We're trying to identify names of people killed in the line of duty with CAP. These will be added to the CAP Memorial when it goes on display after the NHQ building is renovated.
There were very good records kept of the WWII members killed. But after that, people's names may have been mentioned in one of several public sources (CAP News or several periodicals that CAP used as a mouthpiece over the years), but I have yet to see an official listing.
If anyone has names/info/details of death for deceased members, please PM me with the details. Also, any documentation that can be provided will be greatly beneficial in making sure deserving members are recognized.
Now to open up the debate a little:
What do you think should be the criteria for being memorialized? Obvious memorialization example would be flying an AFAM and crashing. Probably okay if flying corporate mission, or driving vehicle during mission. Obvious exclusion example might be an out of shape senior having heart attack sitting at a desk during squadron meeting. Gray areas: off duty member performing heroic rescue and dies... but awarded posthumous SMV/BMV? How about if they don't earn posthumous SMV/BMV, therefore no CAP affiliation with the death (probably would have to exclude them). Other scenarios? Does just being at a meeting count?
We want to make sure those who die in the line of duty are recognized. But there's insufficient room to put every member that ever dies regardless of cause/location/duty status. Plus we don't want the more honorable deaths watered down by too many of the "Bob was a great guy, died at home off CAP time, but we want to honor him anyway" situations. Overall, I'd rather error on the side of honoring someone, but we need to keep it reasonable.
I expect there to be a lot of controversy on what does/doesn't warrant this recognition. So let's hear it.
Todd,
I found a bunch of routine historical documents a few months ago in my squadron's storage area. In them was correspondence from 1944 regarding a cadet who was shot by a senior member while "on duty" at the Portsmouth, NH Airport.
Here is the text from those documents:
Quote
CIVIL AIR PATROL
An Auxiliary of the Army Air Forces
7 May 1944
Subject: Fatal Shooting
To: Lt. Col John F. Brown
N.H. Wing Headquarters
Concord, N.H.
1. On 7 May 1944 shortly after noon, Corp. Richard Towle CAP serial No. 1-1-929 attached to the Portsmouth Squadron, accidentally shot Leslie E. O'Brien CAPC., at the Portsmouth Municipal Airport.
2. Pvt. Adrien Frenette, CAPC had just relieved Corp. Towle at Squadron Headquarters and together with CAPC. O'Brien were standing by to receive telephone messages and to serve any incoming flying personnel.
3. The weapon involved - a 45 cal. colt automatic was hanging on a hook in a holster in the Officers day room with nothing in the barrel and the clip only partially inserted - left there for any of the night guards in case of emergency.
Orders had been given that no one was to touch the gun without authority. Corp. Towle removed gun from holster and in working action accidently discharged it. The bullet struck Cadet O'Brien in the stomach.
4. Cadet O'Brien was rushed to the hospital in a Police ambulance, given plasma and adrenalin but died shortly after arrival.
5. Portsmouth authorities - Police and County Solictor [sic] made an ivestigation and determined the shooting to be purely accidental, Corp. Towle was immediately released after the finding.
1st Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding Portsmouth Squadron
Distribution
1cc Lt. Col Brown
1cc File
Quote
Portsmouth Squadron
Portsmouth, N.H.
10 May 1944
Subject: Service Record
To: Lt. Thomas Cleworth
Chaplain, U.S.A.
Camp Langdon, N.H.
1. Cadet Leslie O'Brien enlisted on Jamuary[sic] 26, 1944 and completed his basic training March 29, 1944. He was a member of the Rifle Team and qualified as an expert rifleman. He was, at the present time preparing himself to be a pilot, by studying navigation and radio communications.
2. While in the Civil Air Patrol, Cadet O'Brien's service was honorable and faithful.
3. Resolved: that in the death of Cadet O'Brien the Civil Air patrol has lost a loyal and trustworthy member.
Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding, Portsmouth Squadron
Quote
CIVIL AIR PATROL
An Auxiliary of the Army Air Forces
Portsmouth Squadron
Portsmouth, N. H.
7 May 1944
Subject: Fatal Shooting.
To : Lt. Col. Earle L. Johnson
National Commander
National Headquarters
New York, N.Y.
