I have a member that used to pay the electric and phone bills as his contribution to the sqdn.
I was told by Wing Legal and Finance Yes and during a BS IG investigation No that everything has to go through the Wing Banker eh Hedge Fund, and since then it has been hard to get the bills paid through said hedge fund and our utilities have been disconnected.
The question is for the CAPTALK world is are there any prohibititions against someone paying the bills?
Discuss please
Interesting. So a member is trying to contribute by paying the bills? Are the utilities set up in his name? If not, I wonder if Wing is looking at it like a donation and that is why they say there should be a record.
I would say first Wing Legal/Finance and IG need to get on the same page. If legal and finance gave you the thumbs up I'd say your good to go.
Quote from: flyguync on July 29, 2008, 07:21:45 PM
I have a member that used to pay the electric and phone bills as his contribution to the sqdn.
I was told by Wing Legal and Finance Yes and during a BS IG investigation No that everything has to go through the Wing Banker eh Hedge Fund, and since then it has been hard to get the bills paid through said hedge fund and our utilities have been disconnected.
The question is for the CAPTALK world is are there any prohibititions against someone paying the bills?
Discuss please
1. Assuming your unit has the funds on hand, have the utility bills sent directly to Wing. That should cut down the turn-around time for payment.
2. The IG should quote you chapter and verse of the regs. However, I think this might be some of the auditing rules that don't yet appear in the regs.
Squadrons can't take money and turn it around themselves.
Donations that don't pass through the Squadron, I don't know. Good luck.
Well. First of all, the IG doesn't answer questions like this. That is not what the IG does.
The IG only investigates. If there was an investigation, the result is a report which must cite regulations as to why something is found to be against regulations.
And, the IG cannot make recommendations. The IG only provides facts. Then, a Commander must make a decision based on IG findings. Also, Legal only provides legal advice to the commander. They are not supposed to be making decisions.
The Finance Officer... if they know what is going on, should be able to tell you the straight facts.
Wing Banker doesn't pay bills unless your unit has a recurring expense authorization on file with your Wing authorizing recurring bills to be paid, or you submit a one time request to have them paid. (That would be for each time you want a bill paid.)
Wing banker is just another way to manage your money. It doesn't tell you what you can or cannot do with your money, other than what the regulations already state.
Now, if the member was paying your bills, and then submitting for reimbursement so he/she can get airline miles on their credit card or something, I think that may be an issue. (That's off the top of my head. I would have to verify. But for some reason, that sticks out in my mind... someone feel free to correct me on that if needed...) But, if someone just wants to pay them out of the goodness of their heart, and not ask to be paid back... I don't see what the issue would be.
That's interesting. A member may donate money to the squadron for paying bills like electric/phone etc. However, a record needs to be kept at wing of the donations as it is the wing/cc's responsibility to send out the donation letter.
The money does NOT have to go through the WBP. Only copies of the paid bills/cancelled checks need to be sent up as proof of donation.
BTW, it would be much easier for the squadron finance committee to vote the utilities as a "recurring expense". The member can donate a set sum each month to WB "hedge fund" and the wing will pay the bill automatically. There is no reason why your utilities were not paid.
I'm with Tanker. This isn't an IG issue, and if it is an open IG investigation, why are you discussing it here?
There's nothing in the regs (as i see it) preventing a member from donating in this manner as a function of facilities, directly to the unit. I would guess this is reported in the Contributed Facilities statement at the end of each year, in the section "Contributed Utilities" as part of the facility package therein.
Quote from: desertengineer1 on July 29, 2008, 08:41:12 PM
That's interesting. A member may donate money to the squadron for paying bills like electric/phone etc. However, a record needs to be kept at wing of the donations as it is the wing/cc's responsibility to send out the donation letter.
The money does NOT have to go through the WBP. Only copies of the paid bills/cancelled checks need to be sent up as proof of donation.
BTW, it would be much easier for the squadron finance committee to vote the utilities as a "recurring expense". The member can donate a set sum each month to WB "hedge fund" and the wing will pay the bill automatically. There is no reason why your utilities were not paid.
