Looking at Vanguard's site, I just looked at the NBB patch longer than ever before. I guess I knew what it was, but never really comprehended that it's an actual Blue Beret sitting on an 8-ball.
Okay, so you go to an activity called "Blue Beret" and not only do you get a blue beret to wear, but you get a patch with a blue beret on it.
Talk about...
(http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens1957075module9243266photo_1208983673Department_of_Redundancy_Department.gif)
Well, in defense of something that I don't like to defend - the beret is only authorized for a very limited portion of activities and only when your CC says its ok.
Whereas the patch can be worn in perpetuity and also on the flightsuit and jumpsuit.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2009, 03:21:04 PM
Whereas the patch can be worn in perpetuity and also on the flightsuit and jumpsuit.
I understand that and this is not me being against berets (which I am). I just think the NBB could be better. A patch with a beret on it? Really? I guess it's called "Blue Beret", what else are you going to put on the patch?
Meh. Just found it a little weak I guess.
Ah - I misread that.
The insignia goes back to when is was an Iowa program significantly different than it is today. I agree they could do better on an insignia.
Maybe its time for an update.
Better yet, most of the "blue" berrets I've seen are "black". I have nothing against berets! The regular AF guys at the gate when I go to meetings wear black berrets (AF security) and they look sharp! But there does need to be some clarification on wearing them (we have a cadet in our squadron who has earned one, and I overheard him asking the other cadets, "Who's jealous of my beret?". I wasn't a member yet, but it sure seems like he was shoving it into the other cadets faces (showing off), and kind of made the other cadets feel like he was looking down on them ( I can see it in their faces).
The 8 ball came into being in the early years of the Iowa wing special service corps. The 8 ball was created by chaplain Aydt. the logo was derived from the 7 wings in NCR, plus the headquarters for the region. The early berets also functioned similarly to the PA Wing ranger teams. Beret's deployed to SAR missions, flooding , and other disasters. The team was always said to be "behind the 8 ball".
the patch has been a part of this particlar peogram for 30 years.
more information can be found at www.blueberet.org
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on April 13, 2009, 03:43:41 PM
Better yet, most of the "blue" berrets I've seen are "black". I have nothing against berets! The regular AF guys at the gate when I go to meetings wear black berrets (AF security) and they look sharp!
The AF guys you see are wearing blue berets. The AF Security Forces berets often look black as they are so dark. But I assure you, place it next to an actual black beret and you will see the difference. I am one of those AF Security Forces guys one weekend a month.
I actually ordered a blue beret from Vanguard recently thinking it would be the AF blue beret for Security Forces but disappointed to find that it's not what I was looking for. I think they actually sell them for CAP, not the AF. When compared to my issued beret, it looks royal blue almost. Way out of regs for me to wear.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 13, 2009, 03:44:31 PMthe patch has been a part of this particlar peogram for 30 years.
I am not dissing NBB, but just because something has been a part of us for 30 years, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on April 13, 2009, 03:43:41 PM
Better yet, most of the "blue" berrets I've seen are "black". I have nothing against berets! The regular AF guys at the gate when I go to meetings wear black berrets (AF security) and they look sharp!
Those berets, both the CAP ones and the ones the USAF SF are wearing a blue, not black. Army wears black berets.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on April 13, 2009, 03:43:41 PMBut there does need to be some clarification on wearing them
Members who have earned one can wear one. Unit Commander has the authority to restrict wear. Pretty clear.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on April 13, 2009, 03:43:41 PM(we have a cadet in our squadron who has earned one, and I overheard him asking the other cadets, "Who's jealous of my beret?". I wasn't a member yet, but it sure seems like he was shoving it into the other cadets faces (showing off), and kind of made the other cadets feel like he was looking down on them ( I can see it in their faces).
Sounds like an issue unit leadership needs to address.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2009, 03:56:15 PMI actually ordered a blue beret from Vanguard recently thinking it would be the AF blue beret for Security Forces but disappointed to find that it's not what I was looking for. I think they actually sell them for CAP, not the AF. When compared to my issued beret, it looks royal blue almost. Way out of regs for me to wear.
Probably the USAFA blue beanie.
Quote from: MIKE on April 13, 2009, 04:00:44 PM
Probably the USAFA blue beanie.
Yes. I knew I had seen it before. I saw the USAFA guys at Lackland last year and their berets were more blue than ours.
Quote from: Pylon on April 13, 2009, 03:58:29 PM
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on April 13, 2009, 03:43:41 PMBut there does need to be some clarification on wearing them
Members who have earned one can wear one. Unit Commander has the authority to restrict wear. Pretty clear.
Only over field uniforms, just to answer the next question...
To elaborate just a little more...