1. On 7 May 1944, shortly after noon, Richard Towle of Wyman Ave, Kittery, Maine., accidently shot and killed Leslie E. O'Brien of Kittery Point Maine., at the Portsmouth Municipal Airport.
2. O'Brien and Towle at the time, were in charge of the C.A.P. Headquarters, standing by for telephone messages and ready to serve any incoming flying personnel.
3. The weapon is left at the post for any individual doing night duty. Orders have been given that no person should take gun without authority.
4. Towle was checking gun to see that no ammuniition was in the chamber. The gun accidentally went off - hitting O'Brien in abdomen.
5. O'Brien was rushed to the hospital given plasma and adrenalin but died shortly after arrival.
6. Local authorities have investigated and determined the shooting as purely accidental.
7. Towle was taken in custody by local authorities and was released shortly after investigation.
1st Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding Portsmouth Squadron
I have the original documents.
Read about two MDWG members here: http://mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=76
Why wouldn't we list every member who died while performing CAP duties?
Sure, the "heart attack" senior isn't as dramatic as the loss of an air crew, but the net result is the same.
I think any debate about which deaths are more "worthy" of inclusion will inevitably get very, very ugly.
Not to mention divisive and embarassing to the relatives and CAP.
Do we really want to nit pick about such things? Do we honestly want to debate if a given death is a result of negligence and therefore less worthy?
Each member who dies on CAP duty has literally given everything they have to give and died while (in the greater scope of things) trying to help others, even if they slipped on the soap in the shower at encampment.
Let's honor all our members who have given their all, and not engage in classic CT-style debates over the details of every single death in a vain attempt to select only the most "worthy" of inclusion.
That would be undignified and unseemly.
I agree, if they are on our time they should be recognized. Maybe just a list of names on a wall or plaque without the story. That could just be for the committee to show that it happened on CAP time in uniform.
I am curious about the legal and op sec issues that may be connected with a memorial, As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was working on a project to memorialize NCWG members that have died in the line of duty, I have run in to a lot of resistance to the idea (at the Wing level). So for now I have placed the project on hold until I hear from wing legal.
^Curious about what you're thinking in terms of violating OPSEC by putting someones name on a wall...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 28, 2009, 06:10:58 PM
^Curious about what you're thinking in terms of violating OPSEC by putting someones name on a wall...
I received a very negative reaction from Wing HQ when I approached them for informantion. and the person that I spoke with had a very supprised reaction to the idea that I had the WW II casualty list. I was basically told that I couldn't do that because it would violate somebody's privacy.
To that argument we should probably take down the Vietnam Memorial Wall...
I don't understand people sometimes...(not you tarheel)
Unless the mission that they died on is still classified, wouldn't this be under public record?
Quote from: swamprat86 on January 28, 2009, 07:11:59 PM
Unless the mission that they died on is still classified...
Are we in the same organization?
I thought so but I am still waiting for an awsner from Wing Legal to see just what is and isn't kosher ???
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 28, 2009, 07:07:29 PM
To that argument we should probably take down the Vietnam Memorial Wall...
I don't understand people sometimes...(not you tarheel)
I am in agreement with you on that one, everybody at the squadron level, including my CO liked the idea.
I was being a little sarcastic, ;D but some CD missions may fall under that category.
Quote from: swamprat86 on January 28, 2009, 07:21:12 PM
I was being a little sarcastic, ;D but some CD missions may fall under that category.
Unfortunately there those out there that just object to anything. When I made my information request I specificly asked to exclude any restricted information.
Quote from: NedWhy wouldn't we list every member who died while performing CAP duties? Sure, the "heart attack" senior isn't as dramatic as the loss of an air crew, but the net result is the same. I think any debate about which deaths are more "worthy" of inclusion will inevitably get very, very ugly.
I think you skimmed over the "at home" part. There is no debate about worthiness, it's a matter of were they "clocked in" on a CAP duty. That's pretty clear. Every name would get the same amount of flourish on the memorial I'd imagine.
The means of death need not be noted on the memorial, only on the memorial's application to varify they were indeed performing a service to CAP at the time of death. Unforunately, a 60-year member who dies at home of old age would not be on this particular memorial.
