According to this big article in the Portland paper, they're developing a "Small Pack Aerial Rescue Kit" for use by CAP aircraft and others that will include radio, food, water, shelter, fire starter, flashlight, a knife that will be dropped to survivors on the ground. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/121151311928910.xml&coll=7&thispage=1
Neat idea!
So yeah, I'm not a pilot or anything, but I thought it was against the FAA regs to drop anything from an aircraft in flight? Are they gonna add this to the SQTR for observers? Task D-0001 - Dropping relief supplies from aircraft to survivors
Interesting concept though.
Hey RiverAux, are you from Oregon?
Its not really prohibited, you just cant do it if it causes a hazard to people or property.
"Boeing Bombs".....
Nope, just have google and yahoo news alerts set up for civil air patrol.
I believe it is prohibited by 60-1 but I think there is an exception of some kind. Sorry, no time to look it up...
Quote from: RiverAux on May 23, 2008, 07:54:44 PM
Nope, just have google and yahoo news alerts set up for civil air patrol.
I believe it is prohibited by 60-1 but I think there is an exception of some kind. Sorry, no time to look it up...
If I recall correctly, it's prohibited except when done to save a life, which it seems this is intended to do.
http://www.paraflite.com/pdfs/_AS-Website_Marketing_PDFs/22-AIR%20DROPPABLE%20SURVIVAL%20KITS/SPARK/SPARK.pdf (http://www.paraflite.com/pdfs/_AS-Website_Marketing_PDFs/22-AIR%20DROPPABLE%20SURVIVAL%20KITS/SPARK/SPARK.pdf)
I know for airdrop training in the Air Force, we could only drop on a desiganated Drop Zone that had been approved by the FAA.
Drop stuff anywhere else and a Dropped Object Report was filled out.
Quote from: PHall on May 24, 2008, 01:01:41 AM
I know for airdrop training in the Air Force, we could only drop on a desiganated Drop Zone that had been approved by the FAA.
Drop stuff anywhere else and a Dropped Object Report was filled out.
Alaska Wing had a mission several years ago to look for a C-130
cargo door that fell off the plane. Don't know if they found it, just remember my Squadron CC telling me about it, and a few months later, one of the pilots on the search visited the unit.
I guess he and the commander were old buddies, even though one lived in Anchorage, and our commander in North Pole.
taken from CAP.gov/answers. Emphasis mine.
CAP does not have any procedures for dropping emergency relief supplies from its light aircraft. CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management, para 2-4, prohibits "dropping of objects unless such action is to prevent loss of life." To exercise the "to prevent loss of life" option, the situation would have to be certifiably critical with no other resource reasonably available. Procedures would have to be developed ad hoc and very carefully briefed. With the ready availability of helicopters, ATVs, etc., the need for such action has not been demonstrated for many years. Hence, for safety and practical reasons, CAP has no light aircraft drop procedures.
My first husband's family were missionaries in Brazil back in the '60's. There wan't anywhere for the mail plane to land, so the pilot devised a bucket method to deliver and pick up mail.
Basiccally he flew in a circle over a clearing and lowered a covered bucket to just above ground level. I don't know the height/diameter ratio, but when the bucket could be reached by someone on the ground, it was almost stationary.
I suppose it had a little spin, but nothing that prevented someone from the village from retreiving the mail packet and replacing it with their out-going.
I'm sure there are pilots around that know how this was done.
Quote from: gistek on May 24, 2008, 04:11:50 PM
My first husband's family were missionaries in Brazil back in the '60's. There wan't anywhere for the mail plane to land, so the pilot devised a bucket method to deliver and pick up mail.
Basiccally he flew in a circle over a clearing and lowered a covered bucket to just above ground level. I don't know the height/diameter ratio, but when the bucket could be reached by someone on the ground, it was almost stationary.
I suppose it had a little spin, but nothing that prevented someone from the village from retreiving the mail packet and replacing it with their out-going.
