Take a look at this article in CAP on line news:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm/va_members_assist_in_successful_search_for_blind_hiker_lost_for_6_days_5411
The guy is legally blind, writes for a national hiking publication. Takes a hike in an area he doesn't know, without a hiking partner, and apparently doesn't believe in buying/renting/borrowing a PLB, & gets lost for a week!!! ???
Great job for CAP assisting both with search & "high bird" communications support -- lots of money "wasted" on basically one guy who should have known better in the first place, based upon his hiking knowledge and disability!!! >:(
So here's the deal, IF we save these type of people shouldn't we send them a certified letter perhaps suggesting the next time he/she goes hiking they take along a PLB. Frankly I think this guy should get billed for all the search costs.
Is something missing in this story (e.g. the PLB didn't work). What do you think about sending letters to idiots ???
(BTW I think New Hamsphire is starting to bill hikers who don't listen to weather forcasts (about severe weather) and don't properly equip themselves for hiking in the White Mountains.
Comments?
RM
billing for services is a tricky political land mine. Its one thing if the rescuing agency does not receive its primary funding stream from taxes. Its an entirely different situation when Takes pay for the resources to be ready for the rescue
CAP has no legal authority to send anyone a bill for our activities. Maybe the Air Force does under some federal law, but we certainly don't.
In my humble opinion it is are jobs to do SAR work if we have to do it for and idiot our a genius we should give them both the same treatment. In short I don't think it's wright to charge certain people for our services.
From the "National Search and Rescue Plan of the United States," 2007 (latest) version:
Section 54: Participants agree that unless required for by law, civil SAR services provided to persons in danger or distress will be without subsequent cost-recovery from the person(s) assisted.
Participants are: US Dept. of Homeland Security, Dept. of Commerce, Dept. of Defense, Department of the Interior, Dept. of Transportation, NASA and the FCC.
USAF and USCG responsibilities as the federal SAR coordinators are defined in the Plan.
Here is the lead paragraph of a recent press release:
Billing for Searches and Rescues Endangers the Public and Rescuers
Washington, DC April 30, 2009
The National Association for Search and Rescue has joined the Mountain Rescue Association, the Colorado Search and Rescue Board, the International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists, the United States Coast Guard and the National Park Service – all of which either oppose billing, or do not bill, people after a search and rescue (SAR) operation. "Although it remains a local decision, billing for search and rescue operations is a dangerous practice that should be avoided," said NASAR President Dan Hourihan.
Here is the link to NASAR's Position (http://tinyurl.com/o7rwjj) Statement.
And some recent articles and blogs on the topic:
On ABC's 20/20 scheduled for today, Friday, May 8:
Stossel: The Reckless Should Pay for Rescues
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7508528
Billing For Search and Rescue Missions -- Yes, or No? (http://tinyurl.com/cobocs)
Get into Trouble Outdoors — Who Pays for the Rescue? (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1892621,00.html)
Fear of Paying for Rescue May Kill You (http://tinyurl.com/7jxjg5)
Should the Rescued Help Pay the Bills? (http://tinyurl.com/r3nlmw)
Mike
Easy on the "idiots" there Radioman
CAP and some well known aviation folk(s) have known to be smarter than the weather and have gone down either with their aircraft or have gotten lost.
Thanks to sardak and isuhawkeye for the level headed response
CAP is getting funded thru AF dinero and if we are to continue oue"services" then charging the general public TWICE for what we do.......well you where I am going with this
QuoteIs something missing in this story (e.g. the PLB didn't work). What do you think about sending letters to idiots
Job security.
The missions and the PR help keep your squadron and mine alive.
Were it a perfect world, we would not have a mission.
There is probably more to the story in this situation. News articles almost never have the complete story and you can bet that if they run across your comment, they will only print the part that makes you (us) look bad.I used to get my skivvies all twisted up back when I was making big bucks dealing with other peoples problems. One day another cop handed me a cigar box full of stones. One for every other cop who had previously not been able to cast the first one. I have goofed plenty of times in life, so I ain't throwing any. [/size] [/size]
Here's the New Hampshire law:
206:26-bb Search and Rescue Response Expenses; Recovery. –
I. Notwithstanding RSA 153-A:24, any person determined by the department to have acted negligently in requiring a search and rescue response by the department shall be liable to the department for the reasonable cost of the department's expenses for such search and rescue response.
