I'm about to dive into 39-1 for the answer, but wanted to start another discussion just for the crap of it.
If you have three badges, can you triple stack as the AF does? For instance, I know that you can wear HALO, jump wings, and a scuba badge on the BDUs (still in use) in the AF with the wings above and the scuba badge on the pocket. Can we do it in CAP?
Let's say you have CAP observer wings, AF aircrew wings, and a GT badge...
U.S. military badges are worn IAW AFI-36-2903 so...
But mixing CAP and other badges will complicate matters. In your example you would have to pick between the AF aircrew wings and the GT badge because they are worn in the same location.
The AF does not allow the triple-stack. Army might, but AF does not. Read AFI-36-2903, Table 5.2 notes. Two badges are allowed over the ribbons (or pocket if one isn't wearing ribbons); two more badges total are authorized in other locations but those are specific types of badges (missilier, Joint Chiefs, Command badge or SF/FD duty badges for example). The badges worn in other locations does not include a third occupational/rating-type badge.
I was gonna check AFI 36-2903, but ePubs link is not working.
I just snagged it...
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/afi36-2903.pdf
Quote from: Pylon on December 07, 2008, 07:35:40 PM
The AF does not allow the triple-stack. Army might, but AF does not. Read AFI-36-2903, Table 5.2 notes. Two badges are allowed over the ribbons (or pocket if one isn't wearing ribbons); two more badges total are authorized in other locations but those are specific types of badges (missilier, Joint Chiefs, Command badge or SF/FD duty badges for example). The badges worn in other locations does not include a third occupational/rating-type badge.
The AF does allow the triple stack, you just have to keep reading the notes in that AFI. Depending on what you have it addresses aeronautical, occupational, and miscellaneous badges. My question was directed toward CAP and it looks like it specifies that the GT badge has to go above the tape, so it wouldn't work.
Ive known several USAF members who wear Jump Wings and HALO on top and SCUBA on the pocket.
For example......
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 09, 2008, 01:41:24 AM
Ive known several USAF members who wear Jump Wings and HALO on top and SCUBA on the pocket.
For example......
Yessir... One of the examples I was thinking of.
I have debated this several times in CAP; on CadetStuff and I think here too.
In the AF, regardless of the regulations/instructions, people will wear as many as 5 badges. There are different categories of badges though.
When I was in a PJ squadron, everyone wears at least 3 badges, even on BDU/ABUs. 2 above the tape and 1 centered on the pocket. The army wears the extra badges on the pocket flap, unlike what you see in the picture Flying Pig provided.
In fact, this past weekend for the Air Guard, one guy wore his [army] EIB above his Security Forces "skill" badge. Right below his ribbons he wore his [army] air assault badge. Below that, centered about 1 1/2" below the bottom of his ribbons, he wore is Security Forces "shield". <<-----This is not authorized, but no one cares in the ANG.
I think CAP should follow suit with the third badge. I would wear Observer, Master GTM above my name tape, and the EMT badge centered on the pocket.
I'd like to add that I have found the AF, especially the Air National Guard, no one really cares too much about what you wear. Meaning, if you wear it, most likely no one will notice and if they do, they probably still won't care. When I first joined the ANG, I wore airborne and air assault badges on my BDUs to tech school and SERE school (active duty schools)...NO ONE EVER SAID A THING!!!
They were afraid you would hurt them UK. :)
It's all in how you present yourself. As NASCAR as a CAP uniform can look, having two badges above the tape and one centered on the pocket wouldn't look bad at all. I'm a fan of skill/aero badges but not the multicolored craziness.
For those of you who aren't familiar with what I'm talking about, notice the SCUBA "bubble" centered on the PJ's left pocket, plus two badges above his nametape.
Then there's always the embroidered nametags.
All the PJs and SERE Specialists I've seen have nametags that look like this...
(http://holicks.com/mm5/graphics/00000002/3A.gif)
You see people in CAP all the time wearing triple stacks. You also see them mixing blue/white, white/OD, black/OD, navy blue/OD. I care less about how or what you wear as long as you've earned it.
Quote from: olefido on December 09, 2008, 08:08:17 PM
You see people in CAP all the time wearing triple stacks. You also see them mixing blue/white, white/OD, black/OD, navy blue/OD. I care less about how or what you wear as long as you've earned it.
Because that's a great attitude and all.............
I don't care how you fly a plane as long as I get out of the hospital in a week or less.
One thing that I have noticed is that all of the pictures used as an example show either PJ's or CRO's.
And that they both are assigned to Air Force Special Operations Command.
The one essential truth about AFSOC is that they play by their own rules.
