New item to chew. I have a unit commander comming to me for advice with an application in hand for a member who was once a member 20 years ago and according to those who remember (no paper to track it back that far) he was either 2B or not renewed for cause.
This applicant has applied multiple times in the past 5 years, has often been seen hangingout down town in a CAP uniform in the past and according to the current CC is just plain scary.
The Regs do not say very much about commanders and denying membership. The regs require a Unit Membership committee but don't say much about what they do and how they do it.
I am leaning toward advising the CC to have the committee review the application (which is why I think it exists) and if they are similarly scared by the applicant to recommend denial, then the commander can look the fella right in the eye and tell them the committee said no.
any thoughts?
V/R
Lt J.
Sounds like you have it right.
A quick call to NHQ should confirm if he is eligible for membership, if "no", then no committee is even necessary.
Like promotions (and a lot of other stuff), membership applications require a commander's signature. The unit membership committee can recommend denying membership, but it is ultimately the commander's decision.
No one has the right to be in CAP, and while there are things that you cannot deny membership for (e.g. race or ethnic origin), you can deny it based on previous termination/non-renewal.
One thing about a unit membership committee (which is specified in the regs, but few units actually use): If you review this guy's membership, what about OTHER memberships? IOW, is he getting special (read as "discriminatory") treatment from the unit due to his prior status? If you have a unit membership committee and they review EVERYBODY not just the guy you don't want, you can say "See, we require everybody to appear before the committee..."
(nevermind that the committee may just be a rubber stamp) >:D
We are allowed to discriminate.....just not on the basis of sex, religion, race, national origin, sexual preference or physical disability.
We most certainly can justify a special board for someone we don't "feel good" about.
Membership in CAP is not a right.
Quote from: NavLT on July 23, 2008, 02:27:28 PM
This applicant has applied multiple times in the past 5 years, has often been seen hangingout down town in a CAP uniform in the past and according to the current CC is just plain scary.
You can deny him on this alone. That's a federal crime. TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 33 ยง 702 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000702----000-.html)
The unit cc has the right to determine who is in the unit and who is not. Obviously, complaints can and will be sent to higher HQ who then needs to make a determination on if the cc is correct in his decision. I like that he has taken the initiative to contact you prior to making his final decision.
Here are some things I would want to know when advising the commander on denial of membership.
1. Is the CAPF 2B on file?
2. Can people actually confirm this guy was indeed wearing CAP uniforms or was it an old teeshirt, some kind of thrift store BDU, or something else?
3. What makes this guys scary? Is there documentation, is this hearsay, is it a bad feeling on the part of the members?
4. You mentioned the applicant has applied for membership multiple times for the last several years- why was he turned down? What did he do when he was turned down?
Although I do not think we should make a decision just based off of a bad feeling by many members in the squadron, but we should look into why they are getting this feeling and do some investigating on our own to determine if there really is an issue. From the post, my reaction is to advise the commander to send this guy walking and tell him don't come back next year, but that is all from reading your post (especially the part about trying to apply every year for the last 5 years). Something doesn't quite jive here, but perhaps we are not giving this guy a fair shake and are just listening to the people who don't like him...
With no disrespect intended I have a few suggestions.
If this person has been denied for the past several times regardless of the reason, then when all is said and done he won't be a member. And at some point this appears to me that it is not being handled properly at the unit level. So I would step in.
If this was one of my commanders that came to me and said I or the previous commander(s) have denied this guy several times and it's just not sticking. I would spin up my IG and start some investigation like was he 2b'd or non-renewal? Assuming Nat's didn't say he can't join. I'd have him start asking questions at the unit. Why is he being denied, again is this just a general bad feeling or is there some other factor? Is there documentation of the previous denials?
If all of these things turned towards telling him no. I'd request his presence with the squadron cc and explaing that we are unable to accept his membership, and that he should look in other places. I would also pointedly tell him that reapplying on a regular basis is not going to produce different results and that subsequent attempts will be denied upon receipt.
I would probably make a quick background call to the wing IG and Legal and see if we have the right to use LE support to remove him from meetings should he decide to attend again.
I would shortly after all of this draft a letter explaining what has been and will be done should this issue arise again, I'd send it to wing legal. And file with with all echelons, and by certified letter to this gentlemen's house/
This all could take a month or 2 and this gentlemen would be told that he is not eligible to attend meetings or activites, or otherwise act as a member until a conclusion can be made.
Quote from: IceNine on July 23, 2008, 04:48:27 PM
I would probably make a quick background call to the wing IG and Legal and see if we have the right to use LE support to remove him from meetings should he decide to attend again.
I don't think there is ever a question regarding using LE if someone is at a meeting, member or not, and has been directed to leave.
