM
They're unlikely to discontinue the CAP PAO course until they have something to replace it with otherwise it would leave a lot of people unable to advance in the pao specialty track.
I actually heard they would be issuing waivers in between then and later. In addition, I had heard that things like the PAO academies would count as the equivalent of said exam...
Quote from: Orville_third on July 14, 2009, 02:39:26 AMI actually heard they would be issuing waivers in between then and later. In addition, I had heard that things like the PAO academies would count as the equivalent of said exam...
"They" have been saying the same thing about the CAP Officer course, it says otherwise here: PD News (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/latest_pd_news.cfm)
Don't believe everything you hear.