Has anyone thought about starting a cyberspace squadron? Can it be done under current regulations?
What I am talking about is a fully chartered Civil Air Patrol squadron that allows any person in any state or region to become a member. Any and all meetings would be held online.
Comments?
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 14, 2009, 09:27:19 AM
Has anyone thought about starting a cyberspace squadron? Can it be done under current regulations?
What I am talking about is a fully chartered Civil Air Patrol squadron that allows any person in any state or region to become a member. Any and all meetings would be held online.
Comments?
Why? Technology has come a long way but you still can't beat face time. How do you salute a computer? How do you stand in formation? There are still mandatory in person training sessions that must be done.
What would a virtual squadron do?
We all go to weekly meetings to attend training, maintain currency and all that jazz, but it all seems kinda useless unless there is a real mission being accomplished. You can't fly a Cessna from a laptop (yet...), nor can you do GT ops, train cadets, conduct AE activities, etc.
So unless you really enjoy giving up two hours of your life per week to sit in front of a webcam and attend virtual safety briefings for no real reason...
Besides, wouldn't most Wing and Region HQ's already kinda qualify? Most of the time they are too spread out to meet in any other way.
If you can take online classes, and you have online gaming, IM's, Web cam's, then why couldn't you have an online squadron. You could meet once a month in the field for training. As far as flying I'm not stupid, I know you have to get into an airplane.
What I am talking about is weekly or even nightly meetings. If you can post comments here why couldn't you get together and hold squadron meetings online. What about people who are working in the afternoon / evening. If your meeting night is Tuesdays and 4 to 6 folks work Tuesday, you could still attend with an online squadron.
You got to think out side the box. You have to change the way things are done. You don't think the Air Force changes. We would not be the #1 military in the world if we did not change.
Maybe that's why membership in CAP is down.
I think it would be a great idea for certain squadrons. For example, in my squadron we have a 'senior meeting' every other week. It's almost completely focused on pilot stuff that could be handled over e-mail, phone, Skype, etc. It's all passing out information. Half of the SMs don't show up anyway. The SMs involved in cadet programs don't go to this meeting so it's more of a 'lets talk about pilot stuff' meeting.
I'm not a pilot and I'm not fully involved in cadet programs (I'm AE) so I try to attend but none of the information pertains to me. Anything that does pertain to me is generally handled through e-mail. Besides teaching my AE class, I usually have no reason that I would *have* to show up. The rest of my job can be handled online and once a month for 15 minutes.
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 14, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
If you can take online classes, and you have online gaming, IM's, Web cam's, then why couldn't you have an online squadron. You could meet once a month in the field for training. As far as flying I'm not stupid, I know you have to get into an airplane.
What I am talking about is weekly or even nightly meetings. If you can post comments here why couldn't you get together and hold squadron meetings online. What about people who are working in the afternoon / evening. If your meeting night is Tuesdays and 4 to 6 folks work Tuesday, you could still attend with an online squadron.
You got to think out side the box. You have to change the way things are done. You don't think the Air Force changes. We would not be the #1 military in the world if we did not change.
Maybe that's why membership in CAP is down.
What you are describing is no more than a social club, where people get together to talk online.
"a fully chartered Civil Air Patrol squadron that allows any person in any state or region to become a member" as you defined it earlier, would not have an operational purpose.
If I live in California, how would I fly the squadron's aircraft, which might be stationed in Florida?
How would the Florida member go on a SAREX with his/her squadron, if they're living in 10 different states?
The idea is very techy, but an unnecessary effort. Go to your local squadron meetings. If you're too lazy to do that and want to sit in front of a computer, then maybe CAP isn't for you.
Here ya go:
http://www.freewebs.com/vusafaux/
Now you can play CAP whenever you want.
I actually had been kicking this around about a year ago to see if we could get some of the college aged people to be active in CAP again. My idea, in a nut shell, was that college aged people want to be in CAP, but don't have time to do it. Some are cadets and some are officers. My thought was to have on-line meetings with discussions, chats, etc and keep them in the CAP mindframe. Keep them connected. This idea would be focused on a college campus where they could become a college sponsored organization. The unit would be a flight under a regular unit in the local area.
