I was thinkig about this the other day as I was taking my cadets down to the local university to do their OPSEC training. With everything going to computer based and internet based, I can see CAP turning into an organization for the priviledged and the underpriviledged will be left out.
Everyone does not have access to the internet and many people young and old do not know how to manipulate it. I talk to parents that did not know they had to go online to order uniforms and even thouigh they know they dont know how to do it. Then with the upcomming deal about cadets taking exams online, I fear many of my cadets wont do it. Many of them do not have email addreses. They use their parents.
I really see this as a problem that needs to be addressed. I realize that CAP wants to cut costs and go to a paprless organization, but that desnt work in all communities.
I really don't see it that way. Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots. A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...
Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.
If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.
I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue. It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.
Indeed its a problem, I have asked our cadets (out of curiosity) how often they use the computer for CAP self study and readings outside of squadron time and many of them either said A) they don't know how, B) they don't have a computer at home C) and if they do know how and don't have a computer at home, then they don't have enough time to use the library or school PC lab's computers for CAP work with enough homework they have.
Our squadron has 8 computers upstairs in a classroom, several downstairs in various places. we have an average of 15-20 cadets on a given night, to have them all using the PC at the same time is JUST not going to happen unless we have a bigger facility or we redesign the classrom to accomodate more computers which I don't think the squadron is going to go for that anyhow.
As a personnel officer I have 2 other jobs I cannot do OPSEC training every month nor every week. I have gotten 15 out of probably 30 active cadets OPSEC qualified and I have told the DCC she needs to find a cadet who can/will do routine OPSEC training for new cadets after April 1st. I don't know how they expect me to have to do it all, I do not have a problem helping them do it as it is my job to make sure they know how to do it and that it gets done.
If we are truly going paperless then I guess all those bare tables the cadets are sitting at in the upstairs classroom shall have computers on them along with the computers being on the tables along the classroom walls.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 14, 2008, 01:01:15 PM
I really don't see it that way. Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots. A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...
Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.
If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.
I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue. It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.
Sure there will always be a paper method of submitting reports/documents. Infact paper is still required for personnel files. For example: many wings will accept an CAPF 2a electronically with e/signature but you also have to place this stuff in the squadron files and personnel files so if we are truly going paperless I see a bit of a problem with this.
I don't mind the paper files, having a hard copy for total failure of the system is a good backup or if for some reason your squadron ends up getting cut off from the internet you still have a backup of most recent records (provided it is kept up to date).
But the fact of the matter is, we have several forms that can be generated electronically, filled out electronically, SENT electronically, printed anywhere it is, the next person can print it they can have hard copies all they want yet for inspection we have to maintain hard copies of these forms in our squadron form files.
It wasn't until recently that you could enter cadet modules/milestones, may mission/ES/Aircraft and vehicle data have to be entered online routinely as well so I'm not sure where the paper trail stops or begins because for much of what we do online there is still a paper trail needed.
Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account. For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ.
While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home. It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.
Quote from: Pylon on February 14, 2008, 01:44:41 PM
Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account. For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ.
While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home. It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.
Our squadron has high speed internet, thats why we have 25+ computers connected to our network regularly. If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there. So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...
Its like this... we have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer, I go to Eservices, push some buttons, turn around and fax/mail/email whatever to the PDO up at wing and wait for him to do his thing and he sends it back to me... I'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a!
BTW most senior members have access to our hangar, they are more than welcome to go there on their own or call me/email me when they want to do something and want some guidance and I'll be there (same with cadets, except they do not have free access to the hangar) but none bother so I don't.
Quote from: Pylon on February 14, 2008, 01:44:41 PM
Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account. For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ.
While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home. It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.
Earthlink account does my unit no good. No phone connections available to us.
I need a darn Edge or similar data card.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PM
If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there. So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...
