I recently noticed that we have some variation in the minimum age necessary to perform mission base staff jobs. I guess the theory is that we are willing to let cadets over 18 assume low-level mgt positions, but not the higher-level ones. I suppose I'm okay with that, with the exception of Information Officer.
MSA - No minimum
MRO- No minimum
Comm Unit Leader - Not specified, but since MRO is a pre-requisite and there is no minimum age for that, then can assume there is no minimum for CUL.
AOBD -- Not specified but can assume it is 18 since that is the minimum for either of the pre-requisite positions for this specialty.
GBD: Not specified, but can assume it is 18 since that is the minimum to be a GTL.
IO: 18
Safety Officer - 21
FASC: 21
Logistics SC: 21
OSC: 21
PSC: Not stated, but assume 21 since OSC is pre-requisite.
IC: Not stated, but assume 21 since PSC/OSC are pre-requisite.
PSC is the prerequisite for OSC and CAPR 60-3 states a PSC trainee must be at least 21 years of age. OSC is the prerequisite for IC. CAPR 60-3 specifically states an IC3 must be at least 21 years of age and a qualified OSC and GES.
You got the LSC and FASC minimum age right - it can be confusing. CAPR 60-3 states that a LSC must be at least 18 years of age but the Mission Base Training Guide states the LSC must be at least 21 years of age. Same for FASC. I have an email from John DesMarais that states the correct age is at least 21 years of age.
Quote from: Short Field on December 15, 2008, 11:12:02 PM
PSC is the prerequisite for OSC and CAPR 60-3 states a PSC trainee must be at least 21 years of age. OSC is the prerequisite for IC. CAPR 60-3 specifically states an IC3 must be at least 21 years of age and a qualified OSC and GES.
Was going off the task guides.
And the only management position that cadets under 18 are allowed to hold is CUL.
AOBD = 18
Are you certain about FASC because I'm a FASC trainee and I'm still a cadet?
Yeah, River, some of your numbers are off.
Per current edition of CAPR 60-3:
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, Section 2-3
j. Logistics Section Chief (LSC).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for LSC:
a) At least 18 years of age.
b) Qualified Mission Staff Assistant (need not be current)
c) Qualified Communications Unit Leader (need not be current)
d) Qualified GES.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Mission Base Staff Task Guide for LSC.
k. Finance/Administration Section Chief (FASC).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for FASC:
a) At least 18 years of age.
b) Qualified Mission Staff Assistant (need not be current).
c) Qualified GES.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Mission Base Staff Task Guide for FASC.
Emphasis mine.
And I'm also a MSO trainee and Liason Officer trainee, although you didn't mention that last one.
Quote from: CASH172 on December 16, 2008, 03:18:13 AM
And I'm also a MSO trainee and Liason Officer trainee, although you didn't mention that last one.
Well then, someone screwed the pooch.
LO is groovy, but MSO is not.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, section 2-3
ab. Mission Safety Officer (MSO).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for MSO:
a) Qualified Mission Staff Assistant (need not be current).
b) Qualified GES.
c) At least 21 years of age.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Mission Base Staff Task Guide for MSO.
Well E-Services doesn't seem to check the age requirements correctly then. Thanks for letting me know.
only trust eServices as far as you can throw it. >:D
QuoteYeah, River, some of your numbers are off.
Correction -- the numbers in the Mission Base Staff Guide are wrong -- they're not my numbers.
The online SQTRs now just ask for an age-check, but don't specify the ages. Presumably they thought it was easier for people to try to find the page in 60-3 that had the requirement instead of just saying "At least 18 years of age" or "At least 21 years of age" on the eservices version.
So, we appear to have a standard CAP situation -- There is conflicting information in separate official publications.
Responsible Journalism 101.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 16, 2008, 04:12:38 AM
So, we appear to have a standard CAP situation -- There is conflicting information in separate official publications.
I think in this the case the handy "reg vs. manual or other" argument is appropriate.
60-3 is the reg, therefore the authority.
Quote from: CASH172 on December 16, 2008, 03:46:33 AM
Well E-Services doesn't seem to check the age requirements correctly then. Thanks for letting me know.