And legal? Pshaw. As a courtesy, make an effort to contact a family member for permission. And even if a problem evolves later, names can be (painstakingly) removed or covered.
This is a great concept, and I look forward to seeing it someday!
Quote from: alamrcn on January 28, 2009, 09:20:16 PM... a 60-year member who dies at home of old age...
Just what is the life expectancy in Minnesota these days?
Alamcrn;
Minnesota Life Expectancy? Is at least twice normal. Everyone is frozen half a year and thawed in time to be hit during tornado season. Then life goes on hold during pot-hole repair season... so figure on double, at a minimum.
Quote from: alamrcn on January 28, 2009, 09:20:16 PM
I think you skimmed over the "at home" part. There is no debate about worthiness, it's a matter of were they "clocked in" on a CAP duty.
Nope, go back and re-read the OP and noted where Col Engleman said:
Quote from: PlaneFlyr on January 28, 2009, 03:56:34 PM
[ . . .] What do you think should be the criteria for being memorialized? Obvious memorialization example would be flying an AFAM and crashing. Probably okay if flying corporate mission, or driving vehicle during mission. Obvious exclusion example might be an out of shape senior having heart attack sitting at a desk during squadron meeting. [. . .]
Emphasis added.
Which was what I was addressing. He specifically invited a discussion about who should be included, and who should be excluded.
And it seems intutitively obvious that members who die "off the clock" need not be included, because we all die and othewise the memorial is simply a listing of everyone who has ever been in CAP.
I know on-duty heart attack deaths are included on memorials for law enforcement officers and I am pretty sure this is the case for firefighters as well (I know for a fact that heart-attack deaths are included with wildland firefighter death statistics). If they were wearing a CAP uniform when they died, they should be included no matter the cause.
Todd,
For several years, I've been researching California Wing members killed while serving in CAP. Some were on search missions, several on photo-flights, several on instructional flights, etc. There are well over 24 names, and I still have a number of reported crashes with no names available. I made up a large poster with the names, and display it each year at the wing conference. Once I confirm a few more names I'd like to engrave the names on a plaque in the shape of our wing patch.
I'd be more than happy to send you the list.
FWIW, our state Office of Emergency Services finally built a memorial in Sacramento to volunteers killed on ES missions. CAP's list far outnumbered the other agencies! In fact, I was told by our liaison to OES that he was only going to send our members killed since 1965 or so.
Charles Wiest, Lt Col, CAP
CAWG Director of Professional Development
Long-time CAP history buff
I'm enjoying the debate on this, and appreciate the opinions coming in. Keep it up.
Since the goal is to honor all those "on the clock", I think I can agree about heart attack during meeting.
Now a couple other scenarios I'm undecided about:
Member doing something stupid or discrediting to CAP? (ie - badly violating regs or law at the time, doing aerobatics, "hey y'all, watch this!", etc.)
On the way to/from a meeting or mission?
Sitting at home taking CAP online training and have heart attack?
I'm hoping to figure out these gray areas before it becomes an issue in the future. I know somewhere, some member has died doing something that will not clearly be "on the clock", and we don't want to slight anyone unnecessarily, or cheapen the recognition.
As for the names, we are planning to engrave the name/rank/wing on metal plates affixed to the base of the memorial. The only time it was displayed (Aug 08 NB meeting) there were no names on it. There's no current plan to mention how the person died. However, we'll probably keep a record of each in case someone needs to know.
I would ask the question, "Are they covered by our insurance when the incident happened?" as the qualifier for some of the grey areas. Clearly someone sitting at home in their bunny slippers on the computer wouldn't qualify unless they were working on a mission (i.e. IC, etc). Recklessness would be a touchy area and would probably be best answered by looking at what similar organizations that do this handle those situations.
I think that if you go down the road of trying to determine if the "member doing something stupid or discrediting to CAP" as a bench mark you are going to find that is going to be a very sticky situation.
A lot (if not most) of the deaths related to CAP members can be chalked up to some sort of negligence on the part of the people involved.
The last two aircraft accident deaths all had some sort of negligence involved. The one up in MNWG (IIRC) they were too low and too slow and the one here at NVWG was CFIT.
If we start drawing a negligence line you are going to get a lot of people bent out of shape.