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/nat-reg/ncrssc.jpg)
Patch Description:
"The blue beret perched atop of the eight ball represents the Blue Berets. The number '8' represents the seven wings and region headquarters within the North Central Region. The eight ball represents the fact that Blue Berets are always 'behind the eight ball' when called out on missions."
The real story is...
Around 1969, Mike Vorachek of Idaho Wing and Chaplain Raymond Aydt created the 8-ball design. It was based upon the plastic, liquid-filled 'Magic 8-ball' toy from Mattel - shake it up and it gives you an answer. It was inferred that the only decisions being made at one particular activity were made by the 8-ball and not the cadet staff. Putting the beret on top of it was only natural. Chaplain Aydt and Mike Vorachek went downtown in Williston, ND and had a drawing made. Later, they presented it to [then] Col William Cass, founder and commander of the Iowa Wing Blue Berets. He got a great kick out of it and the idea rapidly caught on. At the first Blue Beret reunion in 1969 held at Ledges State Park in Iowa, Chaplain Aydt presented the 8-ball design. When the activity's name changed from Iowa Wing Blue Berets to North Central Region Special Service Corps, the letters 'NCRSSC' were added to the 8-ball's beret, and the first pocket patches were made.
The 8-ball patch fell into disuse as the years went by, but in 1987 Captain Ken Gleich of Missouri Wing learned about the design. It was resurrected briefly during the last few years of Blue Beret when the activity became 'CAP-EAA Oshkosh' ran by Great Lakes Region. Very shortly after Blue Beret returned as a national activty in 1995, a new shoulder patch featuring the Saint Alban's Cross came into use about a year later.
I recall the St Alban's cross pin being worn on the beret as far back as 85-86. What is the significance of that?
Here is the gist of that...
(http://www.blueberet.org/StAlbans%20cross-Small.gif)
The Saint Alban's Cross worn on the beret is a symbol that embodies the Blue Beret spirit. It is a gold cross on a dark blue background. Saint Alban was a monk, and a martyr in medieval times, who was put to death for giving a condemned man his cloak. He was a man who was willing to give everything, including his life, for his fellow man. This is the same feeling and dedication felt by all Blue Berets, and embodies the Blue Beret motto, which is: "The Mission Comes First."
Have hope about getting rid of hoky patches -- after all FL got rid of their pregnant alligator (eventually).
Hey Ace,
Didn't they used to give the NEAT(National Emergency Assistance Training) patch to BB grads or am I thinking of something else?
Ace,
Thanks for the Clarification. My account of the 8 ball came from General Cass in 1999, and again a few years ago when I was back at Oshkosh.
He did make a point of telling me that he did not like the 8 ball as a design when it first came out
NEAT patch...
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/EMERGENCY/neat1.jpg)
You are right, Blue Beret was one of the qualifying schools for this badge. I'm not sure which others were also involved in the program. I might have notes of that in Col Lousia Morse's books, I'll take a look. That's the first version of the NEAT patch above, the second had the letters removed by popular demand around 1988 or so... I'd have to look at some old Bookstore catalogs to see for sure.
When the [Wisconsin Wing?] Blue Beret ES-based school was killed after 1989, CAP's support of the EAA Air Venture continued on as a Great Lakes Region activity.
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/nat-reg/capeaa.jpg)
Notice the reference to the St Alban's Cross, but blundering on the colors. I don't know what the ribbon on top represents. This design was also an enameled pin, which was used by some in 1995 on their berets at the first NBB.
Ace,
Thanks for the clarification. The only person I have ever seen wearing the NEAT patch was Lt. Col.(R) Larry Sitton, who used to be the ILWG Historian. He had quite the patch and insignia collection as well. In fact, a whole room at the Octave Chanute Museum in Rantoul, IL(the old Chanute AFB) was devoted to CAP and it was filled with Larry's collection. Later on he had to remove it as the museum wanted the space for other things but it was a dandy. Larry is a true CAP "original" and a good friend.
Quote from: alamrcn on April 13, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/nat-reg/capeaa.jpg)
I like this patch. I would be more inclined to wear this patch than the '8-ball'. It's a whole lot better than the '8-ball' patch IMHO. It looks more professional, more in line with the Air Force. The '8-ball' patch looks more like a moral patch.
For the record-Never been to NBB, anti-beret, anti-cartoonish patches (except for moral patches), pro-reduction of patches & bling.
I have always liked this patch as well. Its amazing how much the program struggled when the Beret's were taken away from Oshkosh.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 14, 2009, 11:41:13 AM
Its amazing how much the program struggled when the Beret's were taken away from Oshkosh.
Not really.
The NJ Wing GSAR school from 85-86 qualified for the NEAT qualification as well. I wore mine until about 5 years ago when I was worried I wouldn't be able to get anymore of them as I replaced my uniforms.
NEAT patch:
Earned for attending any of the following Ranger schools: Hawk Mountain Pennsylvania, Everglades Florida, Black River Mississippi, or Puerto Rico, or the Washington Wing Challenger School.
