I would like to take the Air Command and Staff College. I was reading about it. Do CAP members take the same exact course as military officers? I mean I was reading about the parts about the joint warfighter exercoses and the modules on stategy of war. Do CAP members takke all of that/
I ask because I am also a National Guard Captain and if this could count for military credut I could knock it out long before I get promoted in the Guard. Does anyone know?
Yes, it is the same couse.
I'm a graduate. It is the exact same course that the RM takes. You will learn things that aren't ever taught in CAP, even at the highest levels. My opinion is that more CAP Majors/Lt Cols need to take it. You'll be a better versed, better educated officer for it.
As far as getting PME for the guard, you'd better talk to your chain of command. If you're Army Guard, you may not get credit for ACSC/CGSC. The army is funny about that. Years ago, you had to be selected to get the credit. YMMV.
Currently, I'm in the Air War College. I'm looking forward to getting past my elective (Arabic) and getting to the core curriculum.
Gunner
why does a CAP person need to know about the art of war and strtegic operations and joint air operations? These are not tools a CAP person uses.
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 22, 2008, 09:19:04 PM
why does a CAP person need to know about the art of war and strtegic operations and joint air operations? These are not tools a CAP person uses.
One thing is we're doing joint air operations. Within 1st AF and NORTHAF, we're part of a joint package. When you plan operations as part of the larger force, you need to be able to talk "Purple." With FEMA missions that are managed from the National Recovery Command Center, we become part of the Blue Package (I was there for the planning). If you aren't familiar with the language, you'll be lost.
Also, it never hurts our officers to be a bit over educated. Right now, they're woefully undereducated in the art of planning. If you don't believe that, just ask our comrade on this board who just got back from OCS. He said himself that CAP doesn't teach operational planning. I'm afraid he's right.
Gunner
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 22, 2008, 09:19:04 PM
why does a CAP person need to know about the art of war and strtegic operations and joint air operations? These are not tools a CAP person uses.
A CAP member don't really need to know about this stuff. But this isn't a CAP course either.
This is a USAF course that was designed to meet the Air Force's needs.
Quote from: PHall on November 23, 2008, 12:04:37 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 22, 2008, 09:19:04 PM
why does a CAP person need to know about the art of war and strtegic operations and joint air operations? These are not tools a CAP person uses.
A CAP member don't really need to know about this stuff. But this isn't a CAP course either.
This is a USAF course that was designed to meet the Air Force's needs.
More knowledge is never a bad thing. YMMV
Why would an Army officer need to know those aspects of how the Air Force works? (Oh & you can get joint PME credit for it, but not GCSC credit).
The answer is the same for CAP. If you choose to never do anything above the Sq level, GTL, or MP/MO, then you probably don't need to know those things. However, if you want to be a branch director or higher, particularly on major missions (Ike for example) then you do need to function on a level commensurate with the grade your position should equate to. For internal ICs on a CAP mission the scale of what we did on Ike, that's LtCol to Brig Gen level stuff. For the AL sitting at the state Joint Operations Center, that's Col to Maj Gen level stuff. I'm not talking about the insignia you're wearing, but the level of officer competence you bring to the table.
We are VERY certainly involved in joint operations on an almost daily basis. We are involved in strategic and tactical planning & operations. Almost everything you learn in the Art of War has application to how you address a civil emergency. The planning, command, and control for how you fight an air campaign in Iraq is not dissimilar from how you conduct the air campaign responding to a major hurricane - except that you don't drop ordinance, and you do have many more players, some of whom present a greater leadership challenge to get them to do things to standard & do what they're told when they're told to do it.
Plus, it's good to have a healthy respect for our sponsor agency - the Air Force. By better understanding what they're doing & how they do it, you gain an understanding of when they're under more stress to fulfill their overseas mission, hence when CAP needs to step up strategically back here to compensate & free up additional resources. It may also be that the Air Force needs to cut back our funding to address some of their priority needs. If you're educated about what's going on in their world, then you'll understand when that's the case versus them trying to add another bowling alley. That'll allow you to respect and support their moves, providing that leadership to your fellow members, rather than whining about why our training budget got slashed for next year cause you can't see the big picture.
Taking AF courses makes CAP a better Auxiliary. And that's good for everyone.
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 22, 2008, 09:19:04 PM
why does a CAP person need to know about the art of war and strtegic operations and joint air operations? These are not tools a CAP person uses.
You are 100% correct. Other people in CAP take USAF PME courses for a lot of different reasons. Good for them, but there is not that much that will help them in CAP.
Yes, I took ACSC, JCSOS, and AWC. Back in the day, in order to be competitive to get selected for Major, you had to take the non-residence ACSC course. The top Major selectees were then allowed to attend ACSC in-residence. There is a huge difference between the non-residence and in-residence courses.
Biggest dif btwn the res & distance courses I've heard of is the current incarnation of SOS. It's almost impossible to get the same effect from a distance course as you can achieve in res with all those resources focused in one place, and just the synergy of networking all those experienced officers in one place.
Take it: sure, not all of it applies to CAP, but the 'good stuff' makes slogging through the non-applicable parts worth it.
Part that had the biggest impact was the accountability video featuring the Lt. Col Bud Holland B-52 crash.
Moreover, it lends a bit more credibility when you interact with CAP-USAF and other mils...
I am currently enrolled in the course and am finding it very informative and contemplative. So far I have not found anything that is not useful o me both in CAP and in my chosen profession. I too believe it should be a required course for all seniors with a rank of Major or above. But then I think a lot of CAP's current problems is due to the failure of CAP to actually teach leadership to the seniors.
