CAP Talk

Okay, it is obvious that there are a number of people in CAP who don't know how to properly wear the CAP uniforms that they own.  We have argued pretty extensively about various ways to address that situation (or whether it is a problem at all), but the military long ago figured out the best way to do this is to inspect uniforms every now and again. 

So, I'm thinking that CAP might want to take a page from that book and insert a section in 39-1 requiring that squadrons conduct an inspection of one of the military style uniforms worn by their members on a quarterly basis.  This might look something like this:
1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

On a designated night within that quarter every senior member who owns one of those uniforms would need to wear it to the squadron meeting where a formal inspection would be held. 

I'm definetely not proposing that any paperwork be associated with the inspections. 

Yes, squadron commanders should always be on the lookout for uniform problems and that should continue, but formal inspections are a proven method to back regular oversight. 

Thoughts?

^ Grey pants and the polo are sure easy to screw up! 

Since Cadets are not even required to own anything but the blues (if they can get them for free) and there is no mandate for any uniform for Seniors.........this idea would probably be fought on every level. 

Quote^ Grey pants and the polo are sure easy to screw up! 

I just threw them in to round out a 2-year cycle.  But.....
1.  shirts and pants can be horribly wrinkled
2.  they might not be wearing black shoes
3.  threads could be hanging all over the place
4.  could have the wrong rating embroidered on the shirt
5.  could have wrong belts
6.  too many pagers/cell phones on the belt
7.  shoes in disrepair
8.  rips in pants/shirts
9.  could be wearing blue jeans
10.  Could be wearing the wrong hat (say a AF flight cap/BDU cap) with them
11.  Wrong outergarments (say a BDU field jacket with CAP stuff on it)

^ I sit corrected! 

I say definitely yes.  If you want to fly for cheap, then you gotta play by the rules.

Instead of rotating the uniform for inspection I would rather designate one meeting night in which the commander or his/her designate require all members to wear a uniform and be inspected with random spot-checks at any time. Unfortunately, current CAP regulations lack 'dinging power' except for the most egregious violations. And uniform violations mostly get a slap on the wrist.

If I were a squadron commander I would expect all my members who wear a uniform to not only wear it correctly but to also make sure it's serviceable. As a condition of membership, if you wear a CAP AF-style or corporate uniform, you wear it right or you get sent home.

I don't wanna hear the day when members whine and cry bitterly when the RealAirForce® decides to whip out the judging shovel on CAP and take away our AF-style uniform wear privilege for good. We were warned repeatedly some years ago and almost lost it once. It could happen again.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :P ahahahahahahahahhahahahah >:D

Sorry, I couldn't help it.  The day all members take the wear of our uniforms seriously, will be the day the earth leaves the orbit of the sun, and spins directly toward oblivion  ;D.  

Just come to Orlando and see the show.  I've see almost every possible kind of "wrong" uniform combination imaginable; and some unimaginable.  

I want proper wear just like every concerned member.  However, the only way to do it, IMHO, is to be serious about enforcement.  Commanders may withold "privileges" and, may start ratcheting up disciplinary proceedings until the dreaded "2B" is pulled out from the drawer.  The Air Force takes this seriously and so should we. But.....

What is considered an appropriate 'reminder' to a Senior without making just say 'whatever' and go to an organization that doesn't tell them how to dress...

I am all for giving commanders some more power in this regard, but too much will push some people away...

Inspections, if only for the pupose of pointing our dificiancies are a great idea. Cadets do it, it works, and it really doesn't take that long.. It is also the tone set in the squadron. I have seen squadron commanders that look like they have never even heard of 39-1, and consquently most of their people look the same. Get someone that wears their uniform properly, is not afraid to make corrections, and places more importance on proper dress and appearance and the general attitude in the unit will change...

QuoteInstead of rotating the uniform for inspection I would rather designate one meeting night in which the commander or his/her designate require all members to wear a uniform and be inspected with random spot-checks at any time.

I suggested a rotation so that those with multiple uniforms would eventually get inspected in all of them in a reasonable period of time and also having everyone wear the same uniform on the same night would make it easier on the inspector as they would only need to bone up on the rules for one uniform at a time.  Also, having a night where everybody is in the same uniform rather than the typical hodgepodge, I think is good for morale.

The worth of the inspection is directly proportional to that of the inspector unfortunately.