Perhaps I worded it poorly. We rarely do it
for the member; you're more than right - I already wear enough hats. Take for example the CAPT 116/117, OPSEC, CPPT Pre-Test, etc... We don't obviously
do it for members without computers at home, but I will provide them access at the squadron and get them situated.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 14, 2008, 01:01:15 PM
I really don't see it that way. Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots. A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...
Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.
If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.
I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue. It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.
Ok, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.
Also, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?
Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.
Quote from: Pylon on February 14, 2008, 01:44:41 PM
Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account. For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ.
While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home. It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.
No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer. But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.
Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.
Quote from: Pylon on February 14, 2008, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PM
If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there. So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...
Perhaps I worded it poorly. We rarely do it for the member; you're more than right - I already wear enough hats. Take for example the CAPT 116/117, OPSEC, CPPT Pre-Test, etc... We don't obviously do it for members without computers at home, but I will provide them access at the squadron and get them situated.
Yeah sorry can't see behind the words, but I know what you mean and I agree with you.
Our squadron routinely makes PCs available for members to use other than meeting nights, cadets included provided there is a senior member available. None have bothered to take advantage of that though.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:12:50 PM
Quote from: Pylon on February 14, 2008, 01:44:41 PM
Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account. For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ.
While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home. It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.
No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer. But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.
Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.
I'm not sure if each commander gets issued a laptop is even true, I know each SQD does though.
parents giving out their kids SSN doesn't hold much water these days, if their kid (or they want their kids) to get involved in federally funded programs they HAVE to give their SSNs its not an option (even public school, medical, whatever). Although I know some places that GIVE the option to use an SSN (still) and that is my community college, you can opt to not use your SSN but when you want funding or tax benefits, and so on then the game is on... you need your SSN.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:04:48 PM
Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.
I'm not, that's why there are multiple methods being said here. Library, Friend's house, squadron access, home access, public wi-fi, at school, etc.
So I suppose that if a cadet was homeless, had no friends, lived in an area that didn't have a library, parent was unwilling/unable to bring them somewhere, was in a squadron that didn't have access and didn't attend school then they wouldn't be able to participate. But neither would the cadet who's family moved to Uganda and didn't have electricity but still wanted to participate.
As for the uniform thing, you might have 36 cadets (we have almost 50 now and I input their uniforms and a job too) but all 36 didn't show up at the same time. You probably have a maximum of 2 per month - if that, it's not as big a deal as your making out to be. If you really don't have one minute per month, delegate it to your supply guy to measure the cadets that can't order it themselves, then it's only 15 seconds for you to approve them.
I realize cadets are children they can't be expected to do everything, but if they really want to excel in their CP why the heck don't they do what the have to do (although I am sure there are SOME that do) to get access to a PC? The chief complaint I hear from the DCC is... "we don't have time to do all the activities a cadet needs to do" "we need more separate classrooms to do testing and lectures at the same time"
basically I'm left with either once every other month that the computers are usable by cadets in the cadet classroom because they are not having a lecture and when they are computers can't be used... something is wrong with that picture.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PMWe have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer.
If the member is eligible for a duty promotion, that is, he's doing it through time-in-grade, professional development and the whole nine yards, then a CAPF2 (not a 2a) isn't required. This can be done through e-services under a restricted permission called "Membership - Duty Promotions" You're listed as a squadron WSA therefore you can assign this permission to yourself and, as a squadron personnel officer, you should do exactly that. If, on the other hand, it's a promotion through mission skills, professional appointment and so on then, yes, a CAPF2 must be prepared. It can be done using e-signatures; simply fill it out then pass it on your commander. He then forwards it to wing to the wing personnel officer where it will go up to the awards and promotion committee. This is for captain or higher. For lieutenants, the commander can sign and forward it directly to National; don't send the CAPF2 to wing as they don't need it. Not in your wing anyway.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PMI'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a!
The member isn't responsible for submitting the request (RE: CAPR 35-5 Para 8b).
Quote from: Camas on February 14, 2008, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PMWe have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer.
