CAP Talk

Okay, it is pretty clear according to several discussions we've had here in 2006 and 2007 (search "weigh in") that squadron commanders can require weigh-ins of those who choose to wear the AF-style uniform either on a routine basis for everyone, or if they suspect someone is not in compliance. 

However, I don't recall ever even hearing of this being done, so I'm curious as to what you think the reaction would be in your unit if the squadron commander wanted to do weigh-ins, every 3 months for example.

Do you think the reaction of members would be different in an established unit vs one that was just starting up where this could be the policy from the very beginning?

Quote from: RiverAux on April 28, 2009, 07:26:51 PM
Okay, it is pretty clear according to several discussions we've had here in 2006 and 2007 (search "weigh in") that squadron commanders can require weigh-ins of those who choose to wear the AF-style uniform either on a routine basis for everyone, or if they suspect someone is not in compliance. 

However, I don't recall ever even hearing of this being done, so I'm curious as to what you think the reaction would be in your unit if the squadron commander wanted to do weigh-ins, every 3 months for example.

Do you think the reaction of members would be different in an established unit vs one that was just starting up where this could be the policy from the very beginning?

This is Civil Air Patrol, not WeightWatchers. It is usually pretty obvious when someone should not be in an AF style uniform, the breaking out of scales and arguing over a few pounds is rediculous and petty. It also seems to me that this would be a colossal waste of valuable meeting time that might otherwise be spent on worthwhile training.

Members need to be responsible enough to admit they are too heavy and SQ CCs need to not be afraid to tell someone they exceed the standards, but there is no need for mass weigh ins.

If you're talking about having everyone step up to a scale in front of the class, no. 

If you're talking about a direct, private, conversation of "I don't think you're in weight, and I'd like you to either stop wearing USAF combos or show me you're in reg." I wouldn't have a specific issue with it, but be prepared for the backlash.

For the sake of this discussion what I am talking about would be weigh-ins conducted in private (not in front of the whole class) of everyone in the unit who wears, or wants to wear the AF-style uniform.

And for the sake of this discussion I would say that it would have to be everyone because if you just start selectively picking out people, you're going to get more problems than making sure everyone is following the requirements.

And for the poll, I'm not asking whether you think it would be a good idea or not (there are other threads for that), but what do you think would be the reaction of most people in your unit as best as you can guess.

What I have done in the past is to show new members CAPM 39-1.  The last page or two and show them the weight standard.  Most will look at it and tell me something like I have not been that skinny since I was in High School.  Then I show them the Corp. Uniforms and help them find something they can wear.  If they can make the weight I show them the Supply of Air Force Uniforms.

That is definetely the right approach for potential and new senior members. 

Quote from: RickFranz on April 28, 2009, 08:19:07 PM
What I have done in the past is to show new members CAPM 39-1.  The last page or two and show them the weight standard.  Most will look at it and tell me something like I have not been that skinny since I was in High School.  Then I show them the Corp. Uniforms and help them find something they can wear.  If they can make the weight I show them the Supply of Air Force Uniforms.

*DING* *DING* *DING* We have a winner!   :clap:

It would be a non-issue in my squadron because only two seniors wear AF style uniforms, me and the CC and we're both Air Guard.  Everyone else wears some variation of polo shirts.

To quote myself:

Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2007, 07:05:32 PM
As one of the few commanders who has actually conducted a mandatory weigh-in, let me share our experiences.

I am the activity director for a high-profile NCSA, and saw a problem at another NCSA last year.  At that activity, an >18 member appeared with only USAF-style uniforms and was 25+ lbs outside the allowable weight, and did not have the funds to purchase a coporate-style uniform (which are not cheap, BTW).

IOW, that member arrived at the activity as a sort of fait accompli, unable to wear their uniform and with no alternatives available.  It was a . . . problem.

So for my activity, I resolved to prevent the problem while doing my best to maintain the dignity of all our members.

1.  The fact that there would be a weigh-in was publicized well ahead of the activity, along with the information that all members were welcome regardless of size, and this was just a matter of ensuring that everyone was wearing the appropriate uniform.

2.  Everyone 18 and older who wanted to wear the USAF-style uniforms was weighed, starting with me.  Cadets under 18, and members who chose to wear only corporate-style uniforms were not weighed.

3.  Each weigh-in was done privately, with only me (or a designated female senior) and the member present.  The scale was calibrated in the presence of the member.