Why would you do a different uniform every quarter?  Do you think the majority of members have half the uniforms on your list?  Guess I'll only get inspected on the 1st and 3rd quarter... and if I get rid of my service coat I can cut out that 3rd quarter inspection since you don't care about the L/S or S/S shirts.  >:D   Hell, you aren't even inspecting the one uniform I am required to maintain.

It is much more efficient to inspect by equivalents than to separate each of them and inspect less frequently.  Say that this month we will inspect BDUs, Field Uniforms, and Utility Uniforms.  Next month it'll be service uniforms and aviator shirts.  Bags will get inspected at the next aircrew activity.  You can even use SMEs to inspect different uniforms... maybe you don't want me inspecting CAP distinctive uniforms and the TPU 'cause I don't wear 'em, but you have someone who wears 'em and knows them backwards.

The schedule was just an example.  I'm more interested in buy-in on the concept.

A "mandatory" inspection program will not work because you have no enforcement powers.

The military has the UCMJ, CAP has squat.

And even if a Unit Commander decided to do the inspections, as soon as they start losing members the program will suddenly disappear.

Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2008, 03:07:53 PM
A "mandatory" inspection program will not work because you have no enforcement powers.

The military has the UCMJ, CAP has squat.

And even if a Unit Commander decided to do the inspections, as soon as they start losing members the program will suddenly disappear.

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Sorry to sound so strident but 99% of our uniform problems should be corrected by our leaders (commanders and first line supervisors) at the local level. If this were done uniforms would be much less of an issue.

We don't need a formalized uniform inspection program. We need correctly trained members and leaders performing to standard at all levels.

But I think that many of our leaders tend to be risk adverse.

There have been a number of times that I did this both formally and informally.

The first time someone wore a uniform combo to a meeting I would ask if I could look it over, no one ever refused.  If the uniform was incorrect I would politely show them the infractions and point them to out logistics guy to correct them.

The 1 and only time I had someone refuse to correct their uniform I promptly showed them the door.  He tried to flame at me for just a second, then realized as the unit commander walked up that he had made a poor decision, and asked if he could still correct the problem instead of leaving.

I make the uniforms at least a touch point when I do squadron visits as well, sometimes it goes over, sometimes they fight me.  But armed with 39-1 I show them there is little use if fighting.

We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

Quote from: CAP Producer on July 30, 2008, 04:11:17 PM

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Dude, take a breath . . .

You're saying that if a noob shows up with a wing patch 1/4 inch off on her BDUs that you are gonna make her rip it off right there or leave the meeting in disgrace? 

A 5000-hr mission pilot shows up with the wrong "flavor of the month" command patch on the flight suit and that means that he can't be trusted to fly cadets?


Really?  "Zero tolerance and no excuses"?


Look, I agree that the great majority of blatent uniform infractions come from members' mistakes and commanders' failure to enforce standards, but let me suggest that a significant number of problems stem from the simple fact that our uniform regulations are basically so long and complex as to be unknowable.



Just counting on my fingers, we have something like 10 distinct basic uniforms available to our members.

(Service dress, mess dress, BDU, flight suit, BBDU, BFU, blazer, aviator shirt, golf shirt, corporate service dress - not counting minor variations like corporate flight suits, service vs. service dress, and cadet semi-formal).

The 39-1 is 130 pages long!  And it is not "an easy read,"  full of tables and illustrations (some of which appear to be incorrect or contradict each other.)

And how many ICLS are we up to? 

And it gets even worse if you have been around for a while.  Uniforms change -- what was right a year ago is wrong now.  Is it "US" or "CAP" on the TPU at this point?  How many different nameplates have come and gone in the last three years?


Al, I hear your frustration.  But remember, we have missions to perform.  Our uniforms are just a tool to help us do our job.  Uniforms are a means to an end, not the other way around.


At the end of the day, uniforms are just clothes.


Commanders and leaders should use simple common sense and tact when helping our members meet our arcane and complex regulations.  It is too complex an area for "my way or the the highway."

Ned Lee  Spacing - MIKE

My take:

Squadron Commander or higher ranking officer notices a discrepancy of a subordinate member, make a correction.  See a discrepancy on a superior's uniform, tactfully bring it to their attention.

If someone consistently screws it up, suggest an alternate uniform.  If they refuse, take action.