If they aren't a member its a non-issue, if they are a member, there might be internal ramifications (over whatever is prompting the "through the door or out the window...", but a commander (or his designate) has the right to direct a person to leave.
(Admittedly it'd be a mess for the LEO if a subordinate commander is directing a superior to leave, because likely any leases or occupancy permits on meeting spaces are going to indicate the local commander as the occupant, whereas legally and internally the superior really has the right to tell the subordinate to get out.) >:D
If this person was a member twenty years ago I doubt they have the 2b on file unless it was a very special case as we are only allowed to keep records up to five years after they quit, leave, or 2B.
^ Not neccesarily true for NHQ. They have gotten membership information for some of my members from 10 to 15 years after their membership lapsed. If there was a 2b on file at NHQ, I bet it is still there. I could be wrong though.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 23, 2008, 06:32:43 PM
Quote from: IceNine on July 23, 2008, 04:48:27 PM
I would probably make a quick background call to the wing IG and Legal and see if we have the right to use LE support to remove him from meetings should he decide to attend again.
I don't think there is ever a question regarding using LE if someone is at a meeting, member or not, and has been directed to leave.
Of course not. I know of a unit who threatened LE when a member who was terminated for GSI kept showing up. Of course, then came the command change, and nothing was ever done to prevent that member from again coming back. If you feel LE would be a good choice to remove this guy if necessary, do it. That's what they are there for. Is there a legal reason this member is being denied membership, or is it just a bad feeling by the CC? From reading all the posts, there's a lot to weigh here in making the right call.
GSI? Please explainify.
If you have a full name, check with the membership personnel at NHQ. If he was terminated or is listed as do not renew or allow to join, that will show up on their records.
NAVLt.....you have left all of us in a dark corner. Why has this guy been denied membership 5 times? Why do you consider him scary? Has he done anything you are aware of to warrant a denial?
Let the guy apply, NHQ will run the fingerprint check, and look through their past records. Just because he is "scary" is not reason to deny membership.
And all of those that say convene a membership committee for review.....the big question is.....do you convene a committee for every new prospective member? If the answere is NO.....can you say DISCRIMINATION based on perception, not fact. He can then sue.
Let the guy apply. More likely than not, one current member knows the guy and just doesn't like him. IF there is nothing wrong with this guy, he has every right to join.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 03, 2008, 09:31:57 PMLet the guy apply, NHQ will run the fingerprint check, and look through their past records. Just because he is "scary" is not reason to deny membership.
And all of those that say convene a membership committee for review.....the big question is.....do you convene a committee for every new prospective member? If the answer is NO.....can you say DISCRIMINATION based on perception, not fact. He can then sue.
Let him sue, but he's got no case. CAP's entire membership is at the discretion and pleasure of commanders up the entire chain. We are not, by design, an inclusive organization. As long as the discrimination is not based on age, sex, or ethnicity, there is no issue.
NHQ depends on us as commanders to do the first round of weeding. All NHQ ever knows about a member is whether he was convicted of anything which would bar him from being a member at the most basic level, they never get a "sense" of who the member is, or whether he would be right for CAP (or vice-versa).
If we have a bad feeling about someone, whatever the reason, we don't have to invite them to join the unit. We have a responsibility to the existing members and the organization to keep questionable people out.
^
WOW
I did not know CAP had ALL these hardcores running a club
Maybe folks ought to get to know someone before all that crap goes on. I know there are ALOT of hard feeling in CAP.
"SCARY?????" Has the DHS color flag been heightened?? Is there profiling going on?? Did someone overcharge on their credit cards?? Is that "scary" person a threat to society??
CAP Membership=Uniform Nazizzzz PRICELESSSSSS
Amazing - we're not talking about being exclusive to anyone who walks in the door - please read and address the
actual thread if you're going to make a snide comment that pre-supposes generalizations about the whole organization.
The premise here was someone denied membership five times.
Work from there.
A few years back, I was given the application of a "retired AF Maj Gen" for membership along with a charter application for a squadron to be formed in his town. There was no squadron in that area for over 10 years and, we were quite excited we received these applications; along with 15 cadet applications and 2 other senior member applications.
After doing some research, we found the "2 star" was never in the military and, he and his group were already together as a militant "far right" hate club. Needless to say, the applications were placed in a shredder. A few years later, a squadron was formed in the area with members we all can be happy with.
Moral of story: just say no (thank you).
As I had said at the beginning of the string the individual was at one time a member. He has not been a member for a number of years (what happened there is shrouded in the mists of time). I can say that I (not heard from others) have seen this individual walking around downtown in a CAP uniform (not a close approximation, or a store bought maybe) on at least a half a dozen occasions.
I asked the commander over the weekend what "Scary" meant and it was that his speech and thought tended to wander, His work history has employment never to exceed 3 months for the past 5 years and he lists references such as uncle-Rev Jim no phone, no address.