If the member is eligible for a duty promotion, that is, he's doing it through time-in-grade, professional development and the whole nine yards, then a CAPF2 (not a 2a) isn't required. This can be done through e-services under a restricted permission called "Membership - Duty Promotions" You're listed as a squadron WSA therefore you can assign this permission to yourself and, as a squadron personnel officer, you should do exactly that. If, on the other hand, it's a promotion through mission skills, professional appointment and so on then, yes, a CAPF2 must be prepared. It can be done using e-signatures; simply fill it out then pass it on your commander. He then forwards it to wing to the wing personnel officer where it will go up to the awards and promotion committee. This is for captain or higher. For lieutenants, the commander can sign and forward it directly to National; don't send the CAPF2 to wing as they don't need it. Not in your wing anyway.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 02:09:06 PMI'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a!
The member isn't responsible for submitting the request (RE: CAPR 35-5 Para 8b).
I should have worded it more clearly: the member is responsible to "initiate" the request and pass that request TO me otherwise A) I won't know he is eligible for promotions B) if he really wants to be promoted I think he ought to?
You are right, the member is not responsible to do the actual request/send it up the COC (Chain of Command).
BTW my bad (CAPF2 not 2a, 2a is awards stuff) F2 is promotions and duty assignments.
For captains, he still has to get wing's signature in addition to me pressing a bunch of buttons on EServices. All I am saying is the member needs to fill out a F2 with his information/request and pass it to me nothing more nothing less.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 14, 2008, 01:01:15 PM
I really don't see it that way. Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots. A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...
Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.
If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.
I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue. It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.
Ok, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.
Also, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?
Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.
So everyone pile into a van one meeting night per month and head to the library for "E-services night". We have little to NO control over someone's family life, but the fact is that it still has to get done.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 05:13:06 PM
I should have worded it more clearly: the member is responsible to "initiate" the request and pass that request TO me otherwise A) I won't know he is eligible for promotions B) if he really wants to be promoted I think he ought to?
Off-topic, but I disagree. Personnel staff should know what senior members need for their next promotion and in conjunction with the PD staff, encourage them to complete requirements for the subsequent level. Squadron staff should also be well aware when a member becomes eligible for promotion.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 05:13:06 PMFor captains, he still has to get wing's signature in addition to me pressing a bunch of buttons on EServices. All I am saying is the member needs to fill out a F2 with his information/request and pass it to me nothing more nothing less.
No CAPF 2 necessary at any point in the process for a duty performance promotion. Personnel or Commander request the promotion to Captain in E-Services. Squadron Commander approves and it goes to the Group Commander's E-Services account for approval. Group CC signs off, and it pops up in the Wing Commander's approval list. When approved, the member is instantly changed to "Capt" in E-Services and a new membership card is triggered. A print out of the E-Services record showing the new grade is sufficient proof for personnel records. Record the date of grade on the CAPF 45. Voila. :)
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:04:48 PMOk, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.
As DCC, you used to have to review and sign the FCU chit on the CAPF 15 before sending it in. Currently on E-Services you still need to login and approve FCU requests from cadets. I don't see what the difference is? As DCC, you are steward of the FCUs, it's a duty and we deal with it.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:12:50 PM
No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer.
Your commander was not issued a laptop. Your squadron was. Your commander may be taking care of the laptop, but it is for use of the squadron; it's not meant to be a personal gift to commanders to simply keep at home. Your commander really ought to be bringing it to meetings. If your squadron doesn't think they need it, then return it to wing and let another squadron who needs a second laptop have that opportunity.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:12:50 PM
But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.
So you don't do everyone's OPSEC on the same night. Would you let 36 cadets use the bathroom at the same time? I think with the leaders that you're mentoring and guiding, that the cadet leaders could come up with a workable plan to get everybody the minimum necessary time on the laptop. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. Nobody said managing a Civil Air Patrol squadron was supposed to be easy, that there wouldn't be logitical or administrative nightmares sometimes, or that everything would be setup, figured out and provided for you.