Ned, yes the whole 39-1 is very long and as you point out, it covers many, many different uniforms.  However, in my experience most officers have from 1-3 uniforms. 

Yes, some of the rules for uniforms are complex, but that is just another argument FOR having inspections. 

As to enforcement, thats no different than enforcing all of our regulations, but for uniform infractions spotted at an inspection, I would recommend pointing out the problems to them and asking them to get them fixed in a reasonable period of time and then wear the uniform to a meeting where it would get inspected to see if they got it right this time.  I think CAP Producer probably assumed that severa light-touch methods would be used before we got to the nuclear options he presented. 

Yes sir

CAP 39-1 right up there with Army AR 670-1.... But you know what??  670-1 is somewhat better organized.

ICL's for 39-1 agreeably are as long as one's arm..  The se folks at Maxwll must not have a real gig anywhere else, huh?

And for you tough guys that want to 2b, lecture, kick out the membership, etc..


REMEMBER the VOLUNTEER status.  I often come in late from work to the meeting  (from wildland fire duty and Duty Officer) that I OFTEN forget my CAP uniform, either deliberate or not.

All Sqdn CC's should SIT DOWN and have a class on their once -a-month moral eadership or leadership night and review that NAUSEATING thing called a 39-1

That thing is pretty long, must keep someone employed at Maxwell, if for no other reason.

GO ahead you 39-1 Rangers, why do you suppose they polo over grays ??? Polo you can control...do you have a grey standard we all should live by???

You are correct...  wear the uni right or do not wear it all.   My squadron has aircrews from airlines, natural resource aviation, AFRES folks, flight instructors, blah, blah, blah.  They aren't always in uniform.  Look at the individual and their contributions to the squadron level.


Go ahead and kick the paying member out, that does some stellar things for the organization and people WILL remeber the uniform Nazis in the future..  A little more reason to get you head of your 4th point of 39-1 contact

SHHEEEESH

Why are we rehashing this AGAIN?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0)

Because it is following the same track as the previous thread

Are you really running out of things to talk about River??

So volunteer status means integrity and compliance with rules is optional? For the most part, people just want to see uniforms worn correctly. If they're not wearing them, there's no real issue.

It's rather insincere to volunteer and then decide to play by your own rules. Many people do that. Anyone that does isn't worth wanting. Everybody whines about how people will leave if they're pushed to wear the uniform properly.

How about the flip side? How many people have left because CAP has been a chicken crap outfit, with people that volunteered, followed the rules, wore their uniform properly, did something to contribute? The ones that got tired of being associated with the garbage types that got away with looking like they slept in their uniform. The ones that got tired of the members that the last thing those members read was the application, and haven't bothered to read anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it since.

Apparently, the bar has been set at "mediocre", and many personnel work quite little to acheive it. Don't worry about those Nazis that left because no one wore a uniform properly. They don't seem to mean anything in an organization with low standards.

Quote from: Ned on July 30, 2008, 04:50:10 PM

Quote from: CAP Producer on July 30, 2008, 04:11:17 PM

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Dude, take a breath . . .

You're saying that if a noob shows up with a wing patch 1/4 inch off on her BDUs that you are gonna make her rip it off right there or leave the meeting in disgrace? 

A 5000-hr mission pilot shows up with the wrong "flavor of the month" command patch on the flight suit and that means that he can't be trusted to fly cadets?


Really?  "Zero tolerance and no excuses"?


Look, I agree that the great majority of blatent uniform infractions come from members' mistakes and commanders' failure to enforce standards, but let me suggest that a significant number of problems stem from the simple fact that our uniform regulations are basically so long and complex as to be unknowable.



Just counting on my fingers, we have something like 10 distinct basic uniforms available to our members.

(Service dress, mess dress, BDU, flight suit, BBDU, BFU, blazer, aviator shirt, golf shirt, corporate service dress - not counting minor variations like corporate flight suits, service vs. service dress, and cadet semi-formal).

The 39-1 is 130 pages long!  And it is not "an easy read,"  full of tables and illustrations (some of which appear to be incorrect or contradict each other.)

And how many ICLS are we up to? 

And it gets even worse if you have been around for a while.  Uniforms change -- what was right a year ago is wrong now.  Is it "US" or "CAP" on the TPU at this point?  How many different nameplates have come and gone in the last three years?