From there, as they got more established, they could meet on campus once a month for AE forums or other cool things they want to be involved with. Now, if they are a cadet and want to advance, they would then go to a regular squadron meeting for testing and such. Otherwise, they keep their membership and attend on-line meetings. I have personally seen so many people in the 18-25 year old range leave CAP even though they really love the programs and would like to remain connected to it.
The missions in ND Wing have reenforced this for me. There are so many members who could have maintained Ops quals through the on-line program and by participating during the summer that we could have called them in as a reserve force. I think we are letting a very important aspect escape us.
^Concur, especially for those of us that are used to doing this sort of thing as a primary means of business.
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 14, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
I actually had been kicking this around about a year ago to see if we could get some of the college aged people to be active in CAP again. My idea, in a nut shell, was that college aged people want to be in CAP, but don't have time to do it.
Having gone to college, I can tell you that if "college-age people" really want to do something, they always find time to do it.
If "no time" is their excuse, then they don't really have a commitment to whatever it is, including CAP.
Hmm, perhaps this could be used as a tool in conjunction with the Civil Air Patrol Reserve concept I promoted in another thread. One of the reasons I proposed for the Reserve concept was as a way to get people involved that live too far from an estalibhsed unit to participate in regular activities.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3840.0
If you were to add in some sort of regular web-based meeting to the other requirements I proposed, it might be a little more palatable to those who hated the concept.
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 14, 2009, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 14, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
I actually had been kicking this around about a year ago to see if we could get some of the college aged people to be active in CAP again. My idea, in a nut shell, was that college aged people want to be in CAP, but don't have time to do it.
Having gone to college, I can tell you that if "college-age people" really want to do something, they always find time to do it.
If "no time" is their excuse, then they don't really have a commitment to whatever it is, including CAP.
I disagree.
I'm taking sixteen credits at Stony Brook, I'm finishing up my EMT-CC course at an EMS Academy 30 miles away, which involves 6 hours per week class room/lab, and lately about 12 to 24 hours per week with clinicals and field internships. I also work 12 to 24 hours per week at a busy ambulance company, and I have a lovely girlfriend.
Where do I have time for CAP?
really,
I had 18 creds, 35+ hrs at work, GF, Gat a 3.8 that semester, plus a observing in a class for all semester. I found CAP midway through, I found time.
I know that for many it is hard, and I am glad you got your prioritys the way you want them. You are better than some other college students that I knew. They would show up looking like they fell out of an A-bag. Good luck on your EMT.
Quote from: JThemann on April 14, 2009, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 14, 2009, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 14, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
I actually had been kicking this around about a year ago to see if we could get some of the college aged people to be active in CAP again. My idea, in a nut shell, was that college aged people want to be in CAP, but don't have time to do it.
Having gone to college, I can tell you that if "college-age people" really want to do something, they always find time to do it.
If "no time" is their excuse, then they don't really have a commitment to whatever it is, including CAP.
I disagree.
I'm taking sixteen credits at Stony Brook, I'm finishing up my EMT-CC course at an EMS Academy 30 miles away, which involves 6 hours per week class room/lab, and lately about 12 to 24 hours per week with clinicals and field internships. I also work 12 to 24 hours per week at a busy ambulance company, and I have a lovely girlfriend.
Where do I have time for CAP?
Prioritize.
No one ever has time for
everything they want to do, in college or not. We all have the same number of minutes per day.
You've just told us CAP is at the
bottom of your list, after classes, clinicals and field internships, work, and your girlfriend.
That's fine. But if you choose other priorities, then you choose to allocate time to them, not CAP.
"What you are describing is no more than a social club, where people get together to talk online."
Well in that case isn't that what CAP is now nothing more than a social club? I have been to these senior only units. They spend more time BSing than doing anything else.
Before anyone gets their Depends in a bunch, I also realize that CAP has good units going great work.
Quote from: JThemann on April 14, 2009, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 14, 2009, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 14, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
I actually had been kicking this around about a year ago to see if we could get some of the college aged people to be active in CAP again. My idea, in a nut shell, was that college aged people want to be in CAP, but don't have time to do it.
Having gone to college, I can tell you that if "college-age people" really want to do something, they always find time to do it.
If "no time" is their excuse, then they don't really have a commitment to whatever it is, including CAP.
