Hello all,
I was talking with another CAP member this afternoon about how we could use CAP for a new mission. It occurs to us that CAP could provide a valuable emergency comms service if we could carry amateur radio repeaters airborne to support RACES, etc during emergencies, in a similar manner to carrying our highbird repeaters to support our own activities.
I am not suggesting that we use ham radio frequencies or operate ham radios for CAP purposes, but what I am suggesting is that we carry RACES repeaters as a payload - we provide emergency services by supporting another organization that provides emergency communications. They are operating their radios for their purposes that we carry for their benefit.
I am thinking that in a Katrina type event being able to send one or more VHF/UHF or amateur TV repeaters aloft could enable handheld comms over a major portion of a state - seems like it could be awfully useful capability to provide...
Any thoughts?
--NTM
Quite frankly, we need highbirds as much as we do not because of repeater failure/damage but because of the gaping holes in our coverage. Hams simply don't have that problem in most (all?) of the Country. Here in the Tampa area we have one CAP repeater and a few dozen ham repeaters, including one network that covers practically all of West Central Florida. I am pretty confident that I could hit a ham repeater in pretty much any part of the State (with the 'Glades as an exception - but even then I'm not sure). I can name you plenty of places where you can't hit a CAP repeater.
In a Katrina-like situation a highbird might be useful -- but as someone who was on the ground in Mississippi on the ham side, I can assure you that we were not hurting for repeaters, plus we had HF, Winlink, etc.
Further, not everyone has a nice package ready to load into an aircraft -- I can imagine that it would not be a trivial undertaking from a logistical perspective.
It's a nice idea.... But I don't forsee a whole lot of takers.
Yes, when infrastructure is not destroyed, hams have got lots of repeaters available. But what we provide is a means of getting comms up for them when all of their stuff is without power or their towers have been blown down.
Besides, how many of their repeaters would have a 100 mile radius?
You're missing the point -- after Katrina, hams had plenty of repeaters still operational. I was located at Waveland, MS - ground zero - and there were repeaters on the air. Got a bigger disaster scenario in mind?
Hams are pretty good at keeping things on the air when required, no matter why it went off the air.
Further, as I hinted at before, the sheer variety of repeater hardware, power hookups, and the other site-specific details make it almost impossible to guarantee any degree of success in getting the repeater in the plane and powered up. CAP uses pre-staged portable repeaters that are all known quantities. Bring in an outside piece of equipment, and you've got a lot of potential pegs to fit in round holes.
Nice idea but I agree with Joe.
We need highbirds because we don't have coverage and have to follow "the book" on what is approved an not approved equipment wise and who can and cant work on our toys when they go down.
Most Hams, esp those into E Comms, that I know and are associated with, pretty much show up with their own version of Radio Shack in the POV. And if they ain't got it, or cant fix it, they know someone who can.................CAP on the other hand..........well if it is much beyond push this button and talk, well .............
The Ham community has so many more options and resources at its disposal being a "hobby" of "experimentation" that it really dwarfs any contribution that CAP could make to it............... However CAP can and has learned a great deal from Hams, but CAP cant seem to make ups its mind on how to use that education beyond "Push this button to talk".........
Again like your thinking, but don't see any practical application for CAP.
73
As for a possible contengcy support....I see no problem with the idea. The issue would be pre-coordinating with the RACES guys to have them provide us with a radio package that will work in our aircraft.
I can see this as a cool tool if you can make it happen...and see no real reason why we could not do it. We just need to get the MOA and equipment.
Given a Katrina situation where the RACES repeaters are down (as well as CAP/FEMA/Emergency Services) going airborne with a repeater (or even repeaters) of other agencies would be helpful.
Just because it was not needed during Katrina does not mean that the next big hurricane/fire/earthquake may not take out the comm infrastructure.
I say go with it. Start the leg work, get the agreements/equipment in place and exercise the capability. While you are at it get with your state/county/local emergency services guys and find out if they may need the same service and have the money to buy the equipment.
Assuming the High Bird can handle the power load and the freqs are far enough apart...there is no reason why we can't put up several repeaters on the same plane.
