http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8962269
This is sad. A student attacked a campus police officer, hitting him in the head with a baseball bat. The 17 year old student was shot by the officer as the student continued trying to hit the officer. Based on the students history, it is most likely a "suicide by cop".
_______________________________
Fresno student killed by cop wanted to die
Garance Burke
Associated Press
Article Launched: 04/17/2008 03:52:48 PM PDT
FRESNO - A 17-year-old high school student who was shot and killed after he attacked a campus police officer with a baseball bat wanted to die that day, authorities said today.
Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer said investigators strongly believe Jesus "Jesse" Carrizales sought out the violent confrontation that led to his death this morning, and called the incident "a case of suicide by cop."
Dyer said there were no prior run-ins between the Roosevelt High School sophomore and Officer Junus Perry, who had been assigned to the school by the police department for the last three years.
But Dyer said officers had cited the teen three years ago for concealing a butcher knife in his backpack while he was still in middle school. Investigators also suspect a 9-inch knife found outside the office building where Carrizales fell to the ground belonged to him.
"It is unfortunate that the officer was put in a position where he had to take a student's life," Dyer told reporters today. "Had he not defended himself there could have been further tragedy."
Perry shot Carrizales after the student surprised the officer from behind and struck him in the head with the crude wooden bat, Dyer said. Police described Carrizales as 6 feet tall and 250 pounds - larger than the officer.
The officer fell down dazed, and reached for the gun in his hip holster, but the clip fell out.
As the student came at him, yelling obscenities and raising the bat above his head, the officer grabbed a secondary weapon - a semiautomatic handgun he carried as backup - from his ankle holster. He fired one round and hit Carrizales in the chest, Dyer said.
The student reportedly died within a few minutes, before paramedics arrived on scene.
Carrizales's family said the officer didn't have to shoot the teen.
"He's the baby of our family, and they took him away," his sister Elisa Ortega, 27, said today outside her mother's modest Fresno home. "They didn't have to kill him. The Taser guns, the batons they have, that should have been enough to calm the situation down."
Ortega said police have refused to tell the family where Carrizales' body is being held while they investigate the shooting.
Carrizales had transferred to Roosevelt High in January, after experiencing a brief depression while he was doing his classwork at home with the help of a district teacher, Ortega said.
His siblings described him as a lighthearted aspiring chef who preferred to play video games with his young cousins rather than take part in adult conversations.
"He was more of a kid himself. He was a momma's boy," said another sister, Irene Ortega, 25. "We just want to know what happened before that incident to see what made him do what police say he did."
At least five students and a probation officer on campus witnessed the incident directly, police said. No one else was injured.
Perry was released from a local hospital after being treated for a 2-inch gash on the right side of his head, Dyer said. He will be placed on administrative leave while the department reviews his conduct in Fresno's fifth officer-involved shooting this year, police said.
As the first bell rang this morning, students hurried to class filing between security guards posted every 100 yards.
A bouquet of red and white roses was strapped to a chain link fence near the spot where Carrizales' died.
"It feels weird to be back on campus," said Chase Hayes, a 16-year-old sophomore. "We still don't know anything about what happened. Everybody was text messaging each other yesterday in class trying to figure out what was going on."
The campus was locked down for several hours Wednesday as detectives interviewed witnesses. An automated system called all parents in the district to notify them of the shooting about three hours after it occurred, and parents received a second message stating that all students and staff were safe an hour later.
Six extra district psychologists were sent to the school today to counsel students and staff, and 16 additional police officers were making rounds in the area.
"We are proud of how our students and staff handled the situation yesterday," said Ruth Quinto, acting superintendent of Fresno Unified School District. "It has been our focus to provide any necessary support."
I've seen this on more than one occasion, fortunately never with me in a position to shoot.
Later, you can usually find a history of depression and suicidal thoughts, but at the time the officer is confronted with a lunatic with a ball bat.
Like I told a lot of other coppers at the coffe shop... if it comes to him dying like he wants, or him killing me, call me "Dr. Kevorkian."
I have been in 3 shootings. Two of which were later determined to have been suicide by cop actions on the part of the suspect. Pretty rare for a career. The first was one month after I got off on my own. The guy began shooting through a closed door, then advanced on me, shooting. He wanted to die, but I think wanted to take a few with him first. Fortunately he went by himself.
The officer only knows someone is trying to kill him. The mental history and everything learned after the fact has no relevance in determining the actions of the officer.
Sad, for all parties involved. However, this is NOT the place to layout our record regarding killing other human beings.
Go post this on some COP forum, or wherever others talk about such things.
This is not the place. MODS.....perhaps a lock, as this is an issue that will make others (including some Cadets) uncomfortable.