National
assumes your unit commander (and whomever he delegates approval permissions) bothers to check the requirements before approving you for training in that ops qualification. Most of the SQTRS have two places the unit commander has to approve before you can finish training. Then the unit commander has to approve you have sucessfully completed the training.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 16, 2008, 04:33:21 AM
I think in this the case the handy "reg vs. manual or other" argument is appropriate.
60-3 is the reg, therefore the authority.
Normally - except for this case.
Quote
From: Desmarais, John W. [mailto:JDESMARAIS@capnhq.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 10:52 AM
To: Short Field
Subject: RE: Age Requirment for LSC & FASC
Age 21 is the requirements, and we are working to correct these issues with the next revision to 60-3.
JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr.
Deputy Director, Operations
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters
HQ CAP/DO
105 South Hansell Street
Bldg 714
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6332
E-mail: jdesmarais@capnhq.gov
Toll-Free Voice: (888) 211-1812 Ext 303
Commercial Voice: (334) 953-7299 Ext 303
DSN Voice: 493-7299 Ext 303
Toll-Free Fax: (800) 555-7902
Commercial Fax: (334) 953-5944
DSN Fax: 493-5944
From: Short Field
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:14 PM
To: 'jdemarais@cap.gov'
Cc: 'jdesmarais@capnhq.com'
Subject: Age Requirment for LSC & FASC
John,
A question came up about the age requirement for Logistic Section Chiefs and Finance & Accounting Section Chiefs. The eServices Ops Quals SQTRs are dated Mar 2003 (same as the SQTRs in the MBTG) but only state "age eligibility" not an actual age so that is no help. CAPR 60-3 states 18 years is the minimum age for LSC and FASC. The SQTRs in the 11 APR 2004 MBTG states the minimum age is 21 years old. CAPR 60-3 was published after the SQTRs.
Which is correct.
Thanks,
Very true my good friend from the southwest. But, until they issue an ICL or emergency change or something to that measure, it's still legal by regulation for an 18 y/o to qualify in those specialities.
Well this is all becoming a problem for me, and anyone between 18-21. Although I doubt any cadet or someone under the age of 21 is making a serious effort for qualifying in these positions, it could become a serious legal problem in the future. I think somebody's gotta get moving toward finding a very concrete explanation and that's also clearly understood across the nation.
Quote from: CASH172 on December 16, 2008, 06:01:48 AM
Well this is all becoming a problem for me, and anyone between 18-21. Although I doubt any cadet or someone under the age of 21 is making a serious effort for qualifying in these positions, it could become a serious legal problem in the future. I think somebody's gotta get moving toward finding a very concrete explanation and that's also clearly understood across the nation.
True, but I've yet to see an LSC activated on anything other then very large scale missions, and, i'm not putting down our oustanding cadets, but I doubt any IC would place a cadet as an LSC on any type of mission that really needed it. At least not as the lead LSC, maybe as an assistant. As far as FASC, I won't lie, there's some cadets whose number skills and organizational skills far surpass most others i've seen.
Quote from: CASH172 on December 16, 2008, 06:01:48 AM
Well this is all becoming a problem for me, and anyone between 18-21. Although I doubt any cadet or someone under the age of 21 is making a serious effort for qualifying in these positions, it could become a serious legal problem in the future. I think somebody's gotta get moving toward finding a very concrete explanation and that's also clearly understood across the nation.
Under 18....you are a cadet....18 and over you are a senior member. Problem solved.
The draft CAPR 60-3 will eliminate some confusion as it eliminates all qualifications and refers you to the SQTRs in Ops Quals and the task guides.
Given the very limited number of FASC and LSCs that are even willing to sign into an incident, I don't think anyone will be underutilized if they are competent and willing to work.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 16, 2008, 04:33:21 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 16, 2008, 04:12:38 AM
So, we appear to have a standard CAP situation -- There is conflicting information in separate official publications.
I think in this the case the handy "reg vs. manual or other" argument is appropriate.
60-3 is the reg, therefore the authority.
Wasn't arguing about which is right. I always side with the regulation, especially when it is newer than the publication it conflicts with.