I still wear the 2nd variety on my BDUs (the version without "NEAT" over the top).
Quote from: swamprat86 on April 14, 2009, 01:32:55 PM
The NJ Wing GSAR school from 85-86 qualified for the NEAT qualification as well. I wore mine until about 5 years ago when I was worried I wouldn't be able to get anymore of them as I replaced my uniforms.
Oops. Left that one out. The reference I was looking in was from 1985 and didn't list NJ GSAR.
Quote from: MIKE on April 14, 2009, 12:49:13 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 14, 2009, 11:41:13 AM
Its amazing how much the program struggled when the Beret's were taken away from Oshkosh.
Not really.
Perhaps forcing cadets to wear the smurf suit played a role??
very true. I forgot that the UOD was the smirf suit
Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2009, 04:02:51 PM
Quote from: MIKE on April 13, 2009, 04:00:44 PM
Probably the USAFA blue beanie.
Yes. I knew I had seen it before. I saw the USAFA guys at Lackland last year and their berets were more blue than ours.
Personally, I think that's the one that our folks should be wearing. Don't care for the dark blue one, little
too close to Air Force for my taste.
As to the patch, I could go either way on it. It's a piece of history, but on the other hand could stand some updating.
2 comments, The first is that I still proudly wear my beret that I earned as a cadet every time I am in BDUs. The second is that the 8 ball patch looks good when it was on the shoulder it looks like utter crap on the pocket.
Quote from: caprr275 on April 15, 2009, 02:18:15 AM
2 comments, The first is that I still proudly wear my beret that I earned as a cadet every time I am in BDUs. The second is that the 8 ball patch looks good when it was on the shoulder it looks like utter crap on the pocket.
How about some better punctuation to make some sense out of the second sentence.
The second is that the 8 ball patch looks good when it was on the shoulder, however, it looks like utter crap on the pocket.
Pick on the guy with the learning disability ;)
Quote from: caprr275 on April 16, 2009, 02:18:34 AM
The second is that the 8 ball patch looks good when it was on the shoulder, however, it looks like utter crap on the pocket.
Pick on the guy with the learning disability ;)
Why not, we pick on everybody else. We're not supposed to discriminate!
hahahah you just made my day :clap:
Wow! And the debate STILL rages on over this stuff!!! The whole deal with the Eight Ball patch stemmed back to the North Central Region Days (ending in 1984). The patch was indeed a pocket patch! Blue Beret was one of the "big 4" for NEAT. The others were Hawk Mountain, Washington Challengers and Missouri Pathfinder Technical School. I still wear my beret I earned at (the real) Blue Beret in 1986 along with my NEAT patch on my BDUs. Served as cadet staff in 1987 & 1988. Was senior staff in 1989 and at NBB in 1999.
Having spent a fair amount of time in the USAF Security Police (now Security Forces), my view of the shade of blue for the beret has changed. I'm more in favor of the USAFA royal blue. It looks sharp and you can actually tell its BLUE! And... no confusion with USAF Security Forces. To me, it's a win/win.
The REAL story of the St. Alban's cross and why that is the NBB beret crest (NOT a "cadre pin"). Everyone knows the heraldry. What many don't know was Gen. Cass is a direct descendant of St. Alban. Gen. Cass admitted himself that was the major reason for the St. Alban's cross. Not sure exactly when they started wearing the crest that Gen. Cass created. It was before I went. I suspect sometime around 1980 or 1981. He also was not a fan of the military style berets. He wanted to stick with the french berets!
The current Eight Ball looks kinda hokey to me and I flat refuse to wear it. I'll give props to the fact it hales to the history of the program, but looks cartoonish. I'm also in favor of CAP developing a solid metal beret crest to replace the St. Alban's cross. Something in nature with the USAF PJ, CCT, TACP or SERE crest. Well, not EXACTLY like them, but along those lines. That's my 2 cents from someone who had a front row seat in the whole deal.
Quote from: cpyahoo on January 18, 2012, 10:45:23 PM
........... I'm also in favor of CAP developing a solid metal beret crest to replace the St. Alban's cross. Something in nature with the USAF PJ, CCT, TACP or SERE crest. Well, not EXACTLY like them, but along those lines. That's my 2 cents from someone who had a front row seat in the whole deal.
In this case i think that it could be done by NBB itself. The crest then issued with the berets.
Ground_Pounder, I'm just showing my age now! LOL That was "a million years ago". Truth be told, I think they shouldn't be giving the beret anymore at Oshkosh. It's nothing like what it used to be! I had a past activity commander tell me that the whole reason they started five the berets (again) in 1995 was to raise the attendance numbers. He said that was directed by National Hq. Knowing the politics of the day, it doesn't surprise me.