I have looked at the regs in some detail and they say little about any rights (from CAP) pre Joining. The membership committee advises the commander who makes the final call.
Hopefully that removes anyone from dark corners.
I am personally not for letting everyone in and figuring out if they are a problem after they have damaged the program. I am very well aware of what a national criminal background check shows and what it does not show. There are many people who manage to destroy and hurt that never get caught crossing a legal line, I think that commanders bear a heavy but necessary responsibility to seriously consider any potential member.
Thanks
V/R
LT J.
^ Wow....his speech and thought tend to wander. My speech and thought tend to wonder when I am exhausted and forced past my physical and mental limits. Maybe this guy has a mental disability. Perhaps that was the case, he was forced out years ago because someone was a jackass.
Have you asked the guy why he walks around town in a CAP uniform? What CAP uniform?
Perhaps he does have one or more disabilities, perhaps they inhibit his ability to perform as a member. This program can probably support some disabilities, but people who cannot talk in public or to cadets should be a concern. I would say that a deaf person who "cannot talk to" could be fixed with an interpereter but someone who bables and speaks in appropriately might go beyond acceptable.
I don't know if this is the best place to figure out the laundry list for what can work and what cannot. I would bet any company in the world would tell a public affiars want to be, that has a mental disability that has them shout out inappropriate phrases mid speach that this is not the line of work for them.
And just so I don't get painted as someone against handicaps. I worked for 2 years with a deaf intelligence officer at the pentagon and was proud to serve under the first Ops Section chief in a wheel chair in the VASAR system.
The Blues Uniform with Garrison Cap. Sometimes with Flight Jacket. And no I don't ask why someone wears the uniform in an inappropriate way/place.
A person could have a case if discrimination was made. 5 lawsuits I read some where are currently in court against the Civil Air Patrol. I read one case where 5 people filed a suit against CAP and the court ordered CAP to pay each of them 123,000. Just because CAP is part of the Air Force (Mil) dont mean a person cant file a suit. Im a member of the NRA, the United States Marines went after a lady who was a Lt at the time after she defended her self against a criminal attack by a fellow Marine who broke into her house on base with a knife, this criminal tried to kill her and the Lt's child, she used self defense with her 9mm. She left the Marines however a yr later some high ranking boy decides he wants charges filed against her even after the marine mil police and local police cleared her a yr ago. We filed a suit and we beat the United States Marine Corp in federal court, she was awarded a pile of money. They did wrong. If in a case someone does wrong no matter who they are, they deserve to catch a case in court and lose. In terms dont violate peoples rights.
If they have "valid" evidence and reasons to keep a person out thats good, but if they dont and it proves they did wrong then if they catch a case in the court of law so be it. Our country is great Liberty & JUSTICE for ALL.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2008, 09:49:07 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 03, 2008, 09:31:57 PMLet the guy apply, NHQ will run the fingerprint check, and look through their past records. Just because he is "scary" is not reason to deny membership.
And all of those that say convene a membership committee for review.....the big question is.....do you convene a committee for every new prospective member? If the answer is NO.....can you say DISCRIMINATION based on perception, not fact. He can then sue.
Let him sue, but he's got no case. CAP's entire membership is at the discretion and pleasure of commanders up the entire chain. We are not, by design, an inclusive organization. As long as the discrimination is not based on age, sex, or ethnicity, there is no issue.
NHQ depends on us as commanders to do the first round of weeding. All NHQ ever knows about a member is whether he was convicted of anything which would bar him from being a member at the most basic level, they never get a "sense" of who the member is, or whether he would be right for CAP (or vice-versa).
If we have a bad feeling about someone, whatever the reason, we don't have to invite them to join the unit. We have a responsibility to the existing members and the organization to keep questionable people out.
CAP gets sued all the time, so does the US government, the military, and most major corporations, such are the times in which we live, where embarrassment of a lack of personal responsibility no longer trumps the percentage-chasing lawyers.
In any case involving membership discrimination, they would be suing the corporation, not the USAF (though the USAF is likely to be initially enjoined because of deep pockets).
The legal grounds for discrimination in this country are ethnicity, physical disability, and gender. "Being creepy" is a subjective determination and not protected by law. (In some states and jurisdiction there may also be protection for sexual preference, but I don't think that exists at the federal level yet).
As commanders it is our responsibility to protect the organization and the membership.
I agree lawyers do go after stuff they prolly shouldnt, however I think if something wrong has been done alot of times thats the only way things get changed. Me saying they got sued im just saying that it can and does happen. If the did something in the cases i read about that was wrong then they deserved to pay money out. But again im not one that thinks everyone should file a law suit because your hand itched today and your employer caused your hand to itch lol.
