CAP Talk

More and more we are seeing the contention on this board that CAP does not actually provide search and rescue services because we don't provide advanced medical care.  I think most of us think this is absurd and am putting this in poll form because I am confident that this will demonstrate that this is the majority view. 

But, lets be clear that I am saying that the average person would say that CAP provides search and rescue services once they learn what we actually do.  It is entirely possible that there may be legal definitions in various state or federal laws under which CAP may not qualify as providing SAR.  But, those are fairly technical arguments and don't really matter much in the overall scheme of things since the purpose of these laws vary so the definitions will vary as well.

So, here is my reasoning for why I think CAP provides SAR services.

1.  It is without dispute that CAP searches for people.  And it is without dispute that CAP actually does end up rescuing people, sometimes those in extreme distress.  To rescue someone doesn't always require the sort of advanced medical care that we don't provide.  First Aid/CPR can save lives.  Hauling someone out of the woods on a litter can save their life.  Is it common that CAP finds and rescues someone?  No, not really.  I only personally know a few members credited with saves, only one of which would definetely be called a rescue by 100% of people.  But, that is what we train and prepare for. 

2.  About a bajillion CAP regulations use the term "search and rescue" to describe what we do.  There are so many of them, including various task guides and reference texts that no citation is necessary.  CAP as an organization clearly believes that we do SAR.  However, since the folks that think CAP doesn't do SAR probably don't think CAP is credible anyway, I'll go on.

3.  The Air Force certainly believes we do SAR.  They direct our missions from the Air Force RESCUE Coordination Center after all.  The AFRCC includes CAP in its list of SAR links.  CAP members are eligible to go to the National Search and Rescue School.  AFI 10-2701 has numerous references to using CAP for search and rescue. 

4.  Congress thinks we do SAR.  Although none of the federal legislation regarding CAP specifically mentions SAR (it uses more generic language for ES), there is other evidence.  For example, Senate Resolution 132 from 2007 says, in part:

QuoteWhereas since 1942 the Civil Air Patrol has flown more than 1,000,000 hours of search and rescue missions, saving several thousand lives; and ...

.  There are similar bills on previous CAP annivesaries).  Heck, we've been telling them that we do SAR for years in our annual reports. 

5.  The National Association for Search and Rescue must think we have something to do with SAR as you can find us in their web link section

6.  The Department of Homeland Security thinks we do SAR or why else would they say so as part of their online training on the ESF SAR function?    http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/IS809.asp

7. Furthermore our air and ground teams very clearly met the criteria to be called SAR teams in the draft NIMS-typing document.  We wouldn't be the most advanced teams, but thats beside the point.

8.  Sure, CAP does not provide the highest possible level of training for our ground teams.  But, because we don't provide everything, does that preclude us from saving lives?  Would you say that a cave rescue team doesn't do SAR because they don't do swiftware rescue?  Would you say that a guy trained in rope climbing skills doesn't do SAR because he is not an EMT even though he get injured people off cliffs? 

When it comes right down to it we fill two niches in the SAR world -- Aerial search using fixed wing aircraft and teams trained in wilderness search and rescue with basic first aid capabilities.  We can and do rescue people while staying in that niche. 

Simple answer to your question, no, we do not do Search and Rescue, we do Search and Locate. Somebody else usually does the actual rescue/recovery of the victims these days.

We may have done true SAR where we actually did the rescue/recovery years ago, but with the advent of the EMS we basically are in "we find it, they recover it" business.

And for those who ask "what about all the "saves" we get every year?"
If you check, you will find that few, if any, were actually rescued/recovered by CAP.
We just located them.

Dude - its a beautiful Sunny Sunday.

Isn't there anything better you could be doing with your time then writing stuff like this?
(present company included)

Whether the answer is yes or no, makes no difference to anyone here or anywhere else.  We are what we are.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2009, 08:22:38 PM
Dude - its a beautiful Sunny Sunday.

Isn't there anything better you could be doing with your time then writing stuff like this?
(present company included)

Whether the answer is yes or no, makes no difference to anyone here or anywhere else.  We are what we are.

Can we cut and paste that on like 75% of the topics here, lol.

Is a swift water rescue team who has not responded to a swift water rescue in some years yet still practices and maintains certification for it...somehow no longer a swift water rescue team?

Civil Air Patrol does Search and Rescue. That we have been called upon less to do it is irrelevant.

QuoteDude - its a beautiful Sunny Sunday.

Unfortunately not where I'm at or I would be out mowing the grass. 

Of course there are some of us who still fly tail-wheel, ski and floats into the bush.
Thus allowing us to land at or near those in need of assistance.   There is nothing like the sound of a big radial engine mounted on a DH2 Beaver to make a stranded snowmachiner, pilot or mariner feel a lot better.

