In the spirit of keeping topics (especially ones I create) on topic, I've started another thread on Cadet Retention, broken off the bottom of the Pipeline Thread.
Quote from: NIN on April 17, 2009, 08:39:45 PM
Quote from: Pingree1492 on April 17, 2009, 07:59:50 PM
This is our 5th Open House cycle, each one seems to be a little bit better (as in quality, not quantity) than the last. Though our over-all first-year retention seems to be still in the 50-60% range (from Open Houses 1 and 2), which is what we're going to address next. We're just in the roll-out phase of a program that will hopefully speed the progress through training and advancement in the squadron. This Quarter is our first real "test period", so we'll see how effective it is and what needs to be tweaked by the end of May.
That's excellent that you're measuring metrics closely and testing and tweaking. We did some "back of the envelope" figuring, but nothing more extensive than that.
That's what makes the CAPWATCH function in eServices so great. I save a grab once every 3 months or so, so I can go back to early 2007 with those reports, and just look at numbers trends.
The "back of the envelop" figuring is useful, but I found it differs greatly when I looked at hard numbers. I really thought that my projected retention from the Open House group from May 2008 was going to be about 75%. Looking at the hard numbers, that number will be 58%, which is a bit disappointing. Our Retention from our 1st Eaglet Group was exactly 50% (but at least we're improving!).
I use SIMS to track attendance, and right now 83% of our cadets listed on the MML are active (48 out of 58). That number will change at the end of May when we lose our inactives from May 2008 (losing 5), and gain the cadets joining after this open house.
What worries me is that there is a huge disconnect between 83% active cadets, and a 58% renewal rate. Which means we have some improvements to make in our program. The question we're trying to address is "where?"
Some factors I've ruled out:
O-Rides: Percentage of cadets that have been on at least one O-Ride statistically the same for the renewals and non-renewals.
Encampment: Percentage of cadets that have been to encampment is the same for renewals and non-renewals (none have been- it was too late last year for anyone to apply).
What Does appear to be a factor:
Promotions: Everyone that is not renewing from May 2008 have not promoted past C/Amn. MOST, but not all, of renewing cadets HAVE promoted past C/Amn
ES Participation: Those that are renewing have been involved in ES in some way over the last year
Now, obviously these aren't the only factors, that will influence whether a cadet renews or not, there are external ones to take into account. I'm just curious to see what other squadrons would report for renewal rates, vs. cadets that are currently active. Again, I was surprised ours was so low.
I am really glad to see someone looking at the statistics. This is one of among many things that I wish CAP made easier for folks. The data is all there, but the tools aren't so you really have to put the time in to figure this stuff out manually.
Be sure to take out of consideration cadets that have moved out of the area or have "gone senior" when figuring retention. Not taking them into account can really mess with your view of how the program is doing.
But you can't really compare the percentage of cadets currently active vs your past retention rate. Its not really an apples-to-apples comparison. The retention rate reflects the level of activity of cadets over the time period you measure the retention a whole lot better than it reflects what is going on now.
In fact, I would say that if your retention rate was 58% and your current level of "active" cadets is 83% then that bodes well for a good retention rate for the current group.
Here is a dissertation directly on point:
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRAINING AND RETENTION IN A
VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION by Jeffrey D. Montgomery from Auburn
http://etd.auburn.edu/etd/bitstream/handle/10415/458/MONTGOMERY_JEFFREY_1.pdf?sequence=1
Here is part of the abstract:
QuoteThe purpose of the study was to provide information that would lead to a better understanding of retention
and thereby improve the retention rate of Civil Air Patrol cadets. The research problem of the study was to
identify the selected training factors that impact on retention within the CAP cadet program. Three
questionnaires were developed to ascertain the training and retention attitudes of current cadets, former cadets,
and the adult leaders who train the cadets.
There was a significant difference between the retention of cadets living in rural areas versus cadets
living in urban or suburban areas. Analysis showed that cadets living in rural areas were more likely to remain
in CAP. There was a significant difference in age between the current and former cadets; however, this can be explained
in that many of the former cadets who responded to the survey had aged beyond the cadet age limitation.
There was a significant difference between the current and former cadets in terms of the reasons they
joined CAP. More former cadets than expected joined because of friends, whereas less currents cadets joined
for that reason.
There was a significant difference among current and former cadets with their satisfaction with flying
training. Many more former cadets were less satisfied with flying training than the current cadets.
This research study indicated that the number one reason for joining CAP was flying training. The research
also indicated that the two primary reasons for leaving CAP were ineffective leadership and insufficient
training.
You know that Dr. Montgomery is a valued member of our CAP corporate team, right?
It is a great paper.
Nope, didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me. The other main dissertation on CAP's activities that I'm aware of was by Mr. Desmarais.
I wonder if anyone can confirm or deny any relationship (positive or negative) between retention and drill? In my wing there appears to be a cadet program emphasis on learning and giving drill instruction. It occupies a significant portion of wing cadet activities. I've observed mostly new cadets attending with few coming back. Those who are "repeats" are the staff.
WIWAC, I went to wing encampments almost every year because they were held on a USAF base with tours of the facilities. My drill experience was limited to a daily formation then marching between facility tours.