RSA 153-A:24 is "Responsibility for Public Agency Response Services."
Mike
Quote from: heliodoc on May 09, 2009, 02:50:34 AM
Easy on the "idiots" there Radioman
Yes, I missed that particular inflamatory remark when I was editing what I initially was going to post (trust me it was a lot worse). :angel:
HOWEVER, I still stand by sending the letter to him suggesting since he has a disability perhaps he should get a PLB, so that if he does get lost again, the taxpayers won't end up spending so much money, and also the risk to searchers canl be minimized.
Remember that he only got found because he started a forest fire that the fire department had to respond to put out.
Here's some other news on him:
http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/news/local/article/rescued_hiker_recounts_six_days_lost_in_mountains/15696/
http://www.freep.com/article/20090502/NEWS06/90502022/1008/NEWS/Michigan+hiker+who+vanished+from+Va.+trail+found+safe
Works for "Backpacking Light" magazine -- Perhaps a "nice" email or letter to the magazine would be suficient. Maybe the light backpacking could include a PLB?
BTW most local, county, & state governments have been severely impacted by the current recession & money spent on long searches does impact them financially.
RM
Actual SAR missions where there is a victim/victims involved, even when it's their own stupidity? I'd have to say no. Potential for people not wanting to call for rescue earlier and it developing into an even worse situation, just because they don't want the bill.
However, the 2am call for the ELT/EPIRB going off because of someone's ignorance? Perhaps, if they're a habitual offender.
Excellent post, Mike, as always.
Frequently our SAR "customers" have made errors that led to their situation. Its not our place to judge these errors, but to do our best to allow them to lead their lives. Hopefully they'll learn from their experience, and make a hefty donation to the organization we spend so much of our time and effort upon. I would never cheapen my life's work by sending anyone a bill.
Quote from: es_g0d on May 10, 2009, 06:52:07 AM
Excellent post, Mike, as always.
Frequently our SAR "customers" have made errors that led to their situation. Its not our place to judge these errors, but to do our best to allow them to lead their lives. Hopefully they'll learn from their experience, and make a hefty donation to the organization we spend so much of our time and effort upon. I would never cheapen my life's work by sending anyone a bill.
Well lets look at what the forum on 'Backpacking Light" says about PLB's See
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00205.html
Read that & then judge this specific individual/circumstance again.
RM
Thanks, RM, for that article. It calls the survivor's judgement into question, but I will give a 55-year-old man the benefit of the doubt in that situation.
No bill sent.
Well here's another one from Alaska -- this gal should have known better (and she even a teacher at the local high school!)
http://newsminer.com/news/2009/jun/06/missing-fairbanks-hiker-found/
Apparently CAP plane flew right over her but didn't see her. She had no compass, no signal mirror, no map, but did have some bagels & granola bars as well as her dog!
Hey when I was stationed at Elmendorf before I got there someone got lost right on base (in the wilderness area) and died of exposure -- so there was mandatory survival briefings when you inprocessed to the base.
Perhaps this teacher needs a briefing by someone ;)
RM
Good luck collecting. That would be like a police officer swiping someones credit card after their idiocy led to the police being called. I dont think we should charge.
+1
If folks are charged for emergency services of any stripe (EMS, CAP, etc) folks will be reluctant to call when they need it, even if it is a true emergency.
I can see, tho, a county suing someone who is blatant (calling 911 for a botched McDonalds order). CAP should stay out of the "billing" for emergencies.
People forget that we already pay a huge amount of money to local, county, state and federal govs for EMS, among a horde of other services. Property owners see it on their property taxes bill in black and white. Renters have it as part of their rent. April 15, or make that every paycheck, reminds us of what we pay to state and federal.
In my 20+ years of owning or renting a home and working for a paycheck, I have never called EMS of any type. That's a huge amount of money I have invested in the service when I need it, be it for a legitimate reason, or one not so much...
You're not paying for the service, you're paying insurance to have the service when you need it.
For CAP to start charging people directly would be a bad idea, however we're generally not the lead agency and someone else is footing the bill, whether that's a state EMA or the USAF. Its not unusual for those agencies to try and recover costs.
Many (I won't say most, but many and many major cites) already charge the victim for ambulance and related services, spurious or not. You ride, you pay.
Do a quick Google, you'll see cities charging upwards of ~$900 a ride or more.
Wait until they light off the twin engine Agusta 109 or Bell 412 to come and get you!