Quick question, who's paying for it, because I really can't see the Air Force picking up the tab on this particular mission.
This sounds like something FEMA or one of the state EMA's would task us with, if there's a MOU, etc...
If the mission was properly requested by the right authority (not the local HAM guy, but the county emergency coordinator for example), I'm sure it could be an AFAM especially if it was part of a larger disaster. Carrying repeaters for other agencies has been done before so this wouldn't be a stretch.
I am not thinking of this as comms for CAP, I am thinking of this as comms for RACES / the ham volunteers. If THEY don't need it then we wouldn't have a reason to fly it. But I am suspecting that if you ask them they would want it. And I am asking them through other channels.
Who would pay for it? Well, the hams have even less money than we do. So if they want a package to fly they have to provide it. Who pays for the flight? Well, for training, I am thinking either we talk the next SAREX planners into letting a package fly along with us on our regular training missions, or then it flies as part of good old fashioned C17 funding.
We prove the capability and then hope that higher ups will see it and want to use it.
A ham friend and new CAP recruit already thinks it would be cool to be able to provide live TV images for emergency service use - i.e, take an ATV repeater aloft... how cool would it be to be able to show an IC live TV of a disaster site from 100 miles away - keeping in mind that the IC is NOT necessarily a CAP member...
...we've already got ideas for how to build a package that fits in a 172 baggage compartment and has antennas hanging out the door...
No...I don't think this is a good idea for a "if you build it they will come".
RACES works with local/county/state ES offical to provide them with a back up comm capabilty in the event the offical system is down.
We do the samething with our CAP comm system....you just can't use ham equipment to access it (offically).
So...we could coordinate with RACES and provide them a platform to fly a repeater IF the local ES services requests the flight via the NOC.
As I said we could get the MOAs in place to make it happen....but I don't think CAPshould pay for it. Get your local RACES guys to find the money from the city/county/state ES budget.
If we buy the equipment....we could never use it, except when RACES were activated. I got no problem with flying their equipment along side ours....but I don't think we should be buying the repeaters for them.
QuoteRACES works with local/county/state ES offical to provide them with a back up comm capabilty in the event the offical system is down
Exactly why I said that it could probably be done as an AFAM if the proper procedures were followed depending on whether or not we're dealing with a Presidential disaster.
What certification would be required by FAA to allow use of this equipment on an aircraft? I'm thinking a boat load...
"Please turn off cell phones etc...."
Quote from: MSgt Van on January 31, 2009, 01:24:29 PM
What certification would be required by FAA to allow use of this equipment on an aircraft? I'm thinking a boat load...
"Please turn off cell phones etc...."
Good question. Fortunately there are models to follow. I am aware of at least one RACES organization in Southern California (Ventura County) that used to send hams up in the county sheriff helicopters with ATV gear. The idea was they would send back images of dams, bridges, etc after an earthquake. They may have had other missions as well. I'd bet money they aren't the only example. This was over 10 years ago; circumstances may have changed.
With proper approvals we might fly hams as passengers and let them operate their own gear. The customer would be the local or state gov't the hams are serving, not the hams themselves.
Do not forget, CAP has airborne repeaters as well. For OUR freq's.
QuoteWhat certification would be required by FAA to allow use of this equipment on an aircraft? I'm thinking a boat load...
"Please turn off cell phones etc...."
FCC Part 97
97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.
(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in command of the aircraft.
(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft.
(c) The station must not constitute a hazard to the safety of life or property. For a station aboard an aircraft, the apparatus shall not be operated while the aircraft is operating under Instrument Flight Rules, as defined by the FAA, unless the station has been found to comply with all applicable FAA Rules.
What I am suggesting is that we carry a piece of equipment that "they" provide that once activated requires no further interaction from us. That equipment will function as an amateur radio repeater carrying only amateur radio business. It just so happens that the hams are then able to use that equipment to serve the local emergency services - Red Cross, Fire Department, Salvation Army, whatever.
Speaking as an amateur radio operator, I think I would see the option of having a survivable 100 mile radius repeater available anywhere you want as a big capability to be able to offer local ES.