An intresting question would be.....how do we handle suicide on CAP time. A few years back there was a squadron in Florida on a trip (I think the squadron was from GAWG or somewhere) one of the cadets had a break-down and killed herself. They were definatly on CAP time......does she go on the wall or not?
Do you see the problem with trying to include or exclude inviduals based on a lot of subjective variables.
I would suggest to keep if simple. If the death (or the incident that eventually lead to death) happend on CAP time...put them on the wall.
The criteria that I am using for my project is Duty related death on CAP time. That includes death from injuries received in connection with CAP duties.
Sorry, I'm the one that skimmed some of the OP ;)
And by 60-year member, I meant 60 years of service - not age, which would probably be 75-85 at that point.
No one is ever going to be able to nail down exact requirements in black and white. The best you can do is have a "request review board" and it case-by-case. But certainly, some kind of short Mission Statement is in order.
I kinda like the "as a result of injuries while on CAP duty" idea. I guess that is the nice way to say "caused by what they were doing for CAP, stresses of command not included" - re, heart attack!
And certainly banging one's head on hard objects won't count either, caused by the stresses of CAP ;D
I agree that if you start trying to parse "stupidity", you're just going down a bad road. Don't make any judgemenet calls -- If it was on "CAP" time, count it.
In regards to suicide while on CAP time --- I would probably ask if suicide deaths that occurred in Vietnam are on the big wall. If yes, we probably should follow that example and put them on ours.
I honestly believe that 'Corporate CAP NHQ" is embarrassed because they have an absolutely shoddy record of keeping those or any documents. They may not know all the names. I was reading a New Jersey document that stated 70 Cap members were killed in WWII. Are they paid homage, or respected, it is down right despicable of National HQs lack of sensitivity to the Serving members of CAP. Just who were the poor guys who died in the cold water of the Atlantic while looking for German subs?
It might be a public embarrassment to CAP, I know of one case where the crew returning from a mission were killed and insurance was denied due to some pencil neck BS from the air force, one crews wife did receive money when she sued. maybe there are many cases of Insurance denial. I think CAP is acting like a greedy secretive (in a bad way) company.
I don't use opsec Bull crap, we are not the CIA, and when a person is killed it is public record.
I got my Billy Mitchel in 71, no record?? oh yes no serial number, that tells you how important it was to national at the time, I think they throw away records, important records.
The WWII deaths were included in both our earliest written history as well as in the new CAP book that just came out recently (while ignoring all CAP members who died after WWII).
Quote from: wingnut55 on January 29, 2009, 10:30:48 PM
I got my Billy Mitchel in 71, no record?? oh yes no serial number, that tells you how important it was to national at the time, I think they throw away records, important records.
I hate to ruin such a magnificent diatribe of negativity, but when the USAF employees departed CAP in the early 80s,
they disposed of the cadet records archives out of security concerns, along with a lot of other records. Several dumpster loads, IIRC.
Our current corporate employees have been at the forefront of record retention and preservation.
And I know it's 20/20 hindsight, but I put my Mitchell certificate in a frame and hung it on the wall in case I needed to prove the award in the future. Mine doesn't have a number, either, but I know that it is (and was) valued by NHQ.
well Critical comments about a lousy Government corporation management can be considered Negative, we can't all roll over and act as if CAP has no retention problem, or we have been embarrassed to find out that numerous wings, and National HQ have been under investigation for fraud and abuse of Federal funds.
Maybe CAP needs more transparency
Oh and my Mitchell was blown away in a Typhon during an assignment in the USAF. That was 1975, they had no record of me being a cadet, maybe they should have just said
" Oh we just throw away your hard work and diligence, besides it is just paper" but I am not mad!!
As there have probably been well over a million people in CAP over the history of the organization, it is probably a bit much to expect paperwork retention on all of them. I was in the Boy Scouts shortly before becoming a cadet and I bet they don't have one scrap of paperwork with my name on it anywhere in their records.
That being said, we don't have a records retention "problem" -- we actually have a regulation that requires that almost everything be thrown out. I strongly dislike that regulation and would hope that documents relating to fatal incidents regarding CAP members would make the cut as having permanent historical value, but I wouldn't bet on it.