If cadets are shocked that a police officer who carries a weapon as a necessary part of his profession sometimes has to use it, those same cadets are prime candidates for the title of "Fastest Psychiatric Casualty" when they get into combat in Iraq, or some other place.
^ We don't need to read about how many people a fellow member killed in his career.
As far as Cadets go, most do not pursue a military career, and actually won't find themselves in the situation of having to take another life.
I would never list my exploits in this area, and doing so is bad form.
I'll weigh in by saying that this is CAP Talk, not Cop Talk... and isn't really relevant to this particular venue.
I would say its relevant since my unit has cadets who attend the school this happened at. Im sorry you think its bad form, however, for some of on this site, its a reality they we deal with on a daily basis. I figured there would be several who wouldn't like this topic. But it maybe something you want to discuss with your cadets. School violence and shootings are increasing and very real. For those of you who are parents, keep in mind why the officer is really on your childs campus. And to the cadets who attend schools where there are campus officers, take this as a dose of reality as to why a police officer patrols the halls of your school while you sit in class. Its because people like this exist. Im not bragging about anything or sharing my "exploits." Im not particularly concerned about whether a guy who wont identify himself "mikey" thinks its bad form. I offered those examples to show it doesnt always happen to "the other guy".
Obviously you thought it was in some way relevant or you wouldn't have posted it. While we all have to be concerned about the safety of our young people and school related shootings are a hot topic, that doesn't mean that because CAP has young people in it, that any topic involving young people belongs here.
Having been raised in a LE home with a 35 year veteran LEO father, I think this is extremely bad form and is very deserving of a lock. It should have been locked for complete lack of relevance to anything CAP when the article was posted but definitely once a LEO member starts discussing the details of a line of duty shooting. Completely inappropriate. You could have left it at the fact that you have been involved in LOD shootings. Most of us can fill in details. We don't need you to describe the situation. To me, that's the poor taste and judgment part.
And really, the tone of your post doesn't indicate the "public service message" that you seem to think it does. It does, however, have the feeling of discussing your "exploits" and that's what makes it inappropriate.
I, too, ask the mods to exercise better judgment and lock this thread.
I think the point Flying Pig was trying to make is we have cadets who could end up as this 17 year old. Unfortunately this type of violence is more and more prevalent. Those that work with cadets need to watch for possible indicators that this could be looming. Just because the vast majority of our cadets are good kids, does not mean that the potential isn't there among a troubled few.
I don't believe flying pig was trying to list exploits. For those of us in law enforcement, to take a life or be involved in shooting is never an "exploit." If you only knew how difficult that decision can be, you would never make such a comment. I know, I've been there. I'm sure flying pig was only offering it as an example of how prevalent this is becoming in society.
The violence among our young people is growing. From the days of fights in "West Side Story" to the indiscriminate use of guns by young people today, the world has changed. If we can keep vigilant on our cadets to not only spot the troubled ones, but offer counsel to our cadets who may be affected, we are doing them a great service. We also need to try to teach our cadets how to respond to a violent situation should they suddenly be thrust into that unfortunate scene.
Again, we in law enforcement do not relish the idea of having to use deadly force and do not have notches on our guns. But we live in a real world.
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 20, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
I'm not particularly concerned about whether a guy who wont identify himself "mikey" thinks its bad form. I offered those examples to show it doesn't always happen to "the other guy".
You could have just posted your original post. I had problems with that to begin with, but that is not why I called you out. I called you out because you started describing instances where you killed other people. That has no relevance here.
As far as remaining anonymous, that is a choice, and has been debated at length before.( I have made myself known to fellow CAPTALK members after I have felt comfortable, I don't know you, and would rather not, in all honesty) Don't try to shift the focus here. You choose to express your involvement in the killing of another human being. In our society, that is something that is not routinely brought up in conversation.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 02:25:28 AMYou choose to express your involvement in the killing of another human being. In our society, that is something that is not routinely brought up in conversation.
Depends on who's in the conversation....
I guess I misjudged the delicacy of my audience. Hold on, Ill find a uniform topic we can discuss at length.
This issue is indicative of the breaking down of old social norms. For many of us, attacking a cop - or anyone else, for that matter - out of the blue, is not something that we would even consider. While most teenagers are pretty well behaved, there is an increasing number of these incidents making the news. To me, it is a continuation of the errosion of respect and anti-establishmentism that exploded in the 60's.
The family unit was not merely a convience, it provided structure and stability to youth. With the deterioration and disintigration of the family, youth are looking for some sort of structure and stability and many are not finding it in a positive model.