Al, I hear your frustration.  But remember, we have missions to perform.  Our uniforms are just a tool to help us do our job.  Uniforms are a means to an end, not the other way around.


At the end of the day, uniforms are just clothes.


Commanders and leaders should use simple common sense and tact when helping our members meet our arcane and complex regulations.  It is too complex an area for "my way or the the highway."

Ned Lee  Spacing - MIKE

Sorry Ned, common sense certainly does apply and the 39-1 could use alot of improvement. I did not intend to sound that way.

I would never send a new SM home but I would let him know how to fix the problem if it could not be fixed on the spot and give him my tailor's number if needed.

Now the Capt that has been around a while and flagrantly violates the regs. He would go home.

My last post post was a good example of "needing to take a pause away from the keyboard before posting." :)

Now as to the 39-1. It is what it is, but there are some creative options to help guide members (Especially new members) in wearing the uniform(s) correctly.

I don't have the time but perhaps a series of videos that show how to wear the uniform (based on Capt Corway's excellent guides) would be a good place to start.

Have them hosted on CAPChannel and people can download them with the guides.  You now have a easy to use guide when putting your uniform together or some good hip pocket training.

I got the idea from the USCG. They  did one with their BDU like uniform and It was simple(powerpoint slides, stills and video with a voiceover) but effective. I have the video somewhere but don't remember where I got it.

See Hawk

I knew a would get a rise....

REAd I did say  if your going to wear the uni, wear it right.

CAP may be getting long in the tooth...What happened if it alll went away????

Sure think there'd be  ALOT of tears

Nowhere did I infer playing by ones own rules, did those other really quit because of the garbage types or was it the GOB flying network that required in excess of Commercial PTS's, how about time, fuel, and expense, family life, professional life, etc

Certainly I have struck a cord with some or someone--- But I do not consider myself garbage, SIR!!

Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

Quote from: IceNine on July 30, 2008, 05:40:20 PM
Why are we rehashing this AGAIN?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0)

Because it is following the same track as the previous thread

Are you really running out of things to talk about River??

That thread was from a year and a half ago.  Given the dramatic increase in CAPTalk membership since that time I thought it was appropriate to bring back, along with a poll to see how current people thought about it.  Its not like it was just 2 months ago.  Are we only allowed 1 thread per topic over the entire history of CAPTalk? 

Quote from: Stonewall on July 30, 2008, 06:17:45 PM
Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

:clap: True, and one would think rather embarassing.

Quote from: IceNine on July 30, 2008, 04:26:29 PM
We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

Interesting. I have suggested a similar process before to my chain. They were afraid that the seniors would get offended by being inspected and/or taught by a cadet...

Quote from: heliodoc on July 30, 2008, 06:02:29 PM
See Hawk

I knew a would get a rise....

REAd I did say  if your going to wear the uni, wear it right.

CAP may be getting long in the tooth...What happened if it alll went away????

Sure think there'd be  ALOT of tears

Nowhere did I infer playing by ones own rules, did those other really quit because of the garbage types or was it the GOB flying network that required in excess of Commercial PTS's, how about time, fuel, and expense, family life, professional life, etc

Certainly I have struck a cord with some or someone--- But I do not consider myself garbage, SIR!!

Not sure how you define a "rise", merely food for thought.

Nobody actually seems to consider those high quality people that have left over the lower standards. A lot has grown lax. There are squadrons that fall in numbers and are getting deactivated because the quality people are leaving. That means a community that no longer has that support. They no longer have a beneficial program for youth.

From what I've read on this board, a few are going CG Aux. I've even considered it, there's a good size lake with a unit only a few miles from where I live. Some are probably going to the Red Cross. Still others State Guard. We're hemmoraghing people. We shouldn't tolerate mediocrity simply because we have paying members.

You want the folks that are contributing whole heartedly, not defining their limits. They're the ones that answer the call in the wee hours of the morning, the ones that take time off to go to encampment or courses, the ones that are there for the occasional Saturday meeting to cover things that two and a half hours a week doesn't.

Coming in late from work? Not an issue. But if you don't have time to change, then don't work with cadets. Because if you don't have time to change, you don't have time to conduct a good cadet program.

Quote from: Stonewall on July 30, 2008, 06:17:45 PM
Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

I'll certainly agree with that one.

Quote from: DC on July 30, 2008, 06:46:52 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on July 30, 2008, 06:17:45 PM
Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

:clap: True, and one would think rather embarassing.