I'm sure there are pilots around that know how this was done.
It's been done in SF for about 40+ years:
You suspend a loop of rope between two poles aprox. 10' tall and 10' apart. the loop is tied to the payload which shouldn't be more than a pound or two. The plane (must be able to fly low and VERY slow) flies about 20' AGL. A crewmember sits in the rear door with a grapnel hook on the end of 30' of rope. It's VERY important that the rope not be tied to anything and be free running through the hands of the man in the door. The crewmember lets the hook skim about 5' off the ground and snags the loop between the poles. The crewmember pulls the rope, hook, loop, and payload into the aircraft. I've seen it done a couple of times - works pretty good. BTW, the crewmember MUST have a monkey harness on to keep him from sliding out the door - 50-60 knots from about 30' is pretty devistating. ;D
GC
If I recall correctly, a waiver of 60-1 for dropping objects can be approved by National/Ops. In the case of Alaska, I would be willing to bet it has been approved.
"The availability of helicopters..." is not assured in Alaska. The drop can be made safely, since (other than the victims) there is nothing there to hit.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 24, 2008, 05:34:09 PM
If I recall correctly, a waiver of 60-1 for dropping objects can be approved by National/Ops. In the case of Alaska, I would be willing to bet it has been approved.
"The availability of helicopters..." is not assured in Alaska. The drop can be made safely, since (other than the victims) there is nothing there to hit.
Jettisoning something from an aircraft is dangerous for the aircraft, the aircrew, as well as folks on the ground. It should be left to folks who are trained as jumpmasters and are trained/comfortable around open aircraft doors. There's a great number of things that can go wrong, usually spectacularly.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on May 24, 2008, 06:03:03 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 24, 2008, 05:34:09 PM
If I recall correctly, a waiver of 60-1 for dropping objects can be approved by National/Ops. In the case of Alaska, I would be willing to bet it has been approved.
"The availability of helicopters..." is not assured in Alaska. The drop can be made safely, since (other than the victims) there is nothing there to hit.
Jettisoning something from an aircraft is dangerous for the aircraft, the aircrew, as well as folks on the ground. It should be left to folks who are trained as jumpmasters and are trained/comfortable around open aircraft doors. There's a great number of things that can go wrong, usually spectacularly.
GC
Gunner:
The pack they are dropping does not sound big enough to have to open an aircraft door. It probably could be dropped from a window while the aircraft was in a fairly-tight circle. It doesn't sound like any special skill set would be needed. Also, that is Alaska we are talking about, and I think that is how some folks get their mail up there.
QuoteIt probably could be dropped from a window while the aircaft was in a fairly-tight circle.
Assuming the you have a window that opens fully. Not sure that I've seen one on a current CAP aircraft. Certainly the new 182s don't open all the way.
If they ordered the Airvans to NINs specs with the jump door installed etc... you would be all set. ;D
Quote from: RiverAux on May 24, 2008, 08:43:22 PM
QuoteIt probably could be dropped from a window while the aircaft was in a fairly-tight circle.
Assuming the you have a window that opens fully. Not sure that I've seen one on a current CAP aircraft. Certainly the new 182s don't open all the way.
Alaska has a lot of non-standard CAP aircraft, plus a LOT of Alaska Wing guys fly their own planes.
Quote from: MIKE on May 24, 2008, 08:47:11 PM
If they ordered the Airvans to NINs specs with the jump door installed etc... you would be all set. ;D
- The door on the Airvan can be opened in flight (it slides forward). No jump door needed.
- Per the POH, the aircraft is limited to 90kts with the door open.
- I'm comfortable working inside aircraft in flight with the door open (moreso if I'm wearing a rig)
- I am also comfortable working outside aircraft in flight for short periods of time (see the aforementioned requirement for a rig)
- Sounds like just the thing that I need to be helping CAP test :)
Quote from: gistek on May 24, 2008, 04:11:50 PM
My first husband's family were missionaries in Brazil back in the '60's. There wan't anywhere for the mail plane to land, so the pilot devised a bucket method to deliver and pick up mail.