Did anyone find it odd that a parole/probation officer was on site to witness this? What kind of a neighborhood was this? Is this a high-crime school?
Neither Flying Pig's first post which include the article about this incident, nor his follow up post in which he relates his involvement in duty-related shootings indicate that he has posted them with anything in mind that has to do with cadets, their safety or a the current trend in violence among young people.
The facts are these:
1. No one who knows a LEO or has one as a close family member thinks that the majority of police officers use any kind of force, let alone lethal force, lightly.
2. Flying Pig's first two posts have nothing to do with anything about CAP cadets, teaching them safety, monitoring their mental health or any other such topic. This lack of any connection to CAP makes it difficult to see why the article and his response about his own experiences were posted at all.
3. If FP felt it necessary to mention that he himself had been involved in LOD shootings as a point of discourse on the subject of increasing violence as a trend in the US, it was still not necessary to give details of a particular shooting.
4. While the use of force and instances of violence may be something that many who post to this forum deal with in their lines of work every day, this is not the place to discuss such things. This is not an LE forum, nor is it a forum on LOD use of force in the LE field.
5. If Flying Pig was using this as a spring board for discussion about the well-being of cadets, why not say so in his original post or in his first follow up. Instead, he chose to wait until people began to object and then to defend his postings by becoming, well...defensive.
6. If there are cadets from Flying Pig's squadron who attend the school involved in this shooting, do they need to hear about his having shot someone or the details of the events leading to him having to employ lethal force. The answer is a resounding "No." Discussions of the use of LOD lethal force is subject matter for CISM settings or LE forums. Not a forum having to do with the Civil Air Patrol.
7. If these details were shared for the reasons he states, why plop this down in the general discussion "Lobby" instead of placing it somewhere and giving it a discussion starting tag like "How violence affects CAP cadets?" I repeat that there is nothing in his first two posts which indicates why this was posted or how he saw that it had anything to do with CAP. This is where others, including myself, saw it as inappropriate and in bad taste. And yes, I do question the motivations and discretion of a LEO who feels it necessary to discuss his LOD activities in seemingly random forums. It is easy to see why this seems like a discussion of on the job "action" rather than a discussion that used an article relating an instance of violence involving a young person as a spring board for discussion about cadet safety.
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 20, 2008, 06:14:13 AM
Did anyone find it odd that a parole/probation officer was on site to witness this? What kind of a neighborhood was this? Is this a high-crime school?
Probably.
The officer, working a school, not only had his service pistol but took the precaution of having a concealed backup weapon.
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 20, 2008, 10:50:11 AM
Neither Flying Pig's first post which include the article about this incident, nor his follow up post in which he relates his involvement in duty-related shootings indicate that he has posted them with anything in mind that has to do with cadets, their safety or a the current trend in violence among young people.
The facts are these:
1. No one who knows a LEO or has one as a close family member thinks that the majority of police officers use any kind of force, let alone lethal force, lightly.
2. Flying Pig's first two posts have nothing to do with anything about CAP cadets, teaching them safety, monitoring their mental health or any other such topic. This lack of any connection to CAP makes it difficult to see why the article and his response about his own experiences were posted at all.
3. If FP felt it necessary to mention that he himself had been involved in LOD shootings as a point of discourse on the subject of increasing violence as a trend in the US, it was still not necessary to give details of a particular shooting.
4. While the use of force and instances of violence may be something that many who post to this forum deal with in their lines of work every day, this is not the place to discuss such things. This is not an LE forum, nor is it a forum on LOD use of force in the LE field.
5. If Flying Pig was using this as a spring board for discussion about the well-being of cadets, why not say so in his original post or in his first follow up. Instead, he chose to wait until people began to object and then to defend his postings by becoming, well...defensive.
6. If there are cadets from Flying Pig's squadron who attend the school involved in this shooting, do they need to hear about his having shot someone or the details of the events leading to him having to employ lethal force. The answer is a resounding "No." Discussions of the use of LOD lethal force is subject matter for CISM settings or LE forums. Not a forum having to do with the Civil Air Patrol.
7. If these details were shared for the reasons he states, why plop this down in the general discussion "Lobby" instead of placing it somewhere and giving it a discussion starting tag like "How violence affects CAP cadets?" I repeat that there is nothing in his first two posts which indicates why this was posted or how he saw that it had anything to do with CAP. This is where others, including myself, saw it as inappropriate and in bad taste. And yes, I do question the motivations and discretion of a LEO who feels it necessary to discuss his LOD activities in seemingly random forums. It is easy to see why this seems like a discussion of on the job "action" rather than a discussion that used an article relating an instance of violence involving a young person as a spring board for discussion about cadet safety.
