In the squadron patches thread someone said that it was somewhat illegitimate for Wing Headquarters to have their own patch as it was not done in the military. Rather than get into it in that thread, I offer this:
A CAP Wing Headquarters is actually a distinct unit that has its own CAP charter number (XX-001) so it certainly is as deserving of its own patch as any other unit.
Now, where I am fuzzy is whether the correct "military" way to have done this is to have assigned all wing staff members to the Headquarters Squadron, which in almost all CAP Wings is usually known as the ghost squadron where inactive members are transferred to. Would that be a better way to do it?
xx-000 units have no commanders, therefore members are ineligible for progression, most decorations, and any ES re-qualifications once what they have is expired, as all of those things need a CC. Its sole purpose is supposed to be for parking inactive members who for some reason choose to keep paying their dues.
Wing staffers generally have significant fiduciary responsibilities, and many are also operationally qualified, so they need a commander, etc.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2008, 11:22:41 PM
xx-000 units have no commanders, therefore members are ineligible for progression, most decorations, and any ES re-qualifications once what they have is expired, as all of those things need a CC. Its sole purpose is supposed to be for parking inactive members who for some reason choose to keep paying their dues.
That is the usual practice. What I was suggesting was that perhaps instead of that the Headquarters Squadron should actually contain the wing staff and actually BE the headquarters. That way most wings would not have a Headquarters and a Headquarters Squadron.
The headquarters unit is the headquarters unit; generally these are numbered XX-001. Members of the headquarters unit are wing staff. I don't understand your confusion.
I think the confusion is coming because of using 000 and 001. 001 is the Headquarters unit, 000 is the "Ghost" squadron that is used for holding inactive members.
Honestly, I think it's kind of pointless to have a seperate patch for the Wing Headquarters unit. I say use the wing patch as the headquarters patch, but that's me. But as was pointed out in the other thread, the Air Force is eliminating this problem with the ABUs because you don't wear those patches with it and hopefully the Air Force will require CAP to follow suit.
how many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2008, 11:15:21 PM
In the squadron patches thread someone said that it was somewhat illegitimate for Wing Headquarters to have their own patch as it was not done in the military. Rather than get into it in that thread, I offer this:
A CAP Wing Headquarters is actually a distinct unit that has its own CAP charter number (XX-001) so it certainly is as deserving of its own patch as any other unit.
Now, where I am fuzzy is whether the correct "military" way to have done this is to have assigned all wing staff members to the Headquarters Squadron, which in almost all CAP Wings is usually known as the ghost squadron where inactive members are transferred to. Would that be a better way to do it?
No the ghost squadorn is the XX-000 squadron...wing HQ is XX-001 squadron.
Quote from: D2SK on December 10, 2008, 12:41:14 AM
how many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
I spent a number of years on the CAWG staff. Some of it was IAD while I kept my membership at a squadron, but at some point they put a figurative gun to my head and made me transfer to the 001. I don't recall any sort of wing HQ patch.
Same deal with Pacific Region and national staff. If we have a patch, nobody's told me.
Quote from: D2SK on December 10, 2008, 12:41:14 AM
how many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. West Virginia, in fact, back in the day. But no special emblem to set me apart.
The special wing-staff patch or tab is a distinctly CAP thing. Just because you have a charter number, it doesn't always mean you get an emblem to play with.
(Always thought it was goofy to see Ohio Wing staffers in BDUs with the funny rocker on the wing patch. Might as well say "ranger first class." Pointless.)
I am currently on the CAWG staff and know of no such thing as a Wing Hq patch. I personally think that they are a waste of time and money. It is also hard to wear a patch on the blue golf shirt, which I wear most of the time.
On my flight suit, I wear the American flag on my left shoulder(will die before I remove it) and on the right is my Check Pilot patch.
About 20 years ago there was a California Wing Headquarters patch. IIRC is was never an "official" unit patch.
I think Ace Browning from MNWG has it on his patch website.
Quote from: D2SK on December 10, 2008, 12:41:14 AMhow many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
I am.
Quote from: D2SK on December 10, 2008, 12:41:14 AM
how many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
I am.
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 02:14:23 AM
About 20 years ago there was a California Wing Headquarters patch. IIRC is was never an "official" unit patch.
I think Ace Browning from MNWG has it on his patch website.
This is the one he has posted
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/ca/ca001.jpg)
That's it, I am going to design a "Ghost Squadron" patch. It'll have a picture of a ghost on it and people will be going inactive just to wear it to their squadron meetings... >:D
here you go some classic ghost patches
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/01/science/01patch.xlarge2.jpg)
Quote from: Pylon on December 10, 2008, 12:10:46 AM
The headquarters unit is the headquarters unit; generally these are numbered XX-001. Members of the headquarters unit are wing staff. I don't understand your confusion.
I have absolutely no confusion about how CAP CURRENTLY organizes itself. This thread was to serve too purposes
1. To explain that it is appropriate that Wing Headquarters have its own patch since it is a separate unit in its own right under our organizational structure as a -001 unit.
2. Discuss the more general topic of whether or not we SHOULD have separate headquarters (-001) and headquarters squadron (-000) units. In particular I was looking for guidance on how the military currently handles this. For example are the staff members of an AF Wing assigned to a Headquarters Squadron (or equivalent) or are they just members of a nebulous "headquarters"?
Quote from: FLCAP 834 on December 10, 2008, 02:56:34 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 02:14:23 AM
About 20 years ago there was a California Wing Headquarters patch. IIRC is was never an "official" unit patch.
I think Ace Browning from MNWG has it on his patch website.
This is the one he has posted
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/ca/ca001.jpg)
Superfluous and redundant.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 03:50:26 AM
Quote from: FLCAP 834 on December 10, 2008, 02:56:34 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 02:14:23 AM
About 20 years ago there was a California Wing Headquarters patch. IIRC is was never an "official" unit patch.