4.  We had a copy of the 39-1 available for reference.

5.  An allowance was given for the weight of clothing worn.


Overall, after some initial concern that was raised after the first announcement, the process went well.  One member did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-style uniforms, and was taken to a local mall to purchase corporate uniform components (shirt, slacks, blazer.)  I had taken the precaution have having several sets of blazer uniform insignia available (although the nameplate did not have the member's name.)

The feedback from the members was positive, with the exception of the member who had to wear the corporate uniform.  He/she indicated that the local commanders -- including the home wing commander -- were aware of the situation and had always been "OK" with the member wearing the USAF-style uniform despite being outside the allowable weight range.

I would welcome any suggestions as to how to improve our process for next year.

Ned Lee

Hmm, not the armageddon predicted by many of those who have responded to the poll so far. 

 I don't see much of a problem unless it is done in a mean derogatory way.

My hats off to the unit that is absolutely so caught up with all aspects of their missions and admin that they can chase this windmill . . .

Stay tuned for CAP urinalysis testing at a squadron near you!

Quote from: O-Rex on April 28, 2009, 09:29:03 PM
My hats off to the unit that is absolutely so caught up with all aspects of their missions and admin that they can chase this windmill . . .

Stay tuned for CAP urinalysis testing at a squadron near you!

Kinda makes it sound like it's OK to ignore some rules as long as we're making mission. Is that what you're saying, or just what it looks like?

If that's what you're saying, then it's a wrong outlook. If that's just what it looks like, then I invite you to clarify. For my own benefit, of course.

Do you recommend that Wing, Region and National Staff members, who should be setting the example for all of us, be weighed as well? 

Sometimes it is hard to hold members to a higher standard than those who are higher up in the organization.

Quote from: Westernslope on April 28, 2009, 10:36:28 PM
Do you recommend that Wing, Region and National Staff members, who should be setting the example for all of us, be weighed as well? 

Like a certain Female Commander of the National Level HQ persuasion??  Or how about a former National "nameless" figure?

When they can set examples.......then we shall enforce??

Quote from: Spike on April 28, 2009, 10:57:11 PM

Quote from: Westernslope on April 28, 2009, 10:36:28 PM
Do you recommend that Wing, Region and National Staff members, who should be setting the example for all of us, be weighed as well? 

Like a certain Female Commander of the National Level HQ persuasion??  Or how about a former National "nameless" figure?

When they can set examples.......then we shall enforce??

Oh, you actually know their actual height and weights?

If you don't, then how do you know they are in violation of the regs?

^ Yes I do. 

The AF does not really care,  I don't really care, and as a  former squadron commander I got a lot more important things to worry about.

Okay, the consensus seems to be that required weigh-ins would cause some severe problems withn the unit.  Why would that be the case?  We expect people to prove just about every other CAP qualification they have with some sort of paperwork for which they had to demonstrate some knowledge or skill. 

Why would they be offended if we required that they prove that they following the regulations in regards to the weight limits?  There is no essential difference between that and demanding to see someone's 101 card when they check in on a mission.  We don't just take their word for it that they're current and qualified to do a particular job at that very specific point in time. 

Heck, we make the pilots prove every single year that they need to know how to fly a plane safely and you know how much every pilot just loves having their skills questioned. 

Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2009, 02:25:20 AM
Okay, the consensus seems to be that required weigh-ins would cause some severe problems withn the unit.  Why would that be the case?  We expect people to prove just about every other CAP qualification they have with some sort of paperwork for which they had to demonstrate some knowledge or skill. 

Why would they be offended if we required that they prove that they following the regulations in regards to the weight limits?  There is no essential difference between that and demanding to see someone's 101 card when they check in on a mission.  We don't just take their word for it that they're current and qualified to do a particular job at that very specific point in time. 

Heck, we make the pilots prove every single year that they need to know how to fly a plane safely and you know how much every pilot just loves having their skills questioned.

Viewed abstractly you're right, however being lined up to weigh in will elicit a much more 'personal' feeling (most likely offense) than taking a required checkride. It could be because proving your skill at controlling an airplane is an accepted and understood part of being a pilot, getting on a scale to prove you are worthy of wearing a particular set of clothes is demeaning, even if you meet the standards.