Basiccally he flew in a circle over a clearing and lowered a covered bucket to just above ground level. I don't know the height/diameter ratio, but when the bucket could be reached by someone on the ground, it was almost stationary.
I suppose it had a little spin, but nothing that prevented someone from the village from retreiving the mail packet and replacing it with their out-going.
I'm sure there are pilots around that know how this was done.
I've heard of that. Basically, you fly in a fairly gentle circle and the bucket remains in the middle as you pay out the line. If you're skilled (and the people who do this a lot truly have to be) the bucket winds up "hovering" in basically one spot to the point where it can be landed, the payloads exchanged, and hauled back to the aircraft.
BTW, that device from Paraflite is no more complex than a WDI streamer. Looks like it would fit out a window.
I volunteer to test. I'm quite good at hitting a ground target from an aircraft in flight with a totally ballistic object....
Quote from: NIN on May 24, 2008, 09:48:26 PM
Quote from: MIKE on May 24, 2008, 08:47:11 PM
If they ordered the Airvans to NINs specs with the jump door installed etc... you would be all set. ;D
- The door on the Airvan can be opened in flight (it slides forward). No jump door needed.
- Per the POH, the aircraft is limited to 90kts with the door open.
- I'm comfortable working inside aircraft in flight with the door open (moreso if I'm wearing a rig)
- I am also comfortable working outside aircraft in flight for short periods of time (see the aforementioned requirement for a rig)
- Sounds like just the thing that I need to be helping CAP test :)
100kts w/ the door open (at least that's what my training material says from my GA-8 training). And CAP prohibits us from opening the door in flight right now, unless there's a VERY good reason.
However, doing these drops to get survival gear into victims sure would be a good reason.
Maybe we can drop the ARCHER units while we're at it...
I can sort of see a need for this sort of thing in certain areas of the country. But seeing as how you're probably not going to have one on every plane, you'd have to either return to base to get it or launch another plane to bring it in. Never mind the several hours it would probably take to get someone to approve the action in the first place. In that time, a helicopter can probably make the scene and do the drop anyway.
Quote from: SJFedor on May 25, 2008, 01:31:55 AM
100kts w/ the door open (at least that's what my training material says from my GA-8 training). And CAP prohibits us from opening the door in flight right now, unless there's a VERY good reason.
I'll take your reading of the training material over my faulty remembery of the POH. :)
Quote
However, doing these drops to get survival gear into victims sure would be a good reason.
Maybe we can drop the ARCHER units while we're at it...
Skydive Arizona sponsors a thing called "Junk Day" where they huck all kinds of odd crap out of their Skyvan from 13-14 grand. An old Honda smacking the desert floor at a couple hundred miles per hour is ... magical.
I volunteer to do a 2-way with an Archer system. Just don't expect me to hang onto it come deployment time.
Quote from: NIN on May 24, 2008, 09:48:26 PM
Quote from: MIKE on May 24, 2008, 08:47:11 PM
If they ordered the Airvans to NINs specs with the jump door installed etc... you would be all set. ;D
- The door on the Airvan can be opened in flight (it slides forward). No jump door needed.
- Per the POH, the aircraft is limited to 90kts with the door open.
- I'm comfortable working inside aircraft in flight with the door open (moreso if I'm wearing a rig)
- I am also comfortable working outside aircraft in flight for short periods of time (see the aforementioned requirement for a rig)
- Sounds like just the thing that I need to be helping CAP test :)
I haven't been on the outside of an aircraft (in flight) since Nov '95. The seating is much more comfortable inside. ;D
I'll have to dig up my favorite JM picture - hanging (actually pushing) out the door of a C-130 looking for the drop zone and hanging onto the door jam. I never got a picture of me JM'ing a HALO or HAHO. No matter: the O
2 mask covered up my manly good looks. :-*