Yep, that goes into the Unit's statement to Wing - to be reported accordingly. I don't see where the problem is here - other than the IG issue.
As stated, IG's investigate complaints, and they only do it regarding complaints which have merit made by people with standing in the organization. They are not the secret police of CAP.
With that said, there is no issue here. If Joe member wants to pay the light bill, he sends a check with the
statement to the electric company and since there is no longer a bill, no request is ever made to the WBP and its the end of story.
Any tax issues are between the member and the IRS. A tax adviser might tell him his canceled checks are enough, some might not.
Frankly, though, a better solution in terms of keeping things straight would be for the member to simply donate the amount to the unit, the unit gives him a "thank you" letter denoting the amount, and the bills are paid through normal WBP channels.
He could do it either per-month or as a lump sum.
As a side note, IG's do not define or create the program, they are entitled to their opinions like any other member, but if what a commander or unit is doing is within regs and any wing policies, whether an IG like s it or not irrelevant.
I don't know about others, but I am pretty tired of cracks being made about the WBP, especially those that insinuate malfeasance, I can tell you that in my state it is fully-functional and efficient. The only units who have had issues are the ones with dysfunctional FM's or those who refuse to properly work the program.
It is my understanding that said member may continue to pay utilities directly as a donation and not go through the WB. The only things that need to go through the wing bank are funds donated directly to CAP and therefore accountable and squadron deposits of funds (dues, donations, etc.) A person can pay an expense directly without seeking reimbursement from the wing bank, however, if they get audited by IRS, they may have more problems getting IRS to accept it as a donation if the check is made out to the utility company instead of CAP.
Quote from: FW on July 29, 2008, 08:37:28 PM
The money does NOT have to go through the WBP. Only copies of the paid bills/cancelled checks need to be sent up as proof of donation.
Welcome to "Wing Banking". As more than a few people tried to point out at the onset of this program, Units no longer have control of their funds, they are required to turn them over to the Wing and then "request" them back.
CAPR 173-4, 12 May 2008
8. Donation or Bequest of Money. A Donation Receipt is completed when money is donated or bequeathed to CAP. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. Funds received by donation or bequest must be accounted for as required by CAPR 173-1, Financial Procedures and Accounting Report for Units Below Wing Level, and CAPR 173-2, Financial Procedures for CAP Regions and Wings. Units below wing level receiving donations or bequests in excess of $5,000 must notify their wing financial officer and NHQ CAP/FM within 30 days of receipt of the donation or bequest.
Interesting.. I pay my Group and Squadron web hosting, as well as Domain name registration as my donation. I do it direct.
Unit's don't own the buildings they meet in...do they? Thus, the building is a bit of a donation. Thus, if a member pays for utilities in a building that the UNIT does not own, then why is it a matter for the IG or finance?
Please explain this more.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 02, 2008, 05:12:57 PM
Unit's don't own the buildings they meet in...do they? Thus, the building is a bit of a donation. Thus, if a member pays for utilities in a building that the UNIT does not own, then why is it a matter for the IG or finance?
Please explain this more.
Because there are indeed handfuls of Civil Air Patrol members at higher headquarters who enjoy complex administrivia, generated un-needed paperwork and requirements, unintuitive rules, and blindly adhering to the (often poorly written) letter of the law even if it directed you to walk off a cliff.
Quote from: ADCAPer on August 02, 2008, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: FW on July 29, 2008, 08:37:28 PM
The money does NOT have to go through the WBP. Only copies of the paid bills/cancelled checks need to be sent up as proof of donation.
Welcome to "Wing Banking". As more than a few people tried to point out at the onset of this program, Units no longer have control of their funds, they are required to turn them over to the Wing and then "request" them back.