Quote from: DNall on November 24, 2008, 10:41:09 AM
Biggest dif btwn the res & distance courses I've heard of is the current incarnation of SOS.
We had guest speakers coming in at least three or four times a week to talk about a specific subject we were covering. Do the distance courses have the same guest speakers? Or come close to the matching the time required by the residence course? The difference is more like the difference between a soda cracker and a loaf of bread.
If you go to the Air University web site all will be revealed to you.
Quote from: Short Field on November 24, 2008, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: DNall on November 24, 2008, 10:41:09 AM
Biggest dif btwn the res & distance courses I've heard of is the current incarnation of SOS.
We had guest speakers coming in at least three or four times a week to talk about a specific subject we were covering. Do the distance courses have the same guest speakers? Or come close to the matching the time required by the residence course? The difference is more like the difference between a soda cracker and a loaf of bread.
uhh, you trackin there boss? You saw the rest of me four line post I imagine. The part that went like this...
Quote from: DNall on November 24, 2008, 10:41:09 AM
...It's almost impossible to get the same effect from a distance course as you can achieve in res with all those resources focused in one place, and just the synergy of networking all those experienced officers in one place.
I said the difference between the residential & distance versions of PME courses is more substantial in the current incarnation of SOS than other courses. The in-res SOS course is so completely different and more involved than the distance course as to not be remotely recognizable as even related. ACSC & AWC at least cover similar material as best as they can, and have a paper requirement that's more intellectually invested than a multiple choice test.
Anyone considering taking one of the "Professional" courses should be committed to completing the course. Unfortunately CAP has a terrible completion rate for all these courses. So before signing up check out the AU web page and asking someone who has taken it what is expected.
Quote from: Cecil DP on November 25, 2008, 03:27:59 PM
Anyone considering taking one of the "Professional" courses should be committed to completing the course. Unfortunately CAP has a terrible completion rate for all these courses. So before signing up check out the AU web page and asking someone who has taken it what is expected.
A lot of CAP members are drawn to the appeal of being a SOS/ACSC grad, then they get the BIG stack of books in the mail....
Take it and gut it out: once done, you're a grad for life.
Quote from: O-Rex on November 26, 2008, 12:54:14 PM
A lot of CAP members are drawn to the appeal of being a SOS/ACSC grad, then they get the BIG stack of books in the mail....
Take it and gut it out: once done, you're a grad for life.
Amen to that. I took SOS instead of RSC. I would rather do that on my time and not lose a week of vacation that I can use for another CAP activity like encampment. I have more fun with cadets and like minded seniors anyway.
Both ACSC and SOS have a "seminar" program which are held on AF bases. But I bellearanceieve that you have to possess a Secret clearance. Don't know if it's available for CAP members in any case.
You know that's interesting. I didn't finish SOS cause I got sent to training for several months & didn't have time to get back to it. I do have a clearance though. I wonder if I could slide into that.
Finish the SOS first. In the AF, SOS is a prerec for ACSC.
Plus if you're a fast talker, you may be able to get the Guard to recognise it as PME that you have completed.
Makes a nice bullet statement on whatever is the Army equivalent of the OPR (Officer Performance Report).
Plus you get, IIRC, 24 retirement points too. That might be important on your 60th birthday.
Roger that, I was talking about the SOS seminar, but ACSC will be in my future as well. I kind of want to hold out & see if they'll open the masters option beyond AF.
You get joint PME credit for it in the Army, and as an aviation officer, I think it's highly appropriate to have all these AF courses done. However, you still have to do the Captain's Career Course (SOS equiv). I think ACSC will slide in for ILE though & I know AWC will fit. My intent is to knock thru these on the CAP side here early in my Army career. (Army LT with SOS & ACSC looks pretty dang sweet on an OER, CPT with AWC). I may still have to do the Army courses, but having the AF ones first sets me up to get some other advanced schools I'd really like to catch down the road.
So far I'm maxing points thru a couple voluntary extra duty assignments. But if it'll slide in there, I'll certainly take it. The guard maxes you at 28yrs of service unless you pop to O-6, and I'm 33yo anyway (as of tmrw), so I do need to make up some points anyway.
DNall
Happy Birthday! ;D
Last time I looked at the ACSC website, there was mention that the course will eventually be opened to DAF and other Civilians with equivalent of Major.
Does anyone know someone in the AF who is currently taking the Master's program?? Some intel would be great.
I took SOS and ACSC, and got a heck of a lot more out of it than any CAP course. I don't really remember any of SLS or CLC, but there are elements of each of the Mil courses that really stuck with me and influence the decisions I make as a unit commander.
Remember that good, bad or indifferent, your Professional Development is a cumulative experience, and Military PME's significantly shape & contribute to it, and will go far beyond the initial appeal of just having an AU Diploma on your 'love me' wall.
I know that I continually 'beat the drum' on the subject, making numerous posts to that effect, but I truly believe that the more Mil-PME grads we have, the better and more credible we will be, both individually and as an organization.
I took SOS And ACSC back in the 80's and they were both put in my Army records. When my records went before a SNCO selection board, the Division G-1 got a call to confirm that I had actually taken them. Who knows, maybe I got promoted because of them. Their presence in my records did get me interviewed for a truly wonderful joint endeavor that I might not have been selected for otherwise.
I did AWC a couple of years ago, but was already retired. It has helped in my civilian career.
One other point, all of the courses provided elective credits on my Baccalaureate and Masters degrees.
I agree with what was said before.......The knowledge is there for you!....Take it!
Whether you feel its needed or not in what you're doing now....There is going to come a time where you'll be glad you had an opportunity to learn such information that you thought you never had a use for.