So, we often talk about the ACA and CAP as well as a few other cadet Programs, but what about Non-Aligned Cadet Programs. These are those corps of cadets that a school distict or campus creates as an extracurricular project.
For example, in my school district three are three programs going, Army JROTC at the High School, CAP (which I have been slowly bringing on line) at the Middle School and a "Cadet Corps" down at the lower grades.
That lower grade level one is very active although it is pretty much locally driven and directed. While it follows military protocols and the like, it is not link to any.
This got me thinking, are there any Non-Aligned Cadet Programs operating in high schools any where? If so, would they ever "federalize," by that I mean join up with the established cadet programs? Would they want to?
Sometimes the autonomy seems very appealing.
What about old-fashioned military schools? I suspect many might be hooked up with Army JROTC, but there are probably others that are "independent".
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 04:28:48 PM
What about old-fashioned military schools? I suspect many might be hooked up with Army JROTC, but there are probably others that are "independent".
Good point. I hadn't thought about that. In these types of programs is it all "made up" or "based on long tradition?" Because these types of things are verboten in CAP.
Not sure what you're asking. Every military school I've ever heard of is really old and was probably originally based on the West Point model. If you're talking about specifics of uniforms, ranks, methods of discipline, I don't really know.
Here is a link to a military school association. http://www.amcsus.org/page.cfm?p=1 . Apparently there is one based on the marine model in Texas.
By the way, I seem to recall seeing something about one state that commissions staff in one of their high-school military schools in the state militia. So, there may be some state military affiliated schools out there.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 05:29:24 PM
Not sure what you're asking. Every military school I've ever heard of is really old and was probably originally based on the West Point model. If you're talking about specifics of uniforms, ranks, methods of discipline, I don't really know.
Here is a link to a military school association. http://www.amcsus.org/page.cfm?p=1 . Apparently there is one based on the marine model in Texas.
By the way, I seem to recall seeing something about one state that commissions staff in one of their high-school military schools in the state militia. So, there may be some state military affiliated schools out there.
I just find this all a bit interesting. I guess my next logical question might be...
Can/Could/Would some of these Non-Aligned Cadet Programs ever consider "federalizing" and becoming CAP or ACA units?
I am thinking that they would have a lot to consdier in that they might lose their local traditions et al.
Don't know. Can't see them going to ACA unless it does establish a firm relationship as an official Army program, otherwise they would be relinquishing their own way of doing things for no appreciable benefit.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 13, 2008, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 05:29:24 PM
Not sure what you're asking. Every military school I've ever heard of is really old and was probably originally based on the West Point model. If you're talking about specifics of uniforms, ranks, methods of discipline, I don't really know.
Here is a link to a military school association. http://www.amcsus.org/page.cfm?p=1 . Apparently there is one based on the marine model in Texas.
By the way, I seem to recall seeing something about one state that commissions staff in one of their high-school military schools in the state militia. So, there may be some state military affiliated schools out there.
I just find this all a bit interesting. I guess my next logical question might be...
Can/Could/Would some of these Non-Aligned Cadet Programs ever consider "federalizing" and becoming CAP or ACA units?
I am thinking that they would have a lot to consdier in that they might lose their local traditions et al.
I'm sure many might. I mean, for CAP, they don't have too much to lose except, like you said, their local traditions. But, since CAP (to my understanding) is technically a non-profit organization and only the "USAF Auxiliary" when affiliating/working with the USAF, there's a lot to gain, too. Possibly such as funding and/or support from possibly suqadrons nearby?
Just my thought, though.
However, what is ACA? Google came up with too many "non-military" (or "non-CAP") related results :-\
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 05:50:59 PM
Don't know. Can't see them going to ACA unless it does establish a firm relationship as an official Army program, otherwise they would be relinquishing their own way of doing things for no appreciable benefit.
For kicks...what might be some beneficial reasons to join a "Federation" like ACA or a Program like CAP? Would either side bend a little to allow certain traditions to continue?
We never really look at CAP as a "Federation" of Squadrons, mostly we do it in the opposite way...subordiante units as a part of a bigger whole. Is ACA a "Federation" or outlined similar to the way CAP is?
