Well for a SAREX in a few weeks I am the CUL at air ops and probably one of the few cadets since ground operations is in another city, does anyone have any suggestions how to survive in Air Ops?
Make sure the pilots have plenty of coffee and dough nuts. ;D
Seriously though, same things you do to "survive" ground ops or any other ICP branch/section/group/division.
If you are signed off as fully qualified, then the CUL support requirements should have been covered. Comm is a lot more exacting for air ops than ground ops. You also have a 30 min requirement for ops checks. The right repeaters, Highbird, etc, become critical to keeping the comm flow working right.
Quote from: Short Field on January 22, 2009, 11:15:34 PM
If you are signed off as fully qualified, then the CUL support requirements should have been covered. Comm is a lot more exacting for air ops than ground ops. You also have a 30 min requirement for ops checks. The right repeaters, Highbird, etc, become critical to keeping the comm flow working right.
How do you figure?
Ground teams don't check in? In my AOR they check in during the same roll-calls and intervals as the a/c.
Am I to understand that this activity has more than one CUL? Or are you an MRO in the air branch?
Generally there is only one CUL in the ICS structure that is ultimately responsible for the comm plan, setup, etc., and if the plan is to distribute the operators, they are working under him.
Unsolicited opinion: I've worked large-scale missions with comms distributed all over the place and with comms in a central location doing message passing. The latter is generally more effcient and with less background noise.
I am the CUL there is no other mention of a MRO umm we have a ground team base in a different city and the airops base in another I assume we'll be using a highbird to communicate between the two.
It sounds like you're going to be the mission radio operator. A Communication Unit Leader would probably have been involved in the planning for the mission at all the locations where CAP activity was going to take place and would know whether there would be a highbird or not.
Advice for that -- listen as closely as possible. Brush up on your radio procedures and pro-words. Make sure your writing on the radio log is legible.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2009, 11:21:47 PM
Ground teams don't check in? In my AOR they check in during the same roll-calls and intervals as the a/c.
I agree the requirements should be the same, however, we have had ground teams check in on the hour instead of every 30 minutes. Ground teams also have access to cell phones without the FAA issues. You also don't stop the exercise or SAR and start a SAR for the missing CAP airplane when a GT is more than 30 minutes overdue from the last check-in.
Quote from: Short Field on January 23, 2009, 02:53:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2009, 11:21:47 PM
Ground teams don't check in? In my AOR they check in during the same roll-calls and intervals as the a/c.
You also don't stop the exercise or SAR and start a SAR for the missing CAP airplane when a GT is more than 30 minutes overdue from the last check-in.
Yes, actually, you do, if that is your check-in SOP. Missing is missing, especially with the extra communications abilities you've indicated.
A GBD's job is to know where his people are and what they are doing at all times - pretty hard to do that without checkins and reports.
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 22, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
I am the CUL there is no other mention of a MRO umm we have a ground team base in a different city and the airops base in another I assume we'll be using a highbird to communicate between the two.
Who's job is it to coordinate those other bases and the highbird (not to mention check the radios in the aircraft), check in every radio used in the mission, authenticate licenses, etc.?
If you're not doing that, you're not performing the function of a CUL.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 03:05:21 AM
Yes, actually, you do, if that is your check-in SOP. Missing is missing, especially with the extra communications abilities you've indicated.
You are right. I double checked the MBTG and the requirements are the same. Learn something everyday...
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 22, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
I am the CUL there is no other mention of a MRO umm we have a ground team base in a different city and the airops base in another I assume we'll be using a highbird to communicate between the two.
Keep in mind that you are the voice of command, not command itself. I've seen some MRO's/CUL's start to take liberties and give aircrews orders which aren't in my overall plan as the Air Branch director.
+1
No matter if you are the CUL or a MRO pass traffic/messages exactly like you receive it. DO NOT add to or take away from the message or traffic. The last two missions I have been on cadet MRO(s) have added or left out words from the traffic that change the entire meaning of the message. Seniors are just as bad, esp it seems, those acting as the high bird.
^^ +100 on the above. ^^
MRO's are a pass-through with no filter. That needs to be written in the margins of every training slide and pamphlet.
