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Just noticed this.... Not sure when it was updated but I couldn't find any discussion on it on CapTalk. Lots of info so I'll get to reading... just wanted to make sure no one else missed this.  Anyone know when it was updated?

Here is the link: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/exs_open_cockpit/

Looks like we're struggling to get everyone through the ICS courses, which is no surprise at all to me.  I suspect we're going to have about 5 (  >:D ) qualified ICs left in CAP when those deadlines get here, and I then predict that they will be pushed back another 6 months. 

Quote from: RiverAux on September 07, 2008, 03:34:46 PM
Here is the link: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/exs_open_cockpit/

Looks like we're struggling to get everyone through the ICS courses, which is no surprise at all to me.  I suspect we're going to have about 5 (  >:D ) qualified ICs left in CAP when those deadlines get here, and I then predict that they will be pushed back another 6 months. 

Sorry, I intended to put the link.... woops....   Hopefully a lack of ICs wont be a problem. ND is actively moving on this stuff... though I don't know the #'s yet.

Just as I said to Eclipse last week

CAP is going to be the one dragging its feet just like the "OPSEC" mess

CAP 's volunteers are no different than the VFD's and paid police departments that were chirping 4-5 yrs ago about this very same issue...

Want all those missions we have been advertising ourselves for???

Hoe hard are those online deals anyway???  CAP touts its online prowess.... FEMA / DHS is only doin g theirs :D :D :D :D :D

they are not  hard for adults... may be difficult for cadets....

ICS 100 & 200 done... 700 this week... [probably]

I don't think CAP has drug its feet all that much.  All the standards for the positions weren't really approved until all that long ago and it made sense to wait and see what those would be before putting new requirements on CAP members.  I think anyone that has gone to any multi-agency ICS training class will probably back me up in saying that many, many local fire and police departments are no farther along than we are.  That being said, we've made a mistake in not fully implementing the national standards by not requiring all the mission staff people to take the 300/400 as they should. 

That may be RiverAux

But there are many PD and FD that HAVE completed most of the online courses

I used to track this in my former life,  many FD's saw the light, chirped about it, but when on and did them and now are getting their grants and whatnot thru USFA Fire Grants and other Fed grants.  The old carrot sure brings Uncle Sugar's money to the door when folks complete these.  So like I have stated before maybe CAP should be on board.  It's a simple(?) as following AALLLLL those CAPr's , ICL, and others.  CAP likes the paperwork JUST like the Feds do, so do some more

What I mean by CAP dragging its feet......  The reminders to get them done.  Granted I am SURE there many PD's, FD's, VFD's, etc still dragging their feet.  BUT there many more of them than there are us and that is a fact

I can say that 300 / 400 aren't really that bad, probably easier than the Inland SAR Course from what I have been told.  Took em two years ago before they were on CAP's radar, now it seems to be the buuuuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quote from: RiverAux on September 07, 2008, 05:45:50 PM
That being said, we've made a mistake in not fully implementing the national standards by not requiring all the mission staff people to take the 300/400 as they should. 

I have mixed thoughts on this, especially those in CAP who simply think by snapping their fingers members will rush off and complete this requirement.  One difference between CAP and other agencies is that our members volunteer.  It's not a paid work day for them.  Good and dedicated people are hunting around for ways in which to complete this requirement in a timely manner while minimizing financial and time pressures. 

Recommend that future planners within CAP spend as much time (or more) determining "how" something will be accomplished as "what" will be accomplished. 

I've completed all but the 400 course (scheduled to complete that training in the next month).  There is valuable information and the networking opportunities of the 300 & 400 courses seems useful. 

My main concern remains that mission qualified people will loose (hopefully on a temporary basis) ES qualification and opportunities for mission participation because training opportunities are not plentiful and/or inexpensive enough to allow for our volunteers to complete these courses.

There does seem to be an attempt to get classes scheduled, especially on weekends, so I'm hopeful members can find a seat in these courses which can be fit into their work schedules with minimal financial pressure.

I think, if National and Wing are pushing for these courses and that they are as important as we all know they are, that WINGS sponsor these classes within geographical realities thereof.

Squadrons are strapped for cash and, at least in our case, have no funding from above.  Individuals are already dropping lots of time from work and the like to do regular CAP duties.

Sorry fellows, I think it is the responsibility of the WING to take this and make it happen.  And I don't mean one peacemeal effort portion of the state supposedly "convienient," I'm talking about one in every geographical area of consquence.  Also, that it be delivered with all do planning.  I mean, if I'm gonna attend a class where a presenter drones on reading multi-media slides to a group of people who are putting aside family or work time...why might that not be done on line?  Or better yet, not at all.

Believe me, with a month notice and in a relatively close area (say within 100 miles) on a weekend...that would gather lots of folks.  However, traveling 200 plus miles to get a course that is mandatory but that will likely be put together in a less than perfect state...I think I would rather not ever become an IC.