If you do not believe that school shootings, violence at school, and teen suicides are issues that cadets think about, you have not talked to your cadets recently.
This forum is sort of like the O-Club bar. If somebody wants to talk about something, fine. Let him talk. If you don't want to listen, fine. Talk to somebody else.
Flying Pig is a brother officer. By brother officer, I mean he is both a brother police officer and a brother CAP officer. I know what it is like to see violent death, and to have someone currently alive in your gunsight. If he wants to talk to his friends about it, I'm willing to listen. Like I said... I've been there, too.
If you, or anybody else is uncomfortable with that, there are plenty of other issues to discuss, and plenty of others willing to discuss them.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 19, 2008, 11:33:38 PM
Sad, for all parties involved. However, this is NOT the place to layout our record regarding killing other human beings.
Go post this on some COP forum, or wherever others talk about such things.
This is not the place. MODS.....perhaps a lock, as this is an issue that will make others (including some Cadets) uncomfortable.
I disagree. The Lobby is a place where we are invited to "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board. Get to know one another, chat with other CAPers, and field topics not covered elsewhere."
Flying Pig was sharing his thoughts on a matter of some interest to him. Calling for for a block is nothing more than censorship.
Personally I think some CAP Talk users just don't like cops.
As some of you are aware, I am more of a "lurker" than a contributor these days, but I feel compelled to say something. I look at some of these posts and note that civililty, courtesy and common decency are sadly missing.
I suggest that you consider how you would react to some of your words, if they were coming in the opposite direction.
As a member of CAP Talk, Civil Air Patrol and a Cop, I don't think there is anything wrong with posting this article or even discussing here on CAP Talk. I remember as a cadet when a woman was stabbed on a city bus and no one did anything except for an off-duty cop with an off-duty gun who was driving by when the bus stopped and killed the guy; we had a moral leadership discussion about it in my squadron with our chaplain.
Jokes, crime, nasty neighbors; yep, I've started a few threads myself that don't have any direct relevance to CAP, but what the hay. VA Tech incident last year didn't have much to do with CAP but I'm sure there were several pages of discussion on CAP Talk about it.
My vote = nothing wrong with it. We've got IT guys, military members and photographers that discuss their jobs, why can't a cop discuss theirs?
^ Hey agree with you Kirt, but I don't agree with discussing how many people you killed in your job.
As far as Johny K stated earlier that this is like the Club, I agree to. However, I would be the first guy to walk over to other officers and ask them to leave the Club if they started going into details about who they killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.
As far as the comment about some of us here not liking COPS, I will be the first to admit I don't like SOME COPS that I have met in my life. I do respect them though, for putting their life at risk everyday.
Like I said before, I had no problem with the original article posted by Flying Pig, but I did have a problem with his following post.
I agree with Flying Pig. This kind of post is necessary in todays world. We work with young people and act as their role models. Any topic that affects the safety of those young people should be a fair topic for comment.
Further, just because Flying Pig gave a personal example about suicide by cop, does not indicate to me that he was trying to brag about his expoits. On the contrary I think it was considerate of him to share actual knowledge that most likely is a painful memory for him.
There are many things posted on this forum that are not directly CAP related, but nobody gets offended. However, bring up legitimate law enforcement activities and they are suddenly deemed offensive. There seems to be an undercurrent among some here, that at times, seem to have anti-law enforcement/anti-military bent. I respect different opinions among our members on these subjects. However, I do not think a call for a ban on the opinions of those that differ with you is in order.
^ Once again, I could care less about the original article posted by Flying Pig. I do care about his following post where he said he killed other people. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO make everyone aware of your killing of other people.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 04:29:06 PMHowever, I would be the first guy to walk over to other officers and ask them to leave the Club if they started going into details about who they killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.
I think there is a difference here though. It's not like Flying Pig was gloating or saying something like
"yeah, and when I wasted those guys", he was using it as an example. Same thing with your description at the O Club. If a couple of officers were bragging about taking out bad guys or comparing head shots, then I may agree with your argument.
It can also be chalked up as a way of dealing with it. And for that, I'd listen all day long in any venue, on CAP Talk, the phone, text message, whatever helps. Who knows. I understand your argument, but I don't think in this case it was bad form.
^ OK, maybe I am overreacting.
I give up.
So I could not careless about the who other argument here, but did any one else notice these statements:
Quote
The officer fell down dazed, and reached for the gun in his hip holster, but the clip fell out.
As having handled many pistols in my life and having a father as a cop, this kind of bothers me that a police department has a gun that the clip just falls out. Any one know if this is a defect in the pistol? Officer error? Or failure to maintain the weapon?