CAPR 173-4, 12 May 2008
8. Donation or Bequest of Money. A Donation Receipt is completed when money is donated or bequeathed to CAP. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. Funds received by donation or bequest must be accounted for as required by CAPR 173-1, Financial Procedures and Accounting Report for Units Below Wing Level, and CAPR 173-2, Financial Procedures for CAP Regions and Wings. Units below wing level receiving donations or bequests in excess of $5,000 must notify their wing financial officer and NHQ CAP/FM within 30 days of receipt of the donation or bequest.
Any member may pay any bill for their unit; out of pocket. The unit has full control of their funds; it is the wing's responsibility to administer them only. The donation paragraph of CAPR 173-4 doesn't change these facts. However, if a member wants to get a tax deduction for the donation, a record of the donation must go to wing/fm for recording, whether or not the money goes through WBP. The important thing to remember is proper record keeping. As I said, it is easier for the member to donate to the squadron and let the wing pay the bills through WBP. The member will get a donation letter for total donation at end of year automatically. However, this procedure is not a requirement.
BTW; CAP/FM has rewritten the finance regulations and combined CAPR 173-1 and 2. It will be out for comments shortly.
^ The WBP was the best thing to happen to FM in a very long time. It saves on headaches and such. At first I was against the program, but have grown fond of it. Heck......reccuring bills are just as easy to pay through the program. If there is a problem a quick 2 minute call to your Wings Finance Officer is all it takes.
However, if your request for payment to others (like rent) is not put in within a reasonable amount of time your payment will be late, and the only person to blame is yourself. WBP is nothing more than taking time for prior planning.
First impression tells me there is more to this than meets the eye. It is possible that the IG is meddling in things outside their scope, but it is highly unlikely. While the degree of experience of wing level IG's varies widely I find it hard to believe that an IG at any level would open an investigation on something of such trivial nature.
I think with the information given the correct answers have been posted.
For convenience, I contract for the broadband internet subscription for my squadron HQ through my company. I'm a consulting engineer so it's easier for me to arrange service and maintain equipment than for the squadron. As described above, the squadron finance committee approves the monthly/annual expenditure and I send my corporate invoice directly to wing with no markup or service fees, with the original invoice from the ISP attached as backup documentation.
I donate a LOT to CAP (as I'm sure most of us do). Had I chosen to donate the internet service I probably would pay for it directly and never ask for a receipt. The total annual cost is less than $600, well below the IRS's radar for corporate charitable deductions.
It's interesting that flyguync's wing is claiming that transactions such as "donated utilities" must go through wing banking. They don't. There is no such regulation. I helped rewrite the Feb 07 editions of CAPR 173-1 and 173-2 to put protections in for the squadrons and to prevent wings from abusing the new system. What we are seeing now across the country is that wing staff don't bother to read the finance regs. They have control of the money, so they're doing whatever they d*mn well please and making up new policies and rules as they go to justify their actions. Hopefully this new rewrite of CAPR 173-1 and 173-2 will include the phrasing that was rejected in in the Feb07 edition: That wings are "may not issue supplements or revisions to these regulations without prior written NHQ approval." The question everyone seems to have forgotten is where is all this promised new donated funding that CAP was going to be eligible for after producing the holy grail of the "unqualified audit report" that the WBP was supposedly needed to achieve? The fact is that CAP reported an unqualified audit in it's 2006 annual report, long before the WBP was implemented nationwide. Fooled us again, I see.
As I posted earlier, nothing forbids a member from paying for something like utilities or a building. It just needs to be recorded accordingly (Contributed Facilities).
REIMBURSEMENT is a different story, and is obviously where WBP comes in.
I was just a meager unit finance officer, but this doesn't look like a complicated issue.
Why do some people make this stuff out to be 10 times harder than it is? (Reference the previous "open books" discussion)
Quote from: ADCAPer on August 02, 2008, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: FW on July 29, 2008, 08:37:28 PM
The money does NOT have to go through the WBP. Only copies of the paid bills/cancelled checks need to be sent up as proof of donation.
Welcome to "Wing Banking". As more than a few people tried to point out at the onset of this program, Units no longer have control of their funds, they are required to turn them over to the Wing and then "request" them back.