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 05:29:24 PM
By the way, I seem to recall seeing something about one state that commissions staff in one of their high-school military schools in the state militia. So, there may be some state military affiliated schools out there.
The Commandant of Cadets at Norwich is a recognized position by the Vermont State Militia. Holding that position gets you the rank of Brigadiere General. The current commandant is a retired Army 0-6 but a BG in the VSM.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 13, 2008, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2008, 05:50:59 PM
Don't know. Can't see them going to ACA unless it does establish a firm relationship as an official Army program, otherwise they would be relinquishing their own way of doing things for no appreciable benefit.
For kicks...what might be some beneficial reasons to join a "Federation" like ACA or a Program like CAP? Would either side bend a little to allow certain traditions to continue?
Sort of depends on how they do it. If they just have a CAP or ACA unit within the student body, it wouldn't change much since only a fraction of the students would be participating. Those participating would have to have two sets of uniforms, different ranks, etc. though. I think we can get the benefits of CAP (o-rides, NCSAs, possibility of ES participation, etc.) that might be harder to do as an independent organization rather than as part of the national group.
The autonomy of being limited only to school rules does have a lot of appeal (I'm sure we all have certain regs that just plain irritate us...) but I think the benefit of the outside support that you gain from CAP or USAC would outweigh being limited by the organization's regs.
Quote from: AvroArrow on September 13, 2008, 05:54:56 PMHowever, what is ACA? Google came up with too many "non-military" (or "non-CAP") related results :-\
American Cadet Alliance. Formerly an organization with Army, Navy and Marine cadet programs. It has recently moved to an all Army program, and become the US Army Cadet Corps.
Here is a link to a fairly recent article about the expansion of military-type schools within the public school system, especially in inner cities: http://www.citymayors.com/education/us-military-schools.html
California has an official school Cadet Corps associated with the National Guard. There are not many schools that participate. This is in addition to JROTC.
I do not know why some schools use this option instead of JROTC
http://cadet.org/cacc/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Cadet_Corps
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/cayp/Pages/CaliforniaCadeCorps.aspx
and the Guard is involved with the Oakland Military Institute, an inner-city high school
http://www.omiacademy.org/indexAcademics.html
an interesting article
http://rightontheleftcoast.blogspot.com/2008/07/oakland-military-institute.html
BTW, California expressly prohibits any other kind of cadet program in its schools, probably preventing CAP Middle School programs.
There is an organization called Middle School Cadet Corps that is run by JROTC
Here's some references
http://www.cps.edu/Programs/Academic_and_enrichment/JROTCandMilitary/Pages/MiddleSchoolCadetCorpProgram.aspx
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2136/
In my opinion, the whole concept, including CAP for middle school kids, is repulsive, although I can understand the desperation that inner-city schools face in attempting to discipline and motivate their kids.
Quote from: dogboy on September 20, 2008, 08:25:01 PM
There is an organization called Middle School Cadet Corps that is run by JROTC
Here's some references
http://www.cps.edu/Programs/Academic_and_enrichment/JROTCandMilitary/Pages/MiddleSchoolCadetCorpProgram.aspx
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2136/
In my opinion, the whole concept, including CAP for middle school kids, is repulsive, although I can understand the desperation that inner-city schools face in attempting to discipline and motivate their kids.
Why is it repulsive for middle school students to participate in cadet programs. Only a few years ago CAP allowed children as young as 10 to join CAP, that is, I believe, 4th Grade, Elementary School. At that age I think they are too young to grasp some of the concepts that CAP introduces, but there is no reason 12, 13, and 14 year olds should not participate...
It's repulsive because it's ethically and morally unacceptable to enroll children in paramilitary programs. This is America, not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.
And, it's destructive to the Cadet program because it drives out older Cadets. Adolescents are extremely sensitive to age differences. No
normal 17 year old wants to be in a program with 12 year olds.
This is especially true because Cadet rank is based mostly upon written tests, consequently a 13 year old could be in charge of a 16 year old. In fact there was a 12 year old Cadet Lt Col.
The CAP Cadet program began as a program for high school students. The minimum age was lowered in order to maintain numbers. Now high school students avoid the program.