Quote from: IceNine on July 30, 2008, 04:26:29 PM
We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

Interesting. I have suggested a similar process before to my chain. They were afraid that the seniors would get offended by being inspected and/or taught by a cadet...

Being afraid of our seniors being offended is the fallout from a broken system.  I am of the impression that as long as the cadets are instructed on appropriate procedure in correcting superiors there is no problem.

I would of course been the first senior inspected every time to set the precedent.  I also had the commander and several other well respected staff officers jump in and get inspected as well so that no one could say well "he didn't have to" and the like

In the late 90s, my squadron boasted 2 full cadet flights, a full T-Flight and a full senior member flight.  Yes, we stood in formation at 1930 every meeting night.  And yes, the Deputy Commander for Seniors would perform a "walk through inspection" of the senior members.  Most of the time the seniors were in the uniform of the day, so it made for an "official" looking military uniform inspection. 

Difference is, it wasn't ever described as mandatory.  We just did it because the cadets were doing it, so it caught on and became habit/SOP.  For years, we (seniors) stood in formation and conducted uniform inspections as a separate flight.  Cool thing is, no one ever b*tched about it.  Even if they were in CAP polos, they'd still get inspected.  Even cooler, the DCS would make appropriate corrections and most of the time they'd get fixed.  Why?  Because we did it right...

Heck, I'd be happy if 39-1 just had a section strongly RECOMMENDING some sort of regular uniform inspection process for officers using some variation of the schedule I proposed or something similar. 

We had a Professional Development Officer who announced Class Bs or Aviator Shirt Uniform for one of his meeting nights. He had us stand in formation and gave us a proper inspection. His take on the gray slacks was there was some room for variation. The only ones that fit me are darker than medium gray. I'm careful to make my appearance correct. If they want uniformity with the Corporate Uniform it would be more workable with the blue and white shirt uniform. I would feel more inclined to be in spec with that one.

Quote from: RiverAux on July 30, 2008, 03:44:49 AM
Okay, it is obvious that there are a number of people in CAP who don't know how to properly wear the CAP uniforms that they own.  We have argued pretty extensively about various ways to address that situation (or whether it is a problem at all), but the military long ago figured out the best way to do this is to inspect uniforms every now and again. 

So, I'm thinking that CAP might want to take a page from that book and insert a section in 39-1 requiring that squadrons conduct an inspection of one of the military style uniforms worn by their members on a quarterly basis.  This might look something like this:
1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

On a designated night within that quarter every senior member who owns one of those uniforms would need to wear it to the squadron meeting where a formal inspection would be held. 

I'm definetely not proposing that any paperwork be associated with the inspections. 

Yes, squadron commanders should always be on the lookout for uniform problems and that should continue, but formal inspections are a proven method to back regular oversight. 

Thoughts?

Useless......I am only rerquired to maintain a "uniform" not a closet full of them.  So If I only own a polo and gray uniform...you inspect me once every two years....pretty useless.

Why not hold squadron commanders accountable for their people not being able to wear their uniform properly.  I would say if you fine squadrons $5 for each gross uniform violation (I don't mean crooked gig line, or wings .56" over ribbons vice .5" but volations like hard rank on USAF style uniforms or beards with flight suits) noticed at a group/wing/natonal/public event it would not take long for squadron commanders to put their feet down on the repeat offendors.

Mandating that a squadron CC do quartly inspections does nothing...because the squadron CC should be constantly inspecting and correcting his members.....Lining up the squadron every 3 months just waistes valuable war story time.

This is ridiculous...

If there were one uniform that everyone wore, then I could see this sort of thing flying.  However, we have such an array of uniforms that I could never say...

"Everyone wear white/greys on this give day and BDUs the next.  Were having an inspection!!!"

I am sorry, I know y'all want higher standards...however, there is yet to be one standard to follow.

And, was was said before, most people don't want to maintain a closet of CAP uniforms.

Quote"Everyone wear white/greys on this give day and BDUs the next.  Were having an inspection!!!"

Why not?  We tell cadets, who also have multiple uniform options to do this every week.  Asking officers to wear a particular uniform to a meeting once a quarter is not all that terribly onerous considering they pretty much do what they want the rest of the year. 

QuoteMandating that a squadron CC do quartly inspections does nothing...because the squadron CC should be constantly inspecting and correcting his members.....