If you think about it, a 172/182 could easily carry 200 pounds of equipment in the back seat - just find appropriate antennas to attach and we now have a capability to carry *way* more in terms of emergency comms than just our highbird repeaters. WLANS, live television, even a cellphone station... time for us to add a new mission - the COMMBIRD mission (!)
As to the FCC regs below I would answer
(a) I, the pilot in command, hereby approve this installation.
(b) It's a separate package of equipment with it's own power supply and antennas.
(c) A ten watt VHF or UHF transmitter is not going to endanger the airplane.
Quote from: RedFox24 on January 31, 2009, 03:18:32 PM
QuoteWhat certification would be required by FAA to allow use of this equipment on an aircraft? I'm thinking a boat load...
"Please turn off cell phones etc...."
FCC Part 97
97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.
(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in command of the aircraft.
(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft.
(c) The station must not constitute a hazard to the safety of life or property. For a station aboard an aircraft, the apparatus shall not be operated while the aircraft is operating under Instrument Flight Rules, as defined by the FAA, unless the station has been found to comply with all applicable FAA Rules.
While I don't know much about Ham radios and Ham operations, I can assure you guys from the never-ending flat lands that there are some serious deficiencies in radio ranges in the Western US. In CAWG, we have something on the order of 27-28 repeaters and there are tons of places where we cannot hit a repeater from the ground. In fact, airborne, there are places where we cannot hit a repeater. Remember, we have row after row of mountains that top 10,000 ft. In fact, there are lots of places where we can't even talk to ATC below 12,000 ft.
In the CD world, we fairly often provide an airborne repeater for certain law enforcement operations when the troops on the ground cannot talk to their dispatch elements nor the teams in the next gulley. We fly a 182 or 206 at 10,000 ft and relay messages for them for hours at a time. Another use for a high bird, which our law enforcement customers really like.
Why not get Hq to investigate with FEMA the possibility of doing just what has been suggested? Might give those folks something useful to do.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 31, 2009, 05:23:36 PM
. . .
Why not get Hq to investigate with FEMA the possibility of doing just what has been suggested? Might give those folks something useful to do.
Exactly what I am in the beginning processes of doing. I just wanted to float the idea here so I could get some idea of the objections that might be raised. And also to get refinements to it as well.
Keep in mind that if we're flying equipment not owned by CAP on any mission where the pilot isn't paying for the bird, that pilot has to be commercially rated.
I just don't see a big need for CAP support. Locally our amateur radio emergency group practices ARES weekly, with a simplex VHF emergency net, so we are well aware of our coverage issues and how to relay information from one station to the other. The RACES folks practice monthly both simplex & repeater wise.
Remember that CAP overall has limited aircraft resources, and any type of repeater carrying/high bird missions are generally "last resort" IF nothing else will work. It more likely that CAP radio comms would need this rather than the typical amateur radio emergency groups, that vastly outnumber us in HF/VHF/UHF radio stations.
RM
Quote from: SJFedor on January 31, 2009, 07:09:20 PM
Keep in mind that if we're flying equipment not owned by CAP on any mission where the pilot isn't paying for the bird, that pilot has to be commercially rated.
I suppose it would depend on whether this would qualify as a "transportation flight". As I understood it, with carrying people those rules kick in when the person is being transported from point A to point B but not if we're taking person from point A, doing a mission, and then returning back to point A. I would think the same would apply to people.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on January 31, 2009, 05:18:52 PM
What I am suggesting is that we carry a piece of equipment that "they" provide that once activated requires no further interaction from us. That equipment will function as an amateur radio repeater carrying only amateur radio business. It just so happens that the hams are then able to use that equipment to serve the local emergency services - Red Cross, Fire Department, Salvation Army, whatever.
Okay.....to be technical.....RACES is not hams doing ham buisness. It is hams doing EMERGENCY SERVICES buisness.
Yes having an airbourn repeater would be good thing. Getting an MOU to fly their equipment would be a good thing.
BUYING their equipment in the hope that we could get an MOU and/or more missions at some later date would be BAD thing.