The rest of the Air Force usually chalks stuff like this to being an AFSOC thing and gets on with their life.
Quote from: PHall on December 10, 2008, 04:20:50 AM
The one essential truth about AFSOC is that they play by their own rules.
The rest of the Air Force usually chalks stuff like this to being an AFSOC thing and gets on with their life.
Now replace "AFSOC" with "CAP":
The one essential truth about CAP is that they play by their own rules.
The rest of the Air Force usually chalks stuff like this to being an CAP thing and gets on with their life.
(shielding self from thrown eggs and tomatoes)
But it seems we have members that will put any kind of badges on their uniform, whether they've earned them or not, just because they like how it looks. Some people like their bling. I just wore my ribbons last week for the first time in about 10 years. Had to do a major upgrade.
As long as it has been legitimately earned, and documented properly, I don't have a problem with someone wearing a badge. I've got so many I can wear, I would need a sash like the scouts wear.
I was under the impression that you could not wear both CAP and RM aeronautical badges. I looked through 39-1 and wasnt able to find it but I remember from somewhere thinking that once I got some CAP wings my Army ones would by regulation have to come off. Am I just making it up or am I just to dumb to find it?
Quote from: hatentx on December 10, 2008, 04:53:53 AM
I was under the impression that you could not wear both CAP and RM aeronautical badges. I looked through 39-1 and wasnt able to find it but I remember from somewhere thinking that once I got some CAP wings my Army ones would by regulation have to come off. Am I just making it up or am I just to dumb to find it?
You can wear two badges over the ribbons, if its CAP-only, you can wear one aeronautical and one specialty (GTM/IC).
Same goes for mixing
USAF-Approved badges from other services, with the exception that you can wear two sets of wings if one is military and one CAP.
Quote from: hatentx on December 10, 2008, 04:53:53 AM
I was under the impression that you could not wear both CAP and RM aeronautical badges. I looked through 39-1 and wasnt able to find it but I remember from somewhere thinking that once I got some CAP wings my Army ones would by regulation have to come off. Am I just making it up or am I just to dumb to find it?
You can wear your military and CAP wings at the same time, but you have to wear the CAP wings
above your military wings.
CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 5.
Only on AF-style uniforms, not any of the corporate combinations.
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
I did find where it says you can wear Airborne wings and an Air Assault badge at the same time because the Airborne wings are considered an aeronautical rating in the Air Force regs...
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
Has to remove one of 'em.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
I think that's sinful, see above.
Quote from: MIKE on December 10, 2008, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
Has to remove one of 'em.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
I think that's sinful, see above.
Yep - pretty sinful. Chaplains are chaplains, not GTLs, commanders, etc. They need to stay in their lanes. They don't lead, they advise and give counsel. Since they're part and parcel of the Air Force Chaplains Service, they need to follow the rules.
Gunner
I disagree, with respect of course 8)
There is a chaplain in DCWG, at my former squadron, who was not only GTL qualified, but also a Command Pilot in CAP. Up until a few years ago, he was an Army Reserve Chaplain (Lt Col) with service in Desert Storm among other smaller operations. He had a love of aviation and is a long time CAP member. He was very active in CAP operations and never turned down an opportunity to bring faith to the field.
I invited him to every FTX I ran and most of the time he would show up Sunday morning and offer non-denominational services to the cadets...they loved having a "Field Chaplain".
(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/chpln_cadets_450x320.jpg)
WIWAC in FLWG, we had Chaplain (Captain) Kidd from 20th Special Forces Group out of Camp Blanding as a member of our squadron. I loved seeing his chaplain's insignia above his Master Jump wings...but he didn't do anything in ES as far as I know.
Quote from: Gunner C on December 11, 2008, 06:51:39 AM
Yep - pretty sinful. Chaplains are chaplains, not GTLs, commanders, etc. They need to stay in their lanes. They don't lead, they advise and give counsel. Since they're part and parcel of the Air Force Chaplains Service, they need to follow the rules.
Um, what?
True, in their role as a
Chaplain. So that means they don't get to do anything else in CAP but something directly tied to their religion?
Now, the triplestack is verboten, but that doesn't mean we don't need the help in the field, or mission base, or aircrew, whatever. Unlike a combatant service, there shouldn't be a single task in CAP that a member of a religious order, etc., ca't perform, even Commander.
I know a number of Chaplain
members who aren't
CAP Chaplains, or involved in the CAP/USAF Chaplain program because they joined for something different than their day job
(just like we get CPA's who don't want to be FM's).
Quote from: Gunner C on December 11, 2008, 06:51:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on December 10, 2008, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
Has to remove one of 'em.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
I think that's sinful, see above.