Naming the Marine Corp case i talked about before they really done that Lt wrong. But it wasnt the Marine Corp that did it to her it was a high ranking Marine Corp Officer, but hes a rep of the Marines so the Marines were the one sued. It was also proven in court that this female Lt field a complaint with the Marines against this other Marine anjd she asked for a order for him to stay away from her. She had prior issues with him. The court ruled that the Marines didnt protect her the way they should have. Then when that raning officer pressed for charges against her for defending her self and child she being a NRA member and our NRA filed a federal law suit I think it was. She deserved the money she got. She was a great Marine and had been a Marine for yrs, yet she had an injustice done to her that ended her Marine career all because she chose to survive against a criminal.
But for the most part alot of people sue for some silly things dont they lol.
Folks........
From our squadron we regularly deny or better yet we discourage application for membership from individuals who do not have something to add to the capability of the squadron senior members. If an individual isn't a pilot or used to be a pilot or former military with a background in emergency services or a certified educator or a parent of a cadet we look very closely at what that individual can add to the squadron.
The Civil Air Patrol is not an initial/basic training entry for seniors to emergency services. An Individual simply must have more than availability and a desire to serve the community. Our squadron is located in the middle of nowhere at the intersection of vast and empty. Our group of squadrons is one of the geographically largest in the country with a senior membership of less than a hundred. The majority of our squadron are active USAF members with half or better on deployment. Simply put, we need folks who can be counted upon for emergency services without a great deal of training except for the CAP paperchase.
There is the additional problem of folks who have problems involving minors. We are finding a number of folks who would be attractive potential DOD service members who have had adjudications involving minors and/or alcohol. I know it seems odd that a person could be active service and not be able to pass a CAP background check, but it does happen. Now we ask the questions as the part of the information process to save the individual the embarrassment of being turned down.
Additionally, there are a number of folks who simply don't work or play well with others. Some of these folks are a bit scary in their approach to everyone. Since our squadron works with local emergency services, we need folks who know how to keep our place in the community. Our place in the grand scheme of emergency services to the community and to the nation is changing because of the development of search and rescue services as a for profit corporate contractor to various governmental agencies including DHS & FEMA.........but that is a debate for another day.
73s
Quote from: Cherokeepilot on August 10, 2008, 10:05:58 PM
An Individual simply must have more than availability and a desire to serve the community.
Sure wish you were close enough to send us those people.
Which squadron are you in by the way?
QuoteIf an individual isn't a pilot or used to be a pilot or former military with a background in emergency services or a certified educator or a parent of a cadet we look very closely at what that individual can add to the squadron.
Now don't get me started. So I would be one of those you would have to look closely at then. Well a big &%*^*$& to you then. Show me where CAP senior members are supposed to be pilots/ former military, etc...
It *IS* desire to serve and be a part of CAP, that is the member we are looking for. Why does CAP have all these training req's. Why is there a senior member education path? Because CAP is open to EVERYBODY!
If that is not the most elitist trash I have heard in CAP, I don't know what is.. we'll besides the uniform threads...
(http://www.ielmira.com/images/smilies/twak.gif)
I'll admit, the pilot thing caught me as well, but on a re-read the statements aren't unreasonable.
"Looking closely" doesn't equal a "closed door".
I ask direct questions, too. If a unit only has a flying program for ES (which is a problem), and this member comes in gung-ho with no relate-able experience whatsoever talking about all he's going to "teach the cadets about SAR", I'd be asking questions as well.
Rarely do the creepy ones come in tight and right with no visible baggage. Generally by the 3rd or 4th sentence you can start to get an idea where they are coming from, especially if they are too excited about joining an organization the know nothing about, and/or were a walk-in with no reference.
Too many units suffer from "warm body syndrome" only to pay for it later.
Ask questions, set proper expectations on both sides, and there will be less 1st-year turnover.
It *IS* desire to serve and be a part of CAP, that is the member we are looking for. Why does CAP have all these training req's. Why is there a senior member education path? Because CAP is open to EVERYBODY!
I guess it is the capability to serve that is in question; I would hope that every unit commander uses sound judgement and keeps the missions of the organization in mind when they make membership decisions. Open door does not mean "Y'all come". As to the training regs and senior member training path, I would ask why national has been lately pointing out the large # of members that don't go past level 1 but still are members for 10 to 15 years....... and according to the safety directorate tend to be the ones who dent airplanes.
Too many units suffer from "warm body syndrome" only to pay for it later.
I cannot agree more! The program as it was designed, (and I don't pretend that it fits the mold at the unit level) has no member be assigned to anything until they get a tech rating so they.....actually know something about CAP. But Unit commanders are in a position many times where the warm body becomes the ...ES officer the day they join and they will "learn it as they go". I cannot think of a more undesireable position to be in to be a newbie, given an important job, and being told every day...."thats ok, you'll learn".