In my opinion, there should be more variety of activities available to the cadets in order to retain them. I'm concerned about the cadets prior to becoming eligible for NCSA.
These observations are just my .02
Drill is what cadet leaders do when they haven't prepared a lesson plan, or presentation.
It is one aspect of the program, but generally emphasized far beyond its relative importance to the program itself or life outside CAP.
Unless you're on a competition team, 10-15 minutes a week is plenty, and even then the extended time should be outside regular meetings.
I have nothing but hearsay and personal observations to go by, but I know that the years when our ATS was little more than a multi-day, overnight, drill clinic, the responses to the after surveys were pretty negative.
Quote from: helper on January 19, 2010, 12:55:16 AM
I wonder if anyone can confirm or deny any relationship (positive or negative) between retention and drill?
None of the studies to date have broken out drill, per se.
But there is a proven relationship between inadequate leadership and retention.
The military aspect of CP is a key recruiting and retention factor. That is what separates us from the failed paradigm of the Air Scouts.
Drill instruction can be exciting or it can be dull and repititious, it depends on unit leadership. It is a crucial foundation for our leadership instruction (and CP is, after all, a
leadership program.) And we have a comprehensive program that takes cadets from learning the position of attention and simple facing movements to fairly complex drill and ceremonies. And cadets are expected to take leadership positions and teach and lead others.
Sadly, some units have difficulty making past lesson plans that sound like "go out into the parking lot and drill for 45 minutes, then come back here for aerospace education."
Those are the kind of units with the worst retention.
We can do better. One of the goals of the Training Leaders of Cadets (TLC) course is to give CP leaders the skills and materials necessary to create and run a dynamic local unit. Every unit should have at least two TLC graduates. The next revision of the 52-16 will talk about how units can set "smart goals" to actively engage and train our cadets. Watch for it to be posted for public comment in the next week or so.
Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)
Quote from: Ned on January 19, 2010, 01:18:41 AM
The next revision of the 52-16 will talk about how units can set "smart goals" to actively engage and train our cadets. Watch for it to be posted for public comment in the next week or so.
Thanks, I'll look for it.
Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)
Oh, I don't know, a lot of us have done some pretty interesting work with the title "advisor" !
Major Lord
From my humble experience both as a former cadet and as a SM talking to several cadets who enjoy CAP and several cadets who have non-renewed, I came away with the conclusion that 1 meeting per week, occasional O-flights, and maybe a bivouac once a year is insufficient to hold interest.
The major sticking points of those who left (or were considering it were:
1. Lack of (quality) training.
Other than the obvious lack of accessible training, there were complaints that the instructor was perhaps less than qualified in either the subject matter or in instructional ability. Many complained that having attended what little training there was, they felt they hadn't learned much and that it was essentially a waste of their time.
2. Lack of interesting weekend activities (both CP and ES oriented).
One meeting a week wasn't enough for the cadets I talked to. They wanted bivouacs, training weekends, Field-EXs, mini SAREXs, etc. Not every weekend, but once a month seemed like the consensus. I can recall as a cadet looking forward to a weekend bivouac for the whole preceding week.
3. Lack of requested involvement in ES missions for qualified personnel.
After finally getting trained, navigating the OpsQuals obstacle course, and finally getting that UDF or GT on their 101 card, most cadets never got "the call". Weren't asked to participate in exercises, basically felt ignored.
Obviously the reasons for retention difficulties will vary from unit to unit, but it can never hurt to have a conversation with them and determine what the issues are - especially the ones who have already left or are contemplating it.
To Joes list, from my exit interviews with cadets that drop out you can add: Lack of Senior Leadership and involvement. You can't have activities without Seniors. You can't give ES training without Seniors. To often cadets are left to "mentor" themselves, and this just doesn't keep up the interest of the new cadets.
Yep, and you can start with mom and dad dropping off theirs kids and never beinging involved except to tell the commander how nothing's being done.
HMMMMMM let me see now...
Does the infamous CPPT program have any bearing on cadet / senior participation (depending on the squadron)?
Does the lack of adventure training other than National Special Activities such as PJOC and somewhat similar activities to Hawk Mountain have anything to do with SOME of those problems?
How about some of those CAP risk averse folks at NHQ and the Wing level not getting with the ARNG or ROTC and getting a hard and fast MOU to do training. There are many Wings that hold up this training due to the fact the some of those folks CAN NOT even do something as simple as getting on the phone to ARNG facilities and getting a list of qualified and certificated rappel masters that can put on the training.
I know this 'cuz I have the stories and have call ed some of the facilities myself,, CAP at the Wing level or some squadron levels have not even made a phone call.
LEADERSHIP ..... where is it? CAP can't find a phone book under the Govt Blue Pages? This stuff is simple..Phone call and face to face meeting with the REAL pros, CAPers. It is some of the current crop of 30 to 40 yr CAP veterans who do not want to do any more than necessary in some squadrons, 'cuz either the Wing or the individual CAP squadron did not think of it to get CAP their credit for the operation.