As I said before.....do the leg work. Work with your local ES office, RACES guys and your wing ES Officer and get the MOU hammered out.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 31, 2009, 09:06:37 PM
As I said before.....do the leg work. Work with your local ES office, RACES guys and your wing ES Officer and get the MOU hammered out.
And then go work with the radio club who in most cases owns the repeater.
{please dont' let someone ask about a new badge...}
:-\
Quote from: MSgt Van on January 31, 2009, 10:39:50 PM
{please dont' let someone ask about a new badge...}
:-\
Now that you mention it... :angel:
Quote from: MSgt Van on January 31, 2009, 10:39:50 PM
{please dont' let someone ask about a new badge...}
:-\
You just had to bring it up. . . . .
I don't see how this would be any different than any other special type of mission. Just follow the rules and a great service can be done. Think of the posative recognition that would shine from the Government and fed Agencies that we help out.
We already have this type of mission. It is called Highbird. No special training required.
If you operate radio equipment in an A/C it is important to consider that flight safety could be raised as a question if the radio used is not authorized for use in that aircraft. If you have a battery powered radio in the A/C and use it in an emergency when nothing else works there is perhaps less concern if the A/C is flying VFR. If the A/C is flying IFR (navigating by radio) and there is a mishap in flight be sure that an investigation would raise the question about how the transmitted signals by the portable radio could have impacted the operation of the VOR and ILS equipment. To install any radio for use in an A/C the airplane manufacturer is required to be in the conversation to assure airworthiness. Installation of any additional radio in the A/C requires an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) for that radio installation. The approval process will also require that the equipment be installed by an FAA Certified Air Repair Station.
Quote from: billford1 on January 31, 2009, 11:58:16 PM
If you operate radio equipment in an A/C it is important to consider that flight safety could be raised as a question if the radio used is not authorized for use in that aircraft. If you have a battery powered radio in the A/C and use it in an emergency when nothing else works there is perhaps less concern if the A/C is flying VFR. If the A/C is flying IFR (navigating by radio) and there is a mishap in flight be sure that an investigation would raise the question about how the transmitted signals by the portable radio could have impacted the operation of the VOR and ILS equipment. To install any radio for use in an A/C the airplane manufacturer is required to be in the conversation to assure airworthiness. Installation of any additional radio in the A/C requires an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) for that radio installation. The approval process will also require that the equipment be installed by an FAA Certified Air Repair Station.
Not installed - carried as payload - just like the CAP highbird repeater. Turn it off when conducting an approach.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on February 01, 2009, 01:24:36 AM
Quote from: billford1 on January 31, 2009, 11:58:16 PM
If you operate radio equipment in an A/C it is important to consider that flight safety could be raised as a question if the radio used is not authorized for use in that aircraft. If you have a battery powered radio in the A/C and use it in an emergency when nothing else works there is perhaps less concern if the A/C is flying VFR. If the A/C is flying IFR (navigating by radio) and there is a mishap in flight be sure that an investigation would raise the question about how the transmitted signals by the portable radio could have impacted the operation of the VOR and ILS equipment. To install any radio for use in an A/C the airplane manufacturer is required to be in the conversation to assure airworthiness. Installation of any additional radio in the A/C requires an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) for that radio installation. The approval process will also require that the equipment be installed by an FAA Certified Air Repair Station.
Not installed - carried as payload - just like the CAP highbird repeater. Turn it off when conducting an approach.
Which brings me to ask - how and where are you going to mount the antenna(e)? Anything attached to the aircraft generally needs an STC.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7149.0 See my post tonight.
While ARES has it's mission and like most say have enough repeaters.. Well..
22 of the guards "hardened" sites were out Saturday and 46 of the Ky Emergency Warning Systems "hardened" site were down. I am assuming that there were "more" amateur sites down and many still down. Our mission is carrying the Guard's payload.
Ky Wing has had the antennae for this mission installed on our aircraft for this mission for 10 years for our CD and New Madrid earthquake plans. To my knowledge all new aircraft also have FM antenna installed by Yingling Avionincs and a dual voltage 24/12 3 pin connector to enable the airborne repeaters that were bought for all wings over a year ago.