Circa 1996, me and a 9-man ground team of cadets were invited to participate in another wing's practice mission which combined both air and ground operations. We made the 90 minute trek to Winchester, VA (VAWG) from Ft. Belvoir and arrived as the most organized team this place had ever seen. Standardized gear; assigned positions, team leader, assistant team leader and clear chain of command. The cadets got out and instantly started doing equipment checks, placed their gear in formation and stood by.
Upon arrival I hear the need for a radio operator. One of my cadets was really into Comms and lived to run the radio. He owned radios, was one of our alternate net control stations for National Capital Wing, but was a highly motivated "ground pounder". Problem is, he had quite a bit of weight on him and could potentially be a liability. That said, we never deterred him from ground ops.
He answered the call to assist with mission base radio operations. Within an hour, after seeing the comms staff themselves being overwhelmed and undertrained (or whatever the excuse was), C/TSgt Richenbacher took charge and litterally ran the entire comms side with the help of the VAWG comm team. He coordinated air/ground ops, and liaised between the AOD/GOD (old school terms for you younger folks).
For this, I awarded him the Commander's Commendation Medal. He was 15 years old and practically ran the entire communications section which included grown adults at another wing's SAREX.
Can a ground pounder do it? Absolutely.
More food for thought that I am sure this is nothing new to most.........
I ask for the receiving station to repeat back to me the traffic or message I just passed. That way you can make sure that they copied down what you said and not what they heard. Yes it takes a bit more time on the radio, but when it is important, its important to be precise.
I also assign units their check in time on the 5's. GT1 Check in time is at :05 and :35 after that hour, GT2 is :10 and :40 CAPFLT XXXX is :15 and :45 etc. That way when you make wellfare and position checks, you are not trying to call all units at the same time, you have time to get it right without being rushed, and your not "behind" getting to the last unit, maybe 10 minutes after they were due to check in.
Also at the ILWG Summer Encampment, the Communications School (an unapologetic cheap plug here(in its 6th year)) trains cadets (and seniors) who end up being very capable of doing exactly what Stonewall mentioned in his post. Being a proficient operator requires time spent on the radio handing traffic. The week long school has the cadets on the radio handling traffic from before sunrise until late in the night. You can sure tell the difference when checking into Comms on day one vs day three and then day seven. Being MRO twice a year at a day long mission does nothing to train one to handle traffic in the same manner. As with anything else experience is the best teacher.
.02 FWIW.
Quote from: RedFox24 on January 23, 2009, 04:16:07 PM
I also assign units their check in time on the 5's. GT1 Check in time is at :05 and :35 after that hour, GT2 is :10 and :40 CAPFLT XXXX is :15 and :45 etc. That way when you make welfare and position checks, you are not trying to call all units at the same time, you have time to get it right without being rushed, and your not "behind" getting to the last unit, maybe 10 minutes after they were due to check in.
The problem with the above schema is that in a large exercise you are basically doing round-the-clock check ins. It can also get very confusing when you add or subtract teams mid-day.
As a matter of information, ILWG's SOP during every large exercise, including the evals and GTE's, for the last 4-5 years has been scheduled roll-calls for all parties, with base comms initiating the traffic. Generally a/c on 15 and 45, gt's on 00 and 30.
This has been very successful and effective and is what most field assets are expecting.
QuoteAs a matter of information, ILWG's SOP during every large exercise, including the evals and GTE's, for the last 4-5 years has been scheduled roll-calls for all parties, with base comms initiating the traffic. Generally a/c on 15 and 45, gt's on 00 and 30.
Right Bob, SOP, but it is not "policy". That SOP was written by our DC and another RF call before he was the DC. I have talked with one of the authors of that SOP and he said that he hopes that it will be "policy". (please give me some leadway if I am not using the right nomenclature here.) I have only been on one mission where the CUL followed that SOP, and it was a small mission where that worked. Each CUL has their own "mission SOP" and runs it based on their own style. Note I am not saying that is right or wrong. On the larger missions I have been on, you can get stacked up and miss a unit if your not carefull. The time to do checkins is the same regardless if done stagered or all at once. Again I have found that that works best "for me" to keep track of assets in a timely manner without being rushed or missing something in the pile ups.