There are certain expectations that running a CAP squadron will require a minimum level of effort, creative thinking and yes, money. How you obtain those resources is up to you.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:12:50 PM
Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.
A lot of parents don't like paying for membership dues, uniform items, or activities fees. But guess what? If they don't, their child can't participate in the program to the fullest. Makes sense, right?
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:04:48 PMAlso, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?
It would seem to me that this family then would not have the time to get their child to CAP meetings, functions and special activities either. If their life schedules were indeed that packed, they may not be good candidates for the Cadet Program at that time.
As was mentioned above, there are dozens of options. Libraries, access at the squadron meetings, friends' homes, school, cafes, and more. An average cadet does not need to be on the computer even once a month to participate in CAP. They need to be on it about 4 or 5 times total, really. OPSEC, FCU, CAPT 116/117, CPPT if they turn 18. I think they can figure it out, if we're instructing enterprising leaders.
Folks: I realize that most of the posters here are young and work with cadets. I think that you have a good handle on what they need and, in some cases, how to solve the problem.
Turn your attention briefly to the seniors(or officers as some like to call us). We were not born to computers, we didn't likely even see a computer until we passed 50 yrs of age, we have never had any training in the blasted things and they befuddle us. Now, you expect us to use the strange things to do classes and tests? Some of our older folks do not have computers and will never have one. Those who do usually fall into a couple of groups: they have taken on the technology and can use it: they have a computer in their house, but only the wife or adult children ever use it; they check their email once a week or maybe once a month, but that is the sum total of their usage of a computer.
I happen to be able to do email(as some of you can attest) and I can usually get into eServices(with some difficulty), but that pretty much denotes my knowledge and ability. If I have to do something more complex, I go to some of my younger, more computer-literate friends and try to get stuff done.
Please note that some of us older folks live quite a distance from a library or a Squadron, so just running down to do something on a machine that we are strangers with isn't a real solution.
OK: I have run on long enough on a subject that probably won't be solved anytime soon. I have been in CAP 15 yrs and have heard this mantra about going paperless for all of that time. I won't hold my breath.
Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out. I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).
But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.
Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.
And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway. I am happy to help if they ask for it. My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files. The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.
but anyway... thats that.
We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2008, 01:56:46 AM
We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.
I highly, highly recommend reading completely through the new CAPP 52-15 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf) It has great tips for seniors in bottom-heavy cadet squadrons. I also can't stress enough the importance and benefit you'd derive from taking a TLC (http://www.cap.gov/tlc) in your position; I'd place it above priority for any other PD course you might take next, if you can find one near you.
Your airmen
can take on responsibilities. It's a willingness of the senior members to give them some of those duties, and train them properly, that can be the barrier.
Again, as I said before, nobody said administrating and running a CAP squadron would be easy or set up for you. It can often be very, very difficult. But that is our challenge to overcome, and our challenge to share with our cadet leaders. As a principle of our cadet program, we do
not rely on crutches and complaints.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out. I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).
The Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer and Squadron Activities Officer would work with the Cadet Commander to determine the level of cadet involvement in planning and execution of each activity. If you feel cadets can take on a greater role, speak with the Deputy Commander for Cadets.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.
Your statement makes no sense; sorry. Our cadet program is entirely separate from the ES/Senior Member side. That doesn't mean that our cadets don't plan their own training activities, or participate in the ES activities, or anything. The split composite squadron, in fact, is not an excuse for any deficiency at all. Ever.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.
I feel bad for your cadets. I have a Personnel Officer for Cadets, because of that reason. My regular Personnel Officer refuses to do much for cadet records. If you're familiar at all with the Cadet Program, you'd realize that maintaining weekly records is vital to the CP. Attendance Records, CPFT scores, examination/testing scores, drill test results, promotions, community service/recruiting recording, moral leadership participation, and
ad infinitum are all important to tracking each of my cadets' personnel records. What does that mean? My Personnel Officer needs to be there most every night. As DCC, I may sign promotions and affirm what's been tracked in SIMS (http://www.squadroncommand.com/filemgmt/viewcat.php?cid=6), but I can't act as Personnel Officer and record the myriad of things which
must be tracked for the squadron to meet the regulations. It's too bad you don't help out your Cadet Program. Perhaps someday a fellow member could train you on that.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway. I am happy to help if they ask for it. My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files. The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.
but anyway... thats that.