I'm pretty sure I said that such things should be going on at all times....So, your contention is that our current system is working fine and that we have an acceptable number of uniform infractions and that those that appear are promptly corrected by the squadron commander or other person in authority? 

As I often am, I am confused. Why all the fuss over scheduling a particular uniform to inspect on a particular night? Get the folks in formation and the inspector would apply the requirements to the particular uniform the person is wearing (along with personal grooming standards if required.)

This way you get inspected every week. There may be several ways of getting someone to wear all the different combos they own, but if they only own one that is the one you get to inspect (although inspecting the polo shirt combo seems to be a fruitless endeavour...)

My two cents is that it is a good idea. For individuals who are not used to reading regs, or may have a problem with interpreting them, inspections are a great training tool.

I suppose I was trying to come up with a happy medium with quarterly inspections.  There are more valuable things that can be done with our CAP time so I thought this would be sufficient for the formal inspections.  For that same reason, I suppose I'm not in favor of regular formations for officers.  We've only got a limited amount of time with them in weeknight meetings (also keep in mind that officers don't meet weekly in all units) and I wouldn't want to use up too much of it with such things every time.   

I am just going to keep on keeping on.  And every time I go for a unit visit I am going to do an inspection and the worse the outcome the more the commander has to hear about it.

Eventually, they will learn to at the very least make sure their folks are squared away when I come around.

I still have one unit that does monthly uniform inspections, they look at whatever appropriate combination the folks have on that day and inspect it accordingly.

There is no reason for us not to be on top of this.  It may never become regulatory but it sure can be a personal sticking point

Oh...where to begin.  Well, let's start with reality.

Most CAP Officers want to serve in the unique manner that CAP Officers; some want youth programs, other flying programs some pure ES and others to help build an organziation in a community.  For most, the Golf Shirt and grey pants can be used for anything.  For others, short sleeve service dress is the universal uniform. Some only own BDUs.  Most only own on set of uniforms...you know, what you wear when it's hot, a jacket for cool weather, a coat for COLD weather and something to fly/UDF in.

Mandated uniform inspections would end up being "toothless tigers" that would spread discontent.

Cadets sign on for CAP for vastly different reasons than CAP Officers, or at least that is what it would seem.  Cadet take an oath that says that they will "wear their uniforms properly," CAP Officers take no such oath and the concept of CAP uniform has been lowered to include a polo shirt and grey pants.

Now, let look at this...

Quote1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

1st  Quarter... 22.95 (top)+ 23.32 (bottom) + 9.50 patrol cap + $ 129.99 = $185.76
2nd Quarter... $188 flight suit + $15.00 fligth cap (use the boots from the BDUs) = $203
3rd Quarter ... Price based on Cadet Free uniform (minus flight cap, with belt, trousers, short sleeve shirt) 45.80 + 59.99 reasonable shoes= $105.49
4th Quarter - Lets assume they cost the same minus the price for footwewar Blue BDUs- $55.77
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits, lets assume same as USAF Flight Suit. $188
6th Quarter - aviator shirt $20
7th Quarter - gray pants $25
8th Quarter - poloshirt $17

That's about $800 not counting shipping, patches and devices; nor cold weather gear, coats jackets, leather jackets, flight jackets and a whole host of other things.  Also, don't recommend surplus stores and the like because not everyone can get the same quality in their area...if at all.

So, shall we call it a cool $1000.

I have been in CAP ten years, collecting uniform items as I go and still I do not have all the combos you mandate up there. 

Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 05:27:49 PMI'm pretty sure I said that such things should be going on at all times....So, your contention is that our current system is working fine and that we have an acceptable number of uniform infractions and that those that appear are promptly corrected by the squadron commander or other person in authority? 

Works fine in all the squadrons I've worked with.  ;D

lordm-- nowhere did I say that I was expecting every member to buy all possible uniform combinations and I don't think I've ever heard anyone do that, so your cost quotes are meaningless. 

The suggested schedule was to account for those who actually do own multiple uniforms.  If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead. 

Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 07:00:42 PM
The suggested schedule was to account for those who actually do own multiple uniforms.  If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead. 

Well, there goes all your significance, inherency and solvency arguments.  I mean, how can you have mandatory inspections of uniform combos on a quarterly schedule of no everyone is going to have the uniforms.