Yep - pretty sinful. Chaplains are chaplains, not GTLs, commanders, etc. They need to stay in their lanes. They don't lead, they advise and give counsel. Since they're part and parcel of the Air Force Chaplains Service, they need to follow the rules.
Gunner
I think we all need a lesson in the implications of the word 'sinful' in reference to members of the clergy.........
Quote from: Gunner C on December 11, 2008, 06:51:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on December 10, 2008, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
Has to remove one of 'em.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
I think that's sinful, see above.
Yep - pretty sinful. Chaplains are chaplains, not GTLs, commanders, etc. They need to stay in their lanes. They don't lead, they advise and give counsel. Since they're part and parcel of the Air Force Chaplains Service, they need to follow the rules.
Gunner
With all due respect, once again, there is a complete misunderstanding about CAP Chaplaincy. There are only two things in CAP that a CAP Chaplain cannot be a part of...(1) Command...(2) Testing Officer.
In another thread awhile back, it was suggested that unless Chaplains become rated in something like GTM or GTL then they shouldn't be allowed to give counsel or advice in ES operations. Now, we have a request for Chaplains to stay in the narrow lane of Chaplaincy! This is a situation where you are Darned if you do and Darned if you don't!
Quote from: DogCollar on December 11, 2008, 03:09:30 PM
With all due respect, once again, there is a complete misunderstanding about CAP Chaplaincy. There are only two things in CAP that a CAP Chaplain cannot be a part of...(1) Command...(2) Testing Officer.
And for the sake of clarity, but risking redundancy, that's only if they are CAP Chaplains serving in that role.
A Chaplain, not part of the CAP Chaplain program, has none of those limitations.
I do fall on the side of the argument that if they are not trained to at least CAP standards, they should not be in the field for ES, anymore than anyone else not trained and qual'ed belongs out there.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2008, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: DogCollar on December 11, 2008, 03:09:30 PM
With all due respect, once again, there is a complete misunderstanding about CAP Chaplaincy. There are only two things in CAP that a CAP Chaplain cannot be a part of...(1) Command...(2) Testing Officer.
And for the sake of clarity, but risking redundancy, that's only if they are CAP Chaplains serving in that role.
A Chaplain, not part of the CAP Chaplain program, has none of those limitations.
I do fall on the side of the argument that if they are not trained to at least CAP standards, they should not be in the field for ES, anymore than anyone else not trained and qual'ed belongs out there.
No arguments concerning training! And you are correct. There are clergy who join CAP who do not wish to have anything to do with CAP Chaplaincy! They are free to serve any role they are qualified for. That being said, just because they are clergy DOES NOT automatically make them qualified to be a CAP Chaplain.
Guys, topic... My sinful comment was simply stating the fact that two specialty insignia are not authorized. Had one been an aviation badge it would be a different story.
Quote from: MIKE on December 11, 2008, 04:06:59 PM
Guys, topic... My sinful comment was simply stating the fact that two specialty insignia are not authorized. Had one been an aviation badge it would be a different story.
Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.
Quote from: JThemann on December 10, 2008, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: olefido on December 09, 2008, 08:08:17 PM
You see people in CAP all the time wearing triple stacks. You also see them mixing blue/white, white/OD, black/OD, navy blue/OD. I care less about how or what you wear as long as you've earned it.
Because that's a great attitude and all.............
I don't care how you fly a plane as long as I get out of the hospital in a week or less.
CAPM 39-1 allows the mixing of subdued and bright color on the uniform. Some people don't like mixing subdued and bright, but it is permitted
in a legitimate CAP publication.
I have no problem with mixing and matching, but to make a blanket statement of "I could care less how or what you' wear is bit off.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2008, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: JThemann on December 10, 2008, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: olefido on December 09, 2008, 08:08:17 PM
You see people in CAP all the time wearing triple stacks. You also see them mixing blue/white, white/OD, black/OD, navy blue/OD. I care less about how or what you wear as long as you've earned it.
Because that's a great attitude and all.............
I don't care how you fly a plane as long as I get out of the hospital in a week or less.
CAPM 39-1 allows the mixing of subdued and bright color on the uniform. Some people don't like mixing subdued and bright, but it is permitted in a legitimate CAP publication.
Yeah, it's permitted, but it looks like crap! :P
And there are a few places out there that make military insignia in white on blue so you don't have to mix if you don't want too.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2008, 01:55:27 PM
True, in their role as a Chaplain. So that means they don't get to do anything else in CAP but something directly tied to their religion?