Uhm... Didn't understand any of that last paragraph. Learn to use computers for what's needed, like you learn how to perform any other duty in Civil Air Patrol, or instead find a duty which suits you better. Cheers...
Quote from: Pylon on February 15, 2008, 03:37:23 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2008, 01:56:46 AM
We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.
I highly, highly recommend reading completely through the new CAPP 52-15 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf) It has great tips for seniors in bottom-heavy cadet squadrons. I also can't stress enough the importance and benefit you'd derive from taking a TLC (http://www.cap.gov/tlc) in your position; I'd place it above priority for any other PD course you might take next, if you can find one near you.
Your airmen can take on responsibilities. It's a willingness of the senior members to give them some of those duties, and train them properly, that can be the barrier.
Again, as I said before, nobody said administrating and running a CAP squadron would be easy or set up for you. It can often be very, very difficult. But that is our challenge to overcome, and our challenge to share with our cadet leaders. As a principle of our cadet program, we do not rely on crutches and complaints.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out. I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).
The Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer and Squadron Activities Officer would work with the Cadet Commander to determine the level of cadet involvement in planning and execution of each activity. If you feel cadets can take on a greater role, speak with the Deputy Commander for Cadets.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.
Your statement makes no sense; sorry. Our cadet program is entirely separate from the ES/Senior Member side. That doesn't mean that our cadets don't plan their own training activities, or participate in the ES activities, or anything. The split composite squadron, in fact, is not an excuse for any deficiency at all. Ever.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.
I feel bad for your cadets. I have a Personnel Officer for Cadets, because of that reason. My regular Personnel Officer refuses to do much for cadet records. If you're familiar at all with the Cadet Program, you'd realize that maintaining weekly records is vital to the CP. Attendance Records, CPFT scores, examination/testing scores, drill test results, promotions, community service/recruiting recording, moral leadership participation, and ad infinitum are all important to tracking each of my cadets' personnel records. What does that mean? My Personnel Officer needs to be there most every night. As DCC, I may sign promotions and affirm what's been tracked in SIMS (http://www.squadroncommand.com/filemgmt/viewcat.php?cid=6), but I can't act as Personnel Officer and record the myriad of things which must be tracked for the squadron to meet the regulations. It's too bad you don't help out your Cadet Program. Perhaps someday a fellow member could train you on that.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 14, 2008, 08:23:04 PM
And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway. I am happy to help if they ask for it. My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files. The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.
but anyway... thats that.
Uhm... Didn't understand any of that last paragraph. Learn to use computers for what's needed, like you learn how to perform any other duty in Civil Air Patrol, or instead find a duty which suits you better. Cheers...
I'm not going to try to break up the quotes so I'll reply in order.
First, I have no idea what the cadets are capable of, in my opinion I think they are capable of more. The DCC does not, problem solved I am not in charge end of story moving on.
Do I want to help the CP? Yes, and I have and do on occassion, I am not on the refusal bandwagon. Can I help the CP, that depends on what is involved in addition to my current duties which have higher priority. The DCC does the personnel work or has cadet sponsors help out with that stuff.
I apologize if I don't make any sense, I try my thoughts have to be more constructed as I type them (hence my many ways of editing). I don't disagree that CP and senior programs are separate, they both have different requirements that does not mean a "composite" squadron needs to be "divided" as in seniors cannot function with cadets very well atm even though both programs run concurrently on the same night the cadets and seniors start and end the meeting together and all that only takes 45 minutes total the rest of the time the seniors/cadets are set apart.