It's sunny and 45 degrees here, so I am off to refinish the bottoms of my floats.

Quote from: RiverAux on May 10, 2009, 09:16:00 PM

QuoteDude - its a beautiful Sunny Sunday.

Unfortunately not where I'm at or I would be out mowing the grass.

Just put the Harley away this fine Sunday.   I was searching for the perfect burger, located it then, rescued my thirst with a (root)beer after the burger was taken care of. ;D

Yes, the perfect CAP(er) SAR mission ;)

The USAF, through the National Search and Resuce School, teaches the Inland Search and Rescue Planning Course.  It is all about Search and has no sections that cover moving people once they are found.  However, if you can't find them, you can't rescue them.  Providing the location of the people in distress and getting someone there to pick them up is as much a part of Rescue as cutting them out of a burning wreck.

It is called team work.

No one person can do the job.

Very true and if SAR meant pulling people from burning planes etc. then the Ohio Valley Search team wouldn't be SAR.

Quote from: SARADDICT on May 11, 2009, 12:43:51 AM
Very true and if SAR meant pulling people from burning planes etc. then the Ohio Valley Search team wouldn't be SAR.

Then apparently they aren't SAR.  Direct quote from their website....

QuoteThis is a civilian wilderness non-profit organization  who provide well-trained dogs, handlers and support personnel to search for and rescue lost or missing persons within a hundred-mile radius of Evansville, Indiana.

QuoteThe purpose of this training is to provide skilled and knowledgeable personnel and trained canines to assist in locating:
    * 1) Lost or missing persons in wilderness or urban areas
    * 2) Survivors trapped in a collapsed buildings or disaster areas
    * 3) Drowned subjects
    * 4) Deceased persons (cadaver search)

Their thing is missing person searches, not plane crashes that CAP says we do.  Their members only have first aid and CPR training, too.  Just like us.   Although, they've done more searches this year than my wing has had actual downed planes in over 10 years. The last legit search mission my ground team was called to assist with was 4 years ago, 40 miles into another wing.  Fatal helicopter crash, ELT wasn't turned on. Crashed in a forest less than 100 yards from a major highway, but nobody saw him go down.


To answer the main question... "Sometimes".  99% of the time, no. Maybe the specialty teams trained in severe terrain.  Really, the only reason we even require first aid training is to take care of our own members who get injured while searching.  We don't teach patient packaging, use of c-collars and other spinal immobilization stuff, etc.  Sure, we may have a stretcher and straps but unless there is a First Responder or EMT on the team, I bet nobody knows how to correctly do it.

Duh.  If a person is lost and you find them - they have just been rescued.

Quote from: Short Field on May 11, 2009, 05:00:35 AM
Duh.  If a person is lost and you find them - they have just been rescued.

I'd have to beg to differ on that one. Assuming you find them and can say "oh, the trail is over there" or "follow us to the road and we'll give you a ride to the ranger station" then, yes, you find them, they've been rescued. But let's say you find them after a 100ft fall down a hill, or pinned between two rocks. We found them, but they've still got a ways to go before they're rescued.

Again, I don't have statistics, but I'd be willing to bet that a decent amount of missing person searches are due to either medical reasons (the alzheimers patient) or injury (the hiker that fell down the hill and is overdue). Not too many people are just plain lost.

NOW THIS IS A  STUPID SUBJECT?

CAN YOU SAY i SIT AROUND WITH NOTHING TO DO??

^^^^^^
Sheesh!

I have to say no on this one; some units or some areas of the country do participate in all aspects of SAR, but I dont believe that is universal to the entire country.  As a number of people here have pointed out we are very lacking on the rescue part of search and rescue. 
Even with limitations on "medical care" this is an area many units shy away from.  I have seen numerous non CAP search and rescue units (PA specifically) that do no "EMS" level care as part of thier SAR mission (here in PA youmust be a licensed EMS service to provide ALS or BLS care, and that is usually limited to those actually operating an ambulance)  So that is a non starter on why?  Honeslty the biggest reason I hear is varitions on a theme but it centers around the lack of calls (which are related to the lack of rapid response ability)  ie why train for the SAR mission that no one calls us for when we can be proffecient at the one that we do get called for (ie missing person search vs false activated ELT's)
There is a big differance in training for a mission you dont get called for and not training for a mission that you dont get called for, yet let people believe you do.

mk

Quote from: SJFedor on May 11, 2009, 07:05:11 AM
Again, I don't have statistics, but I'd be willing to bet that a decent amount of missing person searches are due to either medical reasons (the alzheimers patient) or injury (the hiker that fell down the hill and is overdue). Not too many people are just plain lost.