CAPR 173-4, 12 May 2008
8. Donation or Bequest of Money. A Donation Receipt is completed when money is donated or bequeathed to CAP. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. Funds received by donation or bequest must be accounted for as required by CAPR 173-1, Financial Procedures and Accounting Report for Units Below Wing Level, and CAPR 173-2, Financial Procedures for CAP Regions and Wings. Units below wing level receiving donations or bequests in excess of $5,000 must notify their wing financial officer and NHQ CAP/FM within 30 days of receipt of the donation or bequest.
Quote from: BlackKnight on August 03, 2008, 04:26:52 AM
The question everyone seems to have forgotten is where is all this promised new donated funding that CAP was going to be eligible for after producing the holy grail of the "unqualified audit report" that the WBP was supposedly needed to achieve? The fact is that CAP reported an unqualified audit in it's 2006 annual report, long before the WBP was implemented nationwide. Fooled us again, I see.
Unfortunately, CAP has
not received an unqualified audit yet. However,
NHQ has received one since 2006. I'm pretty sure we will be "producing the holy grail" with the 2008 audit. :clap:
Once we have the "holy grail" in hand, we can start concentrating more on getting the wing staffs to understand the system better; starting with changing the responsibility of the region/fm. In the meantime, the WFA's help insure the WBP is not being misused used by anyone. And, to date, not one official complaint has been made concerning any wing abusing the system to me or the CAP/FM staff.
Quote from: FW on August 05, 2008, 01:39:03 AM
Unfortunately, CAP has not received an unqualified audit yet. However, NHQ has received one since 2006. I'm pretty sure we will be "producing the holy grail" with the 2008 audit. :clap:
2006 Civil Air Patrol annual report to Congress – located at: http://www.cap.gov/documents/2006_CAP_Annual_Report_To_Congress_lorespdf.pdf
Page 40
Additionally, I am pleased to report CAP has continued to advance in fiscal accountability. For the first time since reorganization of Civil Air Patrol in 1995, outside auditors assessed an "unqualified" audit rating for CAP's annual financial statement in summer 2006.
Signed by Col. Russell D. Hodgkins Jr.
^That can't be right, at least in regards to any effect Wing Banker would have on it - this report is for a year that predates the WBP, and as of today there are still units not fully implemented.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2008, 02:35:22 AM
^That can't be right, at least in regards to any effect Wing Banker would have on it - this report is for a year that predates the WBP, and as of today there are still units not fully implemented.
You might want to reverse your course on this one. This is CAP's annual report to the US Congress, and Col Hodgkins was head of CAP-USAF. It darn well BETTER be right. Else the whole ball of yarn just came unravelled and you're saying CAP lied to the US Congress in their annual report. :o
I don't for a second think CAP or CAP-USAF lied to Congress. The whole sales pitch for the WBP was that it was
necessary so that CAP could achieve an unqualified audit status. I suspect
he who shall not be named conveniently forgot to reveal to the NEC and NB that CAP had already told Congress in writing that they had achieved that status. The majority of the national board apparently liked the idea of getting direct control of all squadron funds, so they bought into the deal and didn't look under the hood or kick the tires.
I don't claim to understand finances for a second, but I do know that when Gen Courter was at our wing/region conference she was very excited that for the first time in FY08 CAP as an organization could get an unqualified audit.
The post above yours says that NHQ received their first unqualified audit in '06 which IIRC is what the Gen was saying.
Anyone else at the GLR conference remember what the Gen said about this during the Sat lunch (just after the garbage bag demonstration)?
Quote from: IceNine on August 05, 2008, 04:51:19 AM
The post above yours says that NHQ received their first unqualified audit in '06 which IIRC is what the Gen was saying.