QuoteI have mixed thoughts on this, especially those in CAP who simply think by snapping their fingers members will rush off and complete this requirement.  One difference between CAP and other agencies is that our members volunteer.  It's not a paid work day for them.  Good and dedicated people are hunting around for ways in which to complete this requirement in a timely manner while minimizing financial and time pressures. 

Exactly why I ridiculed NHQ's whacky idea that this was going to get done as fast as they thought when they finally put it out. 

But, as I pointed out when we've discussed this before, the CG Aux had a hard time getting people through 100/200/700/800 and they had about twice as long to do it as CAP has allowed. 

There is no need for in-person courses for 100/200/700/800 as they are available on the intranet and any Wing that is relying on in-person courses to get those across is not going to have a happy experience. 

For 300/400 CAP currently is probably unable to put on those courses itself since few of our people are qualified to teach them, though I expect that to change over time.  And there is no need.  My state has probably 3 dozen of them scheduled this year and probably had twice as many last year.  There is a HUGE demand for these coures since all the other organizations are taking them.  I suspect it is the same in most places.  But, I don't think this will last much longer and in a few years, 300/400 courses will probably become harder to find.

Also, typically these courses are taught on weekdays when the typical "Volunteer" can't go while everyone else in the course is getting paid to fill a seat.

Our Emergency Management agency at our request has now scheduled up a weekend ICS 300 two-day course. 

The crux of the IC issue is there.. IC Level 3/2 requires a two day in residence course that is taught by a handful of people typically during 9 - 5 working hours.

QuoteAlso, typically these courses are taught on weekdays when the typical "Volunteer" can't go while everyone else in the course is getting paid to fill a seat.

Not always.  Keep in mind that all the volunteer fire departments have to go through it as well at some point. 

Agreed, but they are having the same issues as CAP here in KY.   I have a fairly thorough picture of the situation after a couple of conversations up to and including the NIMS team desk at DHS at the Federal level.

The course are just now starting to get organized at the local level for Volunteers.   However, the volunteer agencies are getting GRANTS to have the ICS instructors for rescue squads, etc to be FLOWN in because the resident instructors are piled high and deep teaching the courses during the day to PAID staff.

I thought many Wings out there had all these MOU's established by the regs we cite so much.

It is time to go out and presh the flesh with the community of VFD's, PD's, FD's, etc on their turf.  Too often CAP gets wrapped in its own and how ICS applies to them.  Its how CAP applies to the outside world.

Let's look outside the SAR world.  CAP has gotten to do alot of flood relief deals, SDIS missions, etc.
Now if we are to do more, then we have to apply ourselves to that world as well as SAR.

It's time CAP applies for DHS grants, get some grant writers (paid or otherwise) and get into that world.  I understand we ALL are strapped for time and cash.  The paid world gets the training, those are the facts.  CAP will either have to just get in line, or the membership either has to take the time off or gets its act together and pressure their respective Wing Kings in to reviewing those MOU's that are out there or are supposed to be established with their respective EM/ES communities.  The Wing CC and PAO should be pounding pavement rather than looking for bling and reviewing 39-1.

If people constantly chirp about how much time is spent (non paid, of course) and how much time is to be taken off, then its time to investigate to the locals and see who is putting I 300 / 400 and attend the weekend sessions.  Look at it this way, its the same time you are spending at practice SAR, SAREX, Form 5/ 91 clinic, Regional Staff College, Wing Conference.

Pick your medicine, it all takes time.  If you want to play in the big ICS world, you got to pay your dues there, too.  The paid and volunteer folks have no choice in the matter, at the responder level.  I f CAP wants to keep being viable in this arena, then it's time the CAP membership realizes that we are still a SUPPORT function and not a first responder function.  In a sense, we our a "first responder" inour SAR world. 

Has the CAP asked NASAR how they are doing?   I bet they are having to do ICS training and those folks are paying volunteers to their organization, just as we are......

What make us so special?   just do the training.  We all know the drill for CAP's motto: "On your time, on your dime."

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 07, 2008, 06:41:05 PM
I think, if National and Wing are pushing for these courses and that they are as important as we all know they are, that WINGS sponsor these classes within geographical realities thereof.

Squadrons are strapped for cash and, at least in our case, have no funding from above.  Individuals are already dropping lots of time from work and the like to do regular CAP duties.

Sorry fellows, I think it is the responsibility of the WING to take this and make it happen.  And I don't mean one peacemeal effort portion of the state supposedly "convienient," I'm talking about one in every geographical area of consquence.  Also, that it be delivered with all do planning.  I mean, if I'm gonna attend a class where a presenter drones on reading multi-media slides to a group of people who are putting aside family or work time...why might that not be done on line?  Or better yet, not at all.

