I need clarification on four uniform changes that were approved at the Winter 2008 National Boards (about 12 1/2 months ago).
These quotes all come the minutes of the Winter 2008 National Board meeting, which are available at
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2008_NB_Mar.pdf
Quote from: Winter 2008 National Board Minutes
Boonie Hats
"That the National Board approve the optional (but highly encouraged) wear of
the "Boonie" hat in woodland cammo or blue color to match the field utility
uniforms for use in extended outdoor operations when specifically authorized by
the activity director, and that the same insignia that is currently worn on the field
utility uniforms, either cammo or blue, be authorized for use on the "Boonie"
hat."
THE AMENDED MOTION CARRIED.
Question 1: anyone know if there is documentation somewhere saying that it's officially OK to wear?
Question 2: If not, does its appearance in the national board minutes make it OK to wear? Or do we have to wait for some additional instruction to come out?
Quote from: Winter 2008 National Board Minutes
That the National Board strike from CAPM 39-1, Para 6-3 the following:
"All ribbons, badges, and devices worn by senior members must fall below the
notch of the collar on the service coat or the bottom of the collar of all shirts/blouses
worn as outer garments."
Question 1: anyone know if there is documentation somewhere saying that this change is official and it's OK to wear bling that goes above the collar notch?
Question 2: If not, does its appearance in the national board minutes make it so, or do we have to wait for some additional instruction to come out?
Quote from: Winter 2008 National Board Minutes
COL SAILE/MI MOVED and COL CHAZELL/RMR seconded that the National Board
vote to approve that a Bronze Star device be authorized on the Commander's
Commendation Award when the award is given by a region commander.
THE MOTION CARRIED.
Question 1: anyone know if there is documentation somewhere saying that wearing this star is officially OK (or required)?
Question 2: If not, does its appearance in the national board minutes make it so, or do we have to wait for some additional instruction to come out before wearing it?
Quote from: Winter 2008 National Board Minutes
Wear of AF-style Blue Fur Cap with service dress uniforms
COL SAILE/MI MOVED and COL DAVIDSON/NH seconded that the National Board
vote to adopt an AF-style blue winter fur cap as an approved item of cold weather
headgear. No insignia is worn on the cap. It is worn with service dress uniforms.
THE MOTION CARRIED.
This refers to the USAF Blue Cold Weather Cap, a fur-lined cap that looks like something a policeman might wear in the winter (as seen in the movie "Fargo"). I have been wearing this item for the last year, since reading that it was approved by the NB... but a bit nervously, as I have not seen any document actually authorizing its wear.
Man, is it warm and comfortable! I highly recommended it to those members who live above the Mason-Dixon line!
Question 1: anyone know if there is documentation somewhere saying that it's officially OK to wear?
Question 2: Why, oh why, is it only with the service dress uniform? What am I supposed to wear with my flight suit when temps are low? Please don't tell me "baseball cap or garrison cap only" - I want to keep my ears warm!
Malcolm,
Regulations become effective when published in a supplement, interim change letter, or the proper regulation itself. You can see the published ICLs here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/interim_change_letters.cfm (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/interim_change_letters.cfm)
Of the four uniform changes approved by the national board in Winter 2008, only one is mentioned in an ICL (a blue boonie hat approved for wear with the blue field uniform).
No mention is made of the camoflauge boonie hat for wear with the BDU or of the other three questions I asked below.
Based on Joe's take on it, that means the other 3 1/2 items are all in limbo - approved by the NB but not yet correct uniform wear.
On a technical note.....decisions by the NB become binding when they make them.....ICLs or regulation changes not withstanding.
If you have a specific question about a specific uniform item...go to knowlege base or call Suzie Parker at national.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2009, 10:02:16 PM
On a technical note.....decisions by the NB become binding when they make them.....ICLs or regulation changes not withstanding.
If you have a specific question about a specific uniform item...go to knowlege base or call Suzie Parker at national.
That's like saying laws become binding as soon as Congress passes them.
The beret is in the same boat along with ranger tabs. you can wear them even though they havent been included in change letters
Quote from: davidsinn on March 25, 2009, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2009, 10:02:16 PM
On a technical note.....decisions by the NB become binding when they make them.....ICLs or regulation changes not withstanding.
If you have a specific question about a specific uniform item...go to knowledge base or call Suzie Parker at national.
That's like saying laws become binding as soon as Congress passes them.
Yes in a way it is.
If the President does not sign a bill into law or veto said bill withing a certain period of time it automatically becomes law.
Once the NB approves something is becomes law....if for some reason National fails to update the regulations or fails to transmit said changes out to the field that does not invalidate the will of the NB.
Quote from: knowledge baseThe minutes and agenda items are available under CAP E-Services. Agenda items are in effect when approved by the national board/NEC. The minutes themselves are subject to approval at the next National Board/NEC Meeting.
Additional details are published on the CAP web page and CAP Knowledgebase.
Quote from: knowledge baseCAPR 5-1 Ratification covered this area. Policies, regulations and changes to regulations become effective immediately when ratified by the National Board or NEC unless an effective date is expressly specified in the regulation, a provision of a regulation, or the motion to ratify the regulation. However, no member shall be penalized for non-compliance with a regulation prior to the time it is published pursuant to CAP regulations. Emergency changes to regulations or Interim Change Letters become effective when issued by the National Commander. Normally, emergency changes are sent to all members of the National Board by electronic mail and are posted on the NHQ web site. No member will be penalized for failure to comply with an emergency regulation before it has been posted to the NHQ web site.