Ice, Col Hodkgins used "CAP" twice in his statement regarding the unqualified audit. Nowhere did he restrict his statement to apply only to an NHQ audit. USAF Colonels generally don't make those kind of parsing mistakes. Certainly not in formal reports to Congress. ;D
Now, if the good Colonel did make a mistake of that magnitude, it would seem to be a simple matter to ammend the report to correct any misinterpretation - after all it is part of the public/Federal record, and such ammendments are not uncommon. This is not a new issue, and the inconsistency between what is stated in the 2006 annual report compared to the information given to the NB by Gen Pineda and his staff (per NEC and NB published meeting minutes) as to why the WBP was so essential was identified to NHQ soon after the 2006 annual report was published. NHQ remained silent on the issue.
Col. Hodgkin's statement was correct; in that it was the first time CAP had an unqualified audit opinion. HOWEVER, he was not referring to the whole of CAP.
NHQ had it's first unqualified audit in '06. The auditors could not fully account for the units below wing level. This was a significant finding in '06 and to a lesser extent in '07. (The WBP started in FY '06 and expanded to all wings in '07.) With the full implementation of the WBP, we have included almost $4 million dollars in previously unaccounted assets. This represents a significant amount. Now that the WBP is in full effect, CAP/FM is confident we will have a completely unqualified audit for all of CAP.
This is one issue I am intimately familiar with. ;)
Quote from: FW on August 05, 2008, 10:45:14 AM
Col. Hodgkin's statement was correct; in that it was the first time CAP had an unqualified audit opinion. HOWEVER, he was not referring to the whole of CAP.
Okay, I'd like to know where in this report it says that this audit does not apply to the "whole of CAP"?
The report to congress does not mention an unqualified audit; it only gives Col. Hodgkin's quote (I haven't seen the report in awhile so I may be mistaken).
However, if it does, it is wrong. CAP has NEVER had a fully unqualified audit to date.
I should know; I've been dealing with this stuff since Aug. 05.
Congress knows this, the BOG knows this, CAP-USAF knows this, the NEC/NB knows this and now you know this. I don't know what else I can say. These are plain facts.
No spin, no hype and, definitely, no unqualified audit.
Quote from: FW on August 05, 2008, 09:07:51 PM
The report to congress does not mention an unqualified audit; it only gives Col. Hodgkin's quote (I haven't seen the report in awhile so I may be mistaken).
However, if it does, it is wrong. CAP has NEVER had a fully unqualified audit to date.
I should know; I've been dealing with this stuff since Aug. 05.
Congress knows this, the BOG knows this, CAP-USAF knows this, the NEC/NB knows this and now you know this. I don't know what else I can say. These are plain facts.
No spin, no hype and, definitely, no unqualified audit.
You are obviously mistaken.
This is a direct quote from a full page write-up by Col Hodgkins, wihich is on page 40 of the document that is posted on the National Civil Air Patrol web site, which is clearly identified as the "2006 Civil Air Patrol annual report to Congress". It is the only mention of the word "audit" in the entire document.
"
Additionally, I am pleased to report CAP has continued to advance in fiscal accountability. For the first time since reorganization of Civil Air Patrol in 1995, outside auditors assessed an "unqualified" audit rating for CAP's annual financial statement in summer 2006.[/i][/font]"
Now, I'm not sure how you can tell me that "The report to congress does not mention an unqualified audit..." because it's right there in plain black and white. There are no disclaimers, no asterisks to comments, nothing. So anyone who is interested can go to this site and can plainly see a signed statement by the Air Force Colonel who is plainly identified as the CAP-USAF Commander. Now, is he lying, or was he mislead?
You say there is no spin, and no hype, but I spent 20 years in the AF, and I can tell you exactly how many times I put my signature on something that might have been incorrect, or even worse misleading; and that number is exactly 0.
^ hmmm.....that makes me think they lied to Congress.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 05, 2008, 11:42:00 PM
^ hmmm.....that makes me think they lied to Congress.
Certainly appears that way. No AF officer I've ever known would attach their signature to a statement like that if they had any idea that it was wrong, or even if they though that it might be the least bit misleading.