I think Ace Browning from MNWG has it on his patch website.
This is the one he has posted
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/ca/ca001.jpg)
Superfluous and redundant.
Hey, I never said it was right or anything, I just said it existed.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 03:50:26 AM
Superfluous and redundant.
Someone got a "Word A Day" calendar as an early Christmas present...
Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2008, 04:19:00 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 03:50:26 AM
Superfluous and redundant.
Someone got a "Word A Day" calendar as an early Christmas present...
LOL... nah.
I are uh jernuhlist. Reely.
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 04:06:48 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 03:50:26 AM
Quote from: FLCAP 834 on December 10, 2008, 02:56:34 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 02:14:23 AM
About 20 years ago there was a California Wing Headquarters patch. IIRC is was never an "official" unit patch.
I think Ace Browning from MNWG has it on his patch website.
This is the one he has posted
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/ca/ca001.jpg)
Superfluous and redundant.
Hey, I never said it was right or anything, I just said it existed.
A typical "I'm better than you" patch rather than "My mission is to support you."
QuoteSuperfluous and redundant.
Super who? ;D
Quote from: D2SK on December 10, 2008, 12:41:14 AM
how many of you folks are actually on wing staff?
that's what i thought. ::)
I am
Quote from: Gunner C on December 10, 2008, 10:07:57 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 04:06:48 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 03:50:26 AM
Superfluous and redundant.
Hey, I never said it was right or anything, I just said it existed.
A typical "I'm better than you" patch rather than "My mission is to support you."
QuoteSuperfluous and redundant.
Super who? ;D
I call it the Department of Redundancy Department.
**Messed up the quoting, but you get the picture :-* **
Quote
I spent a number of years on the CAWG staff. Some of it was IAD while I kept my membership at a squadron, but at some point they put a figurative gun to my head and made me transfer to the 001. I don't recall any sort of wing HQ patch.
Same deal with Pacific Region and national staff. If we have a patch, nobody's told me.
Region Staff wear a tab that says "Region"
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 10, 2008, 01:22:07 AM
(Always thought it was goofy to see Ohio Wing staffers in BDUs with the funny rocker on the wing patch. Might as well say "ranger first class." Pointless.)
(A little off topic, but...)
I have seen the Ohio Wing Staff rocker, but it was on an old uniform. In my last 6.5 years of being in OHWG I have not seen anyone wearing it.
I saw the Old OHWG staff rocker on one of the Chaplains from OHWG back at 04 National Boards in Tampa it was a rocker under the wing patch
Quote from: RiverAux on December 10, 2008, 03:38:08 AM
In particular I was looking for guidance on how the military currently handles this. For example are the staff members of an AF Wing assigned to a Headquarters Squadron (or equivalent) or are they just members of a nebulous "headquarters"?
I have served on several AF wing and above staffs. I was assigned to the wing in a specific wing staff position. The purpose of the Hqs Sqdn was to handle the routine paperwork and monitor the training and report requirements for the wing staff - freeing the wing king from having to personally handle it. Most Hqs Sqdn's manning consisted of a Capt and a couple of admin troops. The Hq Sqdn would track efficiency reports to make sure they were on time. They also tracked and arranged for fitness testing, firearms training, etc.
I do know the Hq Sqdn Commander was not in my chain of command. Normally I outranked him and he was never in my reporting chain. Key point:
The purpose of the Hq Sqdn was the care and feeding of the unit's staff. It had no responsibilities for subordinate units and their personnel. This was more apparent at the Numbered Air Force level and above level.
XX001 is your wing and the people assigned to it are responsible for supporting the wing - not just the wing staff.
Quote from: Who_knows? on December 10, 2008, 04:48:16 PM
Quote
I spent a number of years on the CAWG staff. Some of it was IAD while I kept my membership at a squadron, but at some point they put a figurative gun to my head and made me transfer to the 001. I don't recall any sort of wing HQ patch.
Same deal with Pacific Region and national staff. If we have a patch, nobody's told me.
Region Staff wear a tab that says "Region"
Sure, in lieu of a wing patch, folks at region and wing HQs are authorized the rocker/tab thing on the shoulder where wing patches normally live. I have some on some uniforms. I just don't think it is the same thing as a "unit patch" which is worn in different places.
I suppose you could argue that since only folks in a region HQ wear the region rocker that it serves the same function, regardless of where it is worn.
But only because I love to argue. ;)
Quote from: Ned on December 11, 2008, 01:52:36 AM
But only because I love to argue. ;)
You're a lawyer, you can't help yourself! >:D
Thanks for the on-point answer to one of my questions ShortField.
MIWG in the past had a wing staff tab that was worn around the wing patch. we still have members in the wing that wear the tab, i think it looks cool and yes i am on wing staff
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36338766&l=a0210&id=12124260
Quote from: caprr275 on December 11, 2008, 05:09:13 AM
MIWG in the past had a wing staff tab that was worn around the wing patch. we still have members in the wing that wear the tab, i think it looks cool and yes i am on wing staff
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36338766&l=a0210&id=12124260
That's not the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen but it's in the top 14. This cadet will be a fine future bling commando. >:D
Quote from: Gunner C on December 11, 2008, 05:32:02 AM
Quote from: caprr275 on December 11, 2008, 05:09:13 AM
MIWG in the past had a wing staff tab that was worn around the wing patch. we still have members in the wing that wear the tab, i think it looks cool and yes i am on wing staff
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36338766&l=a0210&id=12124260
That's not the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen but it's in the top 14. This cadet will be a fine future bling commando. >:D
Holy cow, that's asstastic. That's hideous, too. You'd actually WANT to wear that?
me since its my jacket in the pic