+1
And you did an excellent job of putting this question to rest once and for with an answer right from the regs.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2009, 01:16:27 AM
Quote from: knowledge baseCAPR 5-1 Ratification covered this area. Policies, regulations and changes to regulations become effective immediately when ratified by the National Board or NEC unless an effective date is expressly specified in the regulation, a provision of a regulation, or the motion to ratify the regulation. However, no member shall be penalized for non-compliance with a regulation prior to the time it is published pursuant to CAP regulations. Emergency changes to regulations or Interim Change Letters become effective when issued by the National Commander. Normally, emergency changes are sent to all members of the National Board by electronic mail and are posted on the NHQ web site. No member will be penalized for failure to comply with an emergency regulation before it has been posted to the NHQ web site.
But that doesn't mean NHQ can sit on new regulations for an extended period of time after the National Board makes a decision. We are an organization of regulations, not of National Board agendas. The confusion created by abiding by policies out of two different sets of books is not much different than the subterfuge of an accountant keeping two sets of books.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on March 26, 2009, 04:08:53 AMBut that doesn't mean NHQ can sit on new regulations for an extended period of time after the National Board makes a decision. We are an organization of regulations, not of National Board agendas. The confusion created by abiding by policies out of two different sets of books is not much different than the subterfuge of an accountant keeping two sets of books.
Yes...but that was not the question being asked. That National has and continues to fail to do thier jobs is a discussion for another thread.
And since almost everything in the first post involves Air Force style uniforms in some form or another... it requires Air Force authorization, regardless of what the board says.
Officially they are binding when voted on, but as a practical issue that doesn't mean a hill of beans since the members are NEVER officially told about the decisions of the BoG, NB, etc. in a reasonable period of time. So, until the reg or ICL comes out, it really doesn't matter what these boards do as far as the average member is concerned, in particular with uniform issues.
From the answers I've seen, I gather that
(a) according to lordmonar, uniform changes take effect as soon as the NB makes them, despite delays (over a year now) in any further instructions being issued to the membership. There is no need to wait for an ICL.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2009, 01:16:27 AM
Once the NB approves something is becomes law....if for some reason National fails to update the regulations or fails to transmit said changes out to the field that does not invalidate the will of the NB.
Quote from: knowledge baseThe minutes and agenda items are available under CAP E-Services. Agenda items are in effect when approved by the national board/NEC. The minutes themselves are subject to approval at the next National Board/NEC Meeting.
BUT
(b) according to Mike Johnston, the uniform changes I asked about - star on the commander's commendation; bling extending above the collar notch on the service coat; and wear of the blue (fur) Cold Weather Cap (without insignia) - are all NOT to be followed yet, despite the point made above, because they have to do with the USAF-style uniform and therefore don't go into effect until USAF has approved them...something we members would not know about until an ICL or revised uniform reg is issued.
Quote from: MIKE on March 26, 2009, 03:08:59 PM
And since almost everything in the first post involves Air Force style uniforms in some form or another... it requires Air Force authorization, regardless of what the board says.
Have I understood correctly? And if so - why then in the minutes of the NB do
some uniform change items
Who's Mike Johnson?
The fact of the matter is that NB/NEC/BOG decisions within their area of authority take effect immediately, however changing how CAP wears the USAF-style uniforms is outside their AOA, so yo have to wait until CAP gets official approval from the USAF.
Mike Johnston is your friendly moderator, Eclipse.
I don't know that the Air Force micromanages CAP's wear of the Air Force uniform to the extent that decorations are subject to Air Force approval. If that was the case, would they have let the mess-dress miniature medals situation get so out of hand? Or all the funny enamel specialty shields? Or the National Commander's Unit Citation?
Just a thought.
That's why I said "almost everything." The hats definitely do... Have to look and see what AFI 36-2903 sez about the lapel issue though.
CAPR 5-1 says that all decisions by the NB come into effect when approved by the NB unless there is some other regulation/amendment/policy that holds it for some reason.
For changes to USAF style uniforms they must be approved by the USAF......so to find out which changes got approved use Knowledge Base or call national.
Ok, so the changes they just made a few weeks ago about being able to put the optional patches like NESA on the left shoulder we can go ahead and do that now?
Quote from: Black Angus on March 27, 2009, 02:59:21 PM
Ok, so the changes they just made a few weeks ago about being able to put the optional patches like NESA on the left shoulder we can go ahead and do that now?
The original proposal required approval by the wing CC, and was intended only for things like HMRS patches or other insignia specific to the wing.
What actually passed?
The optional patches that were on the right shoulder that were reassigned to the left pocket. Changed that Wing CC's approval was no longer needed.
I'm not sure that's what it said - anyone have the full text?
My read on this was it only covered a few patches that some Wing CC's were complaining about, not the whole set currently on the left shoulder.
"h. Optional Shoulder Patches on BDU: Col Benckert, VT/CC
When the Civil Air Patrol adopted the wear of the reverse U.S. flag on the BDU
uniform several years ago, previously authorized special activity and school patches
were moved to the pocket. In some wings, this action moved to relocate special
activity/organizational patches that have significant historical ties both to esprit de
corps within the wing and qualifications.
Proposal: That the National Board approves, at the discretion of the member's
wing commander, the wear of previously approved optional patches in place of the
wing patch.
Advisor/Staff Comments: The Uniform Team concurs with this proposal to the
extent that the national board should authorize the wear of previously approved
optional patches in place of the wing patch or placed in the same relative position
on the left shoulder. The wording allowing the discretion of the wing commander
would not enhance uniformity."
I know they changed on the floor that Wing CC didn't have to approve.
You're just quoting the agenda item.
I wouldn't personally put needle to thread until I saw the approved verbiage.