I disagree.
I'm taking sixteen credits at Stony Brook, I'm finishing up my EMT-CC course at an EMS Academy 30 miles away, which involves 6 hours per week class room/lab, and lately about 12 to 24 hours per week with clinicals and field internships. I also work 12 to 24 hours per week at a busy ambulance company, and I have a lovely girlfriend.
Where do I have time for CAP?
I think the idea was that if CAP is that big of a deal to someone, even if they're in college, the "well, they're in college, they don't have the time" thing isn't necessarily accurate. I worked at a college for 4 years, let me tell you that college students will find the time for ANYTHING they really WANT to do. Mischief, the Internet, XBox, etc...
In your case, if you were a Total CAP Geek™ (pay me a quarter every time you use that, please!), you might not take 16 credits, or the EMT course, or have the girlfriend. Based on what you posted, however, it seems that you've subordinated CAP to some other goals. (which is good, actually!)
Not everybody is such a blatant overachiever... You sure you didn't get a Spaatz? :)
It keeps me out of the house, and out of mischief!
Which is exactly what CAP used to do.
hmmmmmmm.
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 09:49:36 AM
"What you are describing is no more than a social club, where people get together to talk online."
Well in that case isn't that what CAP is now nothing more than a social club? I have been to these senior only units. They spend more time BSing than doing anything else.
No.
It isn't.
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 15, 2009, 03:28:41 PM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 09:49:36 AM
"What you are describing is no more than a social club, where people get together to talk online."
Well in that case isn't that what CAP is now nothing more than a social club? I have been to these senior only units. They spend more time BSing than doing anything else.
No.
It isn't.
Some are, BUT there are great units that are not. Think out side the box. Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying. We need to recruit, retain and expand.
Civil Air Patrol should be the number one choice above all others.
Quote from: D2SK on April 14, 2009, 05:15:12 PM
Here ya go:
http://www.freewebs.com/vusafaux/
Now you can play CAP whenever you want.
I don't see any evidence that the site has had any activity since May 2007. The "we've moved" link goes to a 404 page that links to a communications provider.
I can see something like this acting as a good supplement to a squadron, but not to replace the squadron itself. Cadets would not benefit from something like this as they need to be active every week to accomplish their needs to advance. Seniors as well, though many seem to have a lax attitude about the organization anyway. That is something that has always bothered me that senior members just decide to show up once a month, if even though just so they can say they went and go fly for a discount.
I'm 21, brand new senior member, was a cadet 7 years ago, and don't mean to sound like a know it all because theres still a lot about the CAP I don't know about. If it were my idea, I think every squadron could benefit from having a cyber element to them beyond just a squadron website. I wouldn't ever concider replacing the squadron though. Meeting in person, however inconvenient it may be at times, is the best way for a squadron to be functional, and operations ready. If you care about the program enough, you will find a way to be there. I have been unemployed since February, because I've been having trouble finding a job that can work around my CAP schedule. Not the other way around. Eventually I'll find a job that will, but CAP is my top priority.
We all joined the CAP, and all have a commitment to the program. I wish more, seniors especially, would take that commitment seriously.
I do see the points about how college aged people can find the time and could be dedicated to CAP if they really want to, but here is the deal, college is the time to try new things. it is a safe place to make mistakes and recover from them. Some people try ROTC, Fraternities, Social Clubs, Academic Clubs, etc while they are there and run low on time for CAP. What they might have time for is checking an internet board, emailing with the cyber squadron, and basically being involved. They could get information like hey this uniform item changed, or this FEMA test is required on-line and they could accomplish this. Instead they come back for breaks and find themselves behind those that are still involved. Eventually they fall away. Many forget about CAP until they have kids of their own and then come back. Should we be keeping these people or letting them go.
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 06:17:10 PM
Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying.
What's your source for this statement?
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 15, 2009, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 06:17:10 PM
Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying.
What's your source for this statement?
Known fact that CAP membership is down as a whole nation wide. Some unit Commanders on this forum, have worked very hard at getting members. But a handful does not keep us growing. No I do not have numbers to back my statement.
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 16, 2009, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 15, 2009, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 06:17:10 PM
Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying.
What's your source for this statement?