Quote from: DC on September 20, 2008, 08:55:50 PM
Quote from: dogboy on September 20, 2008, 08:25:01 PM
Why is it repulsive for middle school students to participate in cadet programs?
Quote from: dogboy on September 20, 2008, 09:50:01 PM
It's repulsive because it's ethically and morally unacceptable to enroll children in paramilitary programs. This is America, not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.
And, it's destructive to the Cadet program because it drives out older Cadets. Adolescents are extremely sensitive to age differences. No normal 17 year old wants to be in a program with 12 year olds.
This is especially true because Cadet rank is based mostly upon written tests, consequently a 13 year old could be in charge of a 16 year old. In fact there was a 12 year old Cadet Lt Col.
The CAP Cadet program began as a program for high school students. The minimum age was lowered in order to maintain numbers. Now high school students avoid the program.
Uhm... the CAP Cadet Program is not paramilitary. You demonstrate a not-so-firm grasp of what the CP is and does. Cadet
grade (not "rank") is
not based "mostly upon written tests" - achievements have many equal components, which besides written tests include physical fitness tests, participation requirements in certain activities and classes, rote memorization, speeches and other tasks.
I don't know where to find these high school students you speak of, who avoid CAP because of the program's age range. I was also unable to locate any document and meeting minutes which indicates CAP changed age requirements to "maintain numbers." My squadron does just fine with a good blend of middle and high school students - some HS students are new airmen, and some middle school students are NCOs. It hasn't caused a problem yet.
There aren't any 13 or 14-year-olds running around completely "in charge" of 16 and 17-year-olds without supervision. Frankly, all cadets have a good level of adult supervision.
Nonetheless, it's good preparation for the real world. People can and often do have bosses and supervisors who are much younger than they are. Heck, even in the military, NCOs and SNCOs can and do report to officers who can be much younger than them. Learning respect for the system that is in place is a good lesson to learn.
And comparing youth enrolling into a leadership-developing cadet program to the youth propaganda groups of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany just seals the argument for me that you have no clue about what you're speaking. Thanks for sharing though. ::)
Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 13, 2008, 06:06:54 PM
The Commandant of Cadets at Norwich is a recognized position by the Vermont State Militia. Holding that position gets you the rank of Brigadier General. The current commandant is a retired Army 0-6 but a BG in the VSM.
Being a General in the "Vermont State Militia" is about as prestigious as being Colonel Sanders. The only purpose of the "Vermont State Militia" is to give fake commissions to the faculty at Norwich. Otherwise there is no "Vermont State Militia".
Adults who run the "California Cadet Corps" are given official state commissions in that Corps (not the National Guard or the State Military Reserve). Evert school principal can be a Colonel!
Actually there is a Vermont State Guard which is a legit State Defense Force. Granted, they don't have a particularly great reputation and got slammed pretty hard in a report on border security by a congressman a year or two ago. Nevertheless, they are "real".
I suspect that the commission you talked about is as a Colonel of the unorganized militia. All Governor's have the authority to grant such commissions, though not many do.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 20, 2008, 11:33:31 PM
Actually there is a Vermont State Guard which is a legit State Defense Force. Granted, they don't have a particularly great reputation and got slammed pretty hard in a report on border security by a congressman a year or two ago. Nevertheless, they are "real".
I suspect that the commission you talked about is as a Colonel of the unorganized militia. All Governor's have the authority to grant such commissions, though not many do.
I'm not sure there is a official Vermont State Guard anymore. There doesn't seem to be any reference to it on official state pages. There are a couple nongovernmental web pages. A recruitment page lists a yahoo.com email address. This might be an unofficial rump group continuing when the State stopped supporting it.
My main point was that the Vermont State
Militia is not an actual military organization. The commissions are granted to faculty just to maintain military discipline at Norwich.
They were there as of a few weeks ago -- with a web page that was part of the VT National Guard's web site. That site seems to be down. There is a mostly empty page for them as part of the Air NG site: http://www.vtang.org/vsg.htm
Update: This news alert just came in mentioning VT SG participation in a POW/MIA ceremony, so they are apparently still around sans website: http://www.fox44.net/Global/story.asp?S=9043159&nav=menu660_1