Other than CAP special activities....some of the fun adventure training has been quashed by CAP legal types who by themselves have probably not made true contact with ARNG folks for rappelling or other adventure training that could be done with even JROTC or ROTC units that may or many not want to get CAP involved.
Swinging on a 120 foot rope in or out of CAP uniform back in the 1970's and 1980's wasn't a problem...we even had rappel masters back then
What?? CAP thought this stuff was only invented due to the myriad of lawyers we got floatin around, now?
I was a cadet back in those days or daze....but I am sure we had 25 to 50 per cent less lawyers trying to muck up everything now
Welccome to CAP in 2010....now get on the phone to your local Guard/ Reserve units, get the rappel master certificates, make 10 copies hang 5 on the wall at Wing HQ and by God, do not lose the paperwork!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ::) ::) ::) 8) 8) :D ;) :) >:( :( :o >:D >:D >:D :-\
Geeesh, isn't that about the same time that the cadet got killed rappeling?? I bet his parents are glad that we didn't have lawyers messing things up back then, huh??
Could have been...rappelling is pretty safe as long as it's done right
Lawyers or no lawyers
Was it a CAP activity or a gaggle of cadets claiming it was a CAP activity? Cadets will be cadets. Maturity level questionable today and back in the 1970's... myself and my parent KNEW the risks. CAP apparently needs to meet with more parents as well as EM's, Natl Guard folk, etc
CAP JUST needs to do better job other than making more online courses to justify its training existence
But then by today's standards we better request parents bubble wrap each cadet before dropping off at the CAP meeting >:D >:D >:D >:D
Next thing you know, D&C will dangerous, even on dry ground!!!
IIRC, it was a Cap Activity, but CAP happens, sorry, meant CRAP happens. You are right though, we need more than online courses. WIWAC, we had a lot more Air Force involvement, flights on Air Force A/C, activities on Air Force bases and Air Force guys working with us and instructing. Now, in our area, we get next to nothing from the Air Force as far as everyday support and interest in our activities. Our cadets think they are junior marines or special forces and are almost embarrassed to wear the Air Force blues. BDU's or nothing.. Everywhere they go, they want to take their webgear..
Thanks for the info AirAux
Yep some cadets like the Johnny Rambo stuff and good for them in some cases...
We all gotta realize the last 10 or so the AF has had ALOT more on their plate and CAP probably least, in some cases, the last thing on their radar
Resources are pegged for other missions, but that doesn't give CAP the right or ability to say where the Fed mission is jacked up
There is enough in CAP that is jacked up that it probably requires 10 more AF Generals, 34 FEMA DAE workers, 10 ARC assistants, 40 teachers, and others to get CAP back and patched up again in some regards and maybe that where we start working with the FEMA US and R teams and NASAR to get credentialed in whatever needed. Just because we are not first responders, the training for cadets and seniors is valuable enough for awareness as well as everyday use. Probably throw more cadets into being interested in EMS and other volunteer groups that can and do, do something they are interested in. If we lose CAP cadets to other organizations, as I probably am writing here, so what?? Did we lose them in the AE program somewhere or in the Cadet Program? Apparently we have in some cases. If CAP cadets appear elsewhere during our lifetimes in CAP and that former cadet turns out to be the next FEMA chief...did we do that person a dis service?
CAP has to realize that CAP is a STEPPING STONE or a launch point to something else.... I came back to fly and guess what I got Safety Officer, AEO, Disaster Prep Officer and guess I am out of a Form 5 due to the extras work I gained during unemployment..
For all you folks chirping about the flying club ...guess what? When I get back into a little dinero.... Ya think I am not gonna get back into the CAP flying club. Some anybody in CAPTalk land got a problem with me desiring to get back to the part of CAP... the AIR Part??
Anybody form here chirping about pilots and wondering about cadet retention and serving as best as you can without feeling the guilt that some CAPtalkers seem to love to dish out to the pilots.... takes a little time to get up to speed to get Form 5'd after a little forced departure, now doesn't it? I have identified some or most of the cadet retention problems just by occupying my ground based assignments and by being former cadet and Senior Squadron Commander when we had no airplanes and nothing but a Dodge M37 and M43 ambulance to do more field training than O flights
Lots o problems to worry about in CAP rather than worrying about going to Haiti, now isn't there?? Especially if folks are talking cadet retention, right??"?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 19, 2010, 01:02:42 AM
Drill is what cadet leaders do when they haven't prepared a lesson plan, or presentation.
Sometimes but not always. I'm trying to give my cadets a pretty wide understanding of the commands in the manual so when they go to encampment, need to drill a flight, etc. they understand infrequently given commands like "Close/Extend March" or "Column of Files." So right now I have my flight sergeant drill them no more than 25-ish minutes two or three times a month. Once they're all on the same page (or close to it) I'm going to bring it down to review briefly every week.
That said, the worst thing to see/hear in the Cadet Program is "What are we doing now?" "Drill the flight." "Um....okay. Left Face! Right Face! About Face!" That's killed morale of more than a few cadets.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 19, 2010, 02:22:43 PM
Yep, and you can start with mom and dad dropping off theirs kids and never beinging involved except to tell the commander how nothing's being done.
I have seen this first hand