Believe me, with a month notice and in a relatively close area (say within 100 miles) on a weekend...that would gather lots of folks.  However, traveling 200 plus miles to get a course that is mandatory but that will likely be put together in a less than perfect state...I think I would rather not ever become an IC.

I've got to disagree with the Major here.  We do not need Wings putting on CAP ICS 300 & 400 classes as it defeats the whole purpose of ICS.  If people want to be IC's then they need to bite the bullet and attend the classes put on by their state EMA. 

The number one advantage to this is that you get to meet the people who you will be working with in a real emergency.  You get to talk to them in a non-emergency environment about CAP and it's capabilities and to learn how those capabilities integrate into the ICS system. 

CAP has been insular in our training for too many years.  We are the "best kept secret" because we tend to do everything ourselves and many units do not "work and play well with others".  ICS training is a chance to change that and we need to use it to our advantage.  When you complete the training with the state, they put your name on a list of those who have completed the training that the state can call in an emergency.  If you aren't on the list, you won't get a call.  If you aren't ICS qualified, you don't get a seat at the State EOC table when the planning begins.  It's just that simple, we need to do everything possible to integrate CAP into the the state's ERP and without ICS that isn't going to happen. 

If we hold the training ourselves, and certify it ourselves, what does the state have to ensure consistency in the training?  How does that get the word out about our capabilities to the people that are the ones who actually pick up the phones and call for support?  No, we need to train alongside the people who we will be working with in an emergency so that they can see who we are and what we can bring to the table. 

Check with your state EMA and find when they are next holding a class near you.  If you have to take a couple of vacation days, then do it.  Why not ask your employer to let you attend the class as the training will also benefit them when an emergency happens.  Do what it takes to get the training, you'll be glad you did.

WIngs should host ICS 300/400 classes. States are looking for host organizations. Many states willfund the course, if they can find a host. These funded classes should be open to any agency. Solves the availability of training issue, provides for a mix of agencies, and takes care of the funding issues. ICS training grants are handled in block fashion through the states.

I have no problem with hosting, as long as you get a good mix of outside agencies to attend.

With a few phone calls you should be able to make a connection with a local SAR agency or Council and setup a weekend class, as long as you allow outside agencies to participate.  (Your ESO should already have those connections anyway)

Most POC / volunteer fireman have to take the classes, as do part-time police officers, and a lot of other folks will be interested.

There should be no reason that a member has to pay anything for this (other than typical CAP cost of time and transport, etc).

I like AL's comment about discussing PTO with your employer - anything that makes a person a better leader in a crisis, or gives them more background in project planning, generally makes them a better employee, and even if they say "no", it opens up the wider discussion regarding your CAP involvement and potential deployment, which in itself is important as a number of states will be lighting up job protection for CAP members in 2009.

QuoteWe do not need Wings putting on CAP ICS 300 & 400 classes as it defeats the whole purpose of ICS.  If people want to be IC's then they need to bite the bullet and attend the classes put on by their state EMA. 

And just why shouldn't CAP instructors be teaching 300/400 to classes that could include people from other agencies?  Isn't that actually better as it put the folks from the other agencies in a positon to see CAP as an organization made up of well-qualified folks capable of teaching them a thing or two?

The problem I have with CAP putting on the classes is that the classes will tend to be filled with CAP people instead of the other way around as in the real world.  I'm sure there are quite a few CAP members who are quite capable of teaching the classes and doing a good job, but the whole idea of ICS 300 and 400 is to get people used to working with other agencies in a unified command structure.  The ICS 300 & 400 materials are geared more towards FIRE/EMS/LE than SAR or any military applications.  It is doubtful that the average CAP member will have much experience with anything like the scenarios presented, and the decision making skills and team building in a very CAP heavy class will be limited by a lack of practical experience with the situations presented. 

In the recent Hurricane Gustav event, I spent the first 4 days leading up to the actual event working out of the State EOC, planning the CAP taskings, and breifing various agency heads on our capabilities and limitations.  I was the only CAP person there amongst about 250 state/federal agency reps and 20 or so DOD personnel.  I knew many of the state folks from attending the ICS 300 & ICS 400 classes with them, and they already knew who we are and what we do.  That mutual familiarity was a big help in getting our taskings sorted and approved etc., and I don't think I could have done it otherwise.  I would have been just one more guy in a military uniform wandering around the building... 

In my opinion, the time spent meeting the folks from other agencies and working with them in the classroom is the biggest benefit to the ICS 300 & 400 classes.  Most of the rest is just informational and could just as easily been done on line.  I know it made my life a lot easier... 

I agree with Mr Sayre

CAP folks could teach this BUT this where CAP needs a whole lotta learning.  The ICS system has been in place for quite awhile now.  Before one gets going and starts telling us EM types that CAP follows a military system and that ICS follows the military, yes to certain degrees that is correct.