It's STOCK ISSUE time!!!

SIGNIFICANCE- This issue, of uniforms and standards is significant.   However, the idea of a mandatory uniform inspection schedule deemed "mandatory" amid people who do not have to even own the uniforms negates the premise of a uniform inspection and does not significantly address nor slove the proplems mentioned. 

The phrase "If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead." totally robs the whole point of having a significant effect when officers can still choose to wear any uniform other than the one assigned.  (1 of 10 points)

HARMS- It has been shown that having mandatory inspections, if even significant enough as proposed, would require people to purchase all the uniforms necessary to participate.  This is shown to be a figure of over $1000 dollars at least.  The cost incurs more harm/is a disadvantage to the way the system currently works.

Also, the disconent from arbitrary interpretation of the regs from unit to unit is harmful as is the waste of time at meeting to inspect CAP Officers, which unlike cadets, do not have uniform wear as part of their curriculum.(1 of 10 points)

INHERENCY- Since CAP Officers "wear another appropriate uniform instead," this is not a significant change from what already occurs.  No new issue is addressed. (1 of 10 points)

TOPICALITY- This is not even topical, behold this... the problem presented is that individual CAP Officers are not wearing uniforms correctly.  However, this proposal tries to solve the matter by attacking a "group."  Sort of like chopping/burning down a forrest to rid the world of one foul tree.    (3 of 10 points)

SOLVENCY- This proposal fails to solve the matter because it doesn't  attack it in a standardized way.  There is little guarantee that correcting a CAP Offier on Tuesday is going to correct the matter on Friday, especially if the CAP Officer chose not to wear the prescriberuniform on inspeaction night. (3 of 10 points)


8 out of 50 points...

No, the point is to inspect the uniforms that our members actually own and wear.  I'm not seeing how anybody is harmed if one night a small number of people who own one of the "rare" uniforms gets inspected while they don't. 

Did you read that I was NOT proposing that everybody buy every uniform???? 

Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 07:00:42 PM
lordm-- nowhere did I say that I was expecting every member to buy all possible uniform combinations and I don't think I've ever heard anyone do that, so your cost quotes are meaningless. 

The suggested schedule was to account for those who actually do own multiple uniforms.  If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead. 

I did not say nor imply that you were mandating we buy every uniform........I was just saying....if I only own one uniform I will only be inspected once every two years.   What good does that do?

Having said that.  Commanders, unit leaderes and peers SHOULD be inspecting themselves and each other EVERY TIME THEY WEAR THE UNIFORM having formal inspecitons is good....but it is just as easy to look over your people and make sure that those uniforms that need help get the attention they deserve.

Mandating formal inspections just means more useless paper work that has to be tracked and filed.

QuoteI was just saying....if I only own one uniform I will only be inspected once every two years.   What good does that do?

Thats fair.  However, if you only own 1 uniform and it gets through inspection, why would you need to get reinspected every quarter (or every meeting) for that matter?  The only thing that would catch are a few temporary issues like wrinkles, threads, etc. 

I'm just trying to be realistic about this issue.  It is important and deserves some time and attention on the senior side of the house, but not so much that we let it totally distract us from other things.     

Quote from: jaybird512 on July 30, 2008, 06:22:16 AM
I say definitely yes.  If you want to fly for cheap, then you gotta play by the rules.

I agree in playing by the rules, but there is no such thing as flying cheap!!  Every pilot I know spends thousands of dollars a year out of their own pockets to maintain proficiency.   Typical cost for the 182 is now over $100.00 an hour wet.

Flying and Cheap  are mutually exclusive words.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 11:27:05 PM

QuoteI was just saying....if I only own one uniform I will only be inspected once every two years.   What good does that do?

Thats fair.  However, if you only own 1 uniform and it gets through inspection, why would you need to get reinspected every quarter (or every meeting) for that matter?  The only thing that would catch are a few temporary issues like wrinkles, threads, etc. 

Then the whole point of this exercise is to force all units to follow the perscribed inspectionn schedule so you can catch the one guy or two guys who don't know how to wear their blues properly?  I can do that in 20 seconds on any day of the week....and so can you.