Additionally, this becomes one more thing a squadron has to do, track and measure, wasting time, and if the poll is any indication, royally [irritating] some members off.

Let me give you the answer i received on this very issue from then General Rex Glasgow.....

"No one is ever gonna put you on a scale.  Its how you LOOK in the uniform that matters the most."

When I was in AF ROTC, we were required to weigh-in around the beginning of every semester.  They gave us a 3 pound clothing allowance- everybody lined up and got their height/weight measured at once.  In that environment, it was just expected that we had to do it- no one had any problems with it, and everyone did it.

In a squadron environment, I think it would be a different story.  Having everyone weigh-in does waste meeting time for one- and our contact hours are already limited.  Also, not everyone wants to wear a USAF style uniform- even if they do meet standards.  Because you're not weighing everyone, and because not everyone comes to every meeting, doing this in a squadron environment is more tricky.  So I'd say that in a squadron environment, where everyone knows everyone, it would be an ill-received idea.  If someone is out of regs, then all it takes is a tactful conversation with that member if they are still wearing USAF-style uniforms.

Conducting weigh-ins at activities would be a different matter, as in Ned's example, and probably a good idea.  If everyone knows they're going to be weighed before going to the activity, then they (should) be making sure that they're either wearing the corporate uniforms or meeting the standard. 

In my unit, it would not be a problem at all. My squadron commander and myself are the only ones who wear the AF-style uniforms (I sometimes wear the BBDU though). Both of us are tall and skinny (like I have 80 lbs to grow before I hit the CAP limit for my height). All of the other SMs wear the golf shirt, except for one who wears the blazer.

The funny thing is that this very topic was brought up at one of our meetings. All of the SMs agreed that we should require weigh-ins for those who want to wear AF-style uniforms. So, the two skinniest people in the squadron (not including the cadets), would be subjected to the weigh-in...makes sense doesn't it?

Either way, I don't care. If I have to get weighed-in, I have to get weighed-in. If that gets old, I'll invest in the golf shirt and gray slacks. >:D

Quote from: O-Rex on April 28, 2009, 09:29:03 PM
My hats off to the unit that is absolutely so caught up with all aspects of their missions and admin that they can chase this windmill . . .

I don't see standards as an either/or type of thing.  AAMOF, it's pretty low-hanging fruit.

Quote from: Hawk200 on April 28, 2009, 10:18:52 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on April 28, 2009, 09:29:03 PM
My hats off to the unit that is absolutely so caught up with all aspects of their missions and admin that they can chase this windmill . . .

Stay tuned for CAP urinalysis testing at a squadron near you!

Kinda makes it sound like it's OK to ignore some rules as long as we're making mission. Is that what you're saying, or just what it looks like?

If that's what you're saying, then it's a wrong outlook. If that's just what it looks like, then I invite you to clarify. For my own benefit, of course.

Compliance is important in all aspects of the organization, I'm just hoping that this diligent "quest for excellence" and the units apparent laser-beam-focus-attention-to-detail is consistent across the board, because things like this will garner scrutiny in other areas.

High standards are usually proportional to a military (type) unit's appeal and the prestige that goes with being a member (drawing from Mil examples, Marines, Seals, Tomb Guard etc.) as well as the satisfaction that comes with participation and achieving a higher standard.  If a unit is high-speed/low-drag, more power to them, I just hope that they have something to offer the members that is above and beyond others that perhaps may not enforce policies to such a degree.

I think that most folks respect the philosopy "We expect alot, but we offer alot."   Referring to my original post, if that be the case, then fair is fair: play along or transfer elsewhere.  If the unit is that good, then the folks who 'vote with their feet' will be relatively few, and probably won't be sorely missed. 
 
The majority of threads in CAPTalk are about bridging the gap between that CAP that should be, and the CAP that we have, which is a challenge (and often a frustration) for anyone commanding a CAP unit.  The key is to try to do it across all functional areas, Otherwise, the strict enforcement of one item will appear as just a pet-peeve, and may not achieve the desired effect.

To say that this issue isn't one worth the squadron's time to investigate and enforce is to say that the USAF's opinion on who should be allowed to wear their uniform is not important and worth our time to enforce.

If they set rules for us to follow in order to wear a uniform, it is up to the commander of that unit to enforce those rules. Ultimately, the commander is going to be the one held responsible if that member is actually ever disciplined for wearing the uniform when overweight. And you really never know who is going to see who that is going to get the uniform taken away completely.