I agree squadron management is NOT easy for those wearing multiple hats they will know this first hand.
Getting cadets to be somewhat self sufficient WOULD be better (same for the senior members), it isn't always possible and that is understandable and one would need take that into consideration and come up with a compromise that is beneficial in the long run for those who can and can't in the end they move along a bit smoother and help the clock work keep going smoothly in the squadron (sure its not perfect, and there will be kinks in the system here and there) but things can move down the path sooner is all I am saying.
So with all the resources we have, they need to be using it a bit more often that is all I ask. I don't expect them to use it 100% of the time, and right now they will only use it IF they have to and someone is telling them they have to (OPSEC, CPPT, CAPT116, etc)
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 14, 2008, 03:12:50 PMPlus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.
NHQ already has the SSAN from the membership app. They just use it for verification when starting the account. It is never used on the account after that.
Senior citizens (civilians, not "senior members"!) quite commonly learn to use computer applications in their 70s & 80s.
Most of the 'cadet airmen' you folks have mentioned are more computer literate by far than the average CAP officer! Put them in front of the machine, point them at the right web site, and get out of the way! (But do look over their shoulders from time to time to monitor their work....keeps them on their toes!) Also keeps you out of hot water!)
Computers are not going away; they are virtually a necessity today in administering a large organization....given that each squadron and group has at minimum a laptop, printer, and dialup account, perhaps we need to start seeing this as an opportunity for personnel who might otherwise not be able to learn about this world of information technology, rather than viewing it as an obstacle.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 15, 2008, 06:56:56 AM
Senior citizens (civilians, not "senior members"!) quite commonly learn to use computer applications in their 70s & 80s.
Most of the 'cadet airmen' you folks have mentioned are more computer literate by far than the average CAP officer! Put them in front of the machine, point them at the right web site, and get out of the way! (But do look over their shoulders from time to time to monitor their work....keeps them on their toes!) Also keeps you out of hot water!)
Computers are not going away; they are virtually a necessity today in administering a large organization....given that each squadron and group has at minimum a laptop, printer, and dialup account, perhaps we need to start seeing this as an opportunity for personnel who might otherwise not be able to learn about this world of information technology, rather than viewing it as an obstacle.
Well said! :) Yes we have some senior citizens/members 70+ who actually do quite fine on a computer, sure they aren't as quick or geeky as those who are 10-40 years old but so what! If they can do it, let them do it!
I like computers as much as I hate the results sometimes. I will embrace computers, they facinate me :). There IS a solution to solve cadet issues with going to bad websites, it isn't 100% foolproof and requires yet MORE maintenance and work but I think it is WORTH it especially if it is free.
www.opendns.org if you have a large network like our squadron THIS site will benefit you a lot! I have also seen hardware apperatus that do similar white/blacklisting of websites (almost as if it is a firewall in itself, but a dedicated hardware that does just this sort of stuff) it isn't cheap for the hardware but there are corporations that use it (and schools I am sure).
OpenDNS is a nice way to do it, you can manage multiple IPs too. I will be using this for my squadron eventually.
Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century. It's time folks learned to use the computer. They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.
So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email. Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.
Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.
Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel. I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper. It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained. There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.
Quote from: davedove on February 15, 2008, 12:33:03 PM
Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century. It's time folks learned to use the computer. They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.
So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email. Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.
Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.
Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel. I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper. It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained. There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.
Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2008, 03:27:06 PM
Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.
It's not an elitist attitude, at all. It's realistic. Will we turn away volunteers because they don't have a computer (for whatever reason)? Nope. But they won't be able to participate at the fullest levels of the organization; that's just a fact of life and it goes along with everything else Civil Air Patrol does.
Some volunteers won't be able to afford the gear necessary to become a Ground Team member. It doesn't mean that we turn them away, but they simply can't participate in Civil Air Patrol to its fullest. This isn't elitist, but it
is a fact of Civil Air Patrol that in order to participate in CAP fully, you'll need some funds and you'll need certain resources. Not everybody can do that, but they still can serve Civil Air Patrol in other capacities. The member who doesn't know how to use or can't afford a computer can still perform a number of functions, just in the same way as the member who can't afford Ground Team gear or isn't capable of driving a CAP vehicle or flying a CAP plane.
