Not necessarily CAP related, however, I am researching the FLIR Talon for possible purchase. Since there are many of us here with a wide range of experience, I thought I might try and tap into it. Do any of you have experience with it? Military or Coast Guard? I have a list of responses from other sources with the typical, "Ive heard......." Nor do I need a list of other suggestions. I Don't mean to come across as blunt.
I've already talked to FLIR, just seeing if anyone has any personal experiences. Im specifically wanting to know how well it performs at ranges of 2-3 miles as a long range surveillance tool.
Be careful with how you intend to use it. SAR wouldn't be a problem, but CN would. This is why ARCHER does near-IR and near-UV (and everything in between). Its all within the visible spectrum.
There's some piece of case law that requires law enforcement to use only the visible spectrum. I wish I could quote you more specifics.
Minnesota Wing had a FLIR system mounted out of the baggage compartment door on a Skyhawk. I believe they ran into STC / field approval issues and that killed the program. You'll want to watch out for the same -- it looks to me like the Talon FLIR is mounted on public use aircraft which have MUCH more liberal installation requirements. Public use deserves a thread all of its own...
Wildland fire folks would love to have easily-accessible FLIR aircraft to map the fire(s) at night. So I hope you can make this happen; please share!
Our helicopters are equipped with the FLIR Ultra 8500's. And our airplane already carries a Gyrocam DNV. Its already STC'd with the with the arm to carry it.
Im pretty well versed in the area of using a FLIR for surveillance. We use it pretty regular. As far as the case law, I get training on that stuff pretty regular. The courts are still under the impression that thermal has the ability to see you sitting on the toilet in your house. The rule isn't as restrictive as you might think. But still requires some planning. Ive been told the Talon is good for long range/high altitudes which is what Im trying to independently confirm, vs calling the FLIR salesman and getting his 2 cents.
As far as fires, the Forest Service and CDF do pretty well. When they need something done, they fly in their AH-1 Cobra with all of its bells and whistles or their Turbo Commander with its FLIR.
Again, this was not for CAP use. I dont see CAWG kicking down $600K for a FLIR.
Quotethe ability to see you sitting on the toilet in your house.
Well they would be able to see *ME*!!! I'm not called PUMBAA for nothing!
I just saw an ad in May-July "Volunteer" for FLIR Systems Inc touting it's products use/potential use by CAP. Anyone know if there are plans to install it on CAP aircraft? Sure would up our capabilities.
I havnt heard anything. At about $300K per for a basic model, Im not holding my breath.
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 01, 2009, 05:31:23 AM
I havnt heard anything. At about $300K per for a basic model, Im not holding my breath.
That's probably the budget for a region and 7 wings! CAP isn't going to invest in that stuff anytime soon IMO.
Quote from: Gunner C on July 01, 2009, 06:06:24 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 01, 2009, 05:31:23 AM
I havnt heard anything. At about $300K per for a basic model, Im not holding my breath.
That's probably the budget for a region and 7 wings! CAP isn't going to invest in that stuff anytime soon IMO.
What part of "
This isn't for CAP" did you not understand? This is for his employer, the Sheriff's Department.
QuoteWhat part of "This isn't for CAP" did you not understand? This is for his employer, the Sheriff's Department.
PHall... EVERYTHING is about CAP... Even if it is not, then CAPTalkers make it about it. So even if it is for his employer it is really for CAP.
You know the story... A friend of mine recently got VD......
Quote from: es_g0d on June 01, 2009, 05:42:09 AM
Be careful with how you intend to use it. SAR wouldn't be a problem, but CN would. This is why ARCHER does near-IR and near-UV (and everything in between). Its all within the visible spectrum.
There's some piece of case law that requires law enforcement to use only the visible spectrum. I wish I could quote you more specifics.
Tech alert :)
Actually, ARCHER doesn't use Blue or UV due the significant atmospheric effects (scattering, etc..), high noise, and the sensor normalization problems. According to the
open source information online, the analysis starts at 500 nm (Green).
I remember a few years ago evidence legality was questioned regarding use of thermal cameras to detect attic "gardens" (Heat from grow lights). Creative methods used to detect illegal activities are always under scrutiny - especially those used to support search warrants. (Discovery?)
I Remember another example where electric and water bills were being looked at too.
Was curious because I was doing some Optics work in my Senior year and this was an intriguing use at the time.
There are many appropriate ways to use FLIR in the detection of indoor grows. However, It would take a lot of typing which I dont feel like doing.
My initial intent of the post was not to explore using the FLIR for CAP. I was trying to tap any resources here on CAPTalk that might be familiar with them. I currently use the FLIR Ultra 8500 which is one step down from the Talon. The Talon is the military model, the civilian model of that variant is the FLIR Ultra 9HD. The difference is the Talon (for military use) doesnt have an HD Color Camera. The civilian variant does.
And, since we support LE Agencies who use this equipment, it might not hurt our members to see a discussion regarding this equipment an its uses and pros and cons.
I guess we could sell all our C-172s and use to money to equip one aircraft per wing with a FLIR system.
I always liked the IAI POP 200/300 used on the Shadow UAV.
It's already set up to downlink to the ground...................and with a laser designator we'll always be ready to drop a HELLFIRE on a the guy we catch growing pot in his backyard ;D
I don't know the price range of all the systems but at least some type of FLIR would make us at least 10 times more effective than the Mark 1 eyeball.
We can hope.
Quote from: PHall on July 01, 2009, 03:57:57 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on July 01, 2009, 06:06:24 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 01, 2009, 05:31:23 AM
I havnt heard anything. At about $300K per for a basic model, Im not holding my breath.
That's probably the budget for a region and 7 wings! CAP isn't going to invest in that stuff anytime soon IMO.
What part of "This isn't for CAP" did you not understand? This is for his employer, the Sheriff's Department.
(Bowing down low) Please accept my apology - I wasn't trying to be an idiot (lying prostrate on the ground begging not to be flogged by my betters). ::)
I hadnt seen the recent issue of the VOLUNTEER, however, now that I have it, I see the FLIR advertisement on page 51. It makes it sound as if we are using them? Or is it FLIRs subtle way suggesting we NEED to use them?
Excellent product. Im all for it depending on who needs to pay for it. Get rid of that ARCHER we never use and put a FLIR in the GA8. Ill volunteer to be a Wing FLIR Instructor! I like Gyrocam also. Great products, but Gyrocams are more for long range/High Altitude surveillance.