To me, that leaves the commander with the ability to enforce this policy in any way he or she feels is necessary (and legal) to do. If that means pulling one questionable senior into the office and pulling out the scale, then that's what it takes.

At the end of the day, it is our responsibility to abide by these rules of we want to have the privilege of wearing the uniform at all. I fail to see how taking for granted the right to wear the USAF uniform is very productive in all of this.

While it may have been mentioned before, it's one thing to discretely have a weight-check for a member who appears out of compliance. It's another thing entirely to weight-check everyone - especially those who wear the corporate uniforms.

I know several who wear both, usually because of 'mid-section management' issues at certain times of the year.

I dont think it would be necessary to have weigh ins.  The Seniors in my Sq pretty much go with the polo shirt or the the AF Blues. When new members come in, we explain the deal to them.  We have even had 2-3 members purposely lose weight because they want to wear the AF Blues.  2 have lost a VERY noticable amount.

Didn't suggest weigh-ins for those who wear corporate uniforms.  No standards for them, so no need to weigh.

QuoteIf they set rules for us to follow in order to wear a uniform, it is up to the commander of that unit to enforce those rules.

And uniform issues are getting mentioned in compliance inspections I have it on good authority. 

If you don't weigh in, you don't wrestle...

Standards are standards and we shouldn't be scared that someone's going to take their toys and go home.

QuoteThis is Civil Air Patrol, not WeightWatchers. It is usually pretty obvious when someone should not be in an AF style uniform, the breaking out of scales and arguing over a few pounds is rediculous and petty. It also seems to me that this would be a colossal waste of valuable meeting time that might otherwise be spent on worthwhile training.

Members need to be responsible enough to admit they are too heavy and SQ CCs need to not be afraid to tell someone they exceed the standards, but there is no need for mass weigh ins.

Obvious maybe...we have ALL seen the "he should have stopped wearing that years ago" member in AF uniform.

The problem is that NO ONE tells them that. NO ONE. Even the post below yours said to be "prepared for backlash" if there is even private, one-on-one counseling.

We're all Adults here....  Why is it so hard to just follow the rules....  If someone doesn't want to follow the rules theres the door...

I'm not sure if it really matters anyways... It seems our organization is going more and more to the Polos and less from AF uniforms....

What about this for an idea... Get rid of all uniforms except the Polos, no more Rank.  The only time that we fall under a formal Chain of Command would be in the ICS enviroment on a mission?   

Quote from: Nolan Teel on May 06, 2009, 06:23:39 PM
We're all Adults here....  Why is it so hard to just follow the rules....  If someone doesn't want to follow the rules theres the door...

I'm not sure if it really matters anyways... It seems our organization is going more and more to the Polos and less from AF uniforms....

What about this for an idea... Get rid of all uniforms except the Polos, no more Rank.  The only time that we fall under a formal Chain of Command would be in the ICS enviroment on a mission?   

Good to see you on CAPTalk, Nolan!

Quote from: Nolan Teel on May 06, 2009, 06:23:39 PM
What about this for an idea... Get rid of all uniforms except the Polos, no more Rank.  The only time that we fall under a formal Chain of Command would be in the ICS enviroment on a mission?   

:clap:

Additionally, in our organization, leadership by example is critical.

Enough said...

There's a time and a place for the polo shirt uniform, such as for CD/HLS ops or other times where an AF or corporate-style military uniform may not be appropriate. It should not be a regular uniform for a meeting. Personally, I don't mind wearing it, and it's a relatively cheap uniform to get new SMs started. But if you work with cadinks, and I was the squadron CC, I'd expect you to wear military style AF, TPU or grays.

So wearing polo shirts and dress pants in the swamps of Florida is not advised??

Man, I just got myself some new dress shoes too.............

have you seen the fat guys getting into the air planes and not being honest about their weight. This is the real issue, it is about safety.

with that said I agree we need to get rid of the uniform if NHQ cannot decide what we are how can we. Besides that way we are not identified as a militant group according to homeland security.

:angel:

As one of the "fat guys," I have no problem enforcing the uniform standards on myself. Everyone in my squadron who wears BDU's meets weight requirements (or, looks like they do). When I get down to where I can not look like Gomer Pyle in BDU's, I'll bring them out of the closet. Until then, I look like a blueberry...