I took I 300/ 400 series two years ago and it was taught by Type I and Type II FEDERALLY certified folks and while I imagine there are very few of these folks in CAP, that is the realm out there.  Until we can PROVE ourselves on things  other than SAREX's and CAP "stuff," we may not move forward.

I am not saying CAP isn't capable, it is a world that WE have to adjust and LEARN from others on their terms, their turf.  Incident command is a little more than handing out MRE's and filling sandbags, its a lifestyle different than CAP search missions and yet in some ways the same

SOOO learn from others and until we can PROVE ourselves to others and get out of our 64 yr old CAP, Inc, we can doeverything mindset, that is the way the Federal funding bounces.  Get to know others and their capabilities........ they MIGHT just then develop an interest in CAP and bring them on board

I will stick with what Mr Sayre because for 3 yrs I have lived it in a Midwest EM agency before I got to where I am today by reviewing grants and working with communities in the wildland fire world.......

Quote from: RiverAux on September 09, 2008, 08:36:23 PM

QuoteWe do not need Wings putting on CAP ICS 300 & 400 classes as it defeats the whole purpose of ICS.  If people want to be IC's then they need to bite the bullet and attend the classes put on by their state EMA. 

And just why shouldn't CAP instructors be teaching 300/400 to classes that could include people from other agencies?  Isn't that actually better as it put the folks from the other agencies in a positon to see CAP as an organization made up of well-qualified folks capable of teaching them a thing or two?

No reason at all provided CAP instructors have completed the ICS300 (TTT) and ICS-400 (TTT).  I believe that's the initial source of credentialing authority for ICS-300/400.  

13 has it right also

FEDERAL TTT certification to teach this stuff.  Don't know how plainer it can get!!

Take the time to attend.  Get your State EMA types to sponsor you.  Its not going to come to you....YOU have to go to it

I guess I'm not understanding the apparent inferiority complex being demonstrated here.  When compared to just about any individual volunteer fire department or search team CAP regularly runs larger operations than they do and has been using ICS or an ICS-like system for much, much longer.  With proper certification, there is no reason CAP couldn't actually become the go-to organization in some states for these sorts of classes.  What better way to promote CAP than having CAP doing a significant amount of such instruction for all the local agencies?  Heck, that would be a great niche for CAP. 

Yes, being around other folks is great, but the impact of having them coming to us is much more than having a few random CAP folks in other classes scattered around the state. 

No inferiority complex here

Just stating the facts in TODAYS world

CAP MAY have been doing it for much much longer.  But again , CAP has to get Federal recognition in order to get it done.  I can't do alot of things wildland fire until I get that Federal wildland Red Card punched stating that I can do my job on an incident

So CAP, just because their feeling is, what we have done is equivalent.... just does not fly

Look at ESF #4  we are SUPPORT to that part of NIMS and the NRP

It is going to be awhile before CAP is the GO TO organization..   It may have to do with the Inc rather than a true guv agency BUT I have been WRONG before

What is wrong with being around others who actually do this 40+ hours a week, huh, Riveraux??

We may run SOME laeger operations but they may or may not be recognized as INCIDENTS or Incident sof National Significance as everything has beeb drummed up in the last 5-7 years

But to say CAP could handle it....Maybe  but let the incident be the driver... I would not want CAP ICing my fire unless they had the same background as I did and trained to that STANDARD!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoteagain , CAP has to get Federal recognition in order to get it done. 

CAP doesn't need "recognition", the individual instructors do...and just why did you assume I was proposing the CAP members start willy nilly teaching courses without the proper credentials?

QuoteWhat is wrong with being around others who actually do this 40+ hours a week, huh, Riveraux??

Nothing, but there is no reason that it has to be on their turf...and we were actually talking more about this in context of other volunteers...

QuoteWe may run SOME laeger operations but they may or may not be recognized as INCIDENTS or Incident sof National Significance as everything has beeb drummed up in the last 5-7 years

What does that have to do with anything.  The chief of Podunk Volunteer Fire Dept. won't be either, but he has to take the same courses even though he won't ever be put in charge of more than a dozen or more people, unlike many CAP ICs. 

QuoteI would not want CAP ICing my fire unless they had the same background as I did and trained to that STANDARD!!!!!!!!!!!

Where did anyone say anything about CAP running fires.  We're talking about the training, which is geared towards towards handling any incident.  A CAP member can be just as, if not more qualified, than many others who will eventually be teaching these courses. 

Keep in mind that this was brought up in the context of making sure CAP people are trained and after this initial burst of 300/400 courses they will not be anywhere near as easy to attend and getting CAP people qualified to teach them seems important to me.  And if we're teaching a class primarily for our folks it is to our advantage to bring in others.