Don't be so quick on that assumption.  People do simply get lost while hiking fairly often in states with decent mountains in them (had a handful of those type of searches last summer).  Is typically flat-landers coming up into the mountains for a day or weekend camping trip, and end up getting lost or confused.  Mountains and valleys can be very confusing and look all the same if you're not familiar with navigating in them, plus most people don't take the time to stop periodically on the trail and memorize what it looks like coming down, as I can guarantee that it looks different than the view going up!

As had been said before, whether or not CAP participates in a lot of SAR or not depends on many factors, policies and politics within your state, terrain in the state, amount of tourists coming into state, amount of air traffic, relationships with the local Sheriff, SAR organizations, etc, etc.  We are expecting a lot of missions this summer, many areas won't get any.

We have had several "Finds" in the last year where the person had gotten totally lost (93 year old in a RV - even had cell phone contact but he had no clue where he was), or had a mechanical break-down that left them stranded in the back-country.  We even had one where our ground team found the person with a broken leg, stablized him, then carried the person out to an area where a medivac chopper could pick them up.  I would call all of the "Finds" a resuce, even if all we did was vector the local country police to the site.

I'd have to call the Dennis Steinbock mission a rescue as well...

From Dictionary.com

res.cue   res-kyoo]  verb, -cued, -cu⋅ing, noun

–verb (used with object)
1. to free or deliver from confinement, violence, danger, or evil.
2. Law. to liberate or take by forcible or illegal means from lawful custody.

–noun
3. the act of rescuing.

Line #1 covers a lot of ground.  It's not all about high speed, low drag, dramatic "rescues" that look great on TV.

It WAS a beautiful, sunny Sunday here in Florida.  It is now Monday.  I spent my "Beautiful, sunny Sunday" on a mission.  Dispatching planes and ground teams as IC so that they can refrain from rescuing anyone they might find?

I think CAP definitely has the capability. Whether or not we always do it is up for question.  But as far as SAR?  When Im risking my life flying a canyon in the middle of the afternoon in the Sierras on oxygen, looking for someone Ive never met.......Id say were safe to call it SAR.

you use O2? ???

That's been mentioned frequently. When getting from A to B involves flying over 12,000' MSL terrain, oxygen is a requirement.

Where I am, we have canyons where the bottoms are over 10000 MSL.  Not to mention how high you get when you climb out to head back around for another pass.

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2009, 01:23:53 AM
Where I am, we have canyons where the bottoms are over 10000 MSL.  Not to mention how high you get when you climb out to head back around for another pass.

Sounds more fun than flying around Nebraska. Lots of flatness..

The overall question is merely an exercise in semantics.

That being said SAR is not a single activity nor is it a unique single agency operation.

Consider the most common pathway of a search:

Alert, LE, FD, or EMS response, Establish unified incident command, IC determines need for SAR, Alert Search response, target location, IC determines need for technical rescue, Technical rescue response, victims extracted, care surrendered to EMS, EMS uses START Triage and determines type of transport ground or air. Victims transported to either trauma center, closest facility or if black tagged left in place or temporary morgue (LE dependent).

CAP as part of the search, is as key an element as technical rescue, EMS, FD, LE and ground based SAR units. We are part of the emergency response team No one single agency can handle - or afford - all aspects of a search and rescue response. Locating and guiding in a technical rescue or EMS team is part of the rescue just as that technical team staging in preparation is part of the search response.

The bottom line is it is not important what we are called. It is only important that we are called. The rest makes for nothing more than a semantics debate on CAPTALK.

QuoteThe overall question is merely an exercise in semantics.

Mostly true, but still moderately important.  The fact that about a quarter of respondents don't think that CAP does SAR says a lot about the organization's ability to educate its members about what we do. 
However, I think that deep down some percentage of these naysayers are voting no just because they're mad that CAP won't let them give people blood or do field amputations. 

Quote from: RiverAux on May 12, 2009, 09:25:08 PM
However, I think that deep down some percentage of these naysayers are voting no just because they're mad that CAP won't let them give people blood or do field amputations.

uhh... you're joking, right?

Quote from: whatevah on May 12, 2009, 09:32:06 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on May 12, 2009, 09:25:08 PM
However, I think that deep down some percentage of these naysayers are voting no just because they're mad that CAP won't let them give people blood or do field amputations.

uhh... you're joking, right?

Sadly, no - in fact I'd be willing to bet there is a countable percentage in CAP who don't even know we do ES.  They may know the term from the literature, but what we do?  No.

And there's a lot of people on this board who would rather make a political statement for the masses than answer a direct question.  I don't know who they believe is reading this stuff, but the posturing and negative comments certainly don't help anyone.

Hint:  If you're "telling" us a question, why bother?