Seems to me that if this was a legitimate mistake that there would be a corrected copy of the annual report submitted with a clarification, and that report, or the retraction of the mistake would be on the web page. Otherwise it just gives the appearance that our entire organizations financial program is a joke. Especially since it's 2008 and we're now trying to get the "unqualified" audit that the Air Force told Congress we got for the first time in 11 years in 2006.
You're going to need to ask Col. Hodgkins about his statement in the report. I'm not going to speak for him. And, I never said his quote was not in the report. I said there is no official statement in the report stating an unqualified audit for CAP, Inc. Take my comments as you like for they won't change the facts.
It is my responsibility, as CAP/NFO, to insure the audit is done and to get the results. I read the audits and understand the details. I do this in conjunction with the Chief Financial Officer of CAP and the Executive Director, the report is forwarded to the BoG. I speak with the auditors at least once each quarter and, at no time did anyone in CAP/FM make any claim of an unqualified audit nor did the CAP/CC, or CAP/EX. No member of the National Finance Committee ever made such a statement, nor has any member of the BoG.
I stand by my previous post. I am not mistaken and we have not yet received an unqualified audit. The Col's quote is a matter of record. Your understanding of the quote is noted however, as someone who knows the facts, I don't read into it as you do.
There isn't anything else I can add to this topic. Any questions you have regarding the annual report to congress can be given to the CAP/EX. That is the office responsible for its content.
^ But that's it Sir! You know the facts, no one here does, nor do the readers of the report. To every person not familiar with the CAP FM side, it appears we received an unqualified audit in 2006.
How we went from Bill Paying to this is puzzling.
Back to bill paying......If a person not associated with CAP decides to pay our electric bill, all he or she needs to do is write the check. If they want to use that as a tax deduction.....they need to write the check to the unit?? Or to Wing HQ? Then do we need to fill out a "fundraiser request"??
A unit CC may accept cash donations up to $4,999.99.
Quote from: 173-4, Page 4
8. Donation or Bequest of Money. A Donation Receipt is completed when money is donated or bequeathed to CAP. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. Funds received by donation or bequest must be accounted for as required by CAPR 173-1, Financial Procedures and Accounting Report for Units Below Wing Level, and CAPR 173-2, Financial Procedures for CAP Regions and Wings. Units below wing level receiving donations or bequests in excess of $5,000 must notify their wing financial officer and NHQ CAP/FM within 30 days of receipt of the donation or bequest.
In this case, if someone wants to pay a bill on our behalf, that is not a donation to the unit, they just paid a bill. The only issue a higher HQ might raise is the continuity of the action and what the unit will do if it ceases. That is a fiscal planning issue.
I still say for all concerned, the best course is a donation to the unit and have the unit write the check through WBP, but its certainly not required, and if its more hassle then its worth, just have the member pay the bill.
With all the above said, a higher HQ >could< direct this unit CC to do things anyway they see fit, as long as that directive itself doesn't violate a reg. If Group or Wing would prefer this be made as a donation to the unit, so be it. That is command authority, not a financial regulation issue.
Not every thing that is good practice for running a unit is in the regs - the only thing you will find there is the minimum required. Just because its not required in a reg, doesn't mean it can't be required by a commander.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 06, 2008, 02:26:05 AM
^ But that's it Sir! You know the facts, no one here does, nor do the readers of the report. To every person not familiar with the CAP FM side, it appears we received an unqualified audit in 2006.
Mikey, that's why I enjoy contributing to CAP-TALK. I have a somewhat different perspective on things.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 06, 2008, 02:26:05 AM
^How we went from Bill Paying to this is puzzling.
Back to bill paying......If a person not associated with CAP decides to pay our electric bill, all he or she needs to do is write the check. If they want to use that as a tax deduction.....they need to write the check to the unit?? Or to Wing HQ? Then do we need to fill out a "fundraiser request"??
Eclipse is correct. NO ONE in CAP should tell a member how to spend their own money. We only deal with the cash deposited in CAP's name. Then those dead presidents heads belong to us. ;D