..there shouldn't be a single task in CAP that a member of a religious order, etc., can't perform..
I just had a conversation about this with my Chaplain and soon to be Character Development Officer. I hope all of my staff chooses to participate in every aspect of the program. In my squadron, we all help each other. I don't have 50 senior members to have every position filled, so we all do a little bit of everything. If that means my Chaplain and CDI want to do GT training and work towards GTM1, so be it. I wouldn't even care if they worked for GTL.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
...in the Air Force regs...
Well, since we're in CAP, why don't we just follow the CAP reg's? ??? I'm not in the AF, so those reg's do not pertain to me. CAP didn't go to all the trouble to produce our own set of reg's just so members could disregard them and follow the AF reg's.
Quote from: PHall on December 14, 2008, 03:40:12 AM
Yeah, it's permitted, but it looks like crap! :P
A matter of opinion. However, it is still allowed by official publication. When we tell people not to do things because we don't like it, even when it's authorized, then our system breaks down. Opinions have no place when it comes to enforcement of regulatory publications.
Quote from: PHall on December 14, 2008, 03:40:12 AM
And there are a few places out there that make military insignia in white on blue so you don't have to mix if you don't want too.
Personally, I don't mix, the two badges I have are military. I wear them both in subdued colors. Compared to others in CAP, at a distance it doesn't look like I have any. I choose to wear what is readily available, and that is subdued. I really have no reason, or desire, to have custom badges made. If there is a time when CAP says military badges are only permitted in bright colors, I'll make a decision between having them custom made, or just not wearing any
Quote from: brasda91 on December 14, 2008, 05:08:25 AMWell, since we're in CAP, why don't we just follow the CAP reg's? ??? I'm not in the AF, so those reg's do not pertain to me. CAP didn't go to all the trouble to produce our own set of reg's just so members could disregard them and follow the AF reg's.
On that issue, I follow CAP regs. If CAP pubs don't address an issue, I'll consider AF regs as a guideline, but not as regulatory. At present, I don't have any examples, as CAP directive has, at present, covered any issues I have dealt with.
Quote from: JThemann on December 14, 2008, 02:55:15 AM
I have no problem with mixing and matching, but to make a blanket statement of "I could care less how or what you' wear is bit off.
The statement taken at face value isn't off at all. The only stipulation the person put forth was that you be legitimately authorized the badge in the first place. They didn't care if you mixed and matched. To many here, your reply may have seemed a bit off. Mixing and matching badges you've earned isn't the least bit off, but "I don't care how you fly a plane as long as I get out of the hospital in a week or less" wasn't even a relevant circumstance.
Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 10, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
So what do I tell the guy wearing his EMT badge plus his GTM badge?
I did find where it says you can wear Airborne wings and an Air Assault badge at the same time because the Airborne wings are considered an aeronautical rating in the Air Force regs...
I think the coolest one I have seen to date was a chaplain who was also a ground team leader.
Not a CAP example but one that's even better than that is there are two Special Forces qualified chaplains at Fort Meade, MD, one of whom was in Delta Force who participated in the events in Mogadishu, Somalia portrayed in the book and movie entitled
Blackhawk Down. One of the Rangers who participated in said operation and Operation Urgent Fury (1984 invasion of Panama) is also a chaplain. How many chaplains do you know of who are authorized to wear CIBs, the very latter with a star? Crazy stuff. A friend who is a fellow CAP member, who is now a ANG/CAP chaplain, knows or has met all three of them.
You'd be referring to Chaplain Capt. Jeff Struecker. http://www.jeffstruecker.com/gallery.aspx#
I've seen chaplains with Jump Wings before, but this guy also has a CIB. That is impressive on a chaplain.
I knew the chaplain at 75th Ranger Rgt, he had a Ranger Tab and all.
Also knew a chaplain with a drill sergeant badge and EIB. Former Infantry NCO.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 20, 2009, 03:44:14 AM
You'd be referring to Chaplain Capt. Jeff Struecker. http://www.jeffstruecker.com/gallery.aspx#
He's the one! Could you imagine the look on the faces of the Soldiers he ministers to when they see the "Christmas tree" he's wearing?!
Unrelated, but why do I have a funny feeling this thread is about to get locked since we've gotten WAY off-topic.
Quote from: SaBeR33 on January 20, 2009, 02:10:23 PMUnrelated, but why do I have a funny feeling this thread is about to get locked since we've gotten WAY off-topic.
Not way off topic, but a bit. No real reason to keep it open, it's been pointed out that the "triple stack" ,an unauthorized (but not totally uncommon) practice in the Air Force is not permitted for CAP. It's pretty much done anyway.