And granted, I don't participate in missions like I use to either..........so I might be missing something that has happend in the last year.
All of this position reporting would be "mute" if we had our APRS back. That position reporting is and would eliminate half of the 30 min traffic and congestion. By the time the MRO gets it logged, they are not there any longer. Plus APRS would be "real time". However voice contact to confirm welfare and ops status is still a mandatory componet no matter how position is reported.
Getting off topic, better end it there.
Quote from: SJFedor on January 23, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 22, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
I am the CUL there is no other mention of a MRO umm we have a ground team base in a different city and the airops base in another I assume we'll be using a highbird to communicate between the two.
Keep in mind that you are the voice of command, not command itself. I've seen some MRO's/CUL's start to take liberties and give aircrews orders which aren't in my overall plan as the Air Branch director.
I don't think I would have the guts to try a stunt like that haha.
^^^ I would not consider it "guts" so much as some other "qualities".... and it is not limited to cadets.
One bit of advice I would offer is to have any messages more complex than RTB that are relayed from the mission base staff to aircrew or ground team be written down by the person making the request first and then the MRO send it out. Anything that is more complex than a simple yes/no/RTB can be garbled way too easy.
Isn't that what you're always supposed to do?(Well it's what i do) . I say something like ground team whatever this is mission base you have a new tasking, then they'll acknowledge, and i'll say prepare to copy, they say go, and I'll reply your new tasking is to go to mcdonalds and bring back food over.(long long long story)
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 24, 2009, 04:49:49 AM
Quote from: SJFedor on January 23, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 22, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
I am the CUL there is no other mention of a MRO umm we have a ground team base in a different city and the airops base in another I assume we'll be using a highbird to communicate between the two.
Keep in mind that you are the voice of command, not command itself. I've seen some MRO's/CUL's start to take liberties and give aircrews orders which aren't in my overall plan as the Air Branch director.
I don't think I would have the guts to try a stunt like that haha.
You'd be surprised. It's usually an attribute that some more experienced people tend to fall into, and sometimes it's not even something huge. You might have an aircraft calling in saying they're approaching their fuel reserve, and need to come home to put more fuel in the aircraft. I've seen it where the MRO/CUL thinks "Oh this is a no-brainer, I'll tell them to RTBthen tell the AOBD" when me, as the AOBD, planned to actually have them put their wheels down somewhere out in their search area, so they're back up in the search area quicker.
Just remember your role, and you'll do just fine!
I am talking more about the PSC telling the OSC about the need to change the tasking for an airborne aircraft who then verbally passes the tasking change to the the AOBD who then totally garbles the directions to the MRO. The game of "Telephone" is alive and well at mission base. If the staff has to write down, then the MRO has a much better chance of passing it correctly. It doens't have to be a formal memorandum, but at least have them write it out on a post-it.
Quote from: Short Field on January 25, 2009, 03:08:46 AM
I am talking more about the PSC telling the OSC about the need to change the tasking for an airborne aircraft who then verbally passes the tasking change to the the AOBD who then totally garbles the directions to the MRO. The game of "Telephone" is alive and well at mission base. If the staff has to write down, then the MRO has a much better chance of passing it correctly. It doens't have to be a formal memorandum, but at least have them write it out on a post-it.
That also is an issue, but I've seen more times where an MRO/CUL, especially one who is also aircrew/AOBD rated starts to forget their role....
Quote from: SARADDICT on January 24, 2009, 11:21:43 PM
Isn't that what you're always supposed to do?(Well it's what i do) . I say something like ground team whatever this is mission base you have a new tasking, then they'll acknowledge, and i'll say prepare to copy, they say go, and I'll reply your new tasking is to go to mcdonalds and bring back food over.(long long long story)
Exactly - whatever the SOP, everything should be in writing.
My wing normally uses three-part forms, which are initialed and signed by the initiator and the recipient of the message.
Last GTE we had a fairly new PSC who kept walking up to me an just telling me what he wanted, sometimes in a distracted fashion and with way too much detail to remember.
I finally took him aside and said "we need to be getting these directives and information in writing".
Its not only a CYA thing, but also an attention to detail thing, and if you've got acknowledgments in writing on all messages, no one can say "You never told me that."