So to recap, just so we're crystal clear: Will we turn away members because of lack of certain skills or personal funds? Nope. But doing a lot of things in Civil Air Patrol requires money or certain skill sets and CAP can't provide for everyone for free.
Quote from: davedove on February 15, 2008, 12:33:03 PM
Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century. It's time folks learned to use the computer. They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.
So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email. Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.
Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.
Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel. I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper. It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained. There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.
I you are right, it doesn't say it has to be paper, it will ASSUME it is because the manual was written on paper was it not? So I would assume it was written for paper in mind, that being said there will be references that some forms shall be "typed" and you can accomplish this by using electronic forms no problem! :)
However, it would be foolish to not have a paper personnel file, you don't know when one day you will not have electricity for a week and the only thing you will be able to rely on is those personnel paper files. And AFAIK the SUI will look for those paper files at least here in ORWG.
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2008, 03:27:06 PM
Quote from: davedove on February 15, 2008, 12:33:03 PM
Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century. It's time folks learned to use the computer. They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.
So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email. Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.
Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.
Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel. I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper. It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained. There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.
Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.
Granted I agree, you can buy a cheap modern computer for $500.00, that is a lot of money for a lot of people especially if they are on the federal/state low income poverty line. I know of parents who would shake their head at you if they had to spend $500.00 on a decent computer (that is at least it comes with windows XP, a DVDROM/burner, a 100GB HDD and at least a 2GHz CPU).
It isn't that hard to go get training on how to use a computer, go to the senior computer club (if you are a senior citizen) go to the college, get training from your fellow squadron IT guy. If you are a cadet, take computer classes... it is YOUR future! Heck, by the time I graduated high school 2 credits of computer classes were required for the graduating class of 1999 and on to even graduate.
Change is scary, can hurt, but you should do at least the minimum to embrace it you are not required to embrace it fully but at least some to do something about it.
This is not a new issue. It's been around for decades with ref to uniforms & annual dues. We do everything we can to mitigate, but it's not something we can get rid of. Look at ES. A GTL spend may spend hundreds in gas on an AFAM. Maybe they get it back if they do some paperwork & wait around a while. That doesn't cover gear or most trng. Pilots are ten times worse. Even with the recent advent of fuel cards, they still spend during AFAMs, and much much more to stay current.
Like I said, we do what we can to mitigate the effects. We send computers to units. If your unit is in this situation, then you need to make sure your Wg knows that & prioritizes you for computer issue. Most units also get mbrs to donate older systems & network them up. The cost of internet isn't insane. You should be able to get a cheaper mil/govt/non-profit rate from a provider. Maybe someone has an aircard or something at home that they can bring to mtgs. I know that's not a perfect solution, but it's the best we can do.
Quote from: mynetdude on February 19, 2008, 06:22:46 PM
However, it would be foolish to not have a paper personnel file, you don't know when one day you will not have electricity for a week and the only thing you will be able to rely on is those personnel paper files. And AFAIK the SUI will look for those paper files at least here in ORWG.
There's a lot of truth to that statement. There has to be some way to access important records under less than ideal conditions. And, one of our missions is disaster relief, when it is very possible that operations could be ongoing for some time without power.
i certainly don't want to sound elitist about this issue, but we do live in the computer age. There are some people who don't have access to computers or the internet, so allowances will have to made for them. But we can't hold up the development of CAP to accomodate them.
I'm viewing this issue with my experience of working for the Army for over twenty years. Whenever some new equipment, procedure, or requirement is introduced, so often the first response of most is to immediately protest that the new things don't apply to them, instead of looking to how their organization could benefit from it.
I will grant that change is not always for the best, but we all do need to understand that change will happen. It can't be stopped.