Known fact that CAP membership is down as a whole nation wide. Some unit Commanders on this forum, have worked very hard at getting members. But a handful does not keep us growing. No I do not have numbers to back my statement.
If it is a "known fact" but you can't substantiate it, then I don't agree there's a problem in the first place.
Perhaps the CAP is "right sizing."
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 16, 2009, 02:47:58 AM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 16, 2009, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 15, 2009, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 06:17:10 PM
Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying.
What's your source for this statement?
Known fact that CAP membership is down as a whole nation wide. Some unit Commanders on this forum, have worked very hard at getting members. But a handful does not keep us growing. No I do not have numbers to back my statement.
If it is a "known fact" but you can't substantiate it, then I don't agree there's a problem in the first place.
Look Capt. This is getting no place with you. The matter at hand is finding a new way to expand Civil Air Patrol. To reach out to others, to help find out about CAP. AS a PAO you should understand that the number 1 job is to reach out and blow our horn. Let everyone know who we are, what we are, and what we do.
Hell most in the Air Force don't know who the hell we are. Unless their base has a unit. I will not waste my time trying to get you to see it my way. Everyone has their own option.
That's what is so great about our country. Freedom of option.I find it disappointing that some just don't understand what I am trying to say. Clear and simple, Another way to reach people and find a way for them to join CAP.
There are units in my area, but drive time and meeting time don't agree with my work schedule, and my family. If it is this way with me, what about others?
What would and could a Cyber Squadron do?? In my opinion it would be no more than what we can do here on CAPTALK or other CAP focused web sites.
I found my old proposal. Here is part of it. I never got a chance to run with it, but this was the beginning of the idea. Maybe someone can get an idea from it. Otherwise, feel free to flame away. It was more of a brainstorm.
How it works
Campus Flight would consist of an on-line forum available to all students and faculty of the college campus. Membership would be targeted toward former CAP members but marketed to the entire college campus. An organization sponsor enrolled at the university and active in the host Wing would assist with driving initial communications among the group. Initial topics for discussion could include things such as "cool things I did as a cadet", "Things I learned in CAP", "My officer is cooler than your officer", "New things happening in CAP" and many other ideas to spur conversation. Once the group is established, informal monthly organization meetings will be held thus allowing members to get together to discuss topics while having a lunch or dinner together. Formal meetings would not be required. A detailed on-line discussion board and website would be maintained to keep members up to date with CAP.
Short Term Vision
Some members of Campus Flight could join the local squadron and participate as cadets or officers in the squadron. They would help update other flight members with announcements and keep them apprised of the happenings in the local squadron and wing. These members would be encouraged to transfer membership to the host wing, but could choose to go TDY from their home unit.
Long Term Vision
This organization would eventually become a flight under the local squadron that college students can join. Meetings would be different that normal squadron meetings in such a way that cadets and officers work together on an equal playing field to find ways to better support the local squadron and wing. All members of the organization would be required to join CAP as a cadet, officer, or aerospace education/patron member of the flight. A flight commander would be appointed to oversee flight operations. Uniforms would not need to be worn to the flight meetings and no distinction to grade/rank would be made. Cadets and Officers would be equal when attending meetings of Campus Flight. Flight meetings would include presentations on AE topics, ES topics, or other areas of interest. Meetings should be no more than 2 times per month for less than or equal to two hours. Current CAP members from outside the host Wing can choose to transfer membership to the host Wing after becoming active in the flight, but TDY status could be negotiated allowing them to be active in the organization for the school year.
FYI- I did not include as much cyber stuff in this proposal because that would be more operational once the Campus flight was up and running, but I think it would be the most important part of getting this up and running. I also wanted to point out that I did include ES and Cadet progression in the original proposal but did not include that because it was 2 pages. Happy to share the whole thing if people are interested.
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 16, 2009, 03:04:57 PM
I found my old proposal. Here is part of it. I never got a chance to run with it, but this was the beginning of the idea. Maybe someone can get an idea from it. Otherwise, feel free to flame away. It was more of a brainstorm.
How it works
Campus Flight would consist of an on-line forum available to all students and faculty of the college campus. Membership would be targeted toward former CAP members but marketed to the entire college campus. An organization sponsor enrolled at the university and active in the host Wing would assist with driving initial communications among the group. Initial topics for discussion could include things such as "cool things I did as a cadet", "Things I learned in CAP", "My officer is cooler than your officer", "New things happening in CAP" and many other ideas to spur conversation.