If you"mandate" a quarterly inspection schedule...then just like our safey breifings we are going to have to track who and when we conducted said mandated inspections.  More paper work.  And before you claim that there would be no paper work....I'm going to tell you right now...anything that does not require a paper train that can be inspected during an SUI is NOT going to be accomplished.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 11:27:05 PMI'm just trying to be realistic about this issue.  It is important and deserves some time and attention on the senior side of the house, but not so much that we let it totally distract us from other things.     

If you are trying to be realistic.....just approch those guys in your squadron who look like they need help and help them out.  If you are not the commander put pressure on him make uniforms a prioity.  As was stated below why are you trying to punish (add more requirments) the rest of us, because of a few guys who don't follow the rules.

QuoteIf you"mandate" a quarterly inspection schedule...then just like our safey breifings we are going to have to track who and when we conducted said mandated inspections.  More paper work.  And before you claim that there would be no paper work....

Have you forgotten that compliance with the uniform regulations is MANDATORY now and there isn't any paperwork associated with it?  In fact, compliance with the vast majority of CAP regulations are not tracked on paper or by any other means.  Is there a requirement to document that every CAP flight was conducted without anyone lighting up a cigarette (60-1 2-1b)?   

Back when I was a group CC we had a quarterly personnel inspection at commanders call...the whole group staff (including me!) and the squadron commanders got checked.

No records or reports were kept; it was both instructional, and by way of setting a positive example -- because I asked the squadron commanders to do the same thing at least quarterly in their units, an "all hands inspection".

Again, there were no reports, no paperwork. No need: when we did the SUI or SAV
every unit got one or the other annually), when we visited squadrons to conduct or participate in training, when we saw personnel at missions, activities, promotion boards -- it was readily apparent which squadrons gave due attention to proper uniform wear, and which let it slide.

Those squadron commanders who let it slide got counseled by my deputy or me.
Generally improvement followed.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 02, 2008, 01:26:18 AM

QuoteIf you"mandate" a quarterly inspection schedule...then just like our safey breifings we are going to have to track who and when we conducted said mandated inspections.  More paper work.  And before you claim that there would be no paper work....

Have you forgotten that compliance with the uniform regulations is MANDATORY now and there isn't any paperwork associated with it?  In fact, compliance with the vast majority of CAP regulations are not tracked on paper or by any other means.  Is there a requirement to document that every CAP flight was conducted without anyone lighting up a cigarette (60-1 2-1b)?   

Yes...but now you are mandating uniform inspectons on a set schedule with a specific uniform.  That is totally different than saying don't light up in CAP aircraft.

For your idea to work....not only do the inspections have to take place....they must be documented (otherwise how would we know they took place).  Just look at our safety program to see the type of adminstrative over head you are adding.

We are supposed to be safe all the time (just like we are supposed to wear our uniforms properly all the time)....but the safety gods says that once a month a safety breifing must take place (just as you suggest a quartly uniform inspection takes place.).....and everyone who is breifed must be entered into WMU for tracking and compliance varification (as I assume we would have to do with the quarterly uniform inspections).

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2008, 04:35:39 AM
Back when I was a group CC we had a quarterly personnel inspection at commanders call...the whole group staff (including me!) and the squadron commanders got checked.

No records or reports were kept; it was both instructional, and by way of setting a positive example -- because I asked the squadron commanders to do the same thing at least quarterly in their units, an "all hands inspection".

Again, there were no reports, no paperwork. No need: when we did the SUI or SAV
every unit got one or the other annually), when we visited squadrons to conduct or participate in training, when we saw personnel at missions, activities, promotion boards -- it was readily apparent which squadrons gave due attention to proper uniform wear, and which let it slide.

Those squadron commanders who let it slide got counseled by my deputy or me.
Generally improvement followed.

And that is as it should be.  Everytime we wear the uniform we should be "inspecting" ourselves.  And commanders and leaders at the appropriate level should be taking care of buisness.  This does not mean we have to all get into line and do open ranks.   But mandating specific uniforms on a specific schedules is just extra work.

Finally tally, 2/3 of voters favored some version of mandated inspection program. 

Quote from: RiverAux on August 08, 2008, 07:22:32 PM
Finally tally, 2/3 of voters favored some version of mandated inspection program. 

"We'll keep that in mind, Mr. Bailey," said Capt Kirk to the implusive Mr Bailey, "when this becomes a democracy."  -The Corbomire Maneuver

Ah, but should the idea ever be taken seriously, it will approved or disapproved in a democratic fashion...  Getting it to that point is the problem.