Quote
Carrizales's family said the officer didn't have to shoot the teen.
"He's the baby of our family, and they took him away," his sister Elisa Ortega, 27, said today outside her mother's modest Fresno home. "They didn't have to kill him. The Taser guns, the batons they have, that should have been enough to calm the situation down."
Okay, when I was in High School many moons ago now, we had an officer that worked just the high school. She carried a what every other officer carried: pistol, pepper spray, and collapsable baton. Now, I am not saying the officer was not justified in shooting, on the contrary, he was. However, could this have been handled better with pepper spray, a baton, or a traser? Not knowing the demographics of this high school, should the high school officers be allowed to carry a pistol? A backup pistol?
QuoteOrtega said police have refused to tell the family where Carrizales' body is being held while they investigate the shooting.
I also find this kind of sad. I mean, they refuse to tell the family where their boy is being held? Did they at least allow the family to view the body?
Quote"We still don't know anything about what happened. Everybody was text messaging each other yesterday in class trying to figure out what was going on."
What has happened to high school these days? Geez, if we would have had cell phones and text messaging like today, I am sure the teachers would not have allowed them.
Quote from: Whocares on April 20, 2008, 04:52:11 PM
So I could not careless about the who other argument here, but did any one else notice these statements:
Quote
The officer fell down dazed, and reached for the gun in his hip holster, but the clip fell out.
As having handled many pistols in my life and having a father as a cop, this kind of bothers me that a police department has a gun that the clip just falls out. Any one know if this is a defect in the pistol? Officer error? Or failure to maintain the weapon?
I don't like to
Monday morning quarterback without hearing it from the officer himself, but I'm
guessing the mag release may have been inadvertantly hit when fumbling (dazed) for his gun. I've seen worse things happen that make me cringe; and that's just on the range.
I was gonna try and stay out of this one, but....
the facts are this:
1) the officer had a split second to make a decision when another person was clearly causing them harm/attempting to kill them
2) the officer reacted in the best way that he thought appropriate.
The kid already had the officer down from the first hit. a baton wouldn't be too effective while you're on the ground, and pepper spray might work, but might not. a taser would have been good, but not all officers in all departments carry them. some departments only allow supervisors to carry the tasers, others, everyone carries them.
He made a tough decision, and the outcome sucked, but at that point, it was the officer or the person trying to kill him.
Quote from: SJFedor on April 20, 2008, 05:04:05 PM
pepper spray might work, but might not. a taser would have been good, but not all officers in all departments carry them. some departments only allow supervisors to carry the tasers, others, everyone carries them.
He made a tough decision, and the outcome sucked, but at that point, it was the officer or the person trying to kill him.
Okay, may be you misread me. I was not condeming the officer. He was fully justified and right in shooting him.
But, looking at the board picture, should school cops be carrying tasers? Should they even have a real weapon on them? After all, there are some universities that the campus officers do not even carry a real weapon, they only carry a taser.
What I was trying to do with this question is:
1) Get the topic back on
2) See what cadets think about their safety in their schools
3) See what cadets think about police in their schools
The article goes into very little REAL detail. Like was the Campus COP (rental cop from what I understand) uniformed. Did he start the altercation? Was there prior incidents between the people. What is this bat the kid supposedly had. It could have been a stick for all we know. By the time the cop got his second weapon of his leg, I am sure he could have also got pepper spray out??
This has nothing to do with CAP, or CAP Cadets. How does this article help CAP Cadets out? Seriously, how does it.....someone needs to explain that to me. At most I will accept that the story says to CAP Cadets.....stay away from Campus Cops.
IT does not go into what warning signs to look for, or what to do in similar situations.
I am shocked, that no other students helped the Campus COP out. I am also surprised that they brought into play the kids prior of Carrying a knife years ago. The media is really good at vilifying individuals.
No one here knows the kid, or the Campus Cop. Until someone from that school comes on board and says something to the difference, I am skeptical of the whole situation. What really makes me skeptical is that the body has yet to be released? You have to ask yourself why!
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 05:32:37 PMThis has nothing to do with CAP, or CAP Cadets. How does this article help CAP Cadets out? Seriously, how does it.....someone needs to explain that to me. At most I will accept that the story says to CAP Cadets.....stay away from Campus Cops.
This is the lobby, pretty much any discussion goes as long as it's done respectfully and doesn't violate any CAP Talk policies.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4801.0;attach=1858)
^ The original poster and his supporters said this article helps cadets out and that is why it was posted. All I want to know is how it helps Cadets out?!?! That was their reasoning for posting it. I know the lobby is for threads not directly related to the other areas on CAPTALK. :-*
Ding... Thread done.