Sounds like CAP Talk.
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 16, 2009, 06:24:19 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 16, 2009, 02:47:58 AM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 16, 2009, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 15, 2009, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 15, 2009, 06:17:10 PM
Civil Air Patrol as a whole is dying.
What's your source for this statement?
Known fact that CAP membership is down as a whole nation wide. Some unit Commanders on this forum, have worked very hard at getting members. But a handful does not keep us growing. No I do not have numbers to back my statement.
If it is a "known fact" but you can't substantiate it, then I don't agree there's a problem in the first place.
I find it disappointing that some just don't understand what I am trying to say. Clear and simple, Another way to reach people and find a way for them to join CAP.
There are units in my area, but drive time and meeting time don't agree with my work schedule, and my family. If it is this way with me, what about others?
I find it disappointing that you want to try to create a CAP unit that exists online and don't understand why that's not a good idea.
If the drive time and meeting schedule don't agree with your work schedule, I get that. What I do not understand is, how will meeting online help you clear time for the things that need to be
done in person? SAREX, for example. Or actual missions, which don't happen at convenient times. Or any of the other things we do in real life?
CAP is not just about having convenient meetings. It is about committing oneself to doing something worthwhile, and that requires devoting actual time out of your life to it.
If you don't have time for CAP, then you don't have time for it.
You can't always have everything you want.Of what use would a million new members be, if their primary commitment to the organization is that they can log on and talk about it? That's what this board is for, and that's all an "online squadron" would be.
We need a members who are willing to give their time and do the real work that needs to be done in real life, not people who want to read about it on a computer screen. We would be much better served by recruiting a smaller number of those members than a large number of "cyber members."
I'm all for "reaching out and blowing our horn," and I use all media, including the internet, for that purpose.
But if people want to join CAP, I want them to be an active part of the organization, not to sit at home.
^I would like to point out that not everyone wants to fly or go to SAREXs (I do but that's beside my point). There are a lot of people would be happy sitting on the sidelines of that stuff...and they do. I know someone who has been in CAP 20 years and has never gone to a SAREX. And actual missions...I've been waiting for an actual mission for four years now. I've never turned one down. I have the qualifications and the time. They just don't happen around here.
I've seen several people in CAP do their CAP jobs online. Most wing and region staff members I know do everything online. In fact, the NCR Director of Cadet Programs lives in Texas. I also know of a PAO that does his squadron's press releases and newsletters from the sandbox. Anything that *has* to be done in person is done by a cadet assistant.
I think the point of an online squadron would be to allow those who can't serve, to serve (kinda what CAP as a whole is supposed to be like). It can be done and I would support anyone who wants to do it. Usually the people wanting to help out in this manner are the ones who want to do all that they can for CAP and not just log more hours. In fact, maybe my squadron needs to start a program like this. Most of the SMs in my squadron do nothing except fly....hmmm... </rant>
Define "service".
IMHO, it is defined as active participation in the organization, by being assigned to a position and fulfilling the obligations thereof. That means you have a staff position from the 20-1 or an ES rating, or do AE functions. That's what happens at the squadron level.
How would your online squadron accomplish this?
Quote from: Rob Goodman on April 16, 2009, 06:24:19 AMThere are units in my area, but drive time and meeting time don't agree with my work schedule, and my family.
Then I guess you'll need to find another way to "serve". CAP is not the only "service organization" out there.
Are any of the local CG Aux units a better fit with your schedule?
There are many ways to serve your community. You just need to find one you and your family can live with.
Quote from: Always Ready on April 16, 2009, 06:18:35 PM
Usually the people wanting to help out in this manner are the ones who want to do all that they can for CAP and not just log more hours.
You're going to get no place fast if you keep suggesting that the people who actually make time to come out in person and volunteer are somehow less interested in the organization than people whose sole commitment is to sit at a computer.
First of all I would like to thank everyone who replied. This was just an idea that I wanted to toss out and see what everyone thought about it. I see it has mixed results. Is this something I may work on developing? Not sure but I will see what happens.