^ Right on!  Good work on your part.  I can't wear AF either......but not because I am fat.  I have no problem following the rules, even if I hate the rules. 

Diddo

I have been trying to go the other way simply because I find it alot more comfortable to be flying with 30 pounds less. Maybe we can start a CAP fatboy program!! Fly the border 2 weekends per month when it is 120 degrees. Oh baby that is a way to go.

Cheaper then Jenny Craig

I agree that we must lead by example.... but lets face it....  whens the last time you saw CAP uphold a standard for uniforms to seniors?  Dear god... forget to turn the transponder off in a CAP Aircraft... the wrath of god is on you!

Quote from: Nolan Teel on May 07, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
I agree that we must lead by example.... but lets face it....  whens the last time you saw CAP uphold a standard for uniforms to seniors?  Dear god... forget to turn the transponder off in a CAP Aircraft... the wrath of god is on you!

That's one thing that killed me as a Cadet was to see seniors that really didn't care. I don't want to be that SMember that some Cadet now looks at and says "wow, wish he'd follow the rules." That whole thing about Integrity and Leading by Example doesn't stop when you cross into the Grey.

But then there's the obvious question, who's going to police the issue? Face it folks, it's not a priority for most. As was stated earlier, most Seniors would rather wear the Polo and Slacks than the full uniform if they had too.

Quote from: BrandonKea on May 07, 2009, 11:15:14 PM
As was stated earlier, most Seniors would rather wear the Polo and Slacks than the full uniform if they had too.

That's just it, there is not "set" uniform for Seniors.  Cadets are required to wear the Blue AF Style.  BDU's and everything else are good to have, but not mandatory. 

For Seniors they must wear "a uniform".  Nothing set in stone.  Honestly, for what I do in CAP, the Polo is better than BDU's/ AF style every time. 

Don't mistake your Cadet time and experiences for those of a Senior Member.  Apples and Oranges. 

Quote from: Spike on May 08, 2009, 12:54:44 AM

Quote from: BrandonKea on May 07, 2009, 11:15:14 PM
As was stated earlier, most Seniors would rather wear the Polo and Slacks than the full uniform if they had too.

That's just it, there is not "set" uniform for Seniors.  Cadets are required to wear the Blue AF Style.  BDU's and everything else are good to have, but not mandatory. 

Please read page one eight of CAPM 39-1.  The Aviator whites are required for all members to posses, unless the have the blue short-sleeve service dress.  The assumption that the golf shirt is the basic uniform for senior members is a wives tale.

Allow me to assist...

Quote from: CAPM39-1, Page 5
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Page 8
1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.

Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2009, 01:01:40 AM
Please read page one of CAPM 39-1.  The Aviator whites are required for all members to posses, unless the have the blue short-sleeve service dress.  The assumption that the golf shirt is the basic uniform for senior members is a wives tale.

Actually Page 8.  Thank you for the correction. 

Do you ever think anyone from National read these posts to get a pulse on the members?

They do lurk; few, if any participate actively lest they get bombarded with needless emails and PMs from the membership.

Regulations are regulations.  As stated here on many occasions, we cannot pick and choose the ones that best fit individual needs.  Senior members need to be within the weight/BMI limits to wear the AF style uniform.  This is a no brainer everyone. 

Quote from: PaulR on May 09, 2009, 11:25:07 PM
Regulations are regulations.  As stated here on many occasions, we cannot pick and choose the ones that best fit individual needs.  Senior members need to be within the weight/BMI limits to wear the AF style uniform.  This is a no brainer everyone.

It's weight only. BMI is not used and has not standing for uniforms.

Quote from: arajca on May 09, 2009, 11:45:53 PM

Quote from: PaulR on May 09, 2009, 11:25:07 PM
Regulations are regulations.  As stated here on many occasions, we cannot pick and choose the ones that best fit individual needs.  Senior members need to be within the weight/BMI limits to wear the AF style uniform.  This is a no brainer everyone.

It's weight only. BMI is not used and has not standing for uniforms.

BMI = FAIL

Anything that says Arnold Schwarzenegger and Tom Arnold are the same level of fit is ridiculous.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Though CAP doesn't specifically use BMI, as I mentioned before there is almost a match between the maximimum allowable weight for a particular height and the generally accepted BMI interpretation of